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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:45 PM
Original message
Thoughts on the Role of Private Moral Issues in Public Politics
I have been a John Edwards supporter since 2004, when I campaigned for him in both the primaries for President, and in the general election for VP. Though the recent revelations of his affair have somewhat shaken me up, I still am a John Edwards supporter in many ways. I don’t regret for a moment the support that I gave to him in 2004 or 2008. If he ran again, I very well might support him again. And this talk about his political career being over, and that he has disqualified himself for a cabinet post in the Obama administration is very upsetting to me. John McCain’s affair, which was so much worse than Edwards’, apparently doesn’t disqualify him for the Presidency. Yet Edwards’ affair disqualifies him for any role in politics altogether? What kind of world is that?

My reasons for saying all this are quite simple. I am a liberal/progressive Democrat, and Edwards’ views and actions, most importantly his efforts and plans for ending poverty in our country, are more in line with my views than are those of the great majority of other Democratic politicians.

Having said that, however, I do not subscribe to the view that considerations of a politician’s private actions should have no bearing on my willingness to vote for them or support them. To the contrary, my view is that one’s private actions have a good deal of bearing on their fitness for public office.

It may appear to some that my third paragraph contradicts my first two paragraphs of this post. But this is a very complex issue in my opinion. If you feel that I’ve contradicted myself, I ask you to bear with me.


Why I feel that consideration of one’s private actions bears on their fitness for public office

I believe that one’s “character” is perhaps the most important consideration in deciding whom to support for public office. By character I mean who the candidate is as a person. I also believe that the most important character issue is one’s capacity for empathy, which I have previously written about as the main source of morality. Here is what I said about empathy in my previous post:

Empathy is the quality whereby we imagine ourselves in another’s shoes – what it is like to be that person (or animal) and experience what that person is experiencing. And it’s more than just imagining it, it’s actually feeling it – which is where the expression “I feel your pain” comes from. The reason that I believe morality is impossible without empathy is that I cannot imagine what possible value any morality could have if it is not ultimately based on empathy…

Empathy is the most important quality I look for in a U.S. President. Someone with a great capacity for empathy is probably highly unlikely to send our young men and women off to be killed in unnecessary wars. Such a person is also likely to push for domestic policies that are fair for all Americans, rather than tilted towards the rich and powerful.

Clearly, a person’s actions in their private life can contain many clues as to their capacity for empathy. That statement seems so obvious to me that it hardly needs to be defended.

And if a person demonstrates a large capacity for empathy in their private life, it seems likely that their empathy will have a substantial influence on their public policies. How could it not?

I am not at all saying that one’s private life should be the main area of emphasis in considering one’s fitness for public office. I’m just saying that it can potentially offer important clues.

What is one to make of politicians who appear to exhibit a great deal of empathy in their private lives, and yet in their public lives support right wing policies that greatly hurt ordinary people, for the benefit of the rich and powerful, on whom they depend for campaign contributions?

Trying to answer that question leads me to the conclusion that one’s public actions are usually much more important than their private actions in consideration of their fitness for public office.


Why private actions are usually of limited value in considering one’s fitness for public office

Notwithstanding my belief that one’s private actions can potentially provide important clues as to one’s fitness for public office, the value of basing our support for a political candidate on his or her private actions has significant limitations.

To explain why, let’s get back to the candidate who appears to lead an exemplary private life while supporting heartless right wing policies that hurt people. How does one explain that?

Perhaps the best way to explain it would be that the appearance of an exemplary private life is just a mirage. How do we know what kind of private life a person really leads? How do we know that, despite a candidate’s public persona, he or she doesn’t habitually treat other people with insensitivity or cruelty? Though we can get various clues as to a candidate’s character through what we learn about his/her private life, we can never know the whole story. Therefore, I believe that the most likely explanation for politicians who push cruel right wing policies in public while apparently living exemplary private lives is that their private lives are not what they appear to be. Their public life is a matter of public record, whereas their private life is largely a matter of conjecture, from our vantage point. Therefore, it should be a no-brainer is to which we give the most emphasis.

An alternative to that explanation would be that the politician really does exhibit a good deal of empathy and other positive character traits in his/her private life. In that case, perhaps the explanation for the cruel right wing policies that they push is ignorance or ideological inflexibility. But who would want to vote for such a person? The bottom line is that I would not want to vote for a person who supports cruel right wing public policies regardless of how virtuous their private lives appear to be.


