Southern Baptist scholar says spousal abuse stems from wife’s refusal to submit to husbands.

[stevedeshazer]

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/30/southern-baptist-scholar-says-spousal-abuse-stems-from-wife%e2%80%99s-refusal-to-submit-to-husbands/

<snip>

Bruce Ware — a Southern Baptist scholar – argued that one reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband’s God-given authority:

“And husbands on their parts, because they’re sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged - -or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches,” Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.

----

[SteppingRazor]

1. I'm totally forwarding this story to my wife.

:popcorn:

[DearAbby]

9. Don't make me stop this thread.....-n/t

[cliffordu]

47. Can I come over and watch what happens when she catches you??

:popcorn:

[Marrah_G]

57. It's been nice knowing you!

[roguevalley]

69. this guy is a complete asshole. I could stomp his ass. How about

that for spousal abuse? thank god the men in my family are REAL MEN who like women to be equal. I think the intensity of this kind of thinking is in direct proportion to the smallness of their penis.

Jesus would not agree with them. He loved women and respected them. These dickless weiners are totally stompable.

[Dogtown]

97. Yes, Ms. Dogtown

will foam at the mouth...

[dkf]

2. Well I guess when one is taught to think like a neanderthal

one will act like a neanderthal.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. You think they only treat their spouses this way?

[jgraz]

3. "Southern Baptist Scholar" -- if there's a bigger oxymoron, I've yet to hear it

[eppur_se_muova]

58. LOLOL!! A genuine oxymoran! nt

[MercutioATC]

4. See? They ARE asking for it...

:popcorn:

[Papa Boule]

14. If only you'd {fill in the blank} daddy wouldn't {fill in the blank} so much.

"And we only hit because we LOVE and you're BAD and totally need or deserve it."

Nice to see such memes validated by Southern Baptist academia.

[malaise]

5. Some men are raving lunatics

Invent gods and then state with certainty that men have a god-given right to do what the fugg they want.

[crikkett]

6. I wonder why this is even news.

Southern Baptist Scholars come a dime/a dozen.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Typical "blame the victim" mentality

If one of the largest mainstream Christian denominations makes a statement this asinine, can I call it a mainstream Christian attitude?

[Redbear]

16. The Southern Baptist Convention is not mainstream

They do not represent the views of most protestants, nor do they represent the views of many Baptists.

[TechBear_Seattle]

21. But they ARE the largest Protestant denomination in the United States

How can you claim they are not mainstream?

[Chulanowa]

29. Well, the truth is...

No Christian group is ever mainstream when they say or do something fucking stupid. To hear other Christians tell it, every single person is a church unto himself... Until it comes to something good, then they're all in it together.

[TechBear_Seattle]

30. So it is back to the "No True Christian" fallacy

A denominational body, even if it is one of the largest in the country, is expressing a true Christian doctrine only if you agree with it. Otherwise, they are just saying "something fucking stupid."

Do I have right?

[Chulanowa]

72. Mmm, something along those lines

It's more of a passing the buck thing. Whenever a Christian does something whackadoo, other Christians scurry to point out, "He's not with us! He's a Catholic / Baptist / Mormon / Not-Christian-Because-of-Doctrine-X"

If another Christian from the whackadoo's sect does something kickass, though, we get all these other christians coming out from under the fridge, espousing the love and unity they have with all Christian denominations.

Basic strategy is that when it comes time for praise, they're all there begging, and when it comes to scorn, none are to be found.

But hte "Not a true christian" thing comes into play quite often as well. In this case we have people making infinite exception - "Well, he's one of THEM and I'm not, so that doesn't count towards me!" rather than "He's not a true believer because he truly beleives that"

[Redbear]

38. If numbers are what matters.

There are 150 million Americans who self-identify as christian.

Only about 16 million are Southern Baptist.

In fact, "Southern" Baptists only represent about 50% of all christians who identify themselves as Baptists.

But numbers only tell a portion of the story.

The Southern Baptist Convention was highjacked by fundamentalists in the 1980s and their theology has not been mainstream since that time.

