My two cents on the Anthrax Suicide… from a former spook

[NightWatcher]

His neighbors say that they knew that he was under surveillance because they parked the SV's (surveillance vehicles) in front of their houses on numerous occasions.

His was a classic "suicide op" in which the subject is surveilled OVERTLY. He is harassed until it drives him crazy. He is threatened with jail and prosecution like the Sword of Damacles was hanging over his head. He is "reminded" that if he goes to jail (and/or is executed) that his family will not receive any of his pension, insurance, retirement..... While his suicide probably voided any private insurance, his family will still not get benefits from the government.

Agents had reached his therapist and were getting the evidence to discredit his name and any defense that he might wage against the charges he was being threatened with. He was also being prepped for discreditation in the event that he turned "whistle blower".

His "suicide" was an excellent Operation by those who either were responsible for the original anthrax or who wanted to make the story go away by putting the blame on him.


Questions:

If Bruce Ivins was the main suspect, why hadn’t we heard anything about the Anthrax case in nearly seven years?
Why was Steven Hatfield able to successfully sue the US Government for harassment and violation of his civil liberties just a couple of months ago?
Did the government lean on Ivins just as they leaned on Hatfield, but Hatfield was able to get out from under the pressure by putting the pressure back on the government?

fwiw, I used to work in the "discrediting" field many years ago and have seen this done a few times, and this appears to have followed the SOP (standard operating procedure).

No autopsy huh, oh well I guess the case is closed and ready to be sent down the memory hole.

[stubtoe]

1. Recommending. n/t

[Supersedeas]

2. you can bet the Corp Media will stay very far from any follow-up questions (Mukasey will demand it)

[tblue37]

43. Simple self-preservation will also demand it, I should think. n/t

[Enthusiast]

147. Like I said, anyone

That knows where the skeletons are buried will be knocked off before Bush leaves office. Killing individuals means nothing to this crew. They are as evil as any group of human beings to ever inhabit this planet.

[navarth]

3. This whole deal smells funny.

These convenient 'suicides' don't wash.

[Eurobabe]

5. kind of like David Kelly n/t

[Gregorian]

102. Dr. Kelley has been going over and over in my mind.

I've been holding back saying anything. But these cases are just too similar.

[Eurobabe]

149. Scary, isn't it.

I've been watching too many episodes of MI-5.

[monmouth]

4. Worthy of a Pacino film (think of his "Insider" role on the whistleblower

for the tobacco giants).... This poor soul is out of his misery and had a lot of help I'm sure. Thanks for your very informative post. Get the writers on this, great film ahead...

[cadaverdog]

81. Actually, the movie that comes to mind for me is

"Michael Clayton," and the character is played by Tom Wilkinson as brilliant lawyer Arthur Edens, representing a huge agro-chemical corporation being hit by a class action suit. Attorney Edens has a bipolar breakdown, which leads to a good deal of embarrassment for his firm, and two nasty-types are brought in to silence him in one of the most chilling execution scenes ever brought to screen. Of course his death is listed as a suicide.

Don't curse me if you think I have spoiled the film for you, I've seen it twice and look forward to viewing it again in the near future. This is one terrific movie.

[chatnoir]

134. Excellent film

Watching that scene brought to mind David Kelley and all the others they have suicided. The ease, speed and efficiency was shocking to behold.

The agro-chemical corp in the film was supposedly based on Monsanto.

Great movie.

[sellitman]

6. This only goes away if we let it.

I know I don't believe he had a thing to do with the scandal.

It just doesn't pass the smell test.

[donco6]

7. The media seems to have closed the book on him.

At least, from watching CNN, that's what one would think.

[Celebration]

8. not only that

His colleagues seriously doubt that as a vaccine expert he had the expertise to make weaponized anthrax.

[MorningGlow]

9. Proud to give rec #5

Thanks for posting your professional assessment of the situation, NightWatcher. It verifies what a lot of DUers have been discussing.

As someone asked last night, how did an unstable person with a "known history" of homicidal threats be allowed to work with toxins on a government base--for that many years?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Good timing, too, as the BFEE starts cleaning house and wrapping up (killing off) loose ends JUST IN CASE they can't continue their reign of terror.

[rwenos]

10. Suspicious Factors

1. The timing (5 months before the end of the Bush Administration).
2. The proximity of this guy to the prior suspect.
3. The lack of information about the investigation for so many years.
4. The unanimity of the targets - i.e., all Democrats.
5. The lack of an autopsy (this is HUGE). Why wouldn't there be an autopsy of the target of a major FBI investigation? To hell with what the family wants.
6. The lack of any information about the MEANS of the suicide. Pills? Pistol? Carbon monoxide?
7. No explanation of the overt surveillance.


This smells as bad as Kenny Lay's disappearance. But the stakes are much higher.

[willing dwarf]

14. iI thought they said it was an OD of Tylenol and something else...

[lligrd]

16. Codeine, But In Any Other OD An Autopsy Would Be Performed

Why not this time. Case stinks.

[Supersedeas]

76. Timing, Proximity, Secrecy, Political Targets, Motives & Initial Propoganda

Timing - the timing of his 'therapists' complaint and the content of the complaint seems suspect

Proximity - like rolling the dice with any of the bio-weapons scientists at Ft Detrick (they just found one who cracked under pressure and then the Media presumes guilt)

Secrecy - for almost 7 years, the DoJ has let this linger (now we have a super-secret conclusion to their investigation: dead suspects can't talk)

Political Targets - spot on here, barely ANY mention in the GoP Corp Media Establishment of this odd fact especially when combined with the content of the letters pointing to Islamists and the now crystal clear fact that the Admin tried to pin this on Iraq as more fodder for pre-emptive war.

Motives & Initial Propoganda - Again, take a look at the letters that were part of the scare tactics of the Anthrax attacks. Take a look at the Admin pretext for War with Iraq and their use of the 'opportunity' to push waiving DEMS into War. IT STINKS. Not only that, but apparently the 'suspect' was a regular writer to the Editorial pages where he espouse rightwing fundamentalist garbage. Imagine the HEAT, like a friggin laser beam, that would have come down on an Islam 'suspects' place of worship, and yet barely anyone is asking in the 'investigative journalistic' ranks, where the guy attended Church.

[Muttocracy]

79. ...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

116. BINGO, CITIZEN

[tabatha]

11. Tidied up and closed permanently before Bush/Cheney exit.

[jwirr]

48. Along with a lot of other evidence. They are covering up everything.

I only pray they miss enough for us to work with if not now at lease in history books.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

117. BINGO, CITIZEN

[peacetalksforall]

125. Put options were closed fast. I remember the laid back curt absolution from Ashcroft.

Why did they drag this out for years?
Why didn't they suicide him after we knew the war was a lie? They don't care what we think. They only care about independent journalists, not NYT NBC and all the other corporate papers and networks who work with and for Chency and his barons.

[mmonk]

167. Yes. It is very CONVENIENT that this case is being closed up

before bush's exit stage door left.

[formercia]

12. I concur

Having been the target of one of these discreditation operations for many years, I can agree from first-hand experience, what it is like to be the 'rabbit.' Most people commit suicide. I decided to be a pain in the ass instead.

[barbtries]

161. i'd love to hear your story

if you have told it previously here perhaps there's a link or two? thanks

[formercia]

164. Here's one from my journal

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/formercia/180

Thanks for caring.


and here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[KoKo]

13. I wonder

who found him. One report said he was found "in distress" at l:00 a.m. Who found him? Article never said...it was from the hometown newspaper. Isn't it usual to say who found a person in "distress" at l:00 a.m....and who took him to the hospital?

Also interesting...he was a "Juggler" and started a "Juggling Group in his hometown." He was a "keyboard player and cleaned up after mass" at his local church. I wonder how long he'd been doing that. If it was a long time, surely someone would have noticed if he was behaving strangely. And, what about "handwriting experts." Wouldn't the FBI have samples of his writing to trace the "block printed letters" on the notes that were sent to figure out if there were similarities?

[defendandprotect]

15. Thanks for your comments . . .

I was just reading the latest from AP -- and quite a team of writers!

Though this is a man who worked for the government for 35 years with top honors from Pentagon . . .
we're now supposed to believe this . . .??

