Why are people blindly siding with Russia right now

[AllentownJake]

The situation is complex and has fault on both sides but it appears that everyone thinks Russia is behaving rightly and Georgia and the US wrongly.

Just curious.

[Romulox]

1. Hey--Anybody But Bush! nt

[AllentownJake]

3. Ahh John McCain syndrome that went on till this year

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...without realizing no the enemy of your enemy is still your enemy.

[seemslikeadream]

2. We need a new (old) enemy

The old (new) enemy is getting stale





REBUILDING AMERICA'S DEFENSES



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf








.

[dbonds]

4. Actually we have more invested in Georgia. but...

I'm happy to not take a side. With Bushco at the helm I don't trust anything they do. Just wait this one out.

[Jack Rabbit]

12. Even if Bush tries to do the "right" thing (whatever it may be)

. . . he'll fuck up royal.

And who would trust a dry drunk who's been on a weekend mo ti binge?

[Bob Dobbs]

5. Nobody is siding with Russia.

But the israeli/amerikkkan "advisors" to Georgia did start the whole thing.

[renie408]

7. Hey, can you point me somewhere where I can get some less biased background on this whole thing?

I have been listening to NPR and the news, but they are pretty useless. And most of the stuff that I came up with this morning really sounded like it had a dog in the fight. At this point, I am thinking that each side is splitting the 'bad' pretty evenly. Or is that about accurate??

[Bob Dobbs]

17. Various "other" background sources

The Real Aggressors
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9788

Jewish Georgian minister: Thanks to Israeli training, we're fending off Russia
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1010187.html

Did U.S., Israel Provocateur S. Ossetia Conflict?
http://www.infowars.com/?p=3860

Israel Linked To Georgia Security
http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=19903046&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8

[malaise]

51. Try Russia Today, BBC or German TV DW n/t

[Redbear]

6. I haven't gotten that impression at all.

Most talk I have heard is of the "Never trust the Russians" variety. Georgia wants a truce and the Russians want to keep fighting.

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Because the Bushies are siding with Georgia

It sounds like there's planty of blame to go around and too much for just either Russia or Georgia.

I'm for peace. Now. Stop fighting. Stop bombing. Act like adults.

[atreides1]

9. Who do you side with and why?

There were at least as many when this started who were "blindly" siding with Georgia, and yet the complexity of the situation was just the same, with faulst on both sides.

Georgia underestimated what the Russian reaction would be and now they're paying for it in blood. Russia is not without blame, but they didn't strike the first physical blow this time.

[Phoonzang]

10. Because they defy Bush and alot of people here think

the "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Those people would be fools of course. Russia is not Iran. Russia is not Iraq. Russia is not N. Korea. Unlike those three, Russia is actually an dangerous, expansionistic empire that threatens world stability. They will use their military power and actually have WMDs.

Just saying "who cares" isn't good enough in this situation. I guess the Bush admin has cried wolf so much, people don't have concern when it comes to a true "rogue nation".

[Not the Only One]

14. Yep

Russia looks at the Axis of Evil and says, "Wait, the US is scared of those three countries? We'll show the US what a real country can do." Russia is in a position to do all the things that the other three have been accused of or have actually done, but on steroids. The Russians are an equal to us. They can't be taken over in two weeks like Iraq. I don't blame the Russians for using the playbook Bush gave them.

[Phoonzang]

22. If we actually wanted to stop them, we've used up

all of our political capital f'ing with the "Axis of Evil". Well that's besides the whole threat of nuclear war part....

[Clear Blue Sky]

39. What can we actually do to stop Russia, short of going to war with them?

And if we don't stop them, what's to keep them from invading some other former Soviet Republics?

Bad situation without great solutions.

[Blue_Roses]

61. well said and the best post so far tonight

:thumbsup:

[14thColony]

11. Although war is rarely an answer to anything

traditionally history finds greater fault with the side that started it. In this case, regardless of whatever provocations there might have been, it is generally agreed that Georgia struck first against the South Ossetians, even though Russia had repeatedly explained what would happen if they decided on that course of action. Is Russian going over the top by pressing forward into Georgia-proper? Yes, but then if Saakashvili had not given them an opening, he would not now be in this position. He gambled and he lost. Sadly it's the average person on the street who gets to pay for his 'miscalculation.'