It's convenient to tar all christians with the SBC brush, but it is not at all accurate.

[LibertyLover]

51. And there was a story out about a month ago

that the Southern Baptists have inflated their membership numbers and have for years. Apparently if you visited a Southern Baptist church, even once, you got counted as a member. If you moved away, you remained on the church's rolls as a member. If you were no longer active as a church member, you still got counted as a member. So, the number of members, self-reported by the Southern Baptist Convention, is itself suspect.

[Papa Boule]

22. They're certainly mainstream in the South

And huge in some states.

[skooooo]

24. 2nd that...

They are as mainstream as anything I guess.

[The Stranger]

48. Yes they do.

It is just that most don't want to admit it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. No, wait, let me guess. They put sugar in their porridge, right? -nt

[bumblebee1]

95. No, Commie Pinko dirtbag,

more like p*ss.

[kestrel91316]

32. Only if you think Jesus would approve of wife-beating.....

Southern Baptists may be numerous, but they are not representative of the Christianity I grew up with (we were Presbyterian, which is pretty stodgy as opposed to fire-and-brimstone whackadoodlery).

[TechBear_Seattle]

74. Irrelevant strawman argument

And rather sloppy use of the "no true Christian" fallacy.

The point is: The SBA is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. How can the utterances of their General Convention not be considered mainstream?

[madokie]

8. trouble is so many really believe this tripe

I could just see me after "I asserted my authority." Yep, I'd be black and blue and dickless too and bloody all over

[haydukelives]

10. LOL

Me too!

[momster]

11. Either...or

So this god-fearing man thinks another man can only respond to a woman by becoming 'passive, acquiescent,' etc, or by turning into the Incredible Hulk. What do *you* do, Mr. Ware? And what does Mrs. Ware have to say?

[Vickers]

12. Wow, that's so....scholarly.

:eyes:

[L0oniX]

13. I'd like to respond to Bruce Ware's authority by beating the fuck out of him.

I pity Bruce Ware's wife and kids and I got to wonder why any woman would be a member of his church of fools.

[av8rdave]

15. Denton...right up the road from me

We do have some crackpot churches around here!

[fudge stripe cookays]

76. I graduated from UNT!

This makes me sad....

:cry:

[cobalt1999]

17. Wow, that's insulting to men.

He thinks men have the attitude "If you don't submit to me, I'll beat you". Any low life that hits a woman is going to do so regardless.

I always joke with my wife I had to go through the stages of grief after getting married...

1) Denial - "I'm still in charge"
2) Anger - "Damn it, let me make a decision!"
3) Depression - "Why is my life out of my control? Pass me a beer."
4) Acceptance - Where I answer every question "Let me ask my wife".

[Vanje]

18. James Dobson has spouted similar doctrine.

on his Focus on the Family radio show.


In a show I heard sometime in the nineties.
Dobsons rantings were that, sure, men ARE pigs.....because their wives force them to be by not allowing him to be head of the household , as God intended. Behind every rotten jerk, is a domineering or disobedient wife.
SHE made him do it.

[kestrel91316]

34. My most recent BF turned out to be a rotten jerk, and he didn't even

HAVE a wife behind him. I suppose Dobson would say it was because he was raised Catholic and therefore under the Devil's influence........

[Vanje]

37. That poor guy!

Its not his fault he is a rotten jerk.
Not his fault!
If he had the loving submissive support of a Godly Christian woman, he would be humanitarian of the year!

[kestrel91316]

64. Well, it's definitely my fault. I SO TOTALLY failed him on that count, lol.

FWIW, when my sister got married in 1981 she told her fiance no way in hell was she saying the part of the vows about submission. She told the minister, too. We were all cool with that. And they are STILL very happily married all these years later - it's a partnership, as it should be.

[undergroundpanther]

104. Same shit

Same shit.. adam shifted the blame off himself for eating forbidden fruit and blamed eve,when they both got busted eating fruit eve had given to him. He could have said no I don't want any ,but he chose to eat it anyway (some authority huh?)and the patriarchal monster dickhead "god" like a true asshole it is, blamed eve for adam's decision to eat it.

