So the guy threatening her is dead but now she's hiding out.

[autorank]

:shrug:

From Junkdrawer

FrederickPost.Com Aug. 3, 2008

"Jean is currently at an undisclosed location," McFadden said.
....
Duley told the court she had been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury Friday. She was
reluctant to become involved in the FBI's investigation of Ivins, McFadden said. "She had to quit her
job and is now unable to work, and we have spent our savings on attorneys."

McFadden would not provide any specific information about Duley's involvement with Ivins or the
investigation.

"Jean is the kind of person who believes her life is insignificant in comparison with the kind of
damage Dr. Ivins is capable of," he said. "She sacrificed all this stuff because she wanted to do the
right thing. She'll soon reveal what many wouldn't because they didn't want to be involved with
it."

So what's "all this stuff" that "she sacrificed?"

Is she making a threat in the last line above, underlined. "reveal what many wouldn't" (an act of
will on their part) "because they didn't want to get involved with it."

I guess that depends on what the definition of "it" is.

Who are the "many?"

[Catherine Vincent]

1. Good point.

If the alleged "stalker" is dead, she would have no need to hide out.

[autorank]

2. Right. This one's strange. Too many ?s out of the gate.

Makes it look like some thing's wrong.

This Frederick Post is on a roll. Really cool stuff.

[JDPriestly]

3. Maybe she is the one with the psych problem.

Did anyone think about that? Maybe she was projecting.

[autorank]

4. I can't talk about it but that's one hell of an interesting angle.

Seriously. She's taking her fears, presuming that she is actually at risk, and transferring them to
Ivins. Is that what you're saying. That's above my pay grade and knowledge but it's fascinating.

[Joe Chi Minh]

16. Ahoy! Love the Jolly Roger, shipmate! I'd assumed she was scared of the

Governmetn. Must pay closer attention.

[autorank]

25. She's the vehicle to tag Ivins as "crazy"

Now she's feeling the "stress." She's took the bait, now she's finding out who she's dealing with.

Glad you like the jolly roger. It's from a book I'm reading on Pirates, terrific.

Raiders & Rebels

The first chapter is masterful.

Ahoy!

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. Ahoy, there, Capting! You put it in a nutshell, by the sound of it. It's all gone pear-shaped on

her. A hapless tool out of her depth.

Must get that book, Mikey. I have one ancestor who owned a pirate ship operating from Jersey and another in Bryanston, Dorset, who was a sponsor of such nefarious acivities. Sounds like good Republican work. Drug importing, gun-running, etc.

I once did a course in Overseas Trade, including a Cargo Insurance module, and apparently, Lloyds and possibly other insurers, still use a particular form - forget its name/number - which dates from those days. And what we call "pirates", they used to all "rovers"! I found that interesting, as I'd always assumed it was a kind of synonym simply for wandering - though the Rover car has a kind of trademark of a Viking ship.

[autorank]

77. What dates were your ancestors doing this "roving" about

The book makes the case that the pirates were the capable mod level folks who hit a ceiling and sought
more, ambitious bourgeois, and the ambitious and brave common folks who were tired of the nonsense and
hierarchy of jolly old (the resurgent Diggers or maybe Ranters;). They formed a mighty fleet that
headquartered at Isle Saint Marie, Madagascar, using that as their capitol. They had a functioning
democracy and were the scourge of the seas for about 40 years, late 1600's on as I recall Very
appealing. You will love that first chapter.

[Joe Chi Minh]

92. Philip Wynter, owner of the privateer "Industrie" of Jersey lived between

1713 and 1777; and Sir Richard Rogers (alive in 1588) of Bryanston at Blandford (Pirate promoter), are virtually verbatim extracts from the stuff I have.

It was only when I transcribed it that I saw the hilarious irony of the name "Industrie". Right-wingers never change down the ages, do they! As SpiralHawk more or less implied, the name could have been chosen by Rove or Gingrich.

[Joe Chi Minh]

98. Here's an excerpt from the famous Lloyds marine insurance form, which

has been used almost unamended, I think, since the seventeen hundreds:

"Touching the adventures and perils we the assurers are contended to bear and to take upon us in this voyage: they are of the seas, men-of-war, fire, enemies, pirates, rovers, thieves, jettisons, letters of mart and countermart, reprisals, takings at sea, arrests, restraints,and detainments of all kings, princes and people, of what nation, condition or quality soever, barratry of the master and mariners, and of all other perils, losses, and misfortunes, that have or shall come to the hurt, detriment or damage of the said goods and merchandises, and ship, &c., or any part thereof. "

I can't remember the distinction between the two terms that we were told existed at the time when that Lloyds form was first drafted - although, of course, privateers were Government-sponsored (although they evidently directed their energies towards robbing the Spaniards, those rival imperialists of the day, rather than their own people - which would be something of a novelty today on the part of our UK and Governments now). Or maybe my memory is simply playing me false. I've googled the terms and can't find any distinction between "pirate" and "rover" or sea-rover", the latter, a term of Dutch origin and referring not to roaming, but to robbery. There's surprise, Spiralhawk.

[Joe Chi Minh]

99. Avast there, Capting! Hoist the mains'l. I've just bought the book, and I'm intrigued by that

first chapter you mentioned. It sounds "a bit special", as they say of soccer geniuses.

[SpiralHawk]

89. "Smirk. Sneer. Smirk." - Da Rover (R)

[defendandprotect]

66. Agree ---

She's probably been pushed to do this ---

What she is saying is inane --- that she recognized 6-7 years ago that he was a huge
danger to society!!!???

This is superior level BS ---

[Marie26]

83. Ivin's letters to the editor

The Fredrick News Post dug up some info from their archives, including letters to the editor that Ivins sent over the years. He appears to be a devout Catholic, opposed to euthanasia & assisted suicide. The letters are coherent & well-written. He actually wrote about how a local radio station had become too rude & offensive & racist toward African-Americans. Civility appeared to be important to him. There's also a photo of him juggling in the local St. Patrick's Day parade. THIS is the homicidal sociopath?

Ivins: Archived letters to the editor- http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78274

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Maybe she's paranoid because she tried to tell the authorities earlier,

and since they didn't do anything about it, it convinced her that someone was stalling justice in order to give a co-conspirator some cover?

[EFerrari]

6. It may be more simple than that. It may be that someone

doesn't want her talking directly to the press because she's not credible.

[wordpix]

96. according to Gerald Posner on Olbermann tonight, she had a drug problem as late as '07, yet

she was leading group counseling sessions for substance abuse. She is not a psychiatrist, she's a social worker/counselor. He also said she had filed for bankruptcy and had some other major problem---can't remember what.

[SheilaT]

5. This is the kind of behavior

that, well, might be diagnosable in some way. Periodically I've known people like this: everyone is out to get them, they can't discuss what it is that's so terrible and putting them in danger because "they" will find out and it will be worse.

It's al a convoluted kind of self-justifying circular reasoning that has no basis in fact. It is impossible to discuss anything logically with someone like this because they don't work with the kind of logic the rest of us do. And because they really believe whatever it is they're obsessed with, they're quite convincing. But there are never any facts to back up their allegations.

[Supersedeas]

7. Credibility check: spent her savings on attorneys??? She just filed for a protective order a week

ago. What fortune can you spend on attorneys for filing an initial protective order complaint, which by all appearances was filed PRO SE.

[TomInTib]

9. Not only that, but she is a social worker.

If she needed to file against a client/patient, wouldn't her Department cover costs?

I think there are parties involved that cannot have this woman out there doing interviews or making any more incredible statements.

[EFerrari]

15. She has four years of college and a certificate, no MA in Social Work.

Someone doesn't want her on talk shows?

[starroute]

32. It isn't even clear how long she's been a social worker

If she's the Jean Carol Duley of Williamsport who graduated from Hood College just last year -- and in a town of 2000 people, it's unlikely there'd be two of them with the same uncommon name -- she can't have been a certified social worker for very long.

I suppose if you're looking for someone to manipulate, the less actual experience the better.

[EFerrari]

34. Yep. And she isn't a certified Social Worker.

It looks like she earned a certificate to do drug counseling, which is a different thing altogether.

[autorank]

26. Bingo

You don't need an attorney to do this. But the conflation of that court forum and the reasons she gave for the protective order related to the alleged state of Ivins' mental health gives her story legs but with weak knees thanks to the transcript getting out. Besides, she should have been covered for this by her employer for sure, the counseling center, or by her malpractice insurance, possibly.

The great unravelling is proceeding apace.

[gatorboy]

55. See post #52

[Supersedeas]

8. "the kind of damage Dr. Ivins is capable of." So, she had first hand knowledge of the kind of damage

that Ivins is capable of...more than mere threats, but knowledge of damage.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Or, maybe, she's hiding out from the "Enquiring minds want to know" press.

[TahitiNut]

11. Too wierd to be believable.

Just who IS this Jean C. Duley. She's called a "social worker" and a "psychotherapist" and a "therapist" but no credentials are offered. Her spokesman is called her "fiance of 7 years" ... SEVEN years? Seven years? In another story,

She added that Ivins "has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer. I have that in evidence. And through my working with him, I also believe that to be very true."

Huh? What's "forensically diagnosed"?? What the fuck is that? Who the hell are the "several top psychiatrists"?? "Homicidal killer"?? That sure doesn't sound like professional, technical terminology to me.