Adultery in politics

In my post on empathy as the source of morality I briefly talked about adultery by considering two extreme cases:

At one extreme, consider a man and woman who get married with the express understanding that adultery is not off-limits within the bounds of their marriage. One or both of the spouses commits adultery, and neither one feels hurt about it. Furthermore, there is no dishonesty involved in getting the third party to participate in the adultery, and the third party isn’t hurt either. The way I see it is, no victim, no immorality.

At the other extreme, the couple had a definite understanding when they married that adultery is not consistent with their marriage vows. One partner commits adultery for no good reason other than that he wants to, and the result is that his spouse goes into a depression and commits suicide. And, the adulterer had a very good idea of the pain he would cause when he did it. In my opinion it is the callousness of the act, which in turn derives largely from a lack of empathy, which accounts of the immorality of the act.

But most cases of adultery are not characterized by either of those two extremes. Human relationships are very complicated. The great majority of human acts, including adultery in my opinion, are neither purely saintly nor purely evil. They mostly fall somewhere in between those two extremes.


Should the private affairs of public figures be considered legitimate news?

Since I believe that knowledge of a person’s private life can offer clues as to their fitness for public office, does that mean that I consider the details of their private lives to be legitimate fodder for public news stories? I do have some ambivalence about that.

On the one hand I strongly believe in the Fourth Amendment to our Constitution, which protects our right to privacy from the government (or at least it did before the recent FISA amendment was voted into law).

On the other hand, there are limits to our Constitution’s protection of our privacy when we go out in public. The question of the right of the press to report on the private lives of American politicians is more of an ethical than a legal issue.

I do believe that in the run-up to the 2000 election it would have been legitimate for the press to report that George W. Bush blew up frogs for fun when he was young. Perhaps that’s just my political bias showing there. But it seems to me that such reporting could have offered some legitimate insight into Bush’s sadistic nature, which would have been useful to American citizens in considering whom to vote for. In retrospect, given what we now know of the lack of empathy that Bush has exhibited as our President, such an insight would appear to have been right on the mark.

In any event, if the press believes that it is fair to report on the private lives of political candidates, they should do so responsibly. It is nearly impossible to describe exactly what I mean by that. But I would say first of all that responsible reporting means that it should only be done if the reporter sincerely feels that the issue bears upon the candidate’s fitness for office. Among other things, that means that the same criteria should be used for everyone, irrespective of a candidate’s political views or Party affiliation. Enough said about that.

And one other thing: The press may have the right to report on such things, but to castigate a candidate for lying about something like that is the height of hypocrisy. Such criticism implies that the candidate is morally obligated to tell the truth about such things to the press. He is not.


What to make of John Edwards’ affair

So, why did I say that I continue to support Edwards (morally) and would vote for him again, despite the fact that I believe a person’s private life can offer important clues as to their future actions in public office?

Well, first of all, as I explained above, I think a person’s public behavior is a much better indication as to how they will perform in public office than their private behavior. It was mostly John Edwards’ emphasis on the need to solve our poverty problem that caused me to admire him so much and support his candidacy in the first place. Poverty is not a popular subject in American politics today. In fact, it is almost considered a taboo subject. Edwards’ willingness to address this issue pushed other Democrats to address it as well. Edwards proved to be a real leader on this issue. I believe he acted courageously in doing so.

But what about his adultery? Doesn’t that show that he has no character, and therefore his rhetoric on the poverty issue was just a political ploy? No, I don’t believe so. John Edwards has demonstrated a long-standing commitment to fighting poverty in our country, at a time when it was not at all considered a popular thing to do.

What about FDR and Martin Luther King? FDR is routinely ranked as our second greatest President, and rightfully so. He courageously took on the rich and powerful when he pushed through his New Deal, which did more to improve the lives of the average American than any U.S. President in our history. Martin Luther King has a holiday named after him because of his courageous leadership of our Civil Rights movement – and rightfully so. Do FDR’s and MLK’s sexual affairs negate their great epochal achievements? Absolutely not, in my opinion! Does anyone really believe that their affairs negate their achievements?

That is not to excuse them for their affairs, nor is it to excuse Edwards for his. I am extremely reluctant to judge people for what they do in their private lives in the realm of interpersonal relationships because it is so difficult for me to place myself in their shoes or understand the circumstances that led them to their actions. But a sexual affair is one aspect of a person’s life. If one human being is to judge another for doing that, at least the person should be judged in the context of their whole life, not just on that one issue.