To this day patriarchal males shift the blame,to the females,victim for rape(shouldn't be out at night,wear a short skirt),the drudgery like household chores(I'm tired I dunno how) .child rearing,(here honey change the diaper) onto women.So because the bibble says it was the woman's fault men still think they can act like children, bullies and think they are entitled to be taken care of by women..Assholes using religion to reinforce dick privilege like dobson, does..Can't admit they want a Mommy,a sex doll and an obedient slave ,not a real person for a wife.

BEFORE you decent guys get defensive, be aware I KNOW there are always exceptions too.Decent guys out there.

For men that pull this dick privilege shit, you know who you are,.

I have seen for myself how men are raised to disrespect women (even by their own mothers).They make jokes about rape,call women bitches, and the men around him chortle,they don't call the joker a sick asshole.Why?

Why is it the woman after she gets off work, is whom often cooks and cleans,while the male sits on his ass and eats.For years this kind of selfish shit was never seen as the patriarchal based callousness it is..

Ever notice men clean house less than women do? Why is that,why do so many men need to be TOLD when to clean a toilet like a child for? Anyone with eyes can see when it gets dirty, why is it too often the woman who cleans it,and it is by men assumed it is always her job...When asked to help with cleaning I have heard men ,50 year olds claim they are tired(like the woman isn't tired too after working all day) or the men claim they don't know how to do it,and it's not like they will let a woman SHOW them how to either.

Oh the fragile ego of a man-child. This is what the baptist pieces of shit want to protect dick privilege,and the household little lord Fauntleroy. What is really sickening is this game men play about housecleaning(there are more games housecleaning is but one of them) it puts the woman in a catch 22 where she is still the one cleaning up after the man-child. I have seen how men let shit get so nasty the woman has to clean it, this is very manipulative and passive-aggressive on the men's part. I think it is because they like to hold onto the privilege to assume someone else will do it.So they never do it and make excuses to never do it..

[flakey_foont]

19. whaaaaaaaaa?

unbelievably schtooooopit

[Lyric]

20. Attention!

The Sparkly Heart-Footed Elephant of Joy has informed me that it is my Elephant-Given right to ogle all left-handed people in the shower. If you thwart me while I'm attempting to exercise my Elephant-Given right, I am not responsible for whatever noogies and swirlys you might receive as a result.

[guitar man]

25. damn :(

I'm not left handed, I wanted to be ogled :cry:

:rofl:

[Lyric]

35. I'll have to pray the Special Elephant Prayer

and ask if it's okay to ogle an upstanding right-handed citizen like yourself. The prayer involves a Sacred Recipe for Holy Peanut Brittle, recited ten times while standing on one foot and snapping the fingers of your right hand. Snapping the fingers of the left hand is HERESY. Reciting a recipe for Pecan Pralines is an abomination that shall be punished with Eternal Swirlys of DOOM.

I'll get back to you on the ogling part when I get an answer. ;)

[guitar man]

55. oh, btw

is it ok if I'm a Pastafarian? :P

[Lyric]

56. No! *gasp*

What kind of paganistic heretic ARE you?? I'm shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED. The Sparkly Heart-Footed Elephant of Joy does NOT approve of your spaghetti-mongering ways!

:grr:
:rofl:

[guitar man]

60. well

if you ever decide to commit the mortal sin of ogling my right-handed, spaghetti-loving physique in the shower, let me know. It is quite a sight to behold, especially the meatballs :D

:rofl: :hi:

[Lyric]

61. ...

Just as long as you're not going to be flipping any limp noodles at me. :rofl:

[guitar man]

62. no

I prefer my pasta uncooked :D

[MountainLaurel]

65. You know, I felt like I was being watched last night

Just figured it was the dogs, trying to get a drink again.

[guitar man]

23. jeez, why don't these people just leave?

