Latest RW blogger wet dream about Canadian health care.

[Narkos]

Anyone care to debunk?
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=299282509335931

[Mojorabbit]

1. I don't know how their system works

but I have medicare and make an appt with any doctor I want and medicare pays for it. What they don't pay I pay in cash but there are supplemental plans available.
The docs are free agents and don't work for the state. It seems to work fine.

[LynnTheDem]

2. They sure are deeply ignorantly stupid, aren't they.

Rightwingnuts, I mean.

[LynnTheDem]

3. Articles with facts, versus rightwingnut wet dream fantasies...

The United States pays far more than Canada per capita for its health care services, yet Canadians get better care, according to various experts.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1503



The U.S. spends much more on health care than Canada, ..... Canada performed better on 11 indicators;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

Life Expectancy higher in Canada
Falling Behind: Life expectancy in the United States ranks 42nd in the world, down from 11th two decades ago. Experts point to several factors for the drop, including obesity and lack of health insurance.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070812/news_1n12life.html

Canada's health system beats U.S. in cost and results
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20071205

U.S. Health Care Most Expensive & Most Error Prone
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/medical_errors.html

The Canadian Healthcare System
A comparison reveals pretty good healthcare outcomes – generally better than those in the USA and the UK and more akin to those associated with high spending ...
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Canada.pdf

[Mr. Blonde]

9. My understanding is that the US

system is very good at handling bad cases, the problem is we get more of them.

Infant mortality for instance. An underweight or premature baby is far more likely to survive in a US hospital. However, because there are so many more born in US hospitals still more die. This, to me, is a reflection of our fix the problem instead of prevent the problem mindset. If we were better educated about health issues we could avoid this.

I would bet this trend holds true past birth and extends into the health problems that come with life.

Preventative measures would do this country a world of good.

[pnorman]

4. A Google search of that assertion, turns up virtually NOTHING of value.

Essentially, it turns out to be the same gang of Talking Rectums, all quoting exactly the same claptrap. Here's what comes up so far: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-12,GGGL:en&as_qdr=all&q=%22Claude+Castonguay%22+canada+%22de+vires%22&start=10&sa=N

I'll keep Googling, but I expect it'll be the SAME BOGUS MISINFORMATION. On the other hand, all the articles I've ever seen so far in defense of the Canadian system (and other similar plans), hold up very well to critical Googling, Why am I NOT surprised?

pnorman
On edit: Googling "Sylvia Vires', also yields a pretty skimpy catch: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-12%2CGGGL%3Aen&as_qdr=all&q=%22Sylvia+de+Vires%22&btnG=Search Considering the purported circumstances ("Sylvia de Vires....afflicted with a 13-inch, fluid-filled tumor weighing 40 pounds, was unable to get timely care."), I would have expected to have seen it plastered on every opposition paper or blog in Canada. But apparently, there was NOTHING --- only a circle-jerk of the usual Talking Rectums.

[anigbrowl]

14. I did find some more stuff

'Sylvia Vires' was spelt wrong. Slvia De Vries did have a tumor and did get it treated in the US, but was denied reimbursement because she did not apply for it before departure (apparently 94% of such applications are granted). She was not denied treatment in Canada because she failed to fill out a form (try getting treatment in the US without filling out forms, even in the ER!), but because (apparently) her doctor was incompetent.

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=c97f54cb-71a8-494f-bf4b-db0c444827d4 and
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22Sylvia+de+Vries%22&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=lang_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr=

Inexplicably, most of the articles in the Canadian papers cost $2.75 for reprints, which I have no intention of paying. Way to increase your readership, guys.

Mind you, I think the most effective rebuttal to this (like most IBD editorials) is to point out that they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater - that because of a small number of high-profile failures, they are assuming the entire system to be hopelessly inadequate. Sounds like Ms. De Vires' original doctor in Canada was incompetent or suchlike and did a very bad job. Well, if you only focus on the failures then any system at all will look like crap (of course this is true in the US too...much as I admire Michael Moore's Sicko it's not exactly objective).

As usual with oppponents of public healthcare, IBD is equating clinical standards with accessibility. It doesn't occur to them that if Ms De Vries had been a US citizen she might be in a similar situation if her insurer had decided her cancer couldn't be covered, and that such decisions are made quite often.

[pnorman]

17. I SHOULD have suspected a mis-spelling, but failed to try out likely possibilities.

and "De Vries" most certainly was one of the first choices that should have come to mind. Thanks for digging it out, as well as putting it in the proper context!

But it is significant to note that the mis-spelling didn't originate from those Talking Rectums all quoting each other (inherently, an error-creating process). NO! It originated with the original "source". That should tell us a lot about it!

pnorman

[Monk06]

5. It's IBD which is a notorious RW blog shop. Self debunking. Move on please.

[pnorman]

6. With all due respect, to me NOTHING is "self-debunking".

n/t

pnorman

[Monk06]

7. Well if you consider Investor Business Daily, the third most quoted 'news' source be Free Republic

a legitimate source then fill your boots.

IBD is a blog and none of their commentators
have any experience or reputation as business
writers. They are RW spammers full stop period.

[pnorman]

8. I consider it essentially in the same manner as you do.

But I function in venues a LOT more adversarial than DU. Believe me, there is NO choir there for me to preach to! But I almost always prevail, and with a bare minimum of ill will. That to me, is the POINT of such discourse. Refuting such RW bullshit by Googling (as had been done on this thread), is a LOT more effective than self-righteous posturing.

pnorman

[Monk06]

11. Characterizing my remark re IBD as "Self righteous posturing" is a bit self righteous on your part.

Doncha think? BTW I think you are over estimating
your rhetorical skills.

[pnorman]

12. NOV SCHMOZ KA POP?

Have a good day!

pnorman

[Monk06]

16. What's that R Crumb meets the Katzenjammer Kids? Are you old enough to date girls yet?

[pnorman]

18. Probably TOO "old". The very thought gives me a nosebleed! (sigh!)

I well remember that Hitch-hiker, Smokey Stover and a lot more. Here's a little background on that era: http://www.toonopedia.com/squirrlc.htm

Can you guess my age?

pnorman
PS: NOV SCHMOZ KA POP! (Meaning: "Lighten up, while you still have your youth!"

[Monk06]

19. I might be a little more positively disposed toward you if you stop trying to tutor me

You remind me of a former brother in law. Whenever
I would make an idle comment concerning current
events he would reply, "Oh didn't you know that?"
He was a fairly decent guy but insufferably pedantic.

Don't presume to instruct me and maybe I will take you
more seriously.

Re IBD I've been tracking their stories on FR for over
five years. They are a propaganda organization. None of
their stories has ever been picked up by legitimate
news wires. They have a special bug up their ass about
Hugo Chavez and repeat the lie that the US was not involved
in the attempted coup even though there is a video tape of
a senate committee giving support to the coup plotters weeks
before the event.

[pnorman]

21. I don't give a rat's rectum over whether you're "favorably disposed" to me or not.

This little hissyspit of yours, began when I said: "With all due respect, to me NOTHING is 'self-debunking'", but you felt otherwise Did that seