Rap and homophobia.

[ccharles000]

With all the Ludacris drama going on I decided to look at his lyrics at was surprised at how many times he uses fag and faggot.I always knew that homophobia existed in rap but never knew the extent. I don't know how any liberal can listen to this trash.

[mcctatas]

1. I guess Obama isn't a liberal then...

:eyes:

[readmoreoften]

2. huh?

[mitchtv]

4. I heard on the MSM today

that he has Ludacris on his playlist

[fl410]

8. More likely, he has "ludicrous" in his vocabulary.

;-)

[Hugabear]

3. Please explain

I was under the impression that Obama has spoken out against the sort of rap music that denigrates women and homosexuals, and promotes violence and a "thug" mentality.

[mcctatas]

48. It was in reference to the fact that the RS article on Obama

mentioned he has ludicrous in his i pod, since the OP said he doesn't see how liberals can listen to this, I thought such a sweeping pronouncement on liberal behavior needed a little... :eyes:

[fl410]

5. Of course not. Were you under some kind of impression he was?

??????

[ecstatic]

22. Obama may only hear the edited/watered down versions

I don't recall hearing the homophobic stuff in Ludacris' songs but I only hear the radio version.

[Hugabear]

28. Exactly

It's entirely possible for someone to like a particular song that's popular without really knowing much about the artist or their other works.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

179. With regard to Jay-Z, I think he listens to the explicit version

Certainly it would be the explicit version because he mentions that his daughters aren't quite ready to "handle" the music yet.

[LWolf]

83. He's not,

but I have no idea what that has to do with Ludacris.

[Orsino]

116. Bingo! n/t

[Beregond2]

6. The appeal of rap

escapes me. As verse, it isn't worthy of a Hallmark card. The content is vile. If I want to hear illiterate creeps scream abuse, I'll go to a Republican rally.

[fl410]

7. Rap is to music as dog shit is to fine cuisine.

:shrug:

[iamthebandfanman]

9. dont make generalisations please

not all rap is about bigotry, sexism, guns, and drugs...
thank you very much.

some rap actually have good poetic lyrical content...and yes, that sound you hear in the back ground IS technically music...whether you like the sound or not.

sheesh.

[AlCzervik]

10. rap is easy to hate here.

sad but true.

[iamthebandfanman]

11. some people are quick to hate or dismiss something

just because they dont prefer it.

which is kinda sad since i thought we were all open minded and progressive around here.

that sorta mentality has been used by alot of bad people. lol.

you learn something new everyday tho.

[AlCzervik]

12. i'm sure if i posted my music library people would be horrified.

this old broad listens to rap and everything else.

[iamthebandfanman]

15. im on that boat with you

i appreciate all music to atleast some degree.

[Beregond2]

25. Being "open minded" doesn't mean

giving up the right to judge. There are still standards of quality that transcend individual preferences.

Rap, by definition, is not music. Music is tones structured in reference to melody, harmony, rythmn, etc. Rap is rhythmically structured language, which makes it poetry. As such, I have nothing against it. The problem is, it's perveyors have no grasp of what constitutes good poetry. They aim at rhyme, and miss. They establish a structure only to violate it. They have no understanding of basic English. And most of the content is trite, ugly, angry and offensive.

The defenders of rap say: "It's street! It's the language of these people! It's their experience! They have every right to express themselves in this way!" Granted. But none of that makes it good. It is merely evidence of how far this society has failed them, that they are so illiterate, and their spirits are so angry and despairing. And also, to what an extent they have failed to rise to the challenge of their circumstances.

There was a time when the black underclass responded to their oppresion with ragtime, jazz, blues, r & b. In fact, there would be no uniquely American music without their all-important contribution. What has rap added to our culture but noisy nihilism?

[fl410]

29. It is all of a piece with the general disintegration of the language.

Bring everything down to the lowest common denominator...is regarded as progress by those who don't know any better. Condemn excellence and inherit the wind...it's not new, it's just redirected.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. LOL.

"There was a time when the black underclass responded to their oppresion with ragtime, jazz, blues, r & b"

Yeah, and there were a bunch of illiterate bigots who said that wasn't really music either, just noise.

[Dorian Gray]

119. 'Tis very true...

Very true.

[Ron Green]

159. The jury's gonna be out for a while on that one.

Jazz, blues and R&B (I'm talking about real R&B, not the "Grammy" category) have stood the test of time as the core of American popular music, subject to arrangement and reinterpretation. Jazz stands alone as the one true American art.

I know there is some artistic value in some of the hip-hop catalog, but we won't know for some long years what lasting contribution has been made.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

209. LOL "the jury's still out."

Yeah, that's what Bush says about evolution.

[Ron Green]

222. .

:crazy:

[Number23]

183. Dayum!

Yeah, and there were a bunch of illiterate bigots who said that wasn't really music either, just noise.

LOL!! :rofl:

Anyone, in 2008 who still clings to the belief that a music form that has been around for 30 years and has spread across the entire damn PLANET (do you know they have hip hop concerts in the Serengeti?) is somehow not "real" music is willfully and deliberately clueless. Not liking it is fine, but to deny its power and poetry says more about you than it does about hip hop.

[fishwax]

193. exactly

"Yeah, and there were a bunch of illiterate bigots who said that wasn't really music either, just noise."

So ironic :rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

96. GET OFFA MAH LAWNN!!!!

Durn kids...

[tired]

102. "Rap, by definition, is not music."

That is a pretty outlandish statement. Lyrics are not music but the beats that are underneath are. You cannot call it "Rap" without the beats, otherwise its just spoken word. What you may not understand is that many producers actually play the instruments you hear but they only sample the parts they need.

"What has rap added to our culture but noisy nihilism?"

What did most of the music of the 80's add?


It is your personal choice to not enjoy rap but don't disparage the genre because of what you hear on the radio. That is a manufactured sound.


If you want to hear what Hip Hop really is you may want to check out Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common, Sole, Atmosphere, Del the Funky Homosapien, Tribe, ect. There is far better Hip Hop than Ludacris, you just need to expand your horizons.

[tburnsten]

110. Good advice

"Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common, Sole, Atmosphere, Del the Funky Homosapien, Tribe, ect. "

And I'd like to add Brother Ali to that list. There are lots of rappers who put people like ludicrous to shame, and also completely overpower all that bogus "club" rap as well. I can't stand listening to music that makes it seem as if the singer's entire life is lived within and defined by clubs.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

107. Ever heard of Public Enemy?

They added a lot to our culture.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

123. Listen to someone like GZA.........

....then come back and talk to me. Here's a hint: Like most music, the best rap is not the stuff played on the radio or what tops the charts.

[Terran]

124. Wow

Did someone say you were "open minded"? Your mind is very much closed, and ignorant, when it comes to this subject, that much is obvious.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

180. You obviously haven't heard much "alternative" hip hop

There's a lot of intelligence in some of the rappers out there. But I do agree that the majority of the "big money" acts suck, especially in the last few years. And not all underground acts are great - many just try to imitate the bling bling of the big names.

[AngryOldDem]

291. Good post, good observations.

After listening to about five minutes of rap, I feel like putting my fist through the wall. Angry music. If that is indeed the point of it, "noisy nihilism" is a compliment.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

26. It's generational for the most part.

I doubt many people born before (roughly) 1960 would enjoy it.

Not that everyone born after then would love rap, but they have higher levels of acceptance -- of course, the critics won't focus on the good hip-hop, just the mainstream radio stuff.

[LWolf]

84. I don't listen to the radio,

so I've missed a whole range, I guess.

I've read rap lyrics, shared with me by a student. When I called her mother in to talk about them, she said, "_______ knows she is not supposed to bring her songbook to school." (She had a binder full of her favorite rap lyrics.)

The lyrics were ok with her mother, even the ones about getting mad and raping your mother. The profane hate, ugliness, misogyny, and violence that pervaded those rap "songs" sickened me.

Then I've endured a hip hop group, performing at a small local gig (my son was following them.) Xtian hip hop, with all kinds of inane rhymes matched to awkward dance gyrations about the joy of allowing someone to crucify themselves for you.

Two wide extremes; I'm sure there is something in between that isn't so bad, lol.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

103. There are numerous positive, intelligent hip-hop artists.

Unfortunately, they don't get played on the radio much, if at all.

Assuming the radio stuff is real hip-hop is like saying Kenny G is John Coltrane.

[LWolf]

105. You'd probably have to have an interest in the genre to find them.

My musician son reminds me that every genre, and expression, is legitimate, whether or not I "like" it. We've often had this conversation.

As far as the original topic of this thread goes, I see the debate as a balance between free speech and hate speech, both of which can be expressed in many genres, including music.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

201. You couldn't have said it better, S.A. (NT)

[fl410]

14. Sorry, yes I was being far too general. I apologize for not specifying

Cocker Spaniel dog shit.

:-)

[iamthebandfanman]

17. cute. n/t

[PVnRT]

115. Fail.

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. Most rap is absolutely about bigotry of one form or another

Anyone bearing the rare counterexample had better be prepared for counter-counterexamples FROM THE SAME RAPPER.

[Goblinmonger]

35. Public Enemy. n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

74. You mean the Public Enemy that produced "Sophisticated Bitch?"

Go look up the lyrics.