I mean, the more I read, the more I realize they would probably be happier in a fundamentalist country like Saudi Arabia. Hell, they could stone their wives to death and get away with it...:eyes:

[jobycom]

26. Yet if you used that same logic on robbery, they'd call you a communist.

Robbery stems from a person's refusal to give away all their property when ordered. Rape stems from a person's refusal to submit to sex when ordered.

The abuse isn't just the striking after the spouse's "insubordination," the abuse is requiring the wife to submit in the first place. Even if she submits to avoid being hit, she's still been abused.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. Scholar ..... yeahsurerightwatever

........... fucking asshats

[indepat]

28. What utter, contemptible and complete garbage from a sewer-mouth

:D

[1monster]

31. And this non-Southern Baptist woman says that spousal abuse stems from one

partner trying to domniate and control the other. Whether it is the male abusing the female, the female abusing the male, or both abusing each other.

I assume the same is true in a homosexual relationship that is abusive.

A marriage is not one person in authority over the other. It is an equal partnership in which authority is shared equally.

[Kajsa]

33. Hear, hear!

"It is an equal partnership in which authority is shared equally."

Thank You,1monster!

:applause:

[1monster]

43. You're welcome... but it is what I truly believe.

[kestrel91316]

36. After some deep thought........

Any Baptist dude who tried to beat me, the little wifey, into submission would only think he had got his way until the cyanide kicked in.

[Gormy Cuss]

39. If women would stop acting like men, there wouldn't be this problem

More from Ware's fetid brain:

Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.

"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men...

So the short message is that women should just shut up and breed. It must be tough for infertile women to hear this tripe. What is God's message there, that they're pre-approved to be left behind after the rapture?

[mnhtnbb]

40. It's always the woman's fault with patriarchal a$$holes. The problem is

so many girls are brainwashed by these pompous, egotistical, sadistic creeps into believing
this crap, so they grow up willing to accept this shit rather than learning to think for themselves
and reject this BS.

[Hydra]

42. In the words of George Carlin:

"It's bullshit, and it's bad for ya!"

If any "Real Christians" in this country would like to be taken seriously, they need to start shouting these people down...assuming these misogynists really ARE the minority(which evidence seems to dispute).

Take the easy way and say "These people aren't Christians" and you will have proven George completely right. "Pure Bullshit"

[Solly Mack]

44. Dear Bruce - All men sleep

Might wanna remember that when spouting your bullshit

[fudge stripe cookays]

77. .

:rofl:

My dad threatened my mom once. He was 6'4"; she was 5' . My dad was usually a pretty mellow guy, but my mom knows how to press EVERYONE'S buttons.

She just told him to go to sleep. He never did that again, because he knew what a deep sleeper he was.

[johnaries]

45. Uh-oh, looks like the thinkprogress servers is down.

Must be God's vengeance. :sarcasm:

[napi21]

46. This is not only the So. Baptists! I remember when I was in a

Catholic grade & all girls high school, we were taught that "the husband" was the leader of the family and a good Catholic wife must always submit to his wishes & desires! I also remember hearing the phrase "A man's home is his castle, and he is the KING" being repeated often, at school & at home. Now, I'm 64yo, so that was before the feminist movement. I think that's why so many "religious people hate the feminists...they've been taught all their lives that women leaders are against God's will!

BTW, I joined the feminist movement in the 60's & still support most of what they do.

[fudge stripe cookays]

78. I like Lizz Winstead's view...

"What's the highest rank a woman can have in the Catholic church?

Nun. Yep! Sock it to me one more time!"