Here is Edwards’ public explanation for his affair:

I went from being a senator, a young senator to being considered for vice president, running for president, being a vice presidential candidate and becoming a national public figure. All of which fed a self-focus, an egotism, a narcissism that leads you to believe that you can do whatever you want. You're invincible. And there will be no consequences."

"I am imperfect," he said. "And anybody, anybody watching this broadcast or who hears about this who wants to beat me up for this, they should have at it. The truth is – you can't possibly beat me up more than I have already beaten myself up."

In my opinion, that is an extraordinarily humble admission. It goes along with my previous impression of John Edwards as a very humble man, not withstanding the fact that he admits to egotism and narcissism.


Conclusion – putting things in perspective

With all the hullabaloo over Edwards’ affair, it seems to be that almost all reasonable perspective has been lost. People, even DUers, talk about Edwards’ political career being over and that he is no longer eligible to be Attorney General.

Did David Vitter’s liaison with a prostitute end his political career? Did John McCain’s affair end his political career? What about FDR, JFK, LBJ, and MLK? Did discovery of their affairs after the fact mean that they occupied positions that they weren’t qualified for?

It burns me up to no end that John McCain gets a free ride on this, while John Edwards’ affair is all over the news. Let’s put that in some perspective. John McCain left his invalid and disfigured wife for a younger woman after his wife waited for him for several years to return from his military duty. John Edwards had an affair, but he and his wife stuck together, and their relationship seems to be pretty strong. I did say earlier that “I am extremely reluctant to judge people for what they do in their private lives in the realm of interpersonal relationships.” So attribute this to my political views if you like, but I do see a very big difference between what Edwards did and what McCain did. And Edwards isn’t currently running for President – or any other public office. So why does Edwards get castigated while McCain gets a free ride?

I think we all know the answer to that. John McCain is our corporate media’s favorite candidate of the moment. John Edwards on the other hand is perhaps the person in our country whom our corporate media most fears. There is nothing they would like better than to drive the nail through his political coffin and eliminate him forever more as a threat to themselves. And does anyone believe for a second that Obama would get the same free ride that McCain has gotten if an affair was discovered in his past?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Corporations see fit to judge people the same way...
Pity we can't judge corporate execs the same way too. :7
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. We should be.
They make decisions that affect millions of lives. We have a right to have some say in who will be be guarding our financial houses and influencing our livelihoods.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. too bad john edwards has no character beyond hyprocisy in this case nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Would you care to explain what you mean by that? What hypocrisy are you referring to?
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The only hypocrisy I see...
... was in his 1999 statement about Clinton disrespecting the office and his family.

He's definitely eating crow for that remark, and he deserves to.

But still, that was back in '99, well before this affair started. He couldn't have predicted that HE would be the one "disrespecting his public servantship" some day. Because no one can.
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HomerRamone Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. If he were the nominee now and this came out we would have lost.
Edwards was my choice, but for better or worse this is not the same world as it was when JFK was around. He should have known he wouldn't be able to keep his affair secret, and so he was horribly irresponsible.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I don't see how he should have known that.
And if he was the nominee he may have been able to keep it from coming out.

But even if not, how would the media be able to talk about this without talking about McCain?

All candidates have their liabilities. Why should this liability be fatal? It doesn't seem to have made a dent in McCain's campaign. Why should Democrats accept such a double standard?

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HomerRamone Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Maybe things shouldn't be this way
but they are. Most people will not vote for an adulterer who lies about it. We'll see if ABC's cover-up for McCain scandal gets any traction. My guess is no because McCain's affair was long in the past and he's now married to her...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Bill Clinton maintained approval ratings in the 60s even after he admitted lying about his affair
His approval ratings were high enough that efforts to remove him from office gathered no traction, and the electorate punished the Republicans for pushing it. They were certainly high enough to win a third term if the Constitution didn't prohibit it. Likewise, JFK, FDR and MLK all maintain very high approval to this day, even though it's now widely known that they had affairs.

I think that the general public is much more forgiving about these kind of things than a lot of people realize -- as long as they believe that the candidate (or office holder) will (or is) serve them well.

In Edwards' case in particular, given the strong relationship between him and Elizabeth, it's hard to see why the electorate would substantially punish him for that.