There seems to be more than one whack-job running around. :shrug:

[LiberalHeart]

12. Maybe FBI profilers/shrinks told her that. n/t

[KoKo]

13. Her handwriting on that order of restraint was enough to make anyone

wonder about her own sanity. Her writing was doing enough zig zagging that it would flag even an amateur handwriting observer that something was very wrong with her.

[TahitiNut]

17. Most revealing is spelling "theripist" (sic)

I have a friend who does such court-ordered "counseling" for a living. I also have a friend who's a PhD psychotherapist. Believe me, the distinction couldn't be broader.

Duley is apparently part of the cottage industry of "counselors" who've sprung up in the "War on Drugs" and the "zero tolerance" for DWI/DUI. The courts are pumping out thousands upon thousands of new "customers" (mandated counseling) for these cottage industry "theripists" annually. With (less than) two years of classes at a local community college (or associate's degree factory) and the right paperwork, folks can set themselves up in business with an almost guaranteed flow of revenue. A storefront office with a counseling room - a dozen folding chairs will do nicely - and not much investment at all, and the court-ordered "customers" start flowing in.

There is no "doctor-patient confidentiality" since there's no doctor. Standard 'privacy' laws prevail ... and that's NOTHING in a group session.

There are some real hacks in that cottage industry... people with over-inflated egos and pretensions that're over the event horizon from their skills and abilities. Indeed, the resentment and hostility towards folks with full college degrees and advanced degrees runs rampant with some of these folks. It's a snake pit of neuroses.

[lonestarnot]

19. Do you have a link to the handwriting people are referring to on either this

thread or another one I just read?

[Kaleko]

33. Here's the link to my post showing photos of Duley's petition:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3719911&mesg_id=3720383

More questions about Duley's handwriting were raised in the discussion following this post.


And here's the petition again (for those who don't click on links. You know who you are ;))


page 1:




page 2:



Also see this site: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0801081anthrax3.html

[lonestarnot]

57. Thanks Kaleco.

:hi:

[Supersedeas]

14. Apparently she is a Judge too -- as she has the sociopath/homocidal foundation IN EVIDENCE

[wordpix]

95. no she's not a judge, she's a counselor and Ivins was in group sessions

[lonestarnot]

18. Isn't that another video tape diagnosis like the cat killer's?

I think it's from review of record.

[magellan]

22. If it's true he was diagnosed as a socipathic homicidal killer

...and they ALSO believed he was the perpetrator of the anthrax attacks, then why the hell wasn't this guy locked up for his own and the public's safety long ago?? Top psychiatrists don't draw such conclusions overnight; it would have taken months. Yet Ivins was obviously free enough to "commit suicide" -- which says he wasn't being monitored as closely as one would hope a "sociopathic homicidal killer" with an alleged flair for mailing anthrax would be.

Whatever the truth of the matter, this is boiling down to another one of those cases where we're witnessing either extraordinary incompetence on the part of the government or a badly woven cover-up.

[autorank]

30. This is the elephant in the corner

If, and I say if, she was part of some scheme to discredit Ivins, then I'd bet that the restraining
order hearing was way off script. It brings the quality of the mental health claims forward too quickly. It also creates a lack of credibility for the charges since she's not qualified to
diagnose these. Incompetence or cover up? Who knows but it's looking like an "off script" move
by a very junior person.

[EFerrari]

41. Who are those "top" shrinks and where are they?

:shrug:

[magellan]

42. Probably FBI, but no they're not named

...which lends another level of "hmmmm..." to the allegations against and handling of Ivins.

[EFerrari]

43. Ivins can't have been DX'd by an FBI shrink

except in absentia.

But, was he using a DoD doctor? :shrug:

[magellan]

44. Sorry

You've leaped into realms unknown to me! What's DX'd and why only in absentia?

You think they may have been DoD shrinks instead?

[EFerrari]

46. Sorry. No FBI personnel treated Ivins.

My question was, who did his doctor(s) work for? Duley said more than one shrink diagnosed him as a sociopath, right? Who is she talking about and where are they? Are they DoD personnel? How did she get that information and where did she get it? (DX = diagnosis) :shrug:

[magellan]

48. Thanks

Now I follow...And since Ivins worked for the DoD that would be logical, although the inherent conflict of interest would be troubling.

Also, if they're top shrinks in the DoD...well, let's just say I don't find that very reassuring. I'm top in my field too -- as long as you don't look further than my house! :P

Again, I have a real problem with Ivins not being charged and held in a secure location if he was indeed a "sociopathic homicidal killer".