Ivins' friends, colleagues and court documents paint a picture of a flourishing scientist with an emotionally unstable side. Maryland court documents show he recently received psychiatric treatment and was ordered to stay away from a woman he was accused of stalking and threatening to kill.

Social worker Jean C. Duley filed handwritten court documents last week saying she was preparing to testify before a grand jury. She said Ivins would be charged with five capital murders.

"Client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats, plans and actions towards therapists," Duley said, adding that his psychiatrist had described him as homicidal and sociopathic.

I think the "no autopsy" makes clear that this is another patsy ---









Suicide latest twist in 7-year anthrax saga

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/a...

[Celebration]

20. all that came up after he was targeted

There could have been some mind control going on--not only by traditional means but maybe something electromagnetic too.

Or, he could have been guilty. The problem is, it is just impossible to tell.

This is very suspicious that it is coming at the end of the Bush term.

[defendandprotect]

21. I didn't include it, but . . . .

I'm just reading "Truth at Last" by John Larry Ray --- James Earl Ray's brother ---

and he says JER was also CIA "patsy" . . . and had been shuffled thru McGill for hypnosis.

This article today - and notice the team of writers! -- reminds me of those background slurs

we've seen over the years - Oswald, for one -- while in fact he was CIA AND their "patsy."

Agree with you that right now it's impossible to tell --- and we have to rely on those who

continue to investigate this stuff.

[Supersedeas]

77. other mind altering drugs -- apparently his 'therapist' is a drug counselor

[defendandprotect]

119. ... sadly we've seen medical professionals working with the CIA, etc. . .

psychiatrists helping to find ways to frighten people out of their minds.

Shameful ---

Maybe she gave him something to cause problems --- but she certainly looks

like a sore thumb here in his life --- and note the comments by the "estranged"

brother --- !!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. "Client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats,...'

And yet, he was cleared to work with bio-weapons at Ft Detrick?

Uh huh.

[Muttocracy]

57. where are the witnesses to decades of this behavior? other than this one

supervisor at the clinic - who I think wasn't even his direct therapist?

[csziggy]

114. Google Jean C Duley - the only hits I could get were mentions in THIS story

For a person in business, even doctors, there is generally a few hits. Telephone listing for their office, participation in community events, something. This lady - nothing that I could find except for this one internationally reported case.

Sort of strange....

[barbtries]

162. that is interesting

you can't google anyone in my family without getting a few hits. that is weird. this whole case really really stinks.

[pleah]

17. Yep. They have their

victim/guilty party taken care of. Case closed.

[lligrd]

18. Yep, If They Could Have Gotten Hatfield To Suicide Himself

(or gotten the opportunity to help him along), the case would have been closed long ago.

[yardwork]

19. Thank you.

Either way, this looks really bad for the Bush administration, a point being ignored by the media. Either

1. The Bush administration allowed a homicidal maniac they suspected of mass murder to continue working with weapons of mass destruction for seven years or

2. They just killed somebody and are making shit up to make it look like they allowed a homicidal maniac they suspected of mass murder to continue working with weapons of mass destruction for seven years.

Either way, looks like criminal negligence or something worse to me.

[AntiFascist]

26. The really sad thing is that there is no investigative reporting...

other than that being done on obscure liberal websites. The CIA-controlled media has received their talking points and they will continue pushing them until the sheep-like populace conforms.

[yardwork]

41. The corporate-owned media, you mean.

The huge corporations that own the media now benefit from the Bush administration. Fascism is good for their bottom line. They don't want people to know the truth. It might encourage socialism~

[Muttocracy]

52. just heard a good NPR report - Ivin's colleagues are NOT buying it

will post a link as soon as I find it.

on edit - posted summary out here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[AntiFascist]

174. Very interesting !

I would imagine that some of his colleagues might have more of an inside scoop.

[Supersedeas]

111. our local rag has the AP piece that quotes a victim declaring the suicide as prove of guilt

there's your investigative reporting

[Mme. Defarge]

22. Recommended -- n/t

[pacalo]

23. Such a well-written OP, I was looking for a "link" to read more.

There have been so many "suicides" in the last 8 years, that it's obvious to those of us who have kept up with the corruption through underground news. It's the people who have missed the (cleaned up) story blurbs buried on page 18 that may not get it.

There truly is a shadow government run by money-worshipping, power-hungry Rethugs, isn't there? Why else would the media go along with everything this adminstration does?

[sojourner]

54. you have nailed it... so many really, really convenient suicides....lucky Adminitration, eh?

They make me so madddddd............argh. getting hard to think of it ever being different. loss of hope, terrible consequence of this particular nightmare.

[Virginia Dare]

86. Bush and Cheney are the luckiest SOB's that ever lived..

they needed a "Pearl Harbor" type event to advance the neocon agenda, and voila, they get 9/11. They need to beat Congress into submitting to the Patriot Act and the conduct of their war on Iraq and voila they get the anthrax attacks. Things always work out rather conveniently for them.

[benddem]

24. naming him as the

terrorist...doesn't answer the question...Why did he pick Daschle and Leahy's offices and the media?
Some say he wanted to get his anthrax vaccine patented. Doesn't make sense.

[EFerrari]

25. It took Hatfil years to set the record straight.

I'm surprised he made it in mostly one piece.

[Muttocracy]

58. Seems to me like Hatfill didn't play according to plan and cave. nt

[Supersedeas]

106. so they found another target that would crumble--in time to close the case

[autorank]

27. k*r EXCELLENT

So if the neighbors knew, he knew.

No autopsy. WTF. This is Maryland. They know how to do things properly. It sounds like they got to
his family too because all they had to do was ask.

Your point on the perps being good suspects is very well taken.

How come we have to ask these questions? Isn't somebody else supposed to be on top of this?
(Rhetorical questions, obviously)

[Muttocracy]

60. Just heard an NPR report about them interrogating family

link posted elsewhere in this thread. Saw a woman interviewed on MSNBC or somewhere last night, a neighbor talking about how the FBI cars were outside the house often and everyone knew who it was.

[autorank]

103. A message, not lost on those watching, perhaps.

http://dbm.maryland.gov/dbm_publishing/public_content/d...

"In 2007 the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner investigated 10,180 cases. Based on date of death, 24% (9,885) of the estimated 41,890 deaths that occurred in Maryland in 2007 were identified as Medical Examiner cases, Annotated Code Health-General §5-309 (as of 1-17-08).

On investigation, 42% of these cases (4,128) required an autopsy, in accordance with Health General §5-310(b)(1), to determine the cause of death. This represented a decrease of 191 autopsies over 2006 figures.

Two categories of violent deaths: Accidents and Firearms, decreased from the 2006 year’s totals.

However, three categories of non-natural deaths, homicides, suicides, and fire fatalities increased.

2007 2006 Percent Change
Accidents (MVA’s) 617 679 -9.0%
Homicides 577 575 +0.3%
Firearm – caused 662 684 -3.0%
Fire fatalities 120 86 +40.0%
Suicides 508 492 +3.0%

Wonder if this was a "medical examiner's case" and, if so, why no autopsy?

CHAPTER 69
(House Bill 394)
AN ACT concerning
State Postmortem Examiners Commission – Office of the Chief Medical
Examiner – Postmortem Examiners Law


) (1) If the medical examiner who investigates a medical examiner’s
case considers an autopsy necessary, the Chief Medical Examiner, Medical Examiner,] A DEPUTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, an assistant medical
examiner, or a pathologist authorized by the Chief Medical Examiner shall perform
the autopsy.

[Kaleko]

28. Why was a known "homicidal sociopath" allowed to keep his Security Clearance in a military lab?

At what time, if ever, was Ivin's Security Clearance revoked due to these suspicions???


Anthrax Suspect Was "Homicidal, Sociopathic" - August 1, 2008:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0801081...





page 2 http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0801081...

[yy4me]

33. Who is the Einstein that wrote the notes at the bottom? I think

my 8 year old granddaughter can compose(and spell) a better notation than this mess.

Curiouser and Curiouser

[Kaleko]

40. Look at the clean elegance of Duley's signature

in contrast to the deranged-looking scribbles on these forms. They seem to have been written by one (or two) entirely different hands.

Note that a supposed counselor/therapist spells her own profession "theripist"!

And would an educated person write: "I have been subpoena..."?