[skooooo]

13. I'm not siding with Russia.

Why would anyone?

[rug]

15. Got me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6615869&mesg_id=6615869

[Ganja Ninja]

16. Here's the problem.

Every time the Russians have voiced disapproval of something we do, are doing or thinking of doing, we blow them off as if they were nobodies. They didn't like us signing up all the former eastern bloc satellite states into NATO. We didn't care. On just about every issue that's come up between the two of us we've listened and noted their complaints, disregarded them and then gone ahead and done as we please.

The Georgians were hoping their relationship with us would give them some leverage in dealing with the Russians. They had an internal dispute with their ethnic Russian populace and thought we would be there for them when push comes to shove.

So if it seems a little pro Russian it's not. It's more like anti American-hegemony. If we would treat these people like we aren't still trying to isolate them, surround them and make life in general difficult for them, we might not be seeing what we're seeing today.

[AuntPatsy]

18. Who's everyone? Just Curious...

[AllentownJake]

25. I guess just the people who get angry at me for defending Georgia

The people who agree must just not respond.

[AuntPatsy]

26. There is always two sides to every story, don't you feel it fair to attempt

to understand and be aware of both?

[AllentownJake]

29. Yes

I do, however I see in alot of ways why Georgia is in the right to prevent territory from seceding and joining a hostile neighbor.

[AuntPatsy]

30. I agree with you in that respect but I also believe that more is at play here than any of us

regular citizens are aware of or will even be allowed to know.

[Posteritatis]

59. It's the Caucasus. There's like fourteen sides (nt)

[amandabeech]

62. Yours may be the best post of the night,

from what I've read about the area.

Makes the Balkans look like kindergarten.

[JVS]

19. 70% for Georgia in my poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3752489&mesg_id=3752489

And I think those 70% are blind. Russia is doing the right thing. A strong Russian presence in the Caucuses is good for the stability of the middle-east as well.

[cobalt1999]

20. Russia is far from being in the right here.

Putin is slowly but surely rebuilding Russia's influence and control over the territories of the old Soviet Union.

[AuntPatsy]

23. sounds like what are doing at this moment in time in Iraq......what is the difference?

[cobalt1999]

27. Exactly

Only a hypocrite would support one and not the other.

Most people will condemn both actions.

[AuntPatsy]

34. It kind of bothers me that far too many Dur's are to quick to ignore

the obvious hypocrisy of our positon regarding the conflict in Georgia at the moment..but as much as it bothers me it does not suprise me, its more than obvious that not all members are as liberal as they profess to be.

[AllentownJake]

38. Define Liberal

Define Conservative

Most people are a mash of a bunch of opinions and don't fit into a perfect stereotype.

[AuntPatsy]

44. Your absolutely right, more and more there is no clear way to define someone...

[Warpy]

21. Probably because Georgia shot first

South Ossetia started it when they got sick of Georgian ethnic cleansing and broke away in 1992.

If they'd just stayed put as part of Georgia and allowed Georgia to drive out and/or murder them, then everything would be lovely in the garden.

The population is 75% Russian or pro Russian. Georgia didn't want them, but they did want that section of the gas pipeline and the depot at the end of it back.

Nobody hates recognizing a superior position of a big country against a small country more than I do. However, the first 1400 civilians killed were from Georgian shelling, not Russian bombing.

[AllentownJake]

24. Actually no one knows who shot first

There were border skirmishes going back to August 1st with Georgian's being shot at.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. Han. -nt

[amandabeech]

63. Actually, this probably has been festering since the two break-away

areas declared independence in the early 1990s.

I'm with you, though. I don't see Georgia's position as unreasonable concerning their sovereign territory, I appreciate the grievances of the breakaway areas and I'm not sure who got this started a few days ago or whether that matters now.

Just because shrub and darth are bad news doesn't mean that Putin is good news. I reserve the right to criticize each of them as they act badly.

[magellan]

28. It appears Georgia overplayed its hand

...and precipitated the events that led to Russia's involvement.

That said, there are too many players -- all in it for their own selfish ends -- for me to side with anyone but the civilians caught in the middle of this conflict.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Because of America's bloodstained history in the Cold War.