Of course, the corporate news media would be all over him, and that could be a problem. But I think that Democrats need to make a concentrated effort to prevent the corporate media from calling all the shots.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The context of an affair is very important, too.
Whether you conduct it with class and dignity, or not. How your treat everyone involved.

Rudy Giuliani was odious as much for the classless way he treated Donna and arranged his rendevoux with Judith, as for his temper and his policies.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. That is so true
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 01:07 AM by Time for change
I should have noted that in my OP.

As far as I can tell, other than the affair itself, John has always treated Elizabeth with the utmost respect. And vice versa.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I think the double standard continues to exist...
... because we keep LETTING it exist. Our reactions keep allowing it to exist.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Yes
More people should challenge the corporate media about this. If a corporate "journalist" asks a Democrat a question about it, s/he should ask the journalist why Edwards' affair is such big deal while McCain's isn't worth talking about.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Marriage as judge of our candidates' character-- very common, actually.
What is one to make of politicians who appear to exhibit a great deal of empathy in their private lives, and yet in their public lives support right wing policies that greatly hurt ordinary people, for the benefit of the rich and powerful, on whom they depend for campaign contributions?

Dubya Bush, for all the evil he's done, has tremendous empathy for Laura and the kids. His marriage was so happy (or appeared that way) that up to one-third of women used that as a consideration for voting in 2004!-- because of Teresa's sharp tongue and too-often invoking of the ex-husband.

Never mind that John Kerry said, "thank God I found Teresa", there are numerous pictures of their affection for each other, and did too many people forget the "sharp tongues" of Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy?

Happy marriages come in more than one flavor, but too many voters respond to only the most obvious flavor.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. I am skeptical about Bush's alleged empathy for his wife and kids
To be honest about it, I know almost nothing about that particular subject.

I have trouble believing that anyone as callous as him with respect to his public responsibilities could have empathy for anyone.

I'm not saying it's not true -- just that I'm very skeptical about it, to put it mildly. And how would we know?

I've heard him mention Laura in public, and I'm not impressed. It has sounded very staged to me. But then, maybe my political bias is showing through there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. Unfortunately . . . re the baby and payments . . .
I feel a little like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop --!!

Will this be a Part-2'er . . . ?

I hope not --!!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
49. Well, Edwards did volunteer to take a paternity test
So, I think that he probably feels on solid ground on that point.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's so typically Republican...
... to care ONLY about one's own family, or to only care about a cause or a social injustice if it happens to them personally or their own family personally.

Perhaps the best way to explain it would be that the appearance of an exemplary private life is just a mirage. ... How do we know that, despite a candidate’s public persona, he or she doesn’t habitually treat other people with insensitivity or cruelty? ... Therefore, I believe that the most likely explanation for politicians who push cruel right wing policies in public while apparently living exemplary private lives is that their private lives are not what they appear to be.

I've always been suspicious of candidates who make a point of showcasing their perfect, freshly scrubbed families. Always white and Christian, the mother always Central Casting-beautiful. MItt Romney, I'm talking to you big time.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
16. 'mericuns are prudish fony phuckers
and dums!!1

Well thought out posts deserve better replies, but I'm so sick of media distraction I refuse to give it my time. I only saw the pic of the Edwards fling woman 90+ times while CNN was on the screen of the treadmil at the gym.

Romans distracted the plebes with chariot races and gladiator battles as they turned a republic into a dictatorship. hmmmm
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
50. This is outrageous
And when Edwards mentioned McCain's affair during his interview with ABC, ABC deleted that part of it. :banghead:
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Karl_Bonner_1982 Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. Adultery - problem. Unmarried and sexually active- not a problem.
I wonder if an unmarried political candidate could get away with having a sexually active relationship nowadays? It seems that almost all young unmarried couples are doing it, I wonder if that would be a big issue?
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
36. Actually, Bob Kerrey had a
relationship with a popular singer while he was a governor -- both were single at the time -- and it didn't seem to impact his possible candidacy at all. This was even in the '80s, I think (anybody remember more details?) So it looks like the standards are reasonable for unmarried politicians.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. It wasn't a singer. It was Debra Winger, while she was in NE filming Terms of Endearment
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Interesting! And of course, there was divorced John Kerry with Morgan Fairchild.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 04:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. I wholeheartedly agree...
"...that is an extraordinarily humble admission." Might we add self-reflective, honest and direct? ;-)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, self-reflective, honest and direct too
I'm sure that the Republican elite and our corporate media wouldn't agree with that characterization at all, but then, who cares about their opinion.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. Interesting.
As always, I am very impressed by your ability to organize and present complex ideas in such a manner as this. It makes your essays a "must read," and as always, I am happy to read and "nominate" them.