[Goblinmonger]

92. THAT'S your best example.

If so, epic fail. That is a song about ONE woman who is a gold digger. It never says anything about all women. It calls her a ho once and it is specifically talking about a specific woman/type of woman. PE clearly says to stay away from THAT TYPE OF WOMAN which would mean that they feel there are many other women out there that aren't a problem. Are you going to deny that there are women out there that only want to date men for their money and status? Of course there are, and PE wrote a song about them.

Again, fail. At least you could have gone for the Professor Griff period and we could have discussed how they kicked his ass out when he went all anti-Jew. Though that point is moot because he never wrote any of their songs.

[donco6]

170. It's not about ONE woman.

You yourself said it's about a TYPE of woman. And if you really look at the lyrics, it's more of a long-winded whine about a woman who snubs him in favor of someone who's got something going. Yeah, he claims she's after the attache and the tie every day. But really he's just pissed that she feels he's beneath her, and she doesn't have a right to feel that way (because . . . ? He said so?). So now she's a bitch and a ho. Poor jealous thang.

And at the end, he can't figure out why she hasn't been beaten to death. Wistful-like.

Ugh.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

225. Lyrics

That woman in the corner cold playin' the role
Just leave her ass in the corner till her feet get cold
Knowin' for a fact that girl is whacked
If you hold your hand out she'll turn her back
Better walk don't talk she's all pretend
Can't be her friend unless you spend
Wall to wall after all
Get ready to throw only money at the bitch

Cause she thinks she's so
phisticated

Peekin', seekin' inside a book
Her demands for a man with a chemical look
Wishes, desires, gettin worse with age
She doesn't want a man, all she wants is a page
Ain't got a man so she goes to a club
She think it's classy but it's really a pub
But that's the kind of place she likes to go
The bitch got a problem

Cause she thinks she's so-
phisticated

Jackets, shoes, everyday ties
The girl only wants one of those guys
Suckers who front like it ain't no thing
Pretend to be friends, don't want that thang
Talk like this, don't talk slang
Do anything to get that thang
Tries to be chic and play it off
Peekin' through the window, I saw her take her clothes off
Nasty girl, stone cold freak
Stayin' in bed a whole goddamn week
Comin' and leavin' guys servin' up storms
From execs with checks, boys from the dorms
Never kept a name, never seen a face
She could pass 'em in the street like it never took place
I know she's a ho I'm on the go
Expose the funky bitch

Cause she thinks she's so-
phisticated

Now she wants a sucker but with an attache
And if you ain't got it, she'll turn you away
You can smile with stile but you lost your trial
Cause you got a gold tooth, she thinks you're wild
She don't want a brother that's true and black
If you're light, you're alright, better stay back
Cause the sucker with the bag is out the catch
With something in his bag keepin' her attached
The man's got a plan, it's IBM
The devil at her level, yes it's him
His Audi she rides, his gold and clothes
The ill base method, turning up her nose
Lack a lack a lack, now beaming her up
She still got the nerve to turn her funky nose up
Her status looks at us from down below
Now the bitch is in trouble

Cause she was so-
phisticated

Little is known about her past
So listen to me cause I know her ass
Used to steal money out her boyfriends clothes
And never got caught, so the story goes
She kept doin' that to all her men
Found the wrong man when she did it again
And still to this day people wonder why
He didn't beat the bitch down till she almost died

So-
phisticated

Sounds like a pretty specific woman to me.

:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

230. Oh, so as long as she's a "gold digger," then it's OK. GOTCHA. nt

[bicentennial_baby]

47. GZA

[superduperfarleft]

97. Ooh, I'll play.

Black Market Militia, Ishues, KRS-One, Paris, Cannibal Ox, Scienz of Life, Mos Def, Narcisist, Euphrates, Solomon Wise, The Nonce, Qwel, The Roots, Skillz, Sage Francis, Unlearn, Common Market, 2mex, Cadence Weapon and on and on and on....

And that's just what's on my ipod. So tell me again how ALL hiphop (oh, I'm sorry, "most") is bigoted? What's that, you've never heard of most of those artists? Well then maybe you shouldn't broadbrush an artform that you know nothing about except what Bill O'Reilly told you.

[flvegan]

220. *ahem* The Beastie Boys

[Dreamer Tatum]

229. You mean the Beastie Boys who wanted to title their first record "Don't Be a Faggot?"

*ahem*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licensed_to_Ill

[flvegan]

236. Yep.

Considering they were 17 years old and apologized for it vehemently and have been pretty outspoken on GLBT rights quite a bit in the past.

So again, yep. Shit, I used the word "queer" in a derogatory way when I was a stupid teenager.

[Dreamer Tatum]

237. Odd how that doesn't erase the words from anyone's CDs

Odd also how you can still buy copies of their CDs that haven't been edited out to reflect their apology.

And I won't even mention how women are portrayed in their music.

[flvegan]

241. Three idiots that made a masterpiece. - Rolling Stone

Made by teenagers as a running joke, tough to expect more.

But hey, cling to your little bias based on one CD made when they were kids. Looking at your other posts here, it is fairly pathetic.

[Dreamer Tatum]

244. My bias is toward real music...jazz.

You should try it sometime. Pop in anything from the golden age of Blue Note, and you'll hear some of the
most incredible artistry and the greatest chops...EVER.

Why do I hate rap? Because it's STUPID and PUERILE. It uses recordings of actual music in the background while
people gifted in the dubious art of rhyming bellow in the foreground. I completely, categorically, utterly and without
pause reject the notion that rap is a legitimate musical form.

Sonny Rollins stopped playing jazz, simply QUIT PLAYING because he didn't think he could anymore. He did this despite
mastering one of the most complex instruments possible. He regained his confidence by rehearsing for ten hours a day.
John Coltrane agonized over his solo technique at the precise moment that his playing was regarded by many as the
most harmonically dense and challenging. Donald Byrd was and is one of the premier music theorists alive, yet he was
a very popular jazz artist in his prime. Those are artists. Rappers are not. The proof is in the number of funky breakbeats
you hear sampled in rap songs. Not the other way around. I hear remarkably few Jay Z samples in my Russell Malone CDs.

[flvegan]

249. Okay

you don't like it, cool. I hate most of today's mainstream garbage too. Rappers are artists, just in a different format. The sampling, for which you have such dislike, ain't as easy to put together in many cases as you think. Well, not Jay-Z, because he sucks.

On a lighter note, did you know the Beasties played jazz on some of their later works? Probably not to your liking/style, but still kind of ironic, considering where we landed.

[Goblinmonger]

278. The same jazz that brought us "Black Coffee" by Ella?

That's a positive picture for women. and "Girls Were Made to Take Care of Boys" by Billie (OK, maybe more blues but certainly in the wheelhouse).

[Dreamer Tatum]

279. What the hell is your point?

Are you somehow drawing a moral equivalence between Ella Fitzgerald and Ludacris?

If so, can you handle a spit take?

[Goblinmonger]

288. Well

A. I wasn't talking about Ludacris, I was talking about Public Enemy
B. The two songs I mention (which are among others) are clearly examples of sexism in jazz
C. If we are going to condemn a musical genre because of values we don't like existing in that genre, then we must condemn jazz just like we condemn rap.

I'm not arguing a moral equivalency of dick. A "good" rap group was asked for. I mentioned PE. You said they had one bad song. Then you said jazz was the shit. I showed you two bad songs in jazz. My point is the same as yours. I think it is a shitty point, but you seemed to think it has merit.

[Runcible Spoon]

281. There's a lot of suckage in ANY genre. Including classical and jazz.

to debase the entire genre is just ridiculously close minded. You can say "hey, it doesn't float my boat" without degrading the rights of other people to get down to music they enjoy.

I had epic debates with my father about electronica. I played Aphex Twin for him and argued the mechanical complexity was just as well-crafted and genius as Beethoven. After a decade, he ceded my point. He still doesn't enjoy listening to the music, but he recognizes the craft behind the works.

It would benefit you to look less like an ignorant bigot and reconsider slander of music forms you personally do not like and apparently know little about.

The political issues about hate speech in music are separate from chastising the legitimacy of the art form as a whole.

[Dreamer Tatum]

283. Nope, sorry, rap still isn't music, and I won't kowtow

Don't pigeonhole me - I did my time with Fripp and Eno, Zappa, Gang of Four, Husker Du, and so forth, and I still consider it all to have tremendous merit.

As for suckage in my favorite genre, I couldn't agree more: Nat Adderley, Lou Donaldson, George Benson after 1972 or so, purveyors of "free" jazz, "smooth" jazz, and certain others will NEVER grace my CD player.

I'm not an ignorant bigot. I just think rap is nothing more than rhythmic talking over someone else's music.

ps - opinions you don't like do not qualify as "slander," G.

[Runcible Spoon]

284. they're not opinions. Rap is almost universally accepted as a form of musical expression.

As such, your statements are easily in the realm of ignorance and bias. You don't have to like it to respect it for what it is. I'm not the one pigeonholing you; you've done quite a good job of it yourself.

Enjoy sounding like a narrow-minded elitist, if you like.

[Dreamer Tatum]

286. I'm narrowminded because the only genre I hate is rap?

That's just silly, yo.

I don't feel the need to respect things that I hate.

As for pigeonholing: yes, you're right. I've pigeonholed myself into every form of music that doesn't have lyrics like, "I'm Eazy E I have bit**** galore, you may have many bit**** but I got much more."

That would make it a large pigeonhole, wouldn't it?

I'm sorry I don't like rap. I would not like it in a car, I would not like it in a bar. I would not like it in a tree, I would not like it so let me be.