Which leads many of us to think that because America is aiding Georgia, and the proposed "missile shield" on Russia's borders is evidence a continuation of the Cold War.

[AllentownJake]

32. Umm not to be rude

But Russia has a bloodstained history in the Cold War as well. Actually Russia has a blood stained history with Chechnya right now...as do we with Iraq.

[theboss]

33. All I know is Ukraine must be scrambling to get into NATO now

That's the message here.

[Marrah_G]

35. Because they see ourselves as the enemy and if Bush is on Georgia's side then....

They must of course choose the opposite side.

The majority of people on DU are clueless about this region.

[derby378]

36. I'm not taking sides until I learn more from both sides

I just want the killing to stop.

[KharmaTrain]

37. Let's Take Another Look At This

I don't see anyone here defending what Russia has done...nor Georgia...war is utter insanity and both parties are guilty. That said, let me try to place this in a different place.

Letsay South Carolina decides to break away from the U.S. (kinda a stretch ain't it...and it's about the size of Georgia...the country, not the state)...then South Carolina launches a surprise attack on the U.S., now the U.S. sends in forces and tries to both protect its nationals inside South Carolina and to shut down the South Carolina military machine (and that of its proxies) before they can strike again. I think we called that the Civil War.

Russia has long been involved in the Caucus region. Over the centuries, the Russians tried to gain greater control of this and other regions by setting up enclaves of predominately Russian citizens. Until 1991, Osetsia was one of many Russian enclaves that served as an ethnic buffer on its borders (Lugans may recall the same thing occured in Lithuania) and when Georgia declared independence, this area didn't recognize the new government and remained loosely affiliated with Russia.

Reading a little history on the region could help give a greater understanding about what's happening rather than relying on our corporate media. Hasn't their slipshod coverage of Iraq taught you how easily they are manipulated and how journalistically lazy they are.

Some, including myself, are critical of the boooosh regime for trying to whip this into an international war...providing money, arms and airlifting troops into this war. We aren't playing innocent bystanders here and there are strong indications (Rice's visit) that this attack went on with either U.S. encouragement or complicity. The issue could have been settled diplomatically, but Georgia attacked and now is paying the price.

[bemildred]

40. People like to blindly side with things. It's not just Russia.

And if you were paying attention, it's clear that Georgia initiated the current donnybrook by loosing a mini-blitzkreig on S. Ossetia, so there is a sense that they asked for it.

[Karenina]

49. Russia has been on-record for years

about responses to perceived encroachments. Misha tha Shav has been pokin' at 'em for the last 5 while loadin' hisself and his boys up with new duds and toys that go :nuke: PLUS creme de la creme tutors! Posters of *dimwit" plastered all over town! Neo-cons got some powerful kool-aid, "special herbs and spices" and stuff, super-secret TM like Coke. Check out who he be hangin' wit "back in the day" and get back to me! ;-) :rofl:
WHAT a FUCKING PUTZ.

[bemildred]

50. Well, I agree that there was no mystery about what they would do.

It was like handing them a gift. Stupidest thing I've seen since the Israelis cranked up the Second Lebanon War,

[Matariki]

41. Because we DON'T want to get in a war with them

that's why.

[JVS]

45. Yup. At a certain point on has to decide between two options

continued conflict

or

accepting a fait accompli.

I choose the latter.

[Odin2005]

42. There are too many DUers that are conspiracy nuts that think that the Neo-Cons are the cause of...

...All the evil in the world and everyone that opposes the Neo-Cons must automatically be good. I remember when DUers were going on and on about how a good a guy the president of Iran was and claimed that everyone that didn't like him was a sucker for neo-cons lies. Oh, and I'm still waiting for that invasion of Iran that was supposed to happen 2 years ago. :eyes:

[AuntPatsy]

46. I think its fairly clear by now or should be that those in power want nothing

more than to bomb Iran, they have stated such time and time again in the past few years so I wonder why you don't believe it is a possibility, the truth is they didn't then nor do they now have the ability to do so solo and not be called on it, to accuse some of believing it all to be conspiracy which you imply is ludicrous is just another attempt to ignore the truth which is more than apparent to many that these people will do anything to accomplish their goals.....

I think your blase attitude that others put forth as well does nothing more than allow them to continue without fear of reprisal, I question your motive for attempting to trivialize the very real threat that this country as well as others face as long as those in power continue to hold all the cards...