But here comes the kicker, we are now asked to believe that top notch scientist Dr. Bruce Ivins was a fundamentalist Muslim when he sent this note along with the anthrax that would immediately incriminate his own military lab!?!







What scares me is that these Dickwads act as if they KNOW they can get away with such obvious false flag ops.

And they have been, so far. Haven't they?

[Supersedeas]

113. and McRove went straight to Letterman declaring Iraq the source, and phase II

[librechik]

185. Don't be silly--why if anyone tried a conspiracy like this, everyone would know about it!

and they do. "No one could keep a secret like that!"

And they haven't. And they don't care. becasue even though everyone knows they did it, no one "believes they could have done it."

Worked like a charm, and still working.

[file83]

34. Because he wasn't a sociopath or homicidal - it's all part of operation.

We are to believe that thi "Dr. David Irwin", Ivin's psychiatrist, violated client confidentiality by telling Jean C. Duley his patient was "homicidal & sociopathic".

These papers were filed so that this "hearsay" anecdotal story (completely unsubstantiated) about Ivin's mental instability goes on public record. From there the discrediting of Ivin takes on a natural progression by the media.

The fact of the matter, is this Jean C. Duley never would have been given access to Ivin's psychiatrist's (Dr. David Irwin) medical diagnosis for a simple petition of a restraining order. Only the FBI could get that as part of the subpoena process in building their case against Irvin.

So either it's true (homicidal/sociopath) and he FBI used Jean C. Duley's petition to sneak the discreditation of Irvin into the public record (because they weren't allowed to do it by law), or the other option, is that the accusation (homicidal/sociopath) is completely fabricated because she never would have had access to that info in the first place and she was given those "hints" by the FBI so that the suggestion would make it into the public record.

[Kaleko]

42. Good points. Note that Duley calls Dr. Ivins a "client", though.

[screembloodymurder]

62. She worked for his employer.

I don't believe he was a client.

[MorningGlow]

44. Exactly.

And filed only days before his death. How conveeeenient.

[Muttocracy]

56. ok, that's one of my questions - Duley wasn't his therapist, right?

she's the supervisor of the clinic or something? And she is the one who's claiming this goes back to grad school for him?

[Kaleko]

72. According to this article on Huffpo, Duley was a social worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/01/anthrax-scient...

Quote:

Ivins worked at the Army's biological warfare defense labs at Fort Detrick, Md., for 35 years until his death on Tuesday. He was one of the government's leading scientists researching vaccines and cures for anthrax exposure. But he also had a long history of homicidal threats, according to papers filed last week in local court by a social worker.

Again, Jean Duley writing that Ivins had "a long history of homicidal threats" does not match standard govmt. requirements for working at a lab handling weapons-grade anthrax for 35 years!


Hell, the military wouldn't allow a janitor close to these facilities if he had "a long history of homicidal threats."

[Jazzgirl]

39. That hand written statement at the bottom is weird.

This woman is supposed to be a "theripist" and can't spell it correctly??!!?? Also, it is the weirdest mix of cursive and printed writing. It looks schizophrenic. If anybody has any long-term (since grad days) issues, it might be this woman. She certainly does have issues.....

[gatorboy]

50. It's also neither signed nor dated.

Too convenient.

[file83]

75. Well, perhaps we are supposed to assume that it was written on the back

of the petition, which was signed and dated.

Even so, any addendum to a court form, especially if it's written on the back needs to have additional signatures and dates. This is to prevent bogus information from being added without authority of the petitioner.

[Kaleko]

96. Duley's petition shows dates.

Look at the vertical stamp on the left of the document (from your point of view). You'll see Jul 12.
At the top of the 1st page there's a file number and year: 2008.


It's signed by Duley alone. And her signature doesn't match the rest of her alleged writings at all.

Whether that writing more closely matches the capital letters on the anthrax threat notes by an ostensible Muslim, I can't say.

What's clear is that none of these pieces add up to make a believable story for more institutions & corporations than we can shake a stick at.

[Kaleko]

176. Correction: Duley's petition is dated July 21, 2008

See the vertical month-day-time stamp on the right hand side (left from viewer's POV) under "RECEIVED".

The year is typed into the second line from the top.


Page 1:






Just for the records of all our sleuths.

[JDPriestly]

92. I do not mean to disparage drug therapists, however, I know

a couple of drug therapists (not in a professional capacity. They are just ubiquitous in L.A.) who are recovering users. This is a question that should be asked about this particular social worker/therapist.

[JDPriestly]

90. Does this look like the printing on the anthrax letters or not?

[Kaleko]

97. Not sure that even an accredited graphologist could tell from these samples.

[RedLetterRev]

165. A-way back when

and again, saying what I can say, people with "histories" were most certainly not allowed to hold clearances. Period. That was sorted out in the BI (background investigation). If that "history" was somehow not detected at that point for preliminary clearance, then it most certainly (and I must stress most certainly) would have been detected during the SBI (special background investigation) before access was allowed to particularly sensitive materials or information.

Such would have been the case here. Or I should think.

Now, I have been a civilian for 30 years and my memory isn't the greatest, but I'm not entirely toopit, either. I have since moved on to data analysis. (The rules are much the same.) But I clearly remember people losing access over divorce, hints of affairs, being gay (OH NOES!), seeing a professional counselor for even the least of mental or emotional problems, or even excessive traffic violations (oh, yes indeedy!). Investigations where swift, quiet and thorough. If allegations were proven, the person was gone and there was someone else working by your side.

Particular circumstances weren't discussed out of respect for the person's dignity (not bandied in the papers) and a quick internal briefing may have been given as to why it was important to give our continued attention to our jobs and why it was important to uphold our oaths to the Constitution, but that was about it. It wasn't fodder for tabloids. We did our parts because of loyalty to the Constitution and for the love of our country and fellow citizens.

A good part of warfare is psychological. The reason is that you don't ever give anyone who might have reason to exploit a perceived weakness in the system, a reason to exploit that perceived weakness. It's like the rule of the jungle. Part of being strong is appearing strong. Advertising a weakness (such as in this case) gives any enemy anywhere the perception that your internal structure is entirely in disarray and that you might not be able to respond if attacked. What message is BushCo giving with this circus? To my mind, it isn't a comforting one any way I look at it, or have looked at it since this story began unfolding.

I would wish to feel that my respect and love for the Constitution is shared by those who have responsibility for and stewardship of it. I promised and still am loyal to that same oath to the Constitution.

So you can't tell me that this dude worked for years with a known history that long with sensitive, even dangerous materiel if it was even hinted anywhere at all (even by word of mouth) that he had made a threat in passing to anyone, anywhere. Don't care who y'are. I was the least of the least of the least and they would have replaced me or a full-bull colonel equally quickly for stepping across well-marked boundaries.

If one gave a casual threat in passing, that is all it took to have that one's clearance pulled way-back-when and I heartily doubt that it would be any different now. They say times change, but in responsible handling of very sensitive things, I kinda doubt it.

Unless in Bushworld, the intelligence and weapons materiel field has become sloppier than your average landfill. Sigh.

[JDPriestly]

175. Your statement makes sense. I expect our government to safeguard such weapons.

A careless or mentally disturbed person with access to weapons of mass destruction such as this anthrax could start a world war. Surely preventing such a possibility is the whole point of our defense system including intelligence.

Thank you for your loyalty to the Constitution. Most people have never even read it I am sorry to say.

[RedLetterRev]

180. My loyalty to the Constitution is exactly why I am upset

with the RW and with this administration. How can the RW profess to be such "patriots" then be so willing to throw their rights away? Not me, buddy. All ten of those Amendments and all of the Articles are precious heirlooms. The Amendments that follow to refine and extend liberty and justice are icing on the cake, to be equally protected IMHO.

How can the administration purport to "export democracy" when their every action demonstrates that they are destroying exactly that at home. It's not as if they're exactly covering their tracks. Over the last thirtyish years, since Papi took over the CIA, they've gotten more crooked, but more amateurish, more arrogant -- and more sloppy. The fingerprints are all over the place, just as if you'd given a bunch of kids ice cream and driven them home in your expensive car. Only this expensive car happened to be our country.

