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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:20 PM
Original message
The role of women in Mormonism
http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

Many religions have recently begun changing in an attempt to equalize the roles and responsibilities of men and women. Mormonism is one of the exceptions. The Mormon position on women has changed little since the early 1800's, when the official view was that "woman's primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband" (McConkie 844). This attitude, coupled with the doctrine of polygamy and the absolute power claimed by the men of the church, created a legacy of profound sexism which modern Mormonism has been unable to escape.

Mormonism has created an ingenious system of oppression, in which opposition towards men is tantamount to arguing with God. The Mormon religion makes no distinction between clergy and laity, at least with regard to men (Laake 9). All Mormon men are ordained as members of the "priesthood," with the absolute authority to preach the gospel, bestow blessings, prophecy, perform healings and baptisms, and generally speak for God. "Their priesthood gives them the right to advise and instruct the Saints (i.e., Mormons), and their jurisdiction extends over all things spiritual and temporal" (Snowden 134).


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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Magic underwear washing?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Cults don't change much.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. interesting.
it seems to be a difficult religion to be a member of. church 2x a day on sundays -- no coffee or chocolate or anything with caffeine.

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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Smith was clearly out of his gourd
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 06:43 PM by wuushew
And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.


http://www.ineedcoffee.com/08/mormons-coffee/

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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It says no "hot drinks," but they certainly drink their fair share of hot chocolate and Pero. nt
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. but doesn't hot chocolate
have caffeine?
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes. And Coke and Pepsi have far more. But that doesn't stop Mormons from
drinking them. Only coffee and tea are officially against the rules. Coke and Pepsi are kind of frowned on by the strictest Mormons, but drinking them isn't forbidden. Chocolate isn't even frowned on.

I've known Mormons (like my brother) who have actually gone through caffeine withdrawals when they've stopped drinking caffeinated soft drinks.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. thank you for that information.
my mom and sister lived in salt lake for 2 years. my mom said that people were always asking for recipes that used carob. i guess they were the strict ones.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Really? I've never heard of that.
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 06:31 PM by Herdin_Cats
I've never met a Mormon so strict they won't eat chocolate and in four years of release-time seminary and 23 years of Primary and Sunday school lessons, I never heard any church leader say anything about chocolate or its caffeine content. (Coke and Pepsi, yes, definitely. Chocolate, no.) I've lived in both Salt Lake and rural Utah. Brownies and chocolate chip cookies are practically a sacrament, requirements at ward dinners and funerals.(Along with the high-calorie "funeral potatoes." Yummy!)

Maybe these carob-eaters were health nuts. I've known health nuts (both Mormon and non-Mormon) who ate carob rather than chocolate. But now that people know about the antioxidants in chocolate, I don't see that anymore.

It's just that I honestly can't imagine all these Mormons around me without their chocolate. They need some kind of indulgence, or they'll explode. It would be frightening.


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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. it was probably the health nuts.
for a few years, i substituted carob for chocolate. i made some pretty good carob brownies and carob chip cookies. i kept carob chips in my drawer at the office. i was pretty strict about what i ate. now i eat chocolate in moderation.

my mom did say that mormons ate a lot of sweets, especially the kids. my niece was around 4 back then and all her little friends were mormon.

they spent 2 years there -- my mom, my sis and brother in law and the 2 kids. they moved there because of my brother in law's job, but they hated it. my sister and brother in law liked to go out to dinner and weekends and have a few drinks -- not a lot of people to do that with. they took a big loss on their house, but they couldn't wait to go back to south carolina. go figure -- new yorkers who love SC.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. along with the ubiquitous green jello
Brownies and chocolate chip cookies are practically a sacrament, requirements at ward dinners and funerals.(Along with the high-calorie "funeral potatoes." Yummy!)

Oh my heck! :rofl:

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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. LOL
That's quite the jello mold!
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. *Every* herb??
I'm surprised Mormons aren't all stoned out of their gourds then! I do know that so-called "Mormon tea" contains ephedra, which is a far stronger stimulant than caffeine. Decent treatment for asthma, though, in the days before more modern meds were developed.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No chocolate?! Somebody better tell the Mormons about that.
That might help my mom with her diet, come to think of it.
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. so they're gonna reverse roe v wade
and us girls are going to have to go back to underwear washing, barefoot and pregnant and unable to speak?

I can only imagine if mcSame dies in office what our lives would be like. well, that's assuming a lot, isn't it? We'll all be nuked if he gets into office, so maybe I'm worrying about nuthin'.

where can I sign up?
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elfin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. A MUST read for all --
Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith by Martha Beck


An amazing book. The author is brilliant and eccentric, but her story rings true to me because I have a dear bright, funny friend who is a Mormon and I still cannot fathom why she doesn't ditch this weird regimen. And regimen as opposed to "religion" is what I mean. It is a way of life with its own rules and regs apart from the ultra strange foundations of the "faith".

The personal story of the author is but one part of the book - the rest details the lives of non-fundie Mormons, which will aptly describe the Romney approach to life.

At times Beck's observations are hilarious as when she returns to Provo from Harvard with her Mormon husband and Down's Syndrome baby and observes that all around her are blue-eyed, fair people who are so happy and helpful that they make the Von Trapp family seem like Hell's Angels.

A fun -- and scary -- read.

It illuminated several aspects of my friend -- but will never understand her.

She is Liberal, yet toes the line for her church, while charming all around her with her intelligence, good works in the secular community and good cheer.
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. We don't know Romney's going to be picked yet.... nt
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Either way, what the OP posted says a lot about Romney.
And none of it is good.