[Odin2005]

53. Of course the neo-cons WANT to attack Iran, that doesn't mean they will.

For at least 2 years people have been posting that an attack on Iran was immanent, so EXCUSE ME for not believing the cries of "wolf! wolf!" anymore. :eyes:

[hogwyld]

43. Because Boooosch supports Georgia

That's about as good a reason as any...:crazy:

[daleo]

47. I see support for both sides here

There may be more sympathy for the Russian position, though based on the following:

- most early accounts say the Georgians attacked first.
- the South Ossetians have voted to secede from Georgia on two occasions and westerners tend to be sympathetic to the idea of self-determination.
- the Russians are seen as protecting the break-away province's residents from an ethnic cleansing.
- U.S. advisers are in Georgia, and most people on this board don't trust the Bush administration.

However, any such sympathy could evaporate if the Russians are seen as seen to be going too far. In addition, the western media seems to be coalescing around an anti-Russian point of view, and the repetition of that will have its effect over time. That will work in Georgia's favor.

With the Russians, I think there is also a cultural factor. On the one hand, most westerners have grown up under a great deal of anti-Russian propaganda (cold war, etc). On the other hand, Russia fought the Nazis and Russians have created a lot of the world's great art and science. Georgia has a hard time competing with those long established western stereotypes, for good or ill.

[ileus]

48. because GW is on Georgia's side.

[Seen the light]

54. Here's why I'm giving this thread its first recommendation

People recommend the dumbest shit on DU, yet a thread that exposes some twisted logic many on DU have when it comes to world events hasn't received a single one?

People in Georgia continue to get blown to fucking pieces and DU doesn't give a shit what Russia does since Georgia is friends with Bush. Guess what? IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY DESERVE TO GET FUCKING BLOWN TO PIECES!

War should only be used as an absolute last resort, right? Does anyone actually think that Russia had no other option than to attack Georgia? Of course they had a choice! They chose continued war over diplomacy, just like a certain chimperor in the White House.

DU is losing any moral authority it had by not speaking out on Russia's atrocities. Not saying that Georgia isn't at blame here BECAUSE OF COURSE THEY ARE AND SO ARE WE, but to turn a blind eye to the devastation Russia is giving Georgia is unconscionable.

[AllentownJake]

55. Thank you

I think alot of people are wrong on here but the re-emergence of Russia as a military force willing to occupy neighbors after Russia's behavior over the past 8 years scares the shit out of me.

[Posteritatis]

66. Seconding that (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

56. Why are you blindly siding with Georgia, and our neocons, against Russia?

Even Gorbachev blames the Georgians!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

57. This is a conflict we don't need to get involved with.

We need to keep our noses out of what's going on.
Duckie

[IndianaGreen]

58. Gorbachev was President in 1991, this is what he said today about Georgia

The roots of this tragedy lie in the decision of Georgia's separatist leaders in 1991 to abolish South Ossetian autonomy. This turned out to be a time bomb for Georgia's territorial integrity. Each time successive Georgian leaders tried to impose their will by force -- both in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia, where the issues of autonomy are similar -- it only made the situation worse. New wounds aggravated old injuries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081101372.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[librechik]

60. huh--wha? Aren't we allies with Georgia's fragile new democracy?

wait--that would mean rushing to her aid against a big bad army we have no means to rebuff.

Methinks we will study this complexity you speak of before that happens

Hope Georgia likes it under the bus.

Democracy ain't all it's cracked up to be you know. If you watch Bush's actions rather than words.

[Blue_Roses]

64. I don't think many know what the hell they are siding with as long as

it is the complete opposite of what Bush is supporting:crazy: It's a shame that we can't put faith in what our president says because he has lied to us so much, but there it is.

When I first heard about this on Friday, I wasn't even aware there was a country named Georgia, so I dug and pulled as much info as I could--to this point--because I don't want my support to be a blind interest. I now have a better understanding of what is going on.

I agree with you, Russia isn't a country we want to get embroiled with. Right now they know we can't do anything and they are gonna do what they damn well please. Bush thought Putin was his friend, but how naive' he is. Bush has NO political capitol to do anything. He's ruined that for the US.

[IsItJustMe]

65. Not this time slick.