What a f*cking mess. Big eyes and "I didn't do it" ain't cuttin' it. Just like there is a limit to how many sticky ice-cream fingers one can load into a back seat, there are only so many stick ice-cream fingers in Defense, the CIA or anywhere else that would have motive or opportunity to make a certain string of messes since Papi and his boys took over.

Indeed, those safeguards you spoke of were put in place then and I must believe that they are still in place now to protect both intelligence and physical materiel. (Unless a very few neocon insiders who've already been named elsewhere were able to bypass them. Think "missing nukes".) To hear propaganda to the contrary isn't just a red flag. It should be an entire fireworks display to the wary.

Just a theory, but I don't think it's mine alone.

[JDPriestly]

181. I'm with you on this. It's the lies and corruption and the perversion of our Constitution.

[jazzjunkysue]

173. Ok. My rule: "When the actions don't match the words, you've found them out."

1. Either they intentionally used this guy because the case was already made that he's a powder keg, and their alibi is secured.

or-
2. They're total screw-ups, giving high level clearance to a nutjob.

Either way, they actually are abdicating responsibility for both the anthrax and the death.

I have always believed in several conspiracy theories, but I never imagined that the anthrax might be a domestic terror campaign against our own citizens.

So far I was right about:
1. 9/11: LIHOP
2. Rigged elections
3. PNAC Imperialism: Neo-Con World domination/instability agenda.
4. Iraq War=Oil market grab

So, add the anthrax domestic agenda. Pretty darn scary stuff, right here in Moscow...

[Peace Patriot]

29. I find these kind of Bushite crimes even harder to stomach than their slaughter of

100,000 people to get their oil. At least the 100,000 can go in peace. Not the maimed, of course. And there will be blowback, because those 100,000 are connected to millions of others--friends, relatives, sympathizers--who have thousand year old memories for grudges. The dead don't have to worry about it any more, either way, is all I'm saying.

But to torture a man for seven years. Also, in Guantanamo--four-five years of torture--and in torture dungeons around the world. And others like Ivins, Bushite targets and patsies, driven mad. These are worse crimes than murder. They are crimes against the soul, and they bespeak a medieval sensibility, of the kind that can slowly drive screws into peoples' heads, or pull out of their fingernails, or stretched their bodies until their limbs come unstuck, or burn them at the stake.

I once did some research on an ancient crime--415 AD, the death of a woman named Hypatia, the last of the Greek philosophers and mathematicians, and the last head of the Alexandria Library, an extraordinarily erudite and beloved teacher (she even taught Catholic bishops of the better kind, such as Bishop Sinesius of Ptotemais, with whom she exchanged many letters). Her death was ordered by the first Catholic bishop to call himself a "patriarch" (Bishop Cyril of Alexandria, still considered a "saint" by the Catholic Church). He was the worser kind of bishop--power-hungry, ambitious, greedy. (He drove the Jews from Alexandria and confiscated their property.) A mob of Catholic monks, who took their orders from Cyril, assaulted Hypatia on the street, and didn't just kill her. They skinned her alive. Why? Because, at that time, it was thought that being flayed to death prevented your soul from going to Heaven.

They didn't want to just kill her; they wanted to extinguish her very spirit--send her to Hell, make her unrecognizable to God, rob her of her very identity, and erase her from human memory. And they almost succeeded--but for the survival of Sinesius' letters and a few accounts.

To drive someone to suicide (if that's how Ivins died), by a seven-year persecution, is like killing the soul. In Catholic theology, suicides cannot go to Heaven, and cannot even be buried in sacred ground. For a Catholic, it is the ultimate sin.

The death of someone's soul--killed for power, for money, to cover up other heinous crimes, or for sadistic pleasure--is a particularly horrifying thing to contemplate. Death itself is not as horrifying. It is slow death that is the most horrifying. The death of the spirit.

Some folks may not believe in the soul--or in the afterlife of the soul. But I think all can agree that there is something special about the human mind, personality, and--dare I say--spirit. We know it when we see it. A person's energy, positive outlook, ability to recover from set-backs, freedom, creativity, humor, delight. Sometimes we see it sucked out of the old, because of physical ailments--although old people can also retain their...spark of life, their spirit, despite ailments. True grit? Life force? Chi? We have a lot of names for it. It is plainly visible when you see someone die. The spark leaves. And it is far more than motion and activity--or the functions of the heart or the kidneys or the bowels. There was something there that was more than the sum of its bodily parts, and it is gone. We may not all agree on what happens next. But I think we probably all agree that what animated that person was not mechanistic and not easily explainable--no matter how much we delve into it with scientific methods. Something similar is true of animal deaths, but it is not the same. This is why murdering a human is a crime--and killing an animal generally is not.

So, to persecute and damage a human spirit is a particularly heinous crime, in my view. The Bushites are guilty of this many times over. And they are also guilty of dragging others into it--such as FBI agents, their torture crews, their mercenaries, their bullied, blackmailed or bribed politicians, young soldiers placed in difficult situations and told to shoot first and ask questions later, the young lawyers they've dragged out of Bible School to do their bidding in the DoJ. They are harming the spirits of their operatives, as well as their particular targets.

It is appalling.

[shireen]

153. excellent post

deserves its own thread. wish i could recommend it.

[BeHereNow]

30. Physician who worked with Ivins is pointing to the Justice Dept...

"The anthrax letters did not test anyone's vaccine. For people exposed to the anthrax letters, anthrax vaccine was given in three doses over 4 weeks. It takes about 4-6 weeks after vaccinations start before recipients develop levels of antibodies to anthrax that may be protective.

The vaccine's label even points out that anthrax vaccine is NOT a treatment for anthrax and does not provide protection for acute exposures. You need to take antibiotics while waiting for vaccine protection to develop...and because vaccine protection is variable, and depends on each person's ability to mount a protective immune response, antibiotics are a much more reliable protection, even after 2-3 doses of vaccine have been administered and 4-6 weeks have gone by.

So no scientist would send anthrax letters to "test a vaccine." It's a ridiculous theory.

Did the person who fed this idea to the media (in a desperate attempt to create a motive that could implicate Bruce Ivins) have anything to do with the anthrax letters? Or perhaps work for the Justice Department?"

http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com /

BHN

[file83]

36. EXACTLY!!! We can also strike the other conspiracy theory that Irvin did it for $$$...

because he only stood to gain perhaps tens of thousands of dollars, not millions of dollars:

From the L.A. Times - read more...

"Some proportion would have been shared with the inventors," said the executive, who spoke anonymously because of contractual confidentiality. "Ivins would have stood to make tens of thousands of dollars, but not millions."

So a few thousand dollars isn't enough of a motive to risk your life's work, freedom, family disgrace, & an unscientific "experiment" as you mentioned.

[Muttocracy]

61. interesting. nt

[Supersedeas]

127. is Mukasey in charge of what the DoJ leaks to the Media?

[Muttocracy]

137. him or Cheney I guess. Interesting this happens after the oversight hearings too. nt

[mamameow]

31. suicide!!!????

about life insurance--if the policy has been in force for more than 2 years, then suicide cannot cancel benefits. i think he has been insured for more then 2 years, which is the contestable period.

why would a scientist with access to quicker and fool proof methods, choose tylenol with codeine??? sounds like this would be the method by someone without access that ivins would have had. the perps would not have used what ivins had access to but also would not have used what ivins did not have access to. the perps had to link the method to ivins but not endanger themselves by using what ivins had access to.

he was a threatening whistle blower and had to be taken out and neutralized.

[defendandprotect]

65. Those who responded . . "saw no signs of suicide" . . .

And this was the THIRD response like this --- !!!

Had he been attacked in his home twice before --- ?

Had he attempted suicide twice before --- ?

I agree he knew something that was a threat to them ---

[alfredo]

32. I was also in the business. I collected info.

OK job if you like hours and hours of crushing boredom interspersed with flashes of fear.

With Daschle and Leahy out of the way, control of the senate would return to the Republicans and all planned investigations of Enron (price gouging) and 9-11 would go away.

[file83]

37. You mean like...

OK job if you like hours and hours of crushing boredom interspersed with flashes of fear.

You mean like...being married?

[alfredo]

38. yes

[defendandprotect]

67. They certainly targeted Daschle .. .

Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle bade a poignant farewell Friday to a career in Congress, a soft-spoken appeal for "the politics of common ground" after a historic re-election defeat engineered by Republicans casting him as a relentless obstructionist.