[Runcible Spoon]

294. I'm not fucking asking you to like it, I'm asking you to recognize it as a viable genre of music.

Were your reading comprehension better, you would have recognized this simple fact from the very first of my posts to you.

And yes, denying an entire genre of music as "non-music" is narrow-minded.

I think most modern non-vocal jazz sounds like soulless noise, but I recognize it as MUSIC. Even that atonal experimental crap.

[Dreamer Tatum]

295. It's viable in the sense that people make money from it. That's all.

Sorry you lik it and I don't. Them's the breaks.

[LBJDemocrat]

290. I agree

Rap is garbage. While the Summer Redstones of the world and other media bigshots rake in the cash, the American poor and working class are fed this crap that glamorizes stupidity and crime.

And I don't want to hear about alternative rap. As far as I'm concerned, it's a niche sub-genre for educated kids, who by and large don't suffer from what the culture promoted in rap music does to American society.

To be sure, other countries' rap scenes aren't as bad. The French rap listened to in the banlieus often does promote antisocial activities, but it encourages political awareness.

Look at the album art for some of Ludacris's albums for God's sake. There's one with a bunch of barely clothed women posing around a bucket of fried chicken. This stuff is absolutely disgusting.

[Deja Q]

89. And when it is more recognized for the bad instead of the good, there is a genuine problem.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Not all rap is bad ya idiot. nt

[AlCzervik]

16. i have The Roots on the loop, i guess i'll switch to something else in a few weeks

but i love them.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

300. I need to get some Roots in my collection

Where you do acquire most of your music?

[fl410]

19. You're right...most of it's fucking disgusting.

:eyes:

[iamthebandfanman]

20. take your superiority complex elsewhere

would ya ?

you and your whole 101 posts.

and on that note,

i say good day sir.....



and before you start to type something else that you perceive as witty....


I SAID GOOD DAY!

[tired]

106. How does the number of post bear any weight with what the person was trying to say?

you can take your 1000+ and walk away.

[donco6]

165. I'll see your 2815 posts, and raise 7963. eom

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

182. Problem is you have to redo the math everytime one of the two of you makes another post NT

[AlCzervik]

21. bye.

[fl410]

24. Well shit, you're right, I should embrace quasi-music that calls me a faggot.

What was I thinking?
:eyes:

[iamthebandfanman]

161. nobody said that in this branch of posts.

stop making shit up.

we were saying there is rap that doesnt use that word or other words of discrimination.

not all rap is bad.

im sorry you hate a certain type of music, but dont lump it all together. dont be so closed minded.

[donco6]

169. So, name a rapper who doesn't use bitch, faggot or ho.

I'll wait.

[Runcible Spoon]

285. Queen Latifah's music is woman-empowered.

I can't guarantee the absolute absence of those words in her music, but if they ARE used, they are in context of comments on women's repression and degradation,

[noamnety]

298. "bitch" isn't a sexist way to refer to women.

Skinner taught me that.

Maybe it's only sexist when rappers use it, not when white progressives use it. ;)

[noiretextatique]

202. clearly you have no idea what you are talking about

yet that doesn't stop you from talking. typical :eyes:

[ecstatic]

23. And your preference is...? Country music? Heavy metal? nt

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

181. Beats, rhymes, and life (as Tribe Called Quest so eloquently put it)

I'm kind of lumping all "rap" and "hip hop" together here, and it's kind of hard to tell where one ends and the other starts.

But anyway, at least with what I consider to be "hip hop," it's all about the creative and artistic beats, rhythms, phonetic rhymes, and yes, messages. They talk about meaningful messages, or just simple daily pleasures (even if they are a little non-traditional, like getting stoned and getting boned).

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

280. ....

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=bzNkwBeU2Us

[Lyric]

18. I don't condemn entire genres. I judge music based on the merits

of both the song and the artist.

Take Eminem, for example, since some of his stuff was so controversial. He had some songs that I really liked, but I refused to buy the album because I didn't want to pay money toward the homophobic songs that were contained on it.

It doesn't mean that I don't like rap. It just means that I don't like homophobia. I have a hard time finding rap artists who use no homophobic, sexist, or otherwise offensive labels in their entire albums, though. That makes it difficult for me to enjoy rap, other than individual songs heard on the radio. I use YouTube and iTunes preview to see which artists have albums that are "safe" to buy, and which albums are just hopeless, though.

Edit: Also, I admit that I am uncomfortable with the N-word being used in music. I understand the group-solidarity and "reclaiming the word for our own" movement, but since I am not part of the "group", I don't feel comfortable with it myself. I do understand the use within the black community, though--just like I understand the use of "queer" within the GLBT community. I'm part of that community, but I would never use that term to describe myself. I can't condemn others for feeling differently, though.

[otherlander]

27. Please don't generalize.

Listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4RZH75mB2w

Mr.Lif-Because They Made It That Way

It started with two turn tables and a mic
Lightning strike, electricity
MC rip rhymes DJ cut the wax viciously
The combo, maliciously brought, ingenious and precise
Mad nice, soon to be subject to mad heists
Niggas talkin bout they bought mad ice, livin the mad sheist
In the battle of art versus trends
Poetry ends when money contends the recipe blends and becomes diluted
Polluted in fact, but check whos been recruited
Intact with rhymes for your mind
Everydays a struggle 'cause society frames you
But raise your head and walk with pride because i came to...
Make It Better...

The only place I can find justice is deep inside of these lines
That i designed to explain situations of the times
People in general are targets of big money markets
And are all disposable unless you come ready to work
Fully posable with suit and tie
Ready to buy into the bullshit images
Of people claiming that money is what there religion is
Filthy females that are visionless
And foes that are precisionless
Let me be your mind's eye and vision this
Rise above, your power is limitless
The ghetto's designed to leave you spiritless
Living from day to day dodging AK spray
Niggas doing anything for pay
In streets that spite the light of day
The fallen gods been led astray
I must retaliate
"Why?"
Because they made it that way
"Word"
Fully educated rhyme spray
My way is to give you something to cling to
So you can survive dillemas that you live through
Then exist through your light
And focus on being in search of what's real
Instead of just relying on the steel.

"Make It Better"
"Remember?"
"Make It Better"

Check it,
This is the new lyrical selection
Red, black, and green protection
Motivation and pride connection
Moving the focus of your perception away from nice cars with fuel injection
The lesson is often taught, but never heard
Leaving your vision forever blurred
Killing for wealth in a world thats absurd, with hate in killing the fate
Delivered by your villian(?)
Fucked up from skunk and malt liquor and now he's illin'
'cause he hasn't had a meal in three days
Chop your neck in three ways, common occurences these days
Soon to be locked in a cell for raising hell
Looking back upon his life wondering where he fell
But martyrs tell of many uncivil nights
While battleing for civil rights
Niggas die 'cause ignorance plights
And ignorance fights progress
In all shapes and types
By blocking the lights of success from niggas sights
So one nigga snipes his brotha who he claimed he never likes
And snatches his adiddas and nikes
So I drop knowledge on mics until apocalypse strikes
Atomic blast blowing niggas off dirtbikes
I mold the soil into dirt spikes
And jump straight from the top of the chart
And drive 'em through the devil's heart
Its time to revolt and restart
And live our lives from the heart
And bring this music back to the art, rip it apart.

"Remember?" & "Make It Better"

[Hugabear]

31. Some rap has its merits. "Gangsta" rap can disappear, as far as I'm concerned

Maybe I'm old school. I like stuff by Public Enemy, LL Cool J, stuff from the late 80s and early 90s. Heck, there's even some recent stuff that I like. But I can do without this whole sub-genre of rap that glorifies the "thug" lifestyle, and denigrates woman and homosexuals.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

51. Hmmm

Well, the gangsta era's peak was 1988-1996 so it has been on decline for quite a while.

[Hugabear]

69. Maybe "gangsta" was the wrong term - but "thug" rap is still pretty popular

n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

78. It is in some ways, I guess.

I still think NWA, Dr. Dre, etc., were more hardcore than 50 cent or Ludicras. Now it's mostly about cars, money, and women. Back then, the lyrics, imho, were much more violent.

[bigmoon]

32. Songs that trash homosexuals are not free speech

Such speech should not be tolerated in a tolerant country

[Goblinmonger]

37. You do realize the contradiction

inherent in your post, right?

[bigmoon]

39. No

Tolerance does not mean you tolerate hate speech and music

[fl410]

42. Bingo!

:D

[Goblinmonger]

43. Perhaps

you could tolerate the fact that those that create and primarily listen to the music have a much different life experience than you do and what comes across as hate speech to you might not be so for them?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. I don't think that's relevant. Homophobic rap *is* objectively hateful.

No matter what the "life experience" informing it is.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be free, though.

[baby_mouse]

118. Homophobia is bad whether it's result of someone's life experience or not.

Would you defend a person's antisemitism because they were assaulted once by a Jewish person?

[Kajsa]

191. Personal life experiences

do not justify the use of epithets.

Hate speech is just that- Hate speech.

check it out--

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kajsa/2

[dsc]

199. So I presume you have no problem with Prussian Blue

and other racist groups?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

205. Prussian Blue are, in fact, racist.

:shrug:

[dsc]

210. and many rap artists are homophobes

and should be treated the same.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

211. Many opera singers hate Jews.

:shrug:

[dsc]

213. really

there are opera singers who write lyrics with kyke in them? Can you sight one, just one, who has done this? I will admit to not being an opera buff, I am pretty sure I would have heard of this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

214. Generally, Opera singers aren't the ones that write the lyrics.

That's up to composers, usually.