One of the most important points is that, no matter how we believe as individuals, the fact is that the media today is always going to focus on issues such as affairs. In the years before the 1970s, such things were known but not reported by journalists. Some of the most outstanding leaders, such as JFK and MLK, were sadly reckless in their personal affairs, but the media took a hands-off approach that is long gone. While we can debate the pros and cons of the differences in approach in 1962 and 2008, there can be no debate that things have changed .... and no public figure can believe that if they engage in such behavior, that it will go unreported.

That said, the focus on Edwards' behavior, including his judgement in deciding to enter the 2008 democratic primary, is being promoted by the media as a factor in the McCain vs Obama contest. It would only be proper to consider it in that context if Obama were to take the position that Edwards should still be considered for a position such as VP or Attorney General. I think it is safe to say that Obama had considered Edwards as a solid choice for Attorney General, until he found out about the affair about a month ago. Since then, I believe, the door was closed on that possible appointment.

I'll end this with a short story. Many years ago, I was helping a friend, Sam, build his A-frame house. My brother Tom stopped by, apparently to lend a hand. But appearances are not always what they seem. My brother said he told his wife he was going spend the afternoon helping us, but that he really was going to visit a girlfriend. He instructed us to tell his wife he had "just left" is she called, and to then call him at the other woman's home to warn him.

"Fuck you, Thomas," Sam said. My brother questioned if he was joking? "Your wife is supposed to be your best friend," Sam replied. "If you are the type of person who will cheat on your best friend, you will cheat on all the rest of your friends, too."
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I think your friend Sam did the right thing
More people should handle situations like that in the way that he did. And he might have added that it was also wrong of your brother to try to make you and Sam complicit in his plans.

On the other hand, as a universal blanket condemnation, I think what he said was too harsh. It's hard to explain what I mean by that, except that I am very reluctant to judge a person's whole life on the basis of one or a limited number of actions. I know that you are a great admirer of MLK, as am I. Therefore, I doubt that you think he was an overall bad person because of his affairs.

I had the impression from the way this thread was going that people thought I was trying to defend adultery -- which I wasn't. I did want to say more about the subject, but then it would have taken way too long to do it any justice, and it would have been a distraction from my main points. Suffice it to say that I believe it is a way more complicated issue that how most people see it.

Also, my thought processes on this subject may be somewhat blurred by the outrage I feel over the double standard with which the corporate media has handled this. The difference between how they handle his affair and how they handle McCain's could hardly be more stark. It appears to me that John hurt Elizabeth far less than McCain hurt his former wife. And John made a largely successful attempt to repair the relationship with Elizabeth, which is very important IMO. Yet the media treat Edwards' affair as if it were the most important news item in the world, while actively covering up McCain's. And McCain is running for President, while Edwards isn't running for anything.

I do hope that Obama chooses Edwards for AG. He needn't and probably shouldn't say anything about it until he takes office. But this double standard is just too much for me to bear.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Here's a double standard for you
Mr Holy Pants Edwards on why he can not bear the notion of gay marriage:

"Because I’m 53 years old, and I grew up in a small town in the rural South. I was raised in a the Southern Baptist church, and so I have a belief system that arises from that. It’s part of who I am. I can’t make it disappear. … I’m just not there yet."

So this humble empath you see is actually a huge hypocrite, assigning the proof of his 'faith' not to his own actions, but to the way he stands against other people's rights. Honest, non adulerous people. Families. My family is unworthy because, you see, Edwards is a Southern Baptist, and it is part of who he is, along with cheating and telling lies, which he should be able to get by with without criticism, while he rants about his 'values' and how he can not stand being around gays.
Fuck John Edwards, one of just 14 co-sponsors of the Iraq War Resolution, the only first day Democratic co-sponsor, a man who lies to his wife and kids, sleeps around at will, and spouts off about his morality when explaining his own bigotry.