[EFerrari]

49. I have a real problem with him being described that way

after he's dead on the word of a counselor who isn't even an M.D. :shrug:

[magellan]

50. I almost said as much

I'm reading your other posts here and agree 100% -- who is this woman and why should we accept her postmortem smears against Ivins? And if they were so sure about his guilt that they were making his life a living hell, why weren't we told about it until after he "committed suicide"? Maybe the Hatfill experience made them gun-shy about revealing names of suspects? Okay. But Hatfill was never "diagnosed" as a sociopathic homicidal killer. Ivins allegedly was, and yet he was roaming around FREE.

You really have to not be paying attention to accept any of this...And of course, as usual, most people aren't.

[EFerrari]

51. Our press sure isn't, is it?

They just repeat these claims as if they transcribed them from stone tablets. :shrug:

[wordpix]

94. good question and an important timeline from Gerald Posner on Olbernann tonight:

July 10: Ivins committed

July 16: Ivins checks himself out

July 24: Duley files complaint

As Posner asked, why is an expert in bioterrorism with known sociopathic homicidal tendencies, being watched by the FBI for the anthrax attacks, allowed to just walk out of wherever he was committed? And why did DUley wait 8 days to file a complaint if she was so fearful for her life?

:shrug:

[magellan]

97. Thank you for that

I wasn't able to catch KO tonight. The questions are numerous and glaring, but that's nothing new for this administration.

Yet another case of epic incompetence or epic fail on criminal cover-up. There are no other options.

[Supersedeas]

108. the Bush hand that does not know what the other Bush hand is doing

[autorank]

27. ThatiNut, here are her creds - entry level therapist

Here's the state criteria for her position, 18 years old, A.A. degree, must be supervised.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3722963

[TahitiNut]

36. Yup... saw that after my post above. (I have a friend doing that.)

I'm familiar with that "cottage industry." She's WAAAYYY overreaching.

[EFerrari]

37. And no one at that hearing asked her to clarify anything.

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

39. It's REALLY fishy. Far too many unanswered questions and bizarre claims.

Duley sounds like an inflated ego that slipped it's bearings ... drama queen. She's posturing far, far beyond her qualifications.

[EFerrari]

40. I can understand if the court and her attorney settled beforehand

on "We'll ask her these two questions and that will be that" were this just a normal DV case where the plaintiff needed a garden variety order.

But given the accusations she made -- he's tried to MURDER other people, really?! -- given the defendant's standing, none of this passes the smell test.

[EFerrari]

29. Or a gullible stooge with a script. n/t

[Junkdrawer]

20. Laying low while the case is closed...probably on the advice of the FBI...

...The FBI who knows what a loose cannon she is and doesn't want an incoherent interview to muddy up their nice tidy case.

[suffragette]

23. Hammer meet nail

That's likely the reason.

They are very eager to slam the lid closed on this.

[pdxmom]

21. Her entire story is crap and makes absolutely no sense. I have worked with

the mentally ill for decades, and her behavior and comments are totally unbelievable. There are about 100 questions I would have for her, were I given the opportunity to ask them.

[EFerrari]

28. None of those questions were asked in that hearing.

No one asked her to clarify anything.

I've been in those hearings and my attorney made sure that any claim I made was as concrete as possible for the Court. :shrug:

[mitchum]

24. She does seem a bit unstable and that is why her upcoming suicide will be credible

count on it

[Supersedeas]

47. Doncha think Mukasey's star witness is in safe-keeping, complete with all the Manchurian

amenities that a star witness might need?

Coaching on handling the press, padding Ivin's therapeutic file, cosmetics and reimbursements of various amounts, who knows what lenght they will go to after the Hatfill payout???

[MilesColtrane]

38. "Jean is currently at an undisclosed location"

=Cheney's crib

[EFerrari]

45. autorank, you need to find out who hospitalized Ivins.

That's the thread that needs to be pulled.

Duley couldn't have done it nor can the Court do it exactly. A doctor has to sign the orders.

[autorank]

58. Good point. And the MD's affiliations.

The Times may have a real go-getter on this since they got the tape of the restraining order hearing.

Let's treat it like a thought problem, a stretch for me;)

1. Duley's treating Ivins under the supervision of someone.
2. Ivin's psychiatrist is key (and I lost the link to his name!!!@%@^)
3. The psychiatrist can do a voluntary or involuntary hospitalization. In either case, he would have been obliged to do it since Ivins was threatening his employee, whom he presumably believed.
4. So, odds are it the psychiatrist.

Sheppherd-Pratt is a well known institution that, for mental health, is equal to or better than
Hopkins according to what some of my pals in Maryland say (vigorous argument may ensue but it's not a snake pit it my point).

"A psychiatrist described Bruce E. Ivins, a leading military anthrax researcher who worked at Fort Detrick, as homicidal and sociopathic, according to court documents. Ivins was committed to Sheppard Pratt Hospital early last month after making threats of homicidal intent, according to a peace order reviewed by The Frederick News-Post this morning."
http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?storyID=78270

Now here's what's interesting.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/26204669.html?page=2&c=y

Still, Byrne did not think the probe would result in charges being filed. "If he was about to be charged, no one who knew him well was aware of that, and I don't believe it," Byrne said.