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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Absolutely! nt
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eshfemme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. Mormons basically institutionalize women as breeders of the family.
Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 07:28 PM by eshfemme
My dad's a Republican who voted twice for Bush (in a great victory for me, he has since admitted that he was wrong and claimed that he will vote with the rest of the family as Democrats) and is also a Mormon. Mormonism is basically chauvinism religionized. Once a boy hits 13 years of age, he is considered a priest, albeit of junior rank whereas all women, regardless of age, are considered simple parishioners. At best, they are allowed to be missionaries but all women are a generic "Sister" while a man can be a "Brother" or an "Elder."

Mormons also have Temples, which allow only men entry to the inner sanctums-- women are absolutely treated as "visitors" regardless of whether or not they are Mormon. On their first visit to a Temple, a man is given a secret name (does this sound familiar? It's basically a grown-up crazy version of the "Boys Only, No Girls Allowed" clubs boys like to make when they're small) and they all dress up in special robes and crap like that. It's all very mysterious since as a woman, I don't have any idea what they get up to in there. :eyes:

As a girl who happened to be a tomboy and liked being one, it was horrible to grow up with a Mormon dad who made you go to the church. My dad personally didn't enforce anything but the church certainly did put lots of pressure to try to mold me and my sisters into their ideal of a perfect Mormon woman. Their religion is horribly gender-coded. To see a woman wear pants was highly irregular (I only remember seeing one parishioner who did this regularly and I remember being told when I asked why formal pants couldn't be worn by girls that skirts and dresses were the only right way for females to "show respect to God"). After puberty, the Sunday Schools were segregated by gender with an additional Boys Scouts and Girl Scouts knock-offs. The goals for the Girl Scouts were extreme throwbacks to the Suzy Homemaker era where you were awarded points or rewards like necklaces for doing things like knitting and sewing. I know because I tried to game the system (I'd already grown quite cynical about the church by then) by seeing if I could earn a free necklace by doing stuff that wasn't entirely against my principles or things I didn't enjoy (like making a fucking prairie dress). But in my perusal of the activities that I could do to earn a stupid freebie, there wasn't enough that were generic enough that I could do without giving into that gender-coding. The Boy Scouts knockoff had suitably "masculine" activities like survival techniques and crap, which I was far more interested in but was prohibited from participating in. As a woman, you are basically encouraged to stay home and be fruitful.

Secondly, despite their claims to be an offshoot of Christianity, they don't refer to the Bible at all-- they mainly rely on their own "original scriptures" which are the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. Most of the time, if Jesus or the Holy Spirit is mentioned, it is a platitude for when they give their "testimonials" or pray. What is more important to them is the worship of Joseph Smith, the founder of the religion and their "true prophet," as well as the president of their church whom they believe to have the power of prophecy as well despite the fact that the Mormon president is chosen through a strict line of hierarchy that depends on seniority rather than holiness. And c'mon, even the fucking Pope doesn't deign to be a prophet of God, which all Mormon LDS Presidents claim to be despite the prophecies of past presidents proven false. Yes, every year, all the Mormons congregate to listen to the annual prophecies of the LDS President.

Also, although my source of information might be biased, their doctrines are too inconstant to actually be relied upon-- at least with other religions, they have dogmas or certain principles that won't be changed. The Mormon church has believed in many theories that have then been covertly switched out over the years like they were fads. Examples of this are the "Adam is God" belief, the invalidated Native Americans are Jews who migrated to America (or some shit like that) theory, Color is the result of your pre-life before being born into this life (this might still be valid within the church but not actually spoken of to outsiders) and of course, the infamous "A virtuous man earns multiple wives" practice, which is still in practice by sects and is offered as a Heavenly reward by the LDS (I remember asking why they abolished this practice if they believe in this as a tenet and I was given some BS answer of how they observe state laws as well as church law. I remember thinking, well it certainly doesn't stop a lot of the other religions from protesting the crap they do like the pro-lifers and anti-gay activists) and all kinds of other messed up shit.

Personal Disclosure: I was raised in the church until my sisters and I were sufficiently old enough to raise a ruckus against our dad forcing us to go to church. Reason being that being raised in an environment where there was constant pressure to act a certain way in NYC, where it is hard to be controlled when you have such a plethora of choices, makes it hard to be brainwashed without reason. It took until last year before my father would stop harassing us about it and that's because I finally told him one hair-raising story about our experience in the church that he never knew about. Before, we'd still have people from the church calling or writing us while we were away at college, which was certainly stalkerrific. Please note that for the most part, I am talking about the Church of Latter Day Saints, which is the "mainstream" sect of Mormons that people think of and not the more radical sect, which are the infamous child-abusing polygamists.

PS My experiences were in a church that was located in the liberal New York City. Imagine if it were set in Utah where something like 95% of people are Mormons-- the pressure there would be nothing like the pressure I faced. I had a on-Mormon teacher who visited Utah before and came back to comment, "For once in my life, I understood what it felt like to be a minority."
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. i was raised catholic.
went to catholic school. they taught from a catechism. i didn't see a bible till i stayed in a hotel. i was 18. i stopped going to church when i was 16. that's when i finished school and got a job. inasmuch i was giving my mother money i had enough power to refuse going to church.
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. All of which only puts them...
....several centuries ahead of the way women are regarded by those who practice Islam.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yep. The worst thing about it is that the women believe it's all true.
And it hurts to believe that you're shit in the eyes of God. I believed it for the first 23 years of my life. There's a reason Mormon women lead the nation in anti-depressant use.

Leaving the church was a far better anti-depressant than the Elavil, Prozac, Zoloft, or Effexor that I had tried. Go figure.
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. Yeah, and they don't treat their dogs very good either.
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