Oh. And look up the history of the Souther Baptist Church and other attitudes they taught during John's 53 years of faith. It is not just gay folk they held in contempt.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Edwards does NOT feel contemptuous towards gay people
Unfortunately, the conventional wisdom is that mainstream politicians, especially those from the South, must not advocate for gay marriage. If you call Edwards a hypocrite for that then you'd have to call just about every other U.S. Senator, including John Kerry, a hypocrite for the same thing. Can you name a U.S. Senator who has advocated for gay marriage?
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. That's why they should re-frame gay marriage as...
... full gay legal rights.

It's the perfect opportunity for an honest discussion about just how many legal and social benefits there really are to marriage (as opposed to civil unions).
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. I'm almost positive that Edwards has said he approves of full legal rights for gays
So have many other liberal U.S. Congresspersons.

That is essentially what is meant by the term civil unions, at least as used in today's political discussion on the issue.

But many or most gays feel that that isn't enough. The term "marriage" carries a symbolic meaning that says that the gay relationship is just as valid as a heterosexual marriage.

I don't disagree with that view. In fact, I agree with it.

But I also am very hesitant to criticize politicians who stop at "full legal rights" because they feel that advocating gay marriage would jeopardize their political career. And yes, they rationalize their stance by bringing God and family, blah blah blah into the discussion, and one could call that hypocritical. But what can a politician do? If being 100% honest means that our best liberal/progressive politicians will get voted out of office, then I'm willing to settle for them being 90% honest.

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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. It's tougher to pick and choose beliefs than we think.
That speaks to me how much of a positive good his Baptist faith was to him-- when something is that important to us, we tend to overlook the drawbacks. We swallow ideas whole when they're presented to us by people we know, love, and trust.

We don't learn gender-role stereotypes from Focus On The Family. We learn them from Mom and Dad and how they act around each other.

I like how he says, "It’s part of who I am. I can’t make it disappear. … I’m just not there yet." It honestly attests to his struggle and the difficulty in challenging something that's so much a part of you.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Wow!
But you forget the point. He made it disappear when he wanted to have it off with some stange video slag, did he not?
The point is- to be clear as though speaking to a child- if it is such a part of him, why the ease of his adultery and mountain of lies? If he's so freaking religious, why does it not show in his own life, and why if he can not live by it, should he be assuming the right to assign others to live by it?
And by the way, his religion teaches that hypocrites, liars, those who call out others as sinners while sinning themselves are the only people worse than adulterers. Chirst however says not a word about gay people, so JRE's sanctimony is not being taken in order of importance, to say the least.
So he can make it disappear, along with all thoughts of wife and family, when it gets him what he wants, like cheap extra marital sex. But others are held to strict standards.
Perhaps the worst of it is how he uses his 'faith' as a device for his own agenda. My Southern Baptist elders called that blashpemy, the one unforgivable sin. I hope they were right.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Thanks for spelling this point out.
The difference between how they handle his affair and how they handle McCain's could hardly be more stark. It appears to me that John hurt Elizabeth far less than McCain hurt his former wife.
...
And John made a largely successful attempt to repair the relationship with Elizabeth, which is very important IMO.


This is the point I keep hammering home again and again. JE's affair was NOT part of a pattern of callousness toward women... as clearly has been the case for McCain.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Sam is a wise man
My estranged wife has carried on an affair for over a year now with a married man. It is interesting to see how our once mutual friends have left her in droves. Deep down, people understand what Sam said out loud. If you are unfaithful to your best friend you will undoubtedly be unfaithful to all of your friends.

I was an Edwards supporter. I denounce his actions like I denounce those of Republicans who get caught in the same situations. I wish him the best but I don't wish for Obama to include him in a cabinet. If his amazing wife can't trust him then none of us can.

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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Sam is a prude
Ok, so I get why Sam does not want to be involved in telling lies. Sucks him in to someone else's drama.

The whole marriage/spouse thing is a construct of religion though. Who says your wife (partner, lover) is your best friend? So he was having sex with someone else....get real, that happens. Why let the bible thumpers tell you how to live your social life. Get the whole "one partner, religious, get married" thing out of your heads. The church invented it....so let them have it. If it's not harming anyone, why is it a problem?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. "John McCain’s affair, which was so much worse than Edwards’, apparently
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 09:47 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
doesn’t disqualify him for the Presidency. Yet Edwards’ affair disqualifies him for any role in politics altogether? What kind of world is that?"

A world run by sick, hypocritical, vicious and fraudulent Republican puppies, an extraordinary number of whom fill a long register of sexual predators*, many unusally depraved. That's what kind of world it is.