You're saying that opera singers are morally superior to rappers? Rappers are some sort of untermensch?

Interesting. Tell me more.

[dsc]

215. I'm saying if you are going to claim, as you did, that they are anti semitic

you need to come up with some evidence. You apparently have none. The fact is a huge percentage of rap muscians make their living denegrating both gays and women. Yes, I think people who don't do that are morally superior to those who do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

216. Why?

Have you got any evidence that rappers are homophobic?

I don't mean song lyrics, that's not evidence of anything.

[dsc]

226. If the words they choose to write and perform for the world aren't evidence of their beliefs

then why are Prussian Blue's words and lyrics evidence of theirs? You can't have it both ways. The fact is you care about racism but don't give a damn about homophobia or sexism thus you have a problem with Prussian Blue but not with rappers who use ho and faggot as if they are going out of style.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

227. Based on that standard of evidence, dsc...

Bob Marley was a vicious, unrepentant cop killer.

Prussian Blue are white supremacists outside of their lyrics.

[dsc]

231. Note I said words and lyrics

the words they have said in public count too. Did Prussian Blue beat up blacks when I wasn't looking? You are using the words they have written and uttered, just like I am using the words and lyrics rap artists have written and uttered. It is no different, except of course, you care about one and not the other.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

233. So you're saying there's no difference between lyrics and actual statements.

Bob Marley really is a cop killer, and Joe shot his old lady.

Interesting.

[dsc]

234. No I am saying that many rap artists have also made public comments in which they used the words fag

, faggot, and ho.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

235. f'rinstance?

[dsc]

238. this took about thirty seconds to find

http://ahotmess.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/why-are-people-putting-mics-in-front-of-ja-rul

We need to go step to MTV and Viacom, and lets talk about all these f–king shows that they have on MTV that is promoting homosexuality, that my kids can’t watch this sh-t,” he continued. “Dating shows that’s showing two guys or two girls in mid-afternoon. Let’s talk about s–t like that! If that’s not f–king up America, I don’t know what is.” (Source)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

239. This took less:

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/22796

[dsc]

242. and Wagner is singing where?

Last I checked he was dead. Incidently, Wagner is very rarely played in Israel for exactly the reason that he was a famous anti Semite.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

245. So it's OK when they're dead. Interesting.

"Incidently, Wagner is very rarely played in Israel for exactly the reason that he was a famous anti Semite."

So much, then, for your notion of rapper untermensch.

[dsc]

256. Actually, as you pointed out, Wagner isn't an opera singer

he was a composer. But more to the point, he also lived in an entirely different era. Current opera singers are no more responsible for his views than current classical pianists are gay since they place Chopin or the Russian guy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

257. And Ludacris isn't a singer, he's a rapper.

Oh course, this is just splitting hairs. You can do better.

"Current opera singers are no more responsible for his views than current classical pianists are gay since they place Chopin or the Russian guy."

So one can perform music with anti-semitic lyrics without being an anti-semite? Interesting.

[dsc]

260. actually the lyrics aren't the man was

To my knowledge none of his works that are performed are even remotely anti Semitic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

262. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal#Criticism_and_Influence

[dsc]

263. from your own link

Some writers see in the opera the promotion of racism and anti-semitism <27><28> suggesting that Parsifal was written in support of the ideas of Arthur de Gobineau who advocated Aryanism. Parsifal is proposed as the "pure-blooded" (ie Aryan) hero who overcomes Klingsor, who is perceived as a Jewish stereotype, particularly since he opposes the quasi-Christian Knights of the Grail. Such claims remain heavily debated,<29><30><31> since there is nothing explicit in the libretto to support them, and Cosima Wagner's diaries, which relate in great detail Wagner's thoughts over the last 14 years of his life (including the period covering the composition and first performance of Parsifal) never mention any such intention. Wagner first met Gobineau very briefly in 1876, but he only read Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races<32> in 1880. However, Wagner had completed the libretto for Parsifal by 1877, and the original drafts of the story date back to 1857. Despite this lack of chronology, Gobineau is frequently cited as a major inspiration for Parsifal.<33>

There is no evidence that Parsifal was perceived as racist by its contemporaries; otherwise it would be difficult to understand why the Bayreuth première was directed by the German-Jewish conductor Hermann Levi.

If indeed Parsifal so clearly expressed the concept of Aryan supremacy then it would doubtless have been popular with the Nazi party in 20th Century Germany. In fact, the Nazis placed a de facto ban on performances of Parsifal because of its "pacifist undertones".<34>

end of quote

This isn't even close to what the lyrics of typical rap song are. The equivalent would be if Wagner had written a libretto replete with Kyke this and kyke that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

264. So anti-semitism if fine, as long as he doesn't use the word "kyke"

Fascinating.

[dsc]

265. evidently you can't read

Now I understand why you don't find lyrics a problem. I will put in bold.

Some writers see in the opera the promotion of racism and anti-semitism <27><28> suggesting that Parsifal was written in support of the ideas of Arthur de Gobineau who advocated Aryanism. Parsifal is proposed as the "pure-blooded" (ie Aryan) hero who overcomes Klingsor, who is perceived as a Jewish stereotype, particularly since he opposes the quasi-Christian Knights of the Grail. Such claims remain heavily debated,<29><30><31> since there is nothing explicit in the libretto to support them, and Cosima Wagner's diaries, which relate in great detail Wagner's thoughts over the last 14 years of his life (including the period covering the composition and first performance of Parsifal) never mention any such intention. Wagner first met Gobineau very briefly in 1876, but he only read Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races<32> in 1880. However, Wagner had completed the libretto for Parsifal by 1877, and the original drafts of the story date back to 1857. Despite this lack of chronology, Gobineau is frequently cited as a major inspiration for Parsifal.<33>

There is no evidence that Parsifal was perceived as racist by its contemporaries; otherwise it would be difficult to understand why the Bayreuth première was directed by the German-Jewish conductor Hermann Levi.

If indeed Parsifal so clearly expressed the concept of Aryan supremacy then it would doubtless have been popular with the Nazi party in 20th Century Germany. In fact, the Nazis placed a de facto ban on performances of Parsifal because of its "pacifist undertones".<34>

Now I realize that some of the words are big but 'nothing explicit' and 'German Jewish conductor' should be clues.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

266. So you're not arguing that Wagner's work wasn't anti-semitic...

just that it wasn't explicit.

It's not the bigotry that bothers you, apparently. Just the obscenity.

Now it's all making sense.

[dsc]

269. It is at worst debatably so

Also fag isn't obscene under any definition I have heard of. It is homophobic though. On edit, there is also a huge difference between performing in an opera someone else wrote and writing a song oneself.

[Bluenorthwest]

243. A later note on this idiot

The Marley song is not about Marley, as one can tell from the lyric. In addition, the song is a plea of self defense from oppressive law enforcement, the one who shot the sheriff swears it was in self defense. He is also being accused of a second killing he did not commit. This is not about a vicious killer, and certainly not about an unrepentant killer, the speaker of the lyric is urgently urning to tell his story and speak the truth. His desire for redemption is the whole point of the song.
So you miss the mark in that way, and oh so many others.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

246. So you believe the words of a self-confessed cop killer?

He just swears "it was in self-defense" and you believe him?

Yeesh.

[Goblinmonger]

289. I have no problem with their existence

They have the right to say what they want. I do know that 100% of their songs (as far as I can tell) are racist. Not so with rap and the charges being made. Not so with most rappers and the charges being made.

But thinks for the false analogy.

[dsc]

292. so what percent of homophobic songs is OK?

Apparently the number is less than 100. Is it 90?, 80? 50?

[noiretextatique]

204. yes you do have to tolerate it

but you don't have to buy it or listen to it or like it.

[Toucano]

50. Yes it is.

How would you like it if I told you "songs that promote homosexuality are not free speech"?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

64. Of course they are.

The idea that only speech you agree with should be free is daft. The right to be wrong is one of the most important rights to protect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

185. tolerated is different from encouraged. i do no think that anyone is proposing a ban

but i do wonder about liberals who spend their money on artists in any genre who promote homophobia and sexism.

[emilyg]

33. I don' t know how any person can listen to this trash.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goblinmonger]

38. Wow. Judgmental much? n/t

[fl410]

40. Of course. Much, often, and justifiably!

As an atheist, I realize that somebody's gotta do it.
:D

[Goblinmonger]

44. I think the problem I and others had with the post

was the broadbrush statement about rap and not admitting/realizing that it isn't all homophobic, mysogonistic, etc.

[terrya]

68. I completely agree.

"Music" that is drenched in homophobia and misogyny. Wow, that's how *I* want to spend my time. :sarcasm:

[GeniusLib]

36. Some of the old stuff back in the 80's and 90's had a social purpose

but the crap now like the "crunk" is pure shit and I question the intelligence and tastes of anybody that listens to it.

[fl410]

41. The most amazing corollary of that observation is that some DUers actually defend that shit.

No, I can't explain it.

[Goblinmonger]

45. I don't want to live in a society

that limits speech to the extent you seem to want it limited. Do I like homophobes and mysogonists? No. Should they be defended in their right to express their thoughts? Yes. That's what true freedom means--defending those that offend you.