[Brigid]

86. Not true.

"Nun" is not a "rank." A nun is a member of a religious order. Priests are the only ones who can administer the sacraments. Only men can be priests, for reasons that may be convoluted (and beyond the scope of this post -- google women priests to check them out in detail) but don't involve women being considered inferior or unworthy of such a calling. It's also worth noting that the priesthood being reserved for men doesn't mean they are considered to be somehow "better" than women. The feminist in me still doesn't like it and hopes it will change one day. But in the meantime, Catholic women take a backseat to nobody. We serve as chancellors in diocean offices, as coordinators of religious education, eucaristic ministers, members of parish councils, chaplains in hospitals and prisons, run just about any kind of charity you could name. We run hospitals, schools, and universities; and we were doing so long before women in other segments of society were. We serve in just about any capacity, including leadership roles, that doesn't require ordination to the priesthood or the deaconate. We are encouraged to get educations in order to prepare for these roles; and in fact about 85% of these positions are filled by women. The contributions of Catholic women to God's work in this world are legendary (Mother Theresa, anyone?). And as far as marriage -- it is considered to be an equal commitment by both husband and wife, and each is are expected to love and respect the other. That is why extensive preparation is required before the sacrament of matrimony can take place.

It is true that the Catholic Church has a history toward women that could most charitably be called "checkered." But there is a reason why well-educated, intelligent women feel comfortable there -- we are respected and valued partners. Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church for further details on the role of women in the church.

[stevedeshazer]

87. I appreciate your well reasoned post

But, respectfully, your church has a long way to go in terms of equal rights for women, and that's not to denigrate the well-educated, intelligent women who are adherents of your religion.

When the Catholic Church recognizes women as priests, allows priests to marry, and effectively deals with the sexual abuse of children, you'll have a better argument, in my opinion.

I was touched, indirectly, by Mother Teresa through someone I know and that she saved from certain earthly death.

Hoping for a better world,

Yours,

Steve

[riverdeep]

90. How many female Popes have there been?

How many were even considered? Just because your particular sect doesn't burn brides, or force marriage at thirteen or some other crazy-ass shit, doesn't mean it's enlightened.

[fudge stripe cookays]

93. Yo, Sister Mary Perpetua....

It was a JOKE.

And I'm an EX Catholic. There's a reason for that. Respected and valued partners get to decide for themselves that they want to limit the size of their families. A little man in a pointy hat will never do that for me.

Thanks for playing.

[redqueen]

49. Nice.

Why do women like that book again?

[Bake]

50. Sad. I remember when there really WERE "Southern Baptist scholars."

I studied under profs like Dale Moody (systematic theology), J.J. Owens (OT and biblical archaeology), George Beasley-Murray (NT), Frank Stagg (NT and Greek), Jim Blevins (NT), et al. at the "Mother Seminary" of the SBC - Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.

They're all gone now, sadly.

Bake

[LeftishBrit]

52. How utterly disgusting!

I HATE authoritarian right-wingers who bolster their views by claiming that God is on their side.

That can be the Baptist God, other Protestant God, Catholic God, Muslim God, Jewish God, or the Greek God Zeus. The problem isn't the religion as such; it's its use by authoritarian right-wingers.

[tjwash]

53. "Southern Baptist Scholar". Now THERE's the king of oxymorons.

:rofl:

[grace0418]

54. Yeah, well this Chicago Proponent of Sanity says that anyone who tries to justify

spousal abuse is a total fucking idiot as well as a piece of shit.

[iverglas]

59. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind some people of another thread

Probably no one will remember it, but I'd like to point it out anyway.

Someone at DU posted an article entitled "Woman Says She’s Being Evicted From Shelter Because Of Her Religion".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1611922&mesg_id=1611922

My bullshit detector sprang into action. I suspected something quite different from the conclusion to which many DU members were leaping: that a women's shelter was discriminating against non-Christians, based on this mission statement (with my emphasis):

Our Purpose

The numbers are alarming - ONE in every THREE women is a victim of domestic violence. In this country, a woman is abused by her husband or partner every NINE seconds. As a result, action has been taken by many organizations to help victims of domestic violence.

It is our belief that there is a definite need for an outreach program to Christian women who are in abusive relationships. We have found that no one is automatically safe because of her race, religion, the amount of money she makes or how long she went to school.

Getting women to admit they are victims and to attend support meetings is still a problem, and it's even more difficult for Christian women to reach out. This is a sensitive issue that many churches have not addressed. Christian women tend to stay in marriages longer for religious reasons, even though they are being abused.