And I quite remember his talking with the press pointing out how Repugs had demonized him as
"Satan" --- true and probably understatement!

I'd like to see that discussion again --- he felt really personally threatened.

And, of course, Leahy and Daschle were being personally threatened ---

We have "lunatics running government" --- and Democrats may simply be unable/? to do anything
about it???

[screembloodymurder]

104. Congress was threatened.

"Let us pray that our nation's leaders will not be overcome with fear. Because today there is great fear in our great Capitol. And this must be understood before we can ask about the shortcomings of Congress in the current environment. The great fear began when we had to evacuate the Capitol on September 11. It continued when we had to leave the Capitol again when a bomb scare occurred as members were pressing the CIA during a secret briefing. It continued when we abandoned Washington when anthrax, possibly from a government lab, arrived in the mail. It continued when the Attorney General declared a nationwide terror alert and then the Administration brought the destructive Patriot Bill to the floor of the House. It continued in the release of the Bin Laden tapes at the same time the President was announcing the withdrawal from the ABM treaty. It remains present in the cordoning off of the Capitol. It is present in the camouflaged armed national guardsmen who greet members of Congress each day we enter the Capitol campus. It is present in the labyrinth of concrete barriers through which we must pass each time we go to vote. The trappings of a state of siege trap us in a state of fear, ill equipped to deal with the Patriot Games, the Mind Games, the War Games of an unelected President and his unelected Vice President."
Dennis Kucinich 2002

Again: And this must be understood before we can ask about the shortcomings of Congress in the current environment.

[defendandprotect]

118. Thank you . . . I had no idea he said this . . .

What a courageous and dear man he is!

[rucognizant]

120. And do you remember..........

When Dick Gephardt, stepped down from the Presisdential race in 2004, He said "More eyes are watching you than you realize!"

[Mabus]

166. Limbaugh was calling Daschle "El Diablo" during 2001

What did Ivins watch? What did he listen to? Did he read the RW's cottage industry of books blaming Democrats (Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.) and the liberal media for America's problems?

[Joanne98]

35. Have you ever heard of the Narcotics Task Force? They used to do that.

Follow people overtly. Do strange things like.. call our their names, play recordings of people calling their names. Play recordings of birds singing all night. Hang out in trees. Jump out from behind fences then run away. Drive by people making weird faces. Pounding on the walls of a house when only one person was there. They tried to make the person crazy, or look crazy to other people. To de-sensitize the group etc..

A met a girl once, who's boyfriend had died.. (he was under surveillance) Two weeks after his funeral. The NTF parked in front of her house, in a car with tinted windows, playing a recording of her dead boyfriend calling her name all night long..

Maybe someday someone will write a book about the NTF. Really evil people.

[Muttocracy]

63. that is truly frightening. nt

[defendandprotect]

68. Sick and evil people ---

... but what were they after --- keeping people from ending their fake Drug War?

[grannie4peace]

46. wow but not really

welcome to the outside. thanks for the information. i'm glad there is a GOD and that He is just and fair. i hope that things are exposed & evened out soon. i'm sick of seeing people tormented by what is supposed to be leaders(government). was it all a wet dream?

[Phred42]

47. They HAD to wrap this up before they loose control in January

We will probably see more of this, and more "suicides" over the next several months.

[Aviation Pro]

49. As someone who has been around enough operators to know....

...I call bullshit on this "suicide" too. The ops guys knew that Ivins was the personification of arrested development and took advantage of his low EQ and psych profile.

They, they being the administration of Preznit Fuckstick and Shitstain Shoots-Guy-In-Face, are pulling out all the stops to prevent their inevitable day in court. This, in my opinion, is just one more loose end to tie up.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. Do you think we might hear anything pertinent from Hatfield?

Might he have more light to shed on this?

It sure does sound a bit suspicious to me, I have to say. All tied up too neatly, with a bow on top, even.

[me b zola]

89. I'd be willing to bet

that part of Hatfield's settlement agreement is that he not speak about the case--and I'd consider that part of the fancy bow.

[Muttocracy]

99. omg, that would explain the timing

[me b zola]

115. How does one go about finding out about a legal settlement?

Are the details usually in the public domain? I would really like to know if my hunch is correct.

I know that several DUers are attorneys, and many more work in different areas of law, I would love to hear from someone who would know.

[salin]

53. About three to six months after the attacks, a female biologist/phd

did an investigative analysis to narrow down the small number of people who could have possibly been at the center of the attacks. She was concerned that the investigation had stalled, iifc, and published an article per her 'findings'. Does anyone remember this report (or even the woman's name?) I would be interested in re-reading it.

[PATRICK]

78. Barbara Hatch Rosenberg

Who started a lot of the right accusations about the FBI botching the crime investigation, intentionally covering up for USAMRID and then perching on single "suspects" it thought it could break down while perhaps letting real suspects off the hook. Union of Concerned Scientists used to have her articles at the time but you'll have to dig now. It is not certain she knew any of the facts anymore than we do now but she certainly nailed most of the suspicions. People attacking her are always trying to get the picture turned away to Muslim suspects and naturally, well away from USAMRID.

News coverage has always stunk on every story concerning just about everything. The innocent explanations and the possibility that this guy IS the terrorist does nothing to remove the dangerous, intentional fog of ignorance over all. No justice, no enlightenment, just propaganda from the WH and its mailbox to the US media.

[csziggy]

124. Is this her report? COMPILATION OF MAILED ANTHRAX EVIDENCE

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/Bioter/compilationofanthraxe...

Source: Federation of American Scientists, December 10, 2001.
A Compilation of Evidence and Comments on the Source of the Mailed Anthrax
Barbara Hatch Rosenberg, Federation of American Scientists (revised December 10, 2001)

#

Conclusions: A recent report by the Congressional GAO, as well as many recent statements by military and non-governmental experts in the BW field, holds that terrorists are unlikely to be able to mount a major biological attack without substantial assistance from a government sponsor. The recent anthrax attack was a minor one but nonetheless we now see that it was perpetrated with the unwitting assistance of a sophisticated government program. It is reassuring to know that it was not perpetrated by a lone terrorist without state support.

*

It is not reassuring, however, to discover that a secret US program may have been the source of that support, and that security is so dangerously lax in military or defense contractor laboratories. US government insistence on pursuing and maintaining the secrecy of elaborate biological threat assessment activities is undermining the prohibitions of the Biological Weapons Convention and encouraging biological weapons proliferation in other countries, which in turn may support bioterrorist attacks on the American public.

[Muttocracy]

138. good work - thanks for posting. nt

[PATRICK]

187. Yes and you can

see she was a prominent voice blowing the Iraq connection scam out of the water before it oozed over the entire investigation. Added to that was the Prague connection getting exposed(no accountablity for the easily seen connection to Perle and Cheney) and left as an influential Muslim "terrorist" insinuation still preached by surviving Bush fans.

She provided a connection between the stifled community under investigation and our dumbed down world.
Then it just disappeared for years until the penultimate Bush legacy had need for it.

[magellan]

55. So much for justice in this country

When someone can be targeted and terrorized by the government to the point of suicide without a single charge being levied against them, you know democracy is dead and tyranny has moved in and is making itself comfortable.

[Imagevision]

59. Just another situation for Cheney & Bush to close the book on...

[AnnieBW]

64. Just Cheney Tying up the Loose Ends

Before he has to leave the WH kicking and screaming...

[Virginian]

105. You mean McCain is not going to choose Cheney as a running mate? n/t

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

66. This is a believable explanation of what was done to this man.

[Frisbee]

69. I haven't been buying this one...

since it went public, and I am NOT usually a tinfoiler/conspiracy theorist. But this time, things just don't quite add up.

[tomp]

145. i see, all the other times things added up? nt

[Ilsa]

70. I didn't believe the story when it broke.

I bet the "psychiatrist" who said Ivins had homicidal tendencies doesn't even exist, in case he really was seeing a counselor.

Thank you for your insight on this and service.

[shireen]

71. evidence from the therapist? This case reminiscent of David Kelley & WMD.

isn't that information confidential? That's a major breach of trust, if the therapist is talking to the feds.

if i remember correctly, a British scientist who questioned the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq BS, David Kelley, also committed suicide.