[readmoreoften]

46. Free speech means you don't go to prison, not "everyone has to accept what you say cuz you said it"

No one is obligated to defend those who offend you. In fact, that is reprehensible. The STATE cannot charge someone with a crime for their speech. That has nothing to do with promoting lies, bullshit, and total nonsense as "precious" because it spilled out of some moron's mouth.

It's funny how free speech advocates obsess over protecting Beenie Man from criticism--which is absurd--but don't fight the total censorship leveraged by the alliance of corporate power with the State.

The mass-marketing of the idea "Kill homos" brings tears to the eyes of knee-jerk 1st Amendment folks, but the systematic ridiculing of Dennis Kucinich and the suppression of his speech by capital interest is of secondary concern.

The right of a political 527 to call Hillary Clinton a C.U.N.T. is off-limits in terms of criticism because the precious idea spilled forth from someone's empty head, but Clear Channel's censorship of peace activists who wanted to purchase billboards from them falls under "their rights as a corporate person."

No, Beenie Man fans should not be jailed or charged with a crime but there is no one has the right to have their speech uncriticized or responded to with hostility. Freedom of Speech doesn't mean that racist, homophobic, sexist assholes don't deserve to reap what they sew.

[baby_mouse]

120. I think I love you.

:yourock:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

136. thank you. no one is banning rap or what comes out of some homophobes mouth

but if it call homophobic/sexist music trash, i have an equal first amendment right to it

[Toucano]

49. Liberals are in favor of free-speech.

Rap has artistic merit, regardless of the lack of "politically correct" content.

I always want an artist to tell or show me how he or she really feels.

Honesty matters to me.

[Bluebear]

52. So homophobic hate speech is considered a 'lack of "politically correct" content' to you?

Disgraceful.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

60. PS, tolerate? When you write 'faggot' it does sound like hate speech.

and in my neck of the woods, faggot and any derivation of same is as evil as the N word, it isn't used except by homophobes and bigots.

Be careful where you tread.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

207. the issue is free speech

not content of the speech.

[Bluebear]

223. The poster specifically called it a "lack of politically correct" speech.

[noiretextatique]

232. sorry...i read that post again

thankfully, i was too old when rap exploded, and already a die-hard fan of jazz and r&b. when i was young, my parents and i listened to the same music. i don't think there was anything (besides perhaps the last poets) that i liked that my parents would absolutely hate.

rap changed all of that. i never allowed my nieces and nephews to listen to it in my house because the constant beats were so annoying to me, and because i wanted them to listen to something other than rap.

i remember the very early days of rap with groups like the sugar hill gang, grandmaster flash, and kool moe dee. when i see those old videos now, they seem so innocent and mild compared to what's happened since.

the gangsta/thug hyper-masculine influence is truly foul, including its reverence of violence, money, profanity, homophobia, and misogyny, if i hear a particularly foul song when i am out at a club, i tell the dj or manager how offensive the song is to women (usually)or gay people.

i am encouraged by some recent developments in the world of hip hop, including the emergence of openly gay hiphoppers, rappers who are challenging the hyper-masculine worldview, the increasing power of women in the business.

your comment was right on to the poster re: "politically correct speech", btw...that comment was disgusting.

[Bluebear]

250. I agree with your every word.....

'when i was young, my parents and i listened to the same music'

Isn't that the truth? There was always a little chasm of what the latest generation likes, but it is discouragingly wide a gap now, not only in music, but in TV shows, movies, you name it.

[DainBramaged]

53. Doesn't most of this argument fall under 'not being able to yell fire

in a crowded theater'?


Anyone can listen to anything they want, and anyone can say anything they want unless the speech is meant to inflict harm. And speech does inflict harm. Then we have a problem. And I have the right not to listen to anything you (as a group) like to listen to.

Those of you who think Rap is music, fine, just don't think you can turn it on while you are driving in my car.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

56. Look up the word 'slander' in the dictionary then get back to me.

Ignorant of context? I think not. It's the content that is the result of ignorance.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

58. You missed the point entirely, but that's ok, I don't care

You just don't understand nuance.

Oh and your quote

"I think faggots are gross and bad"


Here, that kind of free speech gets you banned.

[Toucano]

59. Perhaps you didn't use NUANCE

Perhaps you used drivel.

Mmm. Yeah, I think so.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. "Incite to criminal behaviour", not just "inflict harm"

"Inflict harm" is far too nebulous and low a standard. Saying "Vote Obama" is intended to inflict harm on McCain.

The only speech that should be illegal in this context is that actively intended to incite criminal behaviour.

[DainBramaged]

70. Not by English standards

Slander laws there are much tougher than here, and why are any of you defending Rap anyway? It just plain sucks. By the way, how popular is rap in England?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. I couldn't give you a more specific answer than "moderately", I'm afraid.

From what I remember of our slander laws, for it to count as slander it has to cause harm, it has to be a falsehood, and you have known it was a falsehood or to have been negligent in checking whether it was or not; also, only an individual or entity who has actually been slandered can sue. I may be wrong about that, though, the book I'm remembering reading this in was fairly old.

It's also worth pointing out that Britain's laws at present arguably go too far in the direction of forbidding "hate speech", especially due to European influence.

I'm certainly defending the right to rap; I have no real interest in it as an art-form.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

62. Reform, not abolition!

There's a lot of gay-bashing out there, and rap is no exception. But there are hopeful signs that change is coming. Common, for example, came out and publicly apologized for past homophobia, and welcomed gay fans.

I think the big force for change is for LGBT rap and hip-hop fans to come out of the closet. Yes there are reasons why some of us like the music (and some of it really is talented music, believe it or not)

[Nevernose]

63. Remove the bigotry and it STILL sucks ass, as does music in general

There have always been good and bad rap songs, just as there have always been good and bad rock, R&B, country, whatever genre. But it's getting much, much worse. Music execs are so busy wondering why they're losing money and blaming Internet piracy, and it's never occurred to them is that the reason we're not buying their product is because it's largely SHIT.

It's the state of the entire music industry that's the problem.

1) Lowest common denominator: less and less regionalism and more nationalization of a few big brands, companies, and outlets.

2) Madison Avenue: a rapper's lyrical talent is less important that his clothing line, and can you imagine Janis Joplin getting a recording contract in 2008?

3) Rampant consumerism: we buy, as a society, whatever we're told to. Points one and two just feed into the fact that we'll buy whatever shit we're told to. Energy drinks, vitamin water, electric cars for kids, $200 pay-per-view sports packages, $200 shoes, new cars when the old ones are just fine, 3,000 square foot houses for families of three, specialized toilet scrubbers (w/ disposable attachments), the latest 50 Cent album.

[donco6]

67. I've never understood the interest.

What I've heard is strained, sing-song elementary rhyming, usually complaining about something. I get that at school every day for free.

[LWolf]

85. .

:rofl:

I couldn't have said it better.

[superduperfarleft]

93. Says the guy with the Jello Biafra picture in his signature.

That's rich. I bet you're a Henry Rollins fan too.

[LWolf]

104. Says the WOMAN with

the Jello Biafra picture in her signature, lol.

I've never heard of Henry Rollins.

That pic is in my signature as a way of saying "FUCK YOU" to several DUers who called DUers supporting DK in his efforts to impeach a "cult." Which was, of course, mostly sour grapes because, according to them, it drew attention away from their preferred "cult," the only cult they think is legitimate at DU.

While I'm not a Dead Kennedys fan, I have listened to one of his spoken-word albums. We have more in common politically than we do musically.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. The Dead Kennedys? You listen to that gangsta rap trash?

"Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rate's gone
Feel free again
O' life's a dream with you, Miss Lily White
Jane Fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals it's okay
So let's get dressed and dance away the night

While they:
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight "


Tsk tsk tsk. Advocating mass murder and class warfare.

No real liberal would listen to that garbage.

[LWolf]

151. Actually, I said I wasn't a fan.

Perhaps you've neglected the "sarcasm" smiley; or you have a reading comprehension deficit, or you just like to use fallacy to make a rather muddled point.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. Thank goodness.

No real liberal would listen to a group that advocates the murder of the Kennedy clan.

[LWolf]

154. "Real liberals" might listen to anything.

That's the thing about being "liberal," isn't it? A real "liberal" is supposed to be more open-minded, and more tolerant.

Which is a good point.

I don't mind saying I don't like rap; that it has no redeeming qualities that I can find.

I'm not campaigning for it to be silenced, though.

I believe that's a point in the lyrics you posted for me. ;)

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

178. LWolf, where can I find a bigger version of this Jello Biafra pic?

I used to be a HUGE fan of him, but he starts to get boring and repetitive if you listen to him for long enough. But I still like a lot of what he stands for.

[LWolf]

194. I got this one from a DUer

in '03, when the primaries were heating up.

I'm not sure where to find a larger version; perhaps you could enlarge this one?

[Runcible Spoon]

228. you know what your main problem is allow no role for metaphor in artistic expression

or anything else for that matter. Either that, or as I suspect you know very well what you are doing is setting up simplistic rhetorical traps for others to fall into whilst they are defending the main structure of their argument. Some may not be eloquent or quite as syntactically clever, but that doesn't make them more "wrong". People have dedicated their entire private and academic lives to observing, experiencing, and then finally making judgments on the way physical cultural is intended, received, and changed within the ever mutable procession of change in social values and mores. Most of those people would really disagree with you.