S.A.V.E. (Survivors Against Violent Environments) is an organization founded by Christian women whose objective is to provide a safe place for women, particularly Christian women, to meet and share their concerns in a confidential environment.

The weekly meetings and childcare are free. We have an evening meeting and day time meeting. S.A.V.E. provide resources and empowerment tools. Women who are interested should call our 24 hour crisis line at [phone]. For more information and details on the meetings.

I suspected that this was outreach to women whose fundmentalist churches, clergy, husbands and family were failing them when they were abused, and who were themselves too brainwashed and intimidated to seek help. Special needs women.

I was right. The director of the organization replied to my email, and in fact we became friends. (I'm a 40-year militant atheist, in case anyone wonders.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1611922&mesg_id=1614436

Our subsequent private discussions dislosed more than is shown there -- her ongoing, frustrated efforts to get assistance from Christian churches to fund and staff and otherwise support the organization, to refer women in crisis to the organization, to publicize it in their congregations. Met, for the most part, by a brick wall of silence.

The article linked to in the OP pretty much demonstrates the need for what that organization was doing, and the special problems that some Christian women are indeed up against.

[sakabatou]

63. DIAF

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. FOESADIAF

[sakabatou]

75. FOES?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Fuck Off, Eat Shit And. (Not you, of course, the "scholar.")

[RainDog]

66. good god, I'd love to slap the shit out of that asshole

let him spend some time in a woman's shelter and tell me how it's also the kids' fault b/c they don't submit to daddy, who hits them after he hits mom.

some times I really wish that southern baptists (I had to attend that church for the first 18 years of my life) would spontaneously combust. That would be the one useful outcome of all their hot air, as far as I can see.

[liberal1973]

70. Bruce ware is an idiot.

"their wives is because women rebel against their husband’s God-given authority:"

lol..
:rofl:

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[carlyhippy]

73. why is it these idiots are always from Texas? Good God

they must have invaded after I left the state or something, I don't remember people being so strange.

[GOPBasher]

79. That's actually true! Everytime my wife beats the shit out of me, it's b/c she

didn't submit to my refusal to do the dishes. :shrug:

[Bluenorthwest]

80. so that's why they oppose gay marriage!

they can't figure out who should be beating who.

[End Of The Road]

81. "Southern Baptist" + "scholar" = "oxymoron" nt

[Le Taz Hot]

82. I wish to HELL the rapture would get here

already, carry all these people up to their heaven and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

[Brigid]

84. Every woman in that church should walk out.

I have no idea what any self-respecting woman would want with a church where such drivel is taught. :grr:

[comtec]

101. You hit it on the head with "self-respecting"

Having known women in (psychologically at least) abusive relationships, they just don't think they're are worth it.
My wife told me flat out ages ago, if I lay so much as a finger on her she's walking out on me.... after she kills me.

[lonestarnot]

85. WTF?

:wtf: Blame the victim in church. What is wrong with these people! :banghead:

[pleah]

88. That guy better pray he never meets this chick face to face.

Dynamite comes in small packages. :rofl:

[comtec]

102. *swoon* :)

[psychmommy]

89. you told harpo to beat me?

a classic line from the color purple, oprah commenced to beating harpo's tail.
i always took those scriptures to mean that the man was the spiritual head of the household.that the man was supposed to love and protect his wife as jesus loves and protects the church. jesus gave his life for the sinners (church) and man was supposed to do the same for his wife. i never understood that to mean that the man gets to kick the wife's butt on the regular. i read spare the rod, spoil the child. no scripture that i have ever read advocates spousal abuse.

[riverdeep]

91. Does this surprise anyone?

They've been saying this stuff for a long time. In various ways. Brainwashing on a grand scale. How many women are going to avoid leaving, or getting help now? How many kids are going to watch Daddy hit Mommy and listen to Mommy say, "It's okay honey, I talked back."

[Solly Mack]

98. You're absolutely correct

It teaches women they deserve it - and that it's their lack of faith and their lack of belief and their lack. Period.