Neighbor Bonnie Duggan, who brought her daughter, Natalie, to Ivins' home near Fort Detrick on occasion to see the family's elaborate gardens, was also incredulous at the charges.

"It's not the Bruce that I knew," Duggan said. "It doesn't jibe with anything about the Bruce that was my neighbor."
----------


There's two people: one a colleague speaking for others "who knew him well" and another a day care customer of his wife whose child was in the home several days a week. How secretive could this guy be. The negatives I've seen are he acted "god like" and the stuff form the Duley hearing. No source on the "god like" comment, that I've seen. That could be th eintroduction of a "grandiosity theme."

[EFerrari]

61. God like was a comment by one of his relatives who hasn't seen him

since the late 80s, iirc. I think, a brother.

[defendandprotect]

69. Ivins also has a brother who he's "estranged" from for decades . . .

who is really doing him dirty ---

[autorank]

72. Really. Isn't that something.

It was the brother, as I recall too. What a great relationship. I couldn't believe they were even
quoting him without saying, "In a bit of dated information, his estranged brother of 20 years said..."

[EFerrari]

75. You know what's weirdest to me? How many 62 year olds

suddenly turn up sociopathic and homicidal? Isn't that a little late for such an onset? Unless the FBI was driving him nuts on purpose, I mean.

If that was really the language his doctor used. It sounds more like a cop than a therapist, doesn't it? How many doctors do you think want to go on record calling a client a homicidal sociopath? Wouldn't a doctor usually say, "He is a danger to himself and to others" and leave it at that? That's all a court needs. :shrug:

[kwassa]

100. I heard the estranged brother interviewed on NPR

Now, he really sounded crazy. He hates his brother, and is glad he is dead. He described his brother as "weak", and took great personal pride in his strength, whatever he meant by that.

There is more to that story, too.

[EFerrari]

62. I think I heard on the audio that since Ivins went voluntary

he got to choose the facility, i.e., he didn't go to a county facility? Is that right?

We don't know, I don't think, if Duley worked for the psychiatrist or if s/he just referred Ivins to her. I can't find a doc's name or affiliation.

[Marie26]

59. Dr. Irwin?

That's the psychiatrist mentioned in the restraining order petition & it does fit. There's a forensic psychiatrist of that name practicing in Gaithersburg, MD.

Dr. David Irwin, MD -

http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/dr-david-irwin-md-1abd0590.cfm

[EFerrari]

64. Do you remember where you read that, Marie26?

Good eye! I couldn't find that.

[Marie26]

65. It was in Duley's petition

Posted by Kaleko, post #33 - "Dr. David Irwin, his psychiatrist, called him homicidal, sociopathic with clear intentions."

I really do think it's the same guy - it looks like Dr. Irwin completed his residencies at Army facilities & might be associated w/Ft. Detrick somehow. From her petition, it sounds like he was currently treating Irvin. If he did diagnose this, he'd be the one who signed the hospitalization order.

[defendandprotect]

70. "Dr. Irwin completed his residencies at Army facilities & might be associated w/Ft. Detrick

somehow" . . . .

Wow . . . connections that make me suspicious ---

[EFerrari]

78. Thank you! I wonder if there's a way to find out if a doc

is military or reserve or something.

[Marie26]

84. Not sure

I don't understand why reporters haven't talked to Dr. Irwin yet. He's the real source for the "sociopathic" diagnosis; Duley's statement is just hearsay.

[EFerrari]

85. I wonder if he is. Duley said that Ivins was diagnosed by

several doctors. And she's such a nitwit, I wonder if she was told by the FBI that this was his diagnosis and she just bought it?

[Marie26]

102. Looks like it!

The Frederick News-Post says that "she decided to get the peace order after an FBI agent working the case suggested it."

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78406

So she's already taking suggestions from the FBI, it would've been easy for the same FBI agent to reveal the diagnosis while the agent was encouraging her to seek the peace order. That would explain why we haven't heard from a psychiatrist directly. I wonder if she's lying about the threats, or if it's just that Ivins was driven crazy by that point by the constant pressure.

[autorank]

74. Thanks so much

I couldn't find it even though I knew I'd seen it. It's on a pdf.

She referred to "top psychiatrists" diagnosis him with this. I don't know what Irvin's deal is.
Be interesting to see.

Gotta be him.

[EFerrari]

76. I keep thinking of the very deep fund of shrinks and psychologists

the military had to draw on for their torture policy. Do you remember, military psychologists even fixed a special panel the APA convened -- so they could fix the APA policy around the torture practice.