The main point is: it is intellectually dishonest to suggest that the Dead Kennedys never actually agitated for nor actively engaged in any activities which could be construed as "advocating the murder of the Kennedy clan", nor that the poster referencing them actually believed that as well.

[donco6]

268. i.e., "intentionally obtuse" eom

[baby_mouse]

117. Damn straight. NT

[DainBramaged]

71. Crap, rap with a C.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

109. GM = crap.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. LOL

[marmar]

73. There's a lot of homophobia and sexism in rap (as in rock), but this is a rash generalization....

Perhaps its your ignorance of the genre that causes you to generalize. The rap that goes big on the charts tends to be junk, and sometimes homophobic and/or mysoginist, but with notable exceptions. (Kanye West, just as an example, has been very critical of homophobia in rap.)
It's very easy to generalize and make blanket statements about something you don't understand. That's the impetus behind much of the racism, homophobia and other -isms and -obias in the world in the first place, n'est-ce pas?

[RadiationTherapy]

75. It's art. Get it?

[closeupready]

76. Is it art or is it diarrhea? Hard to tell the difference.

n/t

[RadiationTherapy]

80. Is that your opinion or useless anonymous bullshit? Hard to tell.

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. He's got anti-semitic porn as his avatar.

Don't feed it.

[RadiationTherapy]

90. I don't get the avatar comment...

huh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. Well, first off. It's a nude.

And we all know porn degrades women.

And second, it's got gentile features, even though David was Jewish.

Sick, sick shit, and no liberal would even look at that sculpture.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

132. porn is photography of a sexual act. not nudity. the second part doesnt even make sense

and i guess you were trying to make a point, but it was very stupid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. I will agree it's very stupid.

That's pretty much the whole point, Einstein.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

134. no, the original point you were refuting wasnt even half as stupid

as your example thereof.

its hard to tell whether what comes out of ludakris's mouth is art or diarrhea. which honestly, its often how other forms of art is criticized.

however your comment about the avatar, just plain idiotic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. The point I was refuting...

was equally stupid.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. no it wasnt. music can be art or diarrhea. the avatar is what is it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

140. People's arguments can be art, or diarrhea...

Your arguments are diarrhea.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. sure. nt

[DainBramaged]

200. You are full of shit, and the last thing I would do is post bigoted comments

Since you turned off your pm's after you sent me one, I thought I'd address your bullshit accusation comment here. Members of my IMMEDIATE family are Gay, so if you think you are being cute with your bullshit, bring it on.

I am always suspect of members who don't have the guts to be proud and post their profile while hiding behind the anonymity of this forum (and others).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

203. that's the old "I've got lots of black friends" argument.

Doesn't float.

[DainBramaged]

212. Go to hell you aren't worth my time.

usually, it's the lurkers from the other side who disguise themselves as Progressives and cry "oooh you made a bad comment" (just like the McSame campaign) to disrupt the board and it's members. And your broad-brush accusations are bullshit. If you had proof you would have included it in your ridiculous PM, gutless.

Take your one-liners to the Hannity board. We are done.

[closeupready]

111. Oooooo. You so burned me there.

:rofl:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. no, i dont. its also words. words can be homophobic and shoudl be criticized

the op did not say he wants to do away with rap but i too wonder about liberals who support homophobes and sexists by buying their 'art'

[RadiationTherapy]

91. I agree. I did get away from the main point of the OP

which was criticising his lyrics; I will not defend the use of violent language.

I got caught up in a metathought.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. a lot of rap is homophobic. i find it amusing that people get all upset that a musical genre

is criticized whereas they ignore the homophobic content

people are so full of shit

[RadiationTherapy]

81. Well, criticism is one thing, implying it is not art or that it should not exist can get tiring.

Homophobic crap also gets tiring, but I want rap to evolve not disappear.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

82. sure. i agree.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Don't get me started on that gangsta rapper- Mark Knopfler.

Damn uppity negroes going around the place corrupting our white children.

[Goblinmonger]

94. You need to do a study

on the number of people who don't get your posts and don't realize how damn funny you are.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. Meh.

It's funny because of the shear number of hypocrite bigots that don't get it.

[Goblinmonger]

131. Well

I'm a fan. keep it up.

[superduperfarleft]

98. Or Dr. Cornel West.

Horrible, hateful music he puts out.

[wvbygod]

186. Some of our mothers ought to lock up their daughters

Sitting on a fence is a dangerous course.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

190. Oh, certainly.

There are an awful lot of menacing black men running around.

[superduperfarleft]

95. All rock is misogynist.

How do I know? Well, I watched a couple minutes of some Poison and Motley Crue music videos back in the 80s. Therefore, I feel justified in basing my opinion of an entire genre on that bit of research.

And all rock these days sucks. That's right, I said all rock. How do I know? Well, I heard part of a Matchbox 20 song and then a Nickleback song on the radio the other day. Therefore, I feel justified in stating that all rock is bland and commercialized and all rock musicians are completely lacking in any talent whatsoever.

It's all stolen from black people anyway...

[Neshanic]

99. It is insanely homophobic and misogyinistic. Art my ass.

[Occam Bandage]

Dupe.

[Occam Bandage]

100. Must all art further viewpoints you find acceptable?

[marmar]

101. Wow. When's your next book-burning party?

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

113. I see ignored people here (you not one of them)

because of the ignorance. They aren't worth your time of day.

[Toucano]

121. .

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. He's got everybody on ignore...

but it's other people who are ignorant.

:rofl:

[Toucano]

129. I think that's par for the course.

From his profile:

"I am so tired of FAUX Democrats, Rethug gun lovers, and assholes lurking here who bash our values and candidates. And 'members' who try and get you banned for not agreeing with their opinions. Too many cliques spoil the conversation."

And in the wee hours last night, he did exactly that to me because I didn't agree with him. And send me a nasty PM declaring his intention to "have me tombstoned". Of course, he blocks PM's from me so he won't be challenged with a response.

Complete hypocrite.

All those deleted messages upthread are mine, but no matter. A closed mind is a closed mind, regardless of political affiliation.

Perhaps it's inappropriate or against the rules to discuss another member's actions here, but if it is, I'm sure I'll be notified.

:toast:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. atleast he didnt ask you to go back to the country you came from

he did that to me

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

142. Well you are Indian, aren't you?

A lot of Indians are misogynist.

i find it amusing that people get all upset that foreigners are criticized whereas they ignore the misogyny

people are so full of shit

[La Lioness Priyanka]

146. another really stupid argument to counter a good argument. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Another hypocritical double standard.

Interesting.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

155. against what? what is double standard against?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

160. Your argument is good when you use it.

But not when other people use the exact same argument to demonstrate how stupid it is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

167. your not using my argument at all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

189. Yes, I'm afraid I am.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

195. i'm afraid you really are not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

206. Illustrate the difference.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

149. Huh?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

150. #77

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

143. I wish we imported Indian cars.

Just to piss that asshole off.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

145. lol

:hi:

[donco6]

158. He wouldn't get the joke. eom

[DainBramaged]

164. Would you like to join the crowd?

Obviously you didn't get to read the deleted posts by one of our firneds here, otherwise you'd not have made such a stupid comment.

[Runcible Spoon]

224. hahaha you announced you ignored me because I suggested Big American Auto had better

get its shit together and that I wouldn't be against a complete restructuring of corporate practices in American business. I'm sure I'm on other ignore lists, but your reason was probably the stupidest I've seen.

Ta ta Sunshine.

[donco6]

108. I guess this is art, too:

[closeupready]

112. According to some here, apparently, it is. If ink is set to paper,

anything that results is "art". This explains the rationale behind much of "modern art." lol

[Toucano]

122. I wouldn't call that art, but I would say it has social and historical significance.

As a liberal, I would actually watch it because I think there is something to be learned from it.

As a liberal, I might listen to Ludacris for the same reason. It doesn't mean I support or agree with him simply because I am interested in his point of view and his unique experience.

Would you suggest it should be destroyed or locked away?

[donco6]

139. I wouldn't destroy or lock away Ludacris either.

But I would ask that people recognize it for what it's causing - just as this anti-Semitic propaganda helped to bring about violence against Jews. Ludacris can produce whatever he wants; but sensible people need to know that promoting him is like hanging one of these posters in your storefront.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. You're saying Ludacris is causing homophobia?

Is Harry Potter causing satanism?

[donco6]

156. Yes . . . and no.

Answered both your questions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

157. Odd.

Is it because Harry Potter is written by a white woman?

[Toucano]

163. It's not the same.

Ludacris has no political voice. He has an artistic voice.

Nazi propaganda was produced with the intention of communicating a message about Jews to the intended audience.

Ludacris's use of the word "faggot" is not even directed at gay people. It's just a generalized insult, commonly used in his individual experience. If he changed it to something else, it would be dishonest.

I'm holding "The Best Gay Erotica of 07" by Cleis Press in my hand. The word appears at least two dozen times.

Do you think I should not support or promote the authors who used that verboten word?

[donco6]

166. How is artistic not political?

Good grief, he just wrote a song about Obama, fer chrissake. I mean, that's the whole point of this thread.

But you know, if someone is this blind about what is offensive - take, for example, when someone is telling you it's offensive - then there's no point in continuing the communication.

[Toucano]

168. You have a right to be offended by anything you see or hear.

I have no moral obligation to accommodate you, salve your inner child, or tolerate your tantrum. What you are offended at is your problem, not mine.