Such thinking is about nothing but the control of women.

And as it starts when the women are girls and the men are boys - that's years of brainwashing that fully indoctrinates them and makes getting them help that much harder.

And the cycle you pointed out, where the kids see the parents act this diseased thinking act, only serves to brainwash the next generation even more.

[Rex]

92. Imagine his surprise when he gets pitchforked in Hell!

Whoops!

[bumblebee1]

96. Pitchforked in Hell??

Hell, I'd rather pitchfork him here on earth.

[Brigid]

94. This is exactly why . . .

there is so much hostility toward Christianity around DU. Threads about idiots like Bruce Ware get started, and pretty soon anyone who is a Christian is thought to believe as he does. Fundamentalist Christianity is based on a distorted view of the Bible, of human nature, and of humanity's relationship to God. How about ordinary christians who go to work every day, take care of their families, and do their best to live as God wants them to live in this world? Believe it or not, we do exist. It's just that those hostile to Christianity enjoy using people like Ware as an excuse to mock us. That is no more open-minded than the rigid, unloving creed Ware espouses.

[Fran Kubelik]

99. Agreed, wholeheartedly. nt

[Dogtown]

103. Clean your own house, Brigid

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I do respect many things I've read in your posts.

I am an atheist that used to be tolerant of religion, but can be no more. Religion has evolved from a storm-anchor just slowing us down to a powder-monkey with a nicotine habit.

Since you are a Christian, and apparently somewhat devout, it's your (you being one of the non-aggressive, mainstream, non-violent Christians) responsibility to control the rabid, twisted and perverse elements that are careening your faith toward an auto-de-fe rebirth.

The oft repeated tendency to explain away these rogue elements by tagging them "not real Christians" is nothing more than a bandaid. There are an awful lot of them, and they make a lot of noise. If your society can't police it's own, perhaps they are in the majority of that society and Christians are, with some exceptions, exactly what they claim not to be.

I realize that you are Catholic and many of these harmful creatures repudiate you as apostate, but there are many outspoken and authoritative Catholics spreading the same messages of intolerance and hatred. If Christians are *not* dominated and led by misogynistic, homophobic, greedy, hateful, spiteful lusters-for-political power, we need to see that.

I never feared or hated Christians until around 1980. (It appears I should have.) I mostly ignored them as inconsequential; they had their thing, it wasn't mine, but it wasn't my business either.

Now I truly fear the establishment of a theocracy in this country. The apologists and republican activists here will belittle that fear and sling mud to drown out the message, but it's very clear we have much to fear.

Silence them. The "good" Christians need to organize, mobilize, and cleanse their ranks of the vermin or your faith will lose all credibility.



Once again, please let me stress that this is not an attack on you personally or the rant of an atheist god-denyer. I've tried not to be offensive.

(sorry, editted to remove a dangling line that made no sense) :blush:

[KansDem]

100. Call me old fashioned, but I never saw the attraction of wanting sex with an unwilling partner.

But I guess that's just me...

And "yes" I know "submission" means more than just sex...

I like this response from the link:

Nevar Says:

— a Southern Baptist scholar –

the oxymoron of the day

June 30th, 2008 at 10:16 am :rofl:

[asteroid2003QQ47]

105. Bruce Ware - a Southern Baptist Patriarch

"Violence is extremely common in the family; wife battering and incest provide two instances of this principle. If spousal abuse were included in the FBI's figures on assault, its incidence would increase by over 20 times.
Patriarchy lies at the core of wife beating."

Erich Goode, Ph.D, in DEVIANT BEHAVIOR
Prentice Hall, Inc. ISBN 0-13-531294-9
--------------------------------------
Women tend to be more religious than men thus in a kind of Catch 22 circular thing,
they enable the Patriarchs who abuse them. The blame lies not with women but with the
hostage taking Patriarch (think Stockholm Syndrome).
IMO the plight of women could only improve if they evolved beyond their need for imaginary gods.
Ultimately, men would benefit too but most of them are to stupid to realize it!