If you want to screw someone up, get a military shrink or psychologist. Apparently, there's a bunch of them and at least some of them have no ethics to speak of.

[autorank]

79. There's the good APA-psychiatrists and the not good APA-psychologists

The psychiatrists said, if you do torture, you're not one of us.

The psychologists said some weasel words. The clinicians in APA were overwhelmingly opposed
to allowing anyone in who did torture. But they have a lot of academics in there and others
who are obviously ethically challenged like you said. I read about that in 'Scoop' at the time
of their convention a couple of years ago. It was fascinating.

I think the clinicians in APA should break off and tell the organization to go bye bye over this.

[EFerrari]

81. The convention was here. And one of the most vigorous

protesters is running for president this year, iirc. And you're right, psychiatrists bailed out of the whole mess a while ago.

The military provides a lot of internships and contract work for psychologists. But the torture policy was manipulated specifly by military intelligence types with the collaboration of the then APA leadership -- at least according the reporting Amy did. They convened a show panel to discuss a position on torture. The participants weren't allowed to take notes and were set to work editing a pre-fabricated position paper instead of discussing a position. The whole weekend session was a big farce with the sole goal of producing the appearance of institutional support for the government's torture practices.

[defendandprotect]

68. Haven't come upon that info . . . .

but do recall that he signed himself in ---

HOWEVER . . . in one of the early articles here it says that when the emergency crew

responded to the telephone call from his home ---

and found him "non-responsive" .... "they noticed no evidence of suicide."


AND . . .

evidently this had happened twice before --- ???

They were called to his home twice before --- !!!

Was Ivins being attacked in his home --- ???

Had he attempted suicide twice before --- ???


It was after one of those events that he was moved towards being hospitalized . . .

but I don't think there were particulars on that in the article.

[gatorboy]

52. Quit her job? Must not have been that long ago. She gave an interview around june 29 it seems.

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=76902

Originally published June 29, 2008


By Ashley Andyshak
News-Post Staff


The lifestyles of Jean Duley's clients run the gamut: long-time street drug users, those who were prescribed powerful painkillers after an injury or operation and are now addicted, and middle-class housewives who abuse prescriptions, to name a few.

"Prescription drug abuse is the biggest kept secret," said Duley, program director at Comprehensive Counseling Associates in Frederick. "It's a lot more prevalent than people can imagine."

In December, Comprehensive Counseling became one of three practices in Frederick County to prescribe suboxone, which Duley calls a "miracle drug" for those addicted to pain medication. The center now prescribes suboxone to about 50 clients.

[autorank]

56. Maybe to creat distance from her supervisor (a psychiatrist, probably) or the

place. Leaving town now isn't about Ivins, in all likelihood. If she'd done that after he'd left
Sheppard Pratt psychiatric in patient, that would have made sense. But now, nope.

Lots of places to hide up there, very open area, beautiful too.

[spanone]

53. this whole story has the smell of manure

[screembloodymurder]

54. She sacrificed?

Now I'm beginning to wonder went down here.

[Supersedeas]

60. and yet the GoP Controlled Media paints a picture of a cut and dry case--waiting for dry Mukasey

[suffragette]

63. Makes no sense, doesn't it

This whole thing reeks

[Marie26]

67. Maybe

it's the therapist & psychiatrist who really broke this case. They are the ones who have access to Irvin's confidential statements & ravings. He might have told them about what happened, or what plans he had. Then they both together went to the FBI or DOJ, had him hospitalized, & Duley took out the restraining order. Maybe that's why the DOJ finally decided to press charges now. And because they're not FBI, they could present evidence that might have been covered-up or classified by whatever smokescreen the FBI seems to be operating under. And now she's in hiding because she knows too much about possible collaborators within the government. Maybe she's not the patsy; maybe Duley & Irwin are the heroes here.

[defendandprotect]

73. The point is they can say anything now because he's dead . . .

and no autopsy ---

And this is the guy who led their investigation for them into all the samples taken

from "the letters" ---

And for 6 years they chased Hatfill ---

Common sense tells us that it is the government behaving strangely ---

they had a problem the moment the Anthrax traced back to THEM and not to Iraq ---

The guilty people are in the White House ---

Keep in mind whoever did this did it for Cheney ---

[Marie26]

80. True

The gov. is acting strangely & I pretty much believed it was some secret black-ops as well. But they both could be true - that there's a wider conspiracy & this guy is part of it. But it takes a lot to involuntarily commit someone & the court must have had good evidence from Dr. Irwin. And it would be easy to verify this, so I can't see them making up a mental illness history out of nothing. Add that to Duley's allegations, which should also be easy to verify.