When the fundies say they want a scene of two men kissing or holding hands edited out of a film because it offends them, do you think anyone is obliged to accommodate them?

Don't like Ludacris, don't listen. The point of the OP was "how can a liberal listen to that".


I have been explaining how a liberal can listen to that and a lot of people want to jam their fingers in their ears.


An artist can choose to make a political expression, but they are by no means obliged to do so. Their only obligation is to express themselves truthfully. Otherwise there is no art.

We cannot control what happens outside of ourselves. You can only control how we react to things. An offensive word only has the power that YOU DECIDE TO GIVE IT, especially when taken out of context.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

196. a liberal can stand up for free speech without applauding the speech

i dont understand how you cant see that

[Toucano]

251. I haven't applauded his speech.

I am applauding his exercising his right to express himself freely.

Would it be the same problem if he said "gay muthafuckers"?

What if he said, "All you tall muthafuckers"? Or "green-eyed muthafuckers"?


It really has nothing to do with gay people. It's just a generalized insult which is a reality of our society. People say such things to insult one another. The artist reflects the world around them or they're just doing paint by numbers or it's musical equivalent, Pat Boone.

I thought all this was settled when Elton John performed with Eminem.

[donco6]

259. Good God. Are you for real?

That last sentence just effing p*ssed me off.

"I thought all this was settled when Elton John performed with Eminem."

Like Elton effing John can speak for all gay people. Cheeerist.

:mad:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

261. Yet Ludacris speaks for all rappers?

There's that odd double standard again.

[Toucano]

267. I think you've taken that the wrong way.

The point Elton John made was the same point I am making.

Merely using a word does not make someone a homophobe or a bigot. Elton John performed with him to convey that fact a lot of people who have knee-jerk reactions are failing to realize.

Eminem is not a homophobe or a bigot, but he frequently has used a word common in his environment to reflect and communicate something about his reality.

If he didn't, he'd be Pat Boone, or in this case, Vanilla Ice.

Art without honesty is nothing. Ludacris is not automatically a homophobic bigot because he employs a commonly used expression.

[donco6]

270. So art can never teach, but merely reflect.

Otherwise, it's "dishonest".

Frankly, I'm thinking in this case, honestly is highly overrated.

[Toucano]

271. I never said that.

Art can reflect society, it can distort that reflection, it can influence society. Sometimes it does all three at the same time.

One could take several lessons from the Ludicris controversy.

1. As related to the OP, obviously, some liberals champion free expression even when it is offensive.

2. Offensive words in and of themselves are not dangerous. They can only hurt you as much as you let them.

3. Conventional wisdom is seldom wise.

4. "faggot muthafuckers" is an interesting oxymoron.


Please consider that James Dobson has never been recorded using the word "faggot", or at least millions of people haven't heard it. Yet he has done far more to suppress gays and lesbians than Ludacris or Eminem or any rapper.

His power is in his actions, not his words. Justice and equality will come from actions, not from words.

Anyone who has seen Monty Python's "Life of Brian" will no doubt recall the scene of the man being stoned for uttering a forbidden word. "That halibut was good enough for Jehovah". Rocks fly. Then the official responsible for organizing the stoning accidentally utters "Jehovah" and falls under a flurry of stones himself.

That is exactly what we are doing to ourselves with all these forbidden words. It's foolishness, infantile, and futile.

Thank you for allowing me to show you that. :yourock:

[donco6]

272. Wait a minute, I'm not letting you off that easy.

You said,

"Eminem is not a homophobe or a bigot, but he frequently has used a word common in his environment to reflect and communicate something about his reality.

If he didn't, he'd be Pat Boone, or in this case, Vanilla Ice."

So which are you saying: That for art to be superior to Pat Boone music or Vanilla Ice music, it must reflect reality. So much so, that to eliminate the language that offends would render the piece "dishonest".

Or, that art which inpires, while admittedly NOT reflecting reality, is profoundly reduced to the calibre of the aforementioned Pat Boone and Vanilla Ice.

??

Now, I do get your point about actions and words - good one. I get it. But even the Bible questions both positions. On the one hand, it warns against the tongue - "So the tongue is also a little member, and boasts great things. See how a small fire can spread to a large forest!" But it confirms many times that actions supercede words - the Parable of the Sons, for example.

I just don't believe that a) it's a harmless epithet (no matter what you say - sorry!), and that b) people who use it should be allowed to do so with impunity.

[Toucano]

273. You see a chasm between "inspiration" and "reflection" I think.

Unless I've misunderstood.

By "art which inspires" are you referring to something not based in reality, like fantasy?

Even if it's a fantasy or an pure invention it has to be honest. It has to capture and reveal something about the creative experience in an honest way. It could be an imagined fear, a nightmare, a vision or a dream.

That's not always gritty or ugly. It can be beautiful, too.

Pat Boone is a wonderful example. He became famous and made a lot of money covering Little Richard and Chuck Berry songs. Cleaned up, white-radio friendly versions of Little Richard songs. All the naughty and offensive bits taken away.

Have you ever heard a musician say they were influenced by Pat Boone? But according the his wiki article, Little Richard is cited as an influence of "Otis Redding, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr, Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Pete Townshend, Roger Daltry, John Fogerty, Dick Dale, Bob Seger, Jimi Hendrix, Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, David Bowie, and numerous other rock n' roll icons..."

Why? Because what he created was HONEST. It came from his experience, his time on the planet. It isn't necessarily a perfect reflection. Things do get distorted, but it's seed was honest.

Pat Boone's versions are dishonest. Not because he didn't create them, but because they stripped away the truth in order to not offend the white radio listeners. Or at least not offend the parents of the white radio listeners. They're meaningless and forgotten.

Prince caught the attention of Tipper Gore for "Darling Nikki", remember?

I knew a girl named Nikki
I guess you could say she was a sex fiend.
I met her in a hotel lobby masturbating with a magazine.

What if he had tried to not offend Mrs. Gore:

I knew a girl named Nikki
I guess you could say she was a MAN fiend.
I met her in a hotel lobby WHILE SHE WAS READING A MAGAZINE.

Hardly conveys the same experience does it?


Another good example is Larry Kramer's first novel "Faggots". If he had cleaned it up, or dirtied it up to the point of being false, it would not have had the impact it did.

A VanGogh is not an accurate reflection of it's subject. It's a distortion. In that distortion is a new perspective, something to be conveyed from one person to another. Maybe it's beautiful, maybe it's ugly. Each person can decide for themselves, but I think part of being a liberal is encouraging honest expression.


I would not put Ludacris in the same category with these other greats, but who knows? Maybe the next generation will.

[donco6]

276. Well, yes and no (as usual).

I wouldn't say "chasm" as that begs a false dichotomy right off the bat. But I think I understand more about where you're coming from. How's this:

When I think of "reflection", I tend to think of representation - This Is How Things Are. A simple photograph, for example. A recording of a moment in time. Rather boring. But honest - no?

Well, if you think about it - probably "no." A picture may show a happy little boy eating birthday cake. Undisputably accurate. But is it a true reflection if it doesn't reveal the truth? The truth is perhaps that the birthday cake is a guilt offering from parents who are in the midst of a divorce and they haven't said anything yet. Kind of changes the reflection to rather a lie, then.

In this case, perhaps a song could capture that truth much more so than the photograph. Singing Happy Birthday would be a lie; singing a song about surface happiness founded on unknown grief would be truthful. The reflection is like Snow White's mirror - it shows no image, yet tells the truth.

Inspiration, however, I do see as a DIFFERENT thing. I truly have looked at the lyrics of quite a few popular rap songs. I just see no inspiration there. It all seems so hopeless and resigned. Nothing moves me to be better than I am, to think more highly of humanity. It's great at reflecting accurately - often to disgusting lengths. Offensive lengths. Potentially dangerous lengths, even. Horst Wessel, anyone? (I apologize in advance for the Nazi reference, but there have been SOME rappers and reggae bands that have advocated violence against my class.)

At heart, I guess I'm just too much of a romantic. I've never liked art photography. Give me a Monet or Van Gogh. I want to see the beauty of the world, ripped open and exposed in it's most vibrant hues. I want to experience the artists inspiration - his/her attempt at expressing the mixed up mass of senses using some inadequate medium. I just find rap to be a very, very clumsy attempt.

On edit: I must say, you have made me think about this. Thank you.

[Toucano]

277. Thank you, too.

I regret that I didn't get to respond to your other thread before it got locked because I think your attempt to take the topic out of the realm of just rap lyrics alone had merit.

Your description of the birthday photo is very good example. I think you've understood my point very clearly and I am gratified!

I look forward to talking to you again soon.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

274. are tall muthafuckers already oppressed in society?

also why would you assume elton john speaks for me? does george bush speak for you?

[Toucano]

275. I think they're advantaged, actually.

Does that make a difference?

Tall people still have feelings don't they? They get offended about basketball jokes, I know.

Let's make it "all you fat muthafuckers". Are they sufficiently oppressed to merit being handled with kid gloves so as not to offend?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

293. yes it does. i think you are just deliberately being coy.

frankly i am no longer interested in indulging this BS

[slackmaster]

114. Ludacris is a homophobic bigot

It's that simple.

[bigmoon]

153. Exactly

And his 'hate music' should not be tolerated

[TankLV]

172. Exactly. Nice to see people willing to excuse bigotry and hatred...

nothing ever changes...