[Supersedeas]

168. looks like M$NBC intends to trot out former prosecutor talking heads to emphasize how important

therapist testimony is.

Karen DeSoto is first from this list:

http://www.gogomag.com/talkingheads/misc_legal_f_page2....

How many more pretty faces will they call to dress up this pig of a story?

[Christa]

73. K & R

I am so damn sick to my stomach of the thugs in the WH

They are inhuman monsters who make Hitler looks good.

[newfie11]

74. Why does a suspicious death not rate an autopsy?????

Don't just look for the obvious!!! When I worked in Michigan all deaths except natural ones were autopsied. I can't believe MD doesn't do this.

[mr.anonymouslurker]

80. Motive and scenario

"Death to America, Death to Israel"

Motive: Make them believe Israel's enemies are America's enemies.

Problem: Anthrax op sloppy. Immediately traced back to Fort Detrick, Dr. Philip Zack, Dr. Marian Rippy. Incriminating video footage, documented outrageous behaviour, security violations. Attempts to frame microbiologist Ayaad Assaad failed. Too many people watching, questioning. If motive discovered huge problems. Internet a wildcard. Control of information difficult. Things could spin out of control.

Solution: High level intervention, tight control of investigation, personnel. "Lone gunman" needed. Eccentric, controversial, shady past. Dr. Steven Hatfill. Pin anthrax attacks on Hatfill. Harass, indict. Media allies critical. Get friendly MSM (NY Times, Newsweek, Time, AP, USA Today, TV networks, etc.) to character assassinate. Break him.

Unexpected complications: Hatfill too smart, strong willed. Too late to wack him. Everyone watching. Pay him off with hush money, continue to use media to discredit, insinuate, ostracize. But too many questions remain, uncertainty, focus becoming sharper, demands for answers.

Now what?

Alternate solution: Meeker patsy needed, breakable. Dr. Bruce E. Ivins? Catholic, eccentric, quiet, family problems. Long shot, but this time wack him first so he can't pull a Hatfill. Clarity necessary, documentation. Use MSM to character assassinate, then distract, ignore. Flood Internet with disinfo. Mukasey to crack whip, investigate, scapegoating of non-vetted personnel, no punches pulled.

Zack and Rippy disappeared, unmentioned by MSM and official sources, erased.

Case closed.

Next problem: Iran an existential threat. Osirak repeat unrealistic, beyond our capabilities. US Air Force and Navy needed, but Bush administration has betrayed us. Neocons discredited, despised. Gates, Mullen, Rice have his ear. Unanimous decision for no third front. Volunteer US Army overstretched. American public opinion against bombing, pre-emption. 9/11 hysteria waning, non-factor. Administration believes nuclear Iran containable, Greater Israel a liability, pressure intense to address Palestinian grievances. Information control in US increasingly difficult. Too many questions arising. UN planning repeat of 2001 UN World Conference Against Racism. Situation extremely dangerous. South African model for resolution to Israeli/Palestinian conflict becoming acceptable in public discourse. Catastrophic tipping point looms.

Solution: False flag op. Post-election, transition window. High US casualties to inspire public outrage against Iran, mobilization. (Note: This time no ambiguities. No Silversteins, Zacks, Jane Standleys, "dancing Israelis", etc.) Smarter, bigger, deadlier. Nukes? Martial law. Total info control. Enforced unity. WW II-style total war.

Never again. Never forget.

[Tinksrival]

108. Welcome to DU..............I think?

You made me

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

112. Welcome to DU and please...

...do some more posting -- reasoned clarity is something we can never get enough of.

Your first post deserves it's own thread. It's the best thing I've seen here on the anthrax case.

[Supersedeas]

133. 3 undeniable facts: Blame Islamists, real source Ft Detrick, Propoganda pretext for Iraq invasion

A lone gunman certainly fits the bill.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

156. Good analysis.

Let's hope we don't have to endure the conclusion, which may happen. I wish I could say I don't think they're capable of it, but I know they are.

[yardwork]

186. Welcome to DU. Who are Zack and Rippy?

[Celebration]

82. But we do need to celebrate this

The thread has not been sent to the dungeon.

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. It's not a conspiracy theory

if the conspiracy exists.

[eomer]

94. Balderdash! Of course it is a conspiracy theory. (eom)

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. There's conspiracy theories

and "conspiracy theories".

[eomer]

157. Your "conspiracy theories", by which I assume you mean wild and unfounded theories of loonies,

is a construct that would be very useful to a government that wishes to get away with murder and also by people who help them do so, either unwittingly or not. Perhaps you will consider this also a "conspiracy theory", but it appears that there is a pattern of our government (or elements thereof) promoting that very construct of "conspiracy theories" and using it for that very aim of getting away with murder.

When I see that "" version used, it is almost always an attempt to derail a substantive and logical treatment of a particular question by repeatedly ridiculing the very idea of it. Many times this ploy aimed at avoiding meaningful discussion is used in a discussion forum where meaningful discussion is the one and only goal.

Ironically, the only way to distinguish whether a given instance is a conspiracy theory or a "conspiracy theory" is to delve into the facts and logic and ferret it out. So the "conspiracy theory" construct has no value in the discussion; it only serves to distract from and delay the real work of getting down to the question.

The theory in the original post is not so obviously in the former of your two categories (if I correctly get your meaning). The evidence for it is all circumstantial. It sounds pretty plausible to me but it is not different, really, from many of the other theories that are typically attacked with the "conspiracy theory" meme.

I don't know which theories you mean to attack and slur -- maybe they are the same theories that I might also find loony, maybe not. But I urge you, if you are a person of good will, to not use this construct or at least to use it very sparingly and reluctantly because it is the enemy of meaningful discussion and you are in a discussion forum. A much more helpful and good neighborly approach in a discussion forum is to attack theories with facts and logic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

83. If Hatfield was allowed to live to sue, why didn't Ivins go to the ACLU with his story?

Sounds like his civil liberties were overtly being abused.

[JDPriestly]

177. Because he was right-wing and thought the ACLU was a bad

organization.

[The Backlash Cometh]

183. Has it been determined he's right-wing?

[Virginia Dare]

84. Thank you for your professional opinion Nightwatcher..

The guy clearly was scapegoated. He was a convenient stool pigeon.

Rest in peace Dr. Ivins, you're just another one of the hundreds of thousands who died to advance the neocon agenda.

[AZBlue]

85. K&R. I doubted the story the minute I heard it.

It's just too convenient and they are just pounding it too much in the media. There's no alternative view given - and that's not normal.
Thanks for sharing your insight.

[nikto]

88. Wow...It's a slam-dunk murder, IMO

This country is being run by CrimeInc Gangster Mob.

Total Thug-ocity!!

[samsingh]

91. kick

[Norrin Radd]

93. But...but...but...

our resident shills say that no people in the history of humanity have ever conspired to do something nefarious, like faking suicides?

K and R

[Stevepol]

95. While I don't deny that anything is possible, it's also possible and maybe more likely

that he is pretty much what is being represented here. As an A #1 weirdo, paradoid schizo, he would be the right personality type to fit the freeper mentality and go bonkers about what the liberals did about some issue or many issues that just didn't suit him. The MSM is wrong to ignore the political ramifications of the case and they're likely doing it because they don't want to offend those jumpy conservatives who are just as likely to start filibustering as look at you (would that the Dems would get a little more jumpy).

Anyway, it could fit that scenario. As for his abilities to actually make or use the powdered anthrax, I don't have any idea, but he very possibly did have access or could have gotten access to it.

However, I wouldn't put it past this administration. They've proven themselves capable of doing anything, particularly Cheney.

[JDPriestly]

100. The L.A. Times (hard copy edition) ran a story

suggesting Ivins might have sent the letters thinking they would gain public support for his efforts to produce an anthrax vaccine.

Playing devil's advocate,

(a) it is possible that Ivins sent the letters thinking that no one would really be hurt because the anthrax would stay in the envelope. The problem with this theory is that, as an anthrax expert, he surely would have understood the risk he was taking in sending such envelopes. And if he did not recognize it before sending the first envelope, he would have known it before sending the subsequent ones. So, he surely would not have continued to send them.