It's telling that we're not hearing angry protests from the scientist's family members. And his brother is "estranged" - which, if he's a sociopath, makes sense. You usually want to stay far away from homocidal sociopaths. Didn't the brother also cooperate w/the FBI? Said Irvin thought he was "omnipotent?" And Irvin was using anthrax outside the permitted areas. Something's up there. I tend to think that he was involved in the attacks, but that he didn't act alone. Maybe he just provided the anthrax for the attackers to mail. Maybe the suicide was real, or faked to cover up & close the case. If he had some co-conspirators, that would explain why Duley feels a need to go to an "undisclosed location" now - maybe she's even in witness protection? It's a facinating mystery, at any rate.

[defendandprotect]

86. Ivins signed himself into the hospital --

As far as I know it wasn't "involuntary" ---

Further, we are hearing nothing BUT angry protests from friends and co-workers who support
Ivins and not these outrageous descriptions of him.

Further, the government obviously tried to intimidate family members taking them off
separately and holding them!

The "estranged" brother has said some really vile things --- not typical of what you would
expect from a brother.

If you had read the other info on this, you would know that it is unlikely that Ivins had
access to this type of material --- EXCEPT THAT HE WAS PUT IN CHARGE OF TESTING ALL OF
THE SAMPLES FROM 'THE LETTERS' AND PERHAPS EVEN HAD 'THE LETTERS' IN HIS OFFICE AREA.

More likely, it's more of what we've seen before -- people falsely accused --- while
the government covers up another of its own crimes.

[Marie26]

91. There's no way to know for sure

Link for voluntary commitment? I mentioned family members, who we haven't heard from publicly, except for a brother who's said bad things. Which would be typical of a bad relationship. It is possible to hide things from co-workers, which is why IMO family members would be the best source to find out his real character. The government "obviously" separated & held family members? Where is that from? Maybe he's falsely accused, maybe he's the fall guy for a wider conspiracy, or maybe he acted totally alone (but I doubt it). Everyone knows the same thing, which is nothing. Until the FBI releases some actual evidence, we're all just speculating & spinning wheels.

[EFerrari]

93. It was mentioned in the audio of Duley's hearing.

Either the attorney or the judge mentioned he chose to go voluntary and she agreed. So, it's part of the public record.

Link to the audio is in the left column:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1217787170-lMwSJKQHx6KzZ/fgXEE+KA

[Marie26]

103. On attorney's advice.

"Ivins was supposed to have a permanent commitment hearing at Sheppard Pratt, but Duley said his attorney advised him to check himself in voluntarily so that he may leave when he wished. Drawbaugh told the court he probably was being released from the hospital as the hearing was going on."

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78406

So it looks like he was scheduled for a permanent civil commitment hearing & chose voluntary instead in order to avoid involuntary commitment. Why would Sheppard Pratt schedule a commitment hearing w/o any evidence at all? W/o any psychiatric diagnosis of mental illness? And who filed for the civil commitment? IMO there had to at least be some examination by a professional before scheduling the commitment hearing. I just don't think all of the mental illness allegations are made up - but maybe it was an effect of the FBI investigation rather than a reason for the anthrax mailings.

[EFerrari]

107. There is probably a schedule mandated by law

for how long you may hold someone before releasing them, and I'm guessing a hearing would be scheduled more or less automatically based on the date of admittance.

As far as an exam, it's probable that Ivins saw a doc on the day he went in and possibly saw a doctor doing rounds during the time he was there. In order to be diagnosed, he'd need an extended exam and perhaps testing, right? :shrug:

The only person alleging mental illness is someone unqualified to diagnose. We have reports by friends that say he was upset and despirited but, given his situation, that's not abnormal. If this man had severe mental illness, he would probably be unable to function well enough to follow his lawyer's recommendation because he was in the middle of a crisis.

[EFerrari]

88. The brother is the one that sounds like he was the problem.

He went on and on about how much stronger he was than his two brothers.

And Ivins was given a choice to sign in for an eval or to have a hold put on him for the same. He chose to sign in.

I don't believe he had a thing to do with those mailings.

[MetaTrope]

104. One wonders if the brother took the FBI up on the offer they'd made to Ivins' kids

Of a cool $2+ million in ye ole bank account to testify against Ivins?

[Marie26]

105. It's strange

It's almost like he just hated Ivins & liked having a chance to call him a "wuss" in public. Very odd. I'm starting to agree that he had nothing to do w/the mailings at all.

[EFerrari]

109. Maybe he did but, it sure isn't for any of the reasons that we've been told.

So far, he just looks like someone the FBI picked on because they could. :shrug:

[Marie26]

106. dupe.nt

[AzDar]

71. Huh.

:kick:

[EFerrari]

82. Glen Greenwald confirms Duley has had 3 DUI convictions

and financial problems -- on DemocracyNow! this morning.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/4/anthrax

[MilesColtrane]

87. "at an undisclosed location" and 3 DUI convictions?