SHAME ON ALL OF YOU WHO CAN'T SEE THE HATEFUL BIGOTRY!!!

SHAME!!!

[noiretextatique]

219. what do you mean by "tolerated?"

ludacris is a buffoon, imho. i don't care for him or his music, so i don't buy it and i don't listen to it...i don't tolerate it. i am not surprised by anything he says because like many in the music industry, he will say anything to make money.

[mudesi]

147. I don't like rap. Not enough guitar solos (nm)

[iamthebandfanman]

162. i think it needs more

cowbell

personally

[Neshanic]

171. You see we fags don't get art. It's the underlying message, the hidden "satire", it's the artist.

I know, I know, I still don't get the satire of the New Yorker cover and have been punished accordingly by having my Bravo taken away from me by the Homosexual Agenda Police/Card Division, but the "fag, homo, bitch" and all must have some artistic meaning that somehow, just someday I will understand. Will I as a musically/lyric challenged fag ever get the sublime beauty of a well turned lyric that has faggot and kill in the same sentence?

Oh there is hope as I see a field of people in tall grass listening to the latest song, and the beauty of the parents explaining the structure and magnificence of the song. And the lyrics! Oh they will be so proud telling their kids as the song is preformed onstage that faggots, kill faggots, and bitch are the pinnacle of our culture,our society, and they must understand that this, these words are to be enshrined, they are part of a bigger thing that "others" don't get the beauty of.

What a day that will be. We will all hold hands, well except for the faggy people who don't want to look all gay, but all the same most will hold hands and know that they have passed on a wonderfull society tradition of boxing in hate and disgust in the shiny catch all box that is "art".

Will you hold hands with me?

[TankLV]

173. YOU "get it".

Too bad for all the other IGNORANT IDIOTS above who are all to willing to EXCUSE THE INEXCUSABLE!!!

[donco6]

187. I'll hold hands.

Even if it makes me look all "faggy".

I still find it hard to believe they give out awards for this crap. And they had to struggle about whether to allow Beenie Man to attend. "Golly, should we invite the guy who encourages people to kill the Batty Boys? . . . hmmm . . . thinking . . . "

[MrSlayer]

174. I would be forced to watch and listen to nothing but pap if I had to worry about liberal credentials

in art. Only, good, wholesome movies like the Wizard of Oz (blech) and music by Neil Sedaka and Jim Neighbors (double blech). Fuck that.

[Evoman]

175. Pick out one rapper, and then use that to condemn an entire genre of music.

Cool. We should do the same with country, and rock, and whatever hell else music people like.

And then we can listen to relaxing music like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsC0BCAwkb4

[RandomKoolzip]

176. Research project: go find out about Aesop Rock. Go download some of his music.

Not just the OP; all the people who say hiphop isn't "music."* Then try, with a straight face, to tell me that hiphop isn't music. I suggest you begin with the song "Holy Smokes." Go ahead! Be "open-minded!" I dare you.

* this argument cracks me up; it's as if John Cage never existed! ANYTHING can be music, y'all.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

184. op didnt say that though. the op said specifically that he doesnt understand

how liberal can hear homophobic trash from said artist and genre

i agree with that statement. i know liberals who excuse the homophobia/sexism in their music. i dont understand why one 'sponsors' that shit with their money.

i also think hip hop and rap is music. sometimes good music, sometimes really terrible music. like any other musical genre

[donco6]

188. Sheer art.

Holy Smoke.

Well they were selfish with the helmets on the little bus 'til break fluid sewage crippled up the get retarded nickle punks. Slowly cope, but swore his lowly robot foley folk would one day rise in sections to interrogate the Holy Ghost. Holy smokes, father, black suit, white collar, kiddy porn dungeon, guns and 3 fingers for your daughters caught belly up. Antique Nazi paraphernalia. You cannot pay your bills with holy water and Hail Mary luck. Shucks, fucker, enjoy the Alcatraz shower fun and Mommy's mad I'm cliche generation X agnostic fron. It ain't the nifty faith of 1958 before the new new testament approved altar boy fisting rape and take me to your leader, long as he don't manipulate toddler beaver .Call me crazy but I'd bet that wasn't God's demeanor. Sodometere peaking. But Long Island was Jesus every weekend, spoon-fed to appease traditional upbringing of a middle Pennsylvania shit hole where elder's movement stressed a stellar therapeutic bible cycle. One church with a bait and tackle store next door and not much more. So the two moved to New York, made babies raised on what they'd saw. Christmas morning smelled fresher than angel pussy, but Immaculate Conception came second to playful goodies. Like Laser Tag as way more spiritual than blood and body wafer bags and manger staff as long as Santa ate the cookies. Grandma was a saint while he'd paint with snakes and bullies, said "If only you'd memorize your prayers like you did your Kool G." See by the time I's old enough to know what religion was, I's Catholicism numb and truly didn't give a fuck. '94 moved out the crib and ain't seen a steple since, while Knievel evil seeps in the Christian leaders pitch. 'Til priest lap slapped with parental advisory warnings, I'll be auditioning gods in my office on Monday morning.

[tired]

192. AESOP ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is the best out there IMO!!!

[and-justice-for-all]

177. Rap is terrible...

and it's loaded with violence, sexism and homophobia.

[hopewell1985]

197. quit

your crying its just words

[La Lioness Priyanka]

198. quit your whining about his word. nt

[noiretextatique]

208. i am a black lesbian...i have a solution for you

don't listen to rap music :shrug:

[nomorenomore08]

217. Wow... I feel like somebody walking into a destroyed house the morning after a brawl.

With all the accusations and insults thrown back and forth, the only conclusion I can reach is that some people will never see eye to eye with others. On the one hand, saying someone isn't a "real liberal" because of the music they listen to (or the movies they watch, etc.) is not only arbitrary and stupid, but opens up quite the can of worms. Hell, if you think Ludacris is bad, I could post some GG Allin or Cannibal Corpse lyrics that would curl your hair like Don Imus's.

On the other hand, though, shouting people down saying they shouldn't be offended, is just plain rude behavior. It's only marginally more acceptable online than IRL, and that's not saying much. Listen to/read/watch whatever you want, I don't think any "oversensitive" person is trying to take it away from you, so there's no need to get indignant about their indignance. All you guys worried about the "PC police" should just CHILL, because there's really no such thing, just individuals who happen to have different tastes/opinions from yourself.

There I go again, refusing to take a side in an argument, and probably pissing everybody off in the process... :eyes:

[fascisthunter]

218. one homophobic rapper does not make all rap bad

[flvegan]

221. I'm astounded that this thread still lives.

[nomorenomore08]

240. Blame me for resurrecting it...

:evilfrown:

[donco6]

247. Ugh. Me too. Astonishing and depressing. eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

248. It's a good'n

:thumbsup:

[DainBramaged]

252. there have been some fucked up comments made here

it has drawn out the homophobes, to say the least

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

253. Really? Where?

I don't see any homophobes.

I see a few cultural bigots, but no homophobes.

[Toucano]

254. You can't resist, can you?

:rofl:

You are such a hooligan!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

255. I'm starting to get bored.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[superduperfarleft]

296. I'm astounded that so many DUers aren't just happy to be ignorant,

...they are actually proud of it. Many have flat out admitted (directly or indirectly) that they don't listen to hiphop, and yet they feel somehow qualified to offer broadbrush opinions on the entire genre.

Never mind the disturbing subtext that a condemnation of Ludicrous is impossible without a condemnation of ALL hiphop, as if all black people should have to answer for something that one untalented fool (that happens to be black) does.

[BlooInBloo]

258. If a black person said it, Obama must answer for it. Welcome to America.

[Runcible Spoon]

282. I wonder how much hatred of rap music is tied to bourgeoisie fear of prole anger and expression....

I hear the same thing from the bourgeoisie about reggaeton and cumbia here in Argentina.

It's not just a taste for a certain aural aesthetic; all music has been historically used to propagate political and social movements, yes even classical music.

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

287. That's another reason for anti-rap sentiment

The discontent over homophobia in rap is a legitimate concern, but a lot of the anti-rap sentiment is rooted elsewhere. Part of it is, as you said, bourgeois fear. And part of it is disgust over the culture and aesthetics of the clothes, the beats, and the rhythms. Most right wing culture warriors associate rap music with partying of one form or another, so there's a reason to hate it right there!

[noamnety]

297. Yep. Huge double standard.

White folks on the left are still holding up John Lennon as a savior, playing Imagine as their anthem, and aren't ever expected to apologize for lyrics like these:

"Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead"

and I see it in the clothing as well. In the 80's, people wore boxers as shorts - men and women alike found crazy patterned ones, sewed up the fly, and wore them all over the place. I was on a running team for the army and we wore boxers as our "uniform" - representing the army in public and NOBODY had a problem with that. Now that it's part of "black culture" though suddenly we have to write laws against 3 inches of boxer waistband showing. I know institutionalized racism takes a lot of forms, but I am still shocked at that one for some reason.

Decent clothes that good white people can wear:


Requires new laws to prohibit indecent exposure when black people wear the same thing, but mostly cover them up:

[Karl_Bonner_1982]

299. I started turning my hats sideways recently

Partly because I heard booboos about the way people were wearing hats, jeans, shirts, etc. The last couple years the cultural conservatives have gotten really nasty about fashion and music once again, so I found a new way to express my contempt and show solidarity for liberal social values.