"The worker of the world has nothing to lose, but their chains, workers of the world unite."

[marmar]

Say what you want about Marxism itself, but Karl Heinrich Marx was right on this one.

:applause:

[DangerDave921]

1. And then what?

Unite? OK. What is the next step?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Work.

For proper wages and benefit.

Duh.

[DangerDave921]

7. Sorry

I meant more specifically what is to be done.

The average worker is so busy working to get by that it leaves precious little time to organize, march, etc.

[baldguy]

6. A proper Labor Party would give workers' issues a voice at the table

Which they don't have now.

[DangerDave921]

11. No voice

And I have to say, I don't like the world when even our elected Dem leaders are super-rich like Kerry and Pelosi and Edwards and Clinton. Can any average working person really trust that John Kerry (just to pick a name) has any concept what it's like to have to save, go in debt to buy stuff for the kids, worry about getting sick and missing a mortgage payment?

They SAY they understand, but do they? How can they, living in luxury?

[slackmaster]

10. Breakfast

[starroute]

13. Uniting starts with not letting them divide us

Marx's point was the the workers of one nation have more in common with workers of other nations than with their bosses. A hundred years ago, people thought that message was getting through -- but World War I really messed up the expectations of a lot of socialists when the working classes of the combatant nations obediently allowed themselves to be herded into the various national armies and sent out to shoot each other down.

And then, of course, the Nazis devoted a large part of their ideology to convincing Germans that their nation was an "organic" whole, with the upper and lower classes indivisibly welded together in a smoothly-functioning unit. Persecuting the Jews and other minorities was not so much even an expression of age-old prejudices as it was a reflection of the need to turn back Marx's universalism by finding an external enemy.

In more contemporary terms, you might say that poor working class blacks and poor working class whites need to get together and figure out what would advance their mutual interests. Or that Americans who feel they've been put out of a job by illegal immigrants should recognize that they and the illegals are both being screwed by the same system -- and make that their target.

It's always easier said than done. It's always simpler to blame the people you see around you, who are pretty much on your own level but just a little bit alien, rather than the remote and incomprehensible bosses -- particularly if you feel your livelihood depends on those bosses. Marx knew that, he knew that the first step was pointing the fact out -- but he may not have known where to go with it next.

[DangerDave921]

14. Good points

But talks like these are alwasy in generalities. In reality, what are low-income workers in the US and in Thailand supposed to do to work together? It's almost impossible. There is no universal board to file a grievance.

Other than unions, I haven't seen any other method of getting bargaining power. And hate to say it, but I am not all that fond of unions in certain sectors due to the lack of individual accomplishment. Unions are necessary and have achieved a lot, but I'd prefer not to be in one.

[Hydra]

2. Yup

There are less controllers than their are slaves. MUCH less.

Let them try working for a living.

[wurzel]

3. His diagnosis was perfect. His remedy a disaster

Socialism is very poor at creating wealth, but very good at distributing that wealth. Capitalism is very good at creating wealth, but lousy at distributing that wealth. What is required is managed capitalism with strong unions. Something we used to have.

[Hannah Bell]

5. what was his remedy?

"i don't write recipes for the cookshops of the future."

[baldguy]

8. The EU seems to be surviving OK with socialism.

Of course, its not pure Marxist socialism - but the America isn't pure free market capitalism either. Never has been.

The problem with both systems comes when the needs of the majority are sacrificed for the needs of the few.

[Romulox]

9. Bail out of the financial sector = socialism

The healthiest, most prosperous nations in the world are "democratic socialist" states in Europe.

[napoleon_in_rags]

12. Capitalism isn't looking so good at creating wealth these days

contrasted to its more "socialist" counterparts
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?amt=1&from=USD&to=EUR&submit=Convert