See the register, here, on DU.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. "A world run by sick, hypocritical, vicious and fraudulent Republican puppies"
Yep, that's the problem that we're faced with. We need to do something about that.
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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
25. Affairs are the norm now
The "institution" of marriage is collapsing under it's own foolishness. So he had an affair. Big Deal.

Many of you have had affairs, or cheated. Be honest. Did it affect your job? Ok, so some people are dumb enough to have affairs where they work....that may turn out badly, but it does not disqualify you to do your job....does it?

Who cares what a politician does privately? He has the right opinions and ideas. He votes liberally. He supports the right candidates. Let the man do his work and quit meddling in the parts of his life that have nothing to do with you.....not to mention the fact that it was religion that brought us the silly notion of monogamy in the first place...and marriage as well. Take religion out of the equation, and all you have is a man who had sex with an attractive woman. No crime there.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:11 AM
Original message
I don't see it as a matter of religion
If a man and a women, or any two people, have an understanding about their relationship, and if the understanding is such that certain actions by one partner will be deeply painful to the other one, then by violating the other person's trust and hurting that person, it is in that sense a bad thing to do. I don't think it has to have anything to do with religion. To me, it all has to do with an understanding between two people who love each other.

But as I've said, I think it is an extremely complex issue, and it would take a whole book to begin to deal with the issue adequately.
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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
35. True, in a way.
Are you saying that your "understanding" could never change? What if you are no longer happy with that person? Should you suffer so that you don't hurt that person? That hurts you.

The whole idea of two people living together forever is a concoction of western religion. You do it because you were taught to.

Edwards was being human in what he did. Don't use right wing, puritanical values to demean him.....or others.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. No, I'm not saying the understanding could never change
People get to the point where they're no longer happy in a marriage, and in that case it is appropriate to reassess and discuss.

Some people are perfectly happy with the idea of living together forever, and they do it, and they love it. How many people does that apply to? I have no idea, but it's certainly a minority.

I would not demean Edwards for what he did because I have a lot of admiration for him. And anyhow, as he said himself, he has beat himself up real bad for what he did because he hurt his wife, and that made him feel very bad. So as far as I'm concerned, it's senseless for anyone else to beat him up about it. And I continue to feel that he would make an excellent president.

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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
26. The fact that she got a job she aparently was not qualified for
and made a 6 figure salary is a big problem. I am also concerned about other financial details that may come out. Even if he did not know about the payments, they can still be damaging to him if they were done by his friends in order to protect him.
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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. How is that our business??
It's his money....he can spend it however he wants. So he hired his little muffin to do a video.....that's illegal now?

Unless he funneled tax money to her (which he did not) I say, "Keep your puritan beak out of his private business"
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. It is most certainly our business if she was paid with campaign contributions.
Beyond that, any elected official (or his buddies) being involved in paying hush money to keep a secret is very troublesome.

I don't give a pass to shit like this just because someone is a Democrat. We'd all be raking him over the coals if he were Republican.
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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Campaign money is his to spend
He did not violate any campaign finance rules in what he did. If friends paid her off, that is because he knew that the Republi-religious right would attack him. He really did nothing illegal here. He was having sex with his videographer. How is that a problem?

He should get a pass...clearly. Republicans claim that this is bad behavior. If they create that standard for themselves then we should hold them to it, but we should not try to live up to their foolish set of biblical life lessons. We should not meddle in other peoples sex lives.

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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. If he spent his campaign money in order to employ his mistress in
a job she didn't deserve, that is wrong, and if you don't see that, then you are a really fucked up person.
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The Family Guy Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. How didn't she deserve it?
Have you ever hired someone who did not live up to your standards? Have you ever had work redone? So she was not the best videograpeher. i saw her stuff though. It was not half bad.

Just because you have sex with a person does not mean that you can never work with them.

Sounds like and argument that a republican would make....and end it by name calling. Classy. Go post on FAUX news.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. I agree, however
what evidence do we have that she wasn't qualified for the job? We hear that from the corporate media, which I would never believe unless I saw corroborating evidence.

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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. She may have been struggling to get her career off the ground before...
... I'm sure a lot of us in the job market can relate to that.

She may have never had her big break until Edwards hired her.

It's a cold, harsh economic world out there. So any person who gives you a big career boost, who treats you like a professional, like you have skills, is your hero and your savior. I can definitely see this happening. It probably exponentially increased her attraction to him.
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