(b) assuming the hypothesis that Ivins sent the letters and that, for some reason, he thought he was doing the right thing, based on my experience, scientists and technicians sometimes become so fascinated by the details of their work that they fail to see the big picture. It is possible that Ivins failed to think clearly about this scheme (assuming it was his scheme) because he was not looking at the big picture, not thinking about the consequences for himself and others.

From the little I have read about Ivins, I think he would have been far more vulnerable to psychological harassment than some people. His devotion to the Catholic religion suggests to me that he liked to have ritual and certainty in his life. Therefore, if he believed something, he might not question it. This also makes me think (as an amateur psychologist) that he might tend to have "faith" in ideas suggested to him by authority figures. He may have been an original thinker in his scientific research, and he may even have been eccentric, but he was not a nonconformist. He was clearly attuned to trying to please others. Clearly, this was a man whose eccentricity was in spite of himself. If he was odd, it was because he was odd and not because he sought to stand out as different. He might still have done this act thinking according to some confused logic that he would get broad public approval for it.

Ivins would have been more vulnerable to this kind of harassment than Hatfill. First Ivins had children. Second he clearly valued having status in his community. He would have been easily shamed, deeply shamed. He would have been afraid of the rejection of people in his community, especially in the scientific community.

Ivins, remember, was quite conservative in many respects. In the hard copy of the Friday L.A. Times, one of his brothers, Thomas Ivins, is quoted as saying that, when the FBI questioned him, he (Thomas) "sung like a canary," and that Ivins "had in his mend that he was omnipotent." If that is true, Ivins probably had rivals in the workplace and elsewhere. The rivals might correctly assess his capacity for crime, but might not be totally objective and reliable either.


Once again, this is a situation in which the government needs to be absolutely open and honest about just what the facts are and let the people draw their own conclusions. The government does itself a disservice when it hides and covers up. People like us who are smart and who think for ourselves lose trust in the government when it is obvious that it is hiding facts from us.

The government is creating a class of people who take everything they say as probably untrue or incomplete. I think I can be trusted with the facts, whatever they are. When I am not given the facts, I tend to suspect the worst. So, in this situation, the government would win by just letting all the facts about its investigation, every detail, be known. Hey, they read our e-mails and posts. I still write e-mails and posts.

We here on DU like most Americans are not hiding anything. Why should our government hide stuff from us?

[mainer]

101. tylenol with codeine suicide -- from an MD's pov

This is what set my alarm bells ringing. First, from what I understand, he was discovered comatose at home and died two days later in a hospital.

A few things.

There are two drug components to consider. First, the acetaminophen component (Tylenol.) This kills patients via toxicity to the liver. If discovered early, it IS survivable and treatable. Immediately after ingestion, the patient does not become comatose. The symptoms of hepatic toxicity do not set in for several days, so this is clearly not what killed him, as he was discovered already comatose.

The codeine component could kill a patient in the same way that any other morphine derivative can, with respiratory depression. There are four different levels of codeine combined with tylenol, depending on the particular pill prescribed, ranging from 8 mg. per tablet to 60 mg. per tablet. (Tylenol 1,2,3, or 4.) The LD 50 (dose that kills 50% of people) for codeine is 800 mg. So yes, it's possible to die of a codeine overdose if you take enough of the strongest dose (60 mg/ tab.) At the lowest dose (8 g) you'd have to take 100 tabs. And very few physicians I know of would prescribe that many tablets at a time. More likely, it would be in numbers of 30 tabs or so.

THE REAL PROBELM, HOWEVER, is that he lived for two days after being discovered!!!

Anyone with an overdose of a morphine derivative is easily treated with a quick IV dose of Narcan, which quickly counteracts morphine's effects. If he was still alive and breathing when discovered, he SHOULD HAVE SURVIVED with a simple dose of Narcan.

[Bozita]

107. Informative post. Thank you.

[Muttocracy]

121. how long do you have for stomach pumping?

not to be gross, but I know someone who survived a suicide attempt by having their stomach pumped in time.

[MetaTrope]

131. Here's his claimed "therapist" talking about her happy pills

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display....

Wonder if there might be some relevance...

[Supersedeas]

141. subozone users are asked to attend a group session once a week

[FraDon]

172. A frightening, related link from that same FrederickNewsPost page.

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display....

FBI seizes library computers
Originally published August 03, 2008. By Comfort Dorn and Adam Behsudi, News-Post Staff

The FBI removed computer records from the C. Burr Artz Library this week, a library official confirmed Saturday. ... This was the third time in his 10 years with FCPL that the FBI has come to the library seeking records, Batson said. It was the first time they came without a court order. ... The library's procedure for such requests usually requires a court order, however after the agent described the case and the situation, he was persuaded to give them access, Batson said. Batson said the agents made no mention of Bruce Ivins, anthrax or Fort Detrick. "Obviously it coincided with the events everyone is talking about," he said.

Yeah, right: obviously.

[factcheckr]

132. The lethal dose of codeine

Technically, the LD50 of a drug is not the "dose that kills 50% of people". It could more accurately be described as the number of milligrams per kilogram of body weight that kills half of all rats. It would be very hard to design an ethical scientific study to determine how much codeine it takes to kill half of all people. The lethal dose for humans is extrapolated by taking the experimental animal data and allowing for the average weight of a human. Additional limited, but useful, data on a drug's toxicity to humans, and thus the validity of these extrapolations, is often gained by studying actual cases of overdoses in humans, both accidental and deliberate. Not surprisingly, in the case of the opiates, this opportunity comes along all too often.

Perhaps the "50% of people" phrase was used for the sake of brevity. In any case, it's obvious from this post that Ivins' cause of death warrants further investigation.

Another crucial lesson to be learned from all this is that newspaper stories citing "court documents" as proof of a person's mental state or possible guilt should immediately prompt the question: what documents? Far from having the gravity that the term "court document" suggests, this document seems to be a request for a restraining order written by an alleged therapist who can spell the word "subpoena" but not the word "therapist", and makes an unsubstantiated claim about a psychiatric diagnosis that is pure heresay.

[Supersedeas]

136. and yet the Corporate Scriveners couldn't take the time to ask a physician about his death?

[clear eye]

155. Maybe these sorts of questions are why the story changed

from saying he died of a Tylenol overdose to a Tylenol +codeine OD to unidentified "prescription painkillers" OD. Could be reporters were calling the FBI for clarification to explain why he wasn't saved in the hospital if he OD'ed on the first two drugs reported. Wonder if they fed him that suboxone stuff and planned to say he stole it but Duley didn't get it and wouldn't go along when they hinted that she might have found some missing so they just had to nix the autopsy and couldn't come up with anything plausible.

[SmokingJacket]

109. The lack of autopsy, if true, is unbelievable.

That's the most suspicious thing of all, to me. I could almost dismiss the enormous convenience of the whole thing (perfect timing, perfect wrap-up) but not the lack of autopsy.

[autorank]

110. " history of making homicidal threats" - Background check?

NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?e...

"After Dr. Ivins made the threats on July 9 about killing his co-workers, he was detained while at work and taken to a hospital before being transferred to a nearby psychiatric hospital. He was later released, but forbidden from going to Fort Detrick.

"Ms. Duley said that Dr. Ivins had a history of making homicidal threats that dated to his college days. But several of Dr. Ivins’s co-workers said that while he clearly was devastated after he was singled out for possible prosecution, that does not mean he was involved in the attack."

OK, so we've got a guy who is in an ultra secure lab handling highly toxic substances:

"Ms. Duley said that Dr. Ivins had a history of making homicidal threats that dated to his college days."

But that never came up in a background check, one can assume, since hopefully, they would have hauled
him out of there. It could have been missed by poor investigation too.

[Muttocracy]

122. I have yet to hear anyone other than that verify it

Other counselors? colleagues? friends? family?

If it's self-reporting, you can't take a suicidal (if he was) person describing what they were like 30 years ago at face value!

[autorank]

144. Good point. Check this out - the tape of the Social Workers restraing order hearing

Right now, there's just the word of the social worker. The July 24th date where she reported these threats is interesting. She had to see herself in imminent danger to break confidentiality and do that.
I'd like to know more about that.

There was reference to group therapy. ... just found this.

The NYT got a 10 minute recording from the hearing that

(Describing early morning voice messages from Ivins)

Duley: The first voice message was sort of a ranting, blaming me for having this done to him. It was sort of just rambling.