Has anyone checked to see if "Duley" is actually Cheney in a wig!?

[MadrasT]

90. Curiouser and curiouser...

:kick:

[EVDebs]

101. Maybe she's hanging out with Amanda Keller, the girlfriend of that hijacker on 9-11

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=amanda_keller

[Supersedeas]

110. wonder if we will ever learn the name of the attorneys who took her money

[NightWatcher]

111. she helped with the 1st suicide op, now she's trying to avoid being #2

I got money that says "the stress gets to her" and she does the same, minus the tylenol 3

[HillbillyBob]

112. 'This is different:' Son of scientist who died in 1953 compares cases then and now

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78408&related=true

Eric Olson knows a little about government scientists.

His father, Frank Olson, was an early researcher in the biological warfare program at Fort Detrick until he died in 1953. At the time, United States government officials said Olson's death was a suicide, and that Olson jumped or fell to his death from a high-rise hotel in New York City.

In 1975, the Rockefeller Commission discovered the CIA had slipped LSD to Olson and several other scientists just days before while they were attending a conference at Deep Creek Lake in Garrett County.

CIA spokesmen later admitted its agents were involved in an experimental drug program, but said Olson's death was an apparent suicide.

Eric Olson, who was 8-years-old when his father died, still lives in Frederick. He thinks his father, caught between the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. biological warfare program, was killed because he questioned the government's motive in biological warfare.

Now another Fort Detrick scientist, Bruce Ivins, is dead -- an apparent suicide.

"What you've got now is different," Olson said in a telephone interview Monday.

"I'm not a conspiracy theorist. My father's case has to do with the enforcement of security when you're doing morally compromising activities. It had to do with covert operations. It wasn't that he was some Detrick scientist. He was working for the CIA. He was privy to what the CIA was doing."

Olson has spent much of his life trying to prove that his father's death was not a suicide. "My father was a pioneer in this kind of research of anthrax," he said.

The FBI's case against Bruce Ivins, however, might be watertight, Olson said.

"If this guy isn't the guy, the guy who did these letters must be something like this."

What's notable about anthrax, as his father knew in 1953 and scientists like Ivins know today, is that deadly spores last, he said.

The federal government has been under pressure to solve the 2001 case, in which anthrax-laced letters killed five people and sickened 17 others, Olson said.

"You can't solve the case without it coming from the government itself," he said. "There was incredible pressure to solve it for the public at large. After seven years, they still don't know who it was. That is not reassuring. I thought this case was going to dribble out in the sand."

Olson said his father knew too much, but this case is different.

"Sometimes, things are what they seem."

[HillbillyBob]

113. 'This is different:' Son of scientist who died in 1953 compares cases then and now

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78408&related=true

Eric Olson knows a little about government scientists.

His father, Frank Olson, was an early researcher in the biological warfare program at Fort Detrick until he died in 1953. At the time, United States government officials said Olson's death was a suicide, and that Olson jumped or fell to his death from a high-rise hotel in New York City.

In 1975, the Rockefeller Commission discovered the CIA had slipped LSD to Olson and several other scientists just days before while they were attending a conference at Deep Creek Lake in Garrett County.

CIA spokesmen later admitted its agents were involved in an experimental drug program, but said Olson's death was an apparent suicide.

Eric Olson, who was 8-years-old when his father died, still lives in Frederick. He thinks his father, caught between the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. biological warfare program, was killed because he questioned the government's motive in biological warfare.

Now another Fort Detrick scientist, Bruce Ivins, is dead -- an apparent suicide.

"What you've got now is different," Olson said in a telephone interview Monday.

"I'm not a conspiracy theorist. My father's case has to do with the enforcement of security when you're doing morally compromising activities. It had to do with covert operations. It wasn't that he was some Detrick scientist. He was working for the CIA. He was privy to what the CIA was doing."

Olson has spent much of his life trying to prove that his father's death was not a suicide. "My father was a pioneer in this kind of research of anthrax," he said.

The FBI's case against Bruce Ivins, however, might be watertight, Olson said.

"If this guy isn't the guy, the guy who did these letters must be something like this."

What's notable about anthrax, as his father knew in 1953 and scientists like Ivins know today, is that deadly spores last, he said.

The federal government has been under pressure to solve the 2001 case, in which anthrax-laced letters killed five people and sickened 17 others, Olson said.

"You can't solve the case without it coming from the government itself," he said. "There was incredible pressure to solve it for the public at large. After seven years, they still don't know who it was. That is not reassuring. I thought this case was going to dribble out in the sand."

Olson said his father knew too much, but this case is different.
"Sometimes, things are what they seem."

I wonder that maybe Dr Ivins knew too much as well and was hounded to death for threatening to divulge? or maybe he was 'suicided' just for the sake of being used as a patsy