Same with three minutes later, saying that obviously we no longer have a therapeutic relationship, and how could I do this to him.


NYT Tape of restraining order hearing:

"(Describing a July 12 call)

Duley: That one was rather scary. He very calmly thanked me for ruining his life and opening, allowing the FBI now to be able to prosecute him for the murders and that it was all my fault, and it's going to be my fault that they could now get him.

___

Duley: As far back as the year 2000, the respondent has actually attempted to murder several other people, either through poisoning — he is a revenge killer when he feels that he's been slighted or has had, especially towards women, he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killing. He has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This is odd.

Why was he still on the job if "top psychiatrists" said he was a homicidal killer..."?

Why wasn't he restrained in a psychiatric facility based on this testimony?

[JDPriestly]

178. Lots of very healthy people were suicidal at some point in their life.

Homicidal??? People exaggerate when they talk about the feelings they had in the past. The therapist's statements have to be taken with a grain of salt. If the therapist let Ivins know that she was testifying in his case, he may have felt that he was betrayed, that he had lost his last friend. That could have put him over the edge. It also could have caused him to threaten her in desperation.

[Supersedeas]

143. much of the DoJ/Media PR case revolves around Ms. Duley's 'analysis' of Ivin

[caseymoz]

123. Now that was good analysis.

Before I read this I couldn't tell what to make of it.

I'm very glad you wrote this. Just another reason why we have to win the presidential election, and more importantly now, impeach Bush.

Meanwhile, let's make commitment to not allowing this one to fall (or be thrown) into the memory hole.

[DeepBlueC]

126. fascinating

k&r

[peacetalksforall]

128. I thought the second that drugs are involved an autopsy is ORDERED.

Required?

This is all about poison in the body.

No autopsy.

No suicide.

They want us to be stupid.

[Flatulo]

139. No. My dad overdosed and no autopsy was performed per Mom's wishes. nt

[Spiffarino]

146. That's surprising

Considering that both my father and stepfather died by suicide - in different states - and autopsies were performed on both to rule out foul play. This was not optional, it was required in both states. If a person dies by any but natural causes under a doctor's care, I thought an autopsy was supposed to be automatic.

One might expect Ivins' family to demand an autopsy...unless somebody warned them against one.

[peacetalksforall]

129. "They' hate us for our freedom.

Death merchants.

[peacetalksforall]

130. When you look at all the lies and set-ups - it makes a person

realize how simple minded they are.

[Major Hogwash]

140. Case closed.

That's what they want you to think.
Not only do I agree with the OP, but it is rather obvious.

The Bush administration told us for 5 years it was Hatfield.
For 5 fuckin' years!!

Then 2 months ago, the Bush administrations quietly says "oops, wrong guy" and pays Hatfield $5.8 million dollars.

The Bush administration ruined Hatfield's career and, more or less, his life.
Can you imagine what it was like for Hatfield for these last 5 years, knowing that he was innocent - that he was not the guy - but that the government was telling everyone he was?

And now, a scientist commits suicide, so the government points at him and says "that's the guy we were looking for all along".

It's not believable, it's not plausible, and it's not even possible.

The Bush administration may think this case is closed, but it isn't.

[Indenturedebtor]

142. Just another day in paradise. One suicide after another after another...

It all stinks to high heaven. K+R

[Spiffarino]

148. There will be many unusual happenings...

...between now and the Republican theft of the 2008 Election. Too many loose ends to tie up.

[phoenixriz]

152. Article of Interest

An interesting article that talks about the Social Worker who has gone into hiding. I think the FBI filled her with all kinds of lies the last month of his life and scared her to death. They then gave her the instructions to file the report as a way of capturing him. Their real intentions of course to dispose of him.

I feel sorry for his family. The son's message says it all.


<www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?sto... >


Despite the widespread publicity following Ivins' death, Keeney and Basford Funeral Home said Saturday that the family had made no changes to funeral arrangements announced Friday in his obituary. A memorial service is scheduled for 10 a.m. Saturday at St. John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church in Frederick, followed by a reception at the church parish hall.

Ivins' brother, Tom Ivins, said he had not spoken to Bruce Ivins since 1985, but acknowledged the possibility his brother may have been the anthrax mailer.

"It makes sense, what the social worker said," Tom Ivins said. "He considered himself like a god."

Ivins' wife Diane refused to comment today from the couple's home on Military Road in Frederick.

Their two children posted messages to their father on their Facebook pages Wednesday.

Daughter Amanda wrote, "forever my hero, forever in my heart, forever my daddy É rest in peace I will always love you!!"

Son Andy wrote, "I will miss you Dad. I love you and I can't wait to see you in Heaven. Rest in peace. It's finally over."

[hunter]

150. They've got suicidal depression in a pill, I'm sure. Not a lot of harassment needed.

Here in the light there are effective anti-depressant medicines, but on the dark side there are substances that make you want to kill yourself.

The same folks who think bio-weapons like anthrax are appropriate kit for spooks certainly deal in a lot of other frightening stuff.

[bjobotts]

151. ABC news releases from undisclosed sources now look like perps. That should keep story alive

[Supersedeas]

163. CNN is running hard with the "he was about to go postal" audio exerpt from Duley

[orleans]

154. 133rd recommendation here. oh, and a little kick as well. n/t

[raging_moderate]

158. no autopsy?

there isn't a state in this country that doesn't require a medical examiner case for a suicide or accidental death.

I'm curious, who out there knows how to look up this person's political contributions? I know you can online somehow. Wouldn't be interesting if it turns out his political persuasion was inline with Leahy/Daeschle etc??? If so, that would ramp up the conspiracy theorists

[RedLetterRev]

159. FWIW From another former spook

Half the point of surveillance is target exploitation. The point is not to let the target know they're being watched, so they'll unwittingly give you more information just by doing what they do. Even a dime-novel gumshoe knows that much. Betcherass intelligence and enforcement professionals know and are capable of doing a lot more. Think about it. The 'rithmatick doesn't even require a pencil.

This "overt surveillance" in this case was nothing but a mobster-style intimidation tactic. It wasn't designed to gather intelligence. It was strictly designed to keep intelligence from seeing the light of day. End of story.

[BeHereNow]

182. That is EXACTLY what I think-

Especially when you factor in the Emergent Bio-Solutions bid,
not to mention their long and sordid past with the BFEE, the Saudis
and the Bin Ladens.

Ivins knew something they didn't want public.

BHN

[pipi_k]

160. What I thought was outrageous...

that since their Main Suspect went and "committed suicide", they've pretty much washed their hands of the whole deal.

I find this disturbing.

Stephen Hatfill was a Main Suspect for a while...he successfully sued for damages. What if he had "killed himself" before he could do that? Would the case have been closed then?

Richard Jewell, the suspected Olympic Park bomber. He wasn't the guy they were looking for. What if he had "committed suicide" before he could be proven innocent? Another closed case?


So now we have this guy Ivins, who was merely a suspect, hadn't even gone to trial, much less been convicted of anything...he conveniently "commits suicide"....and the case is closed????

This whole thing STINKS.

I think there are some very sinister things beneath this anthrax deal that we may never find out...

[Y B Gerbil]

169. Well Mr. Spook,

perhaps they should have enlisted Dr. McCoy to lean on "Hatfield". Seriously though, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Bubba.

[Joe Chi Minh]

170. Obviously, it is a viciously organised nightmare for the victims of overt

surveillance, or for many of them, but, although along with a number of other factors, it didn't prove too good for my health, even when it was entirely malicious there were a number of factors that rendered it almost counter-productive. The long and the short of it is, I've become a surveillance "junkie" and would miss my shadows.

Anyway, I hope I haven't trivialised what is a dire subject.

[Joe Chi Minh]

179. And I'd better not get cocky or they'll take me down a peg or three.

[sourmilk]

171. Agree wholeheartedly.

I have heard of this happening in the past with a couple whistleblowers - just anecdotal, but what more do yuo usually get?

[SharonRB]

184. Thom Hartmann just talked about this post

and read part of it on-air.

[defendandprotect]

188. One of Ivins' friends also talked about the fact he had no more money for lawyers . . ..

and that would have been his best defense ---

There should be a pool of funds for whistleblowers and "suspects" --

This is insane --- and insane people are giving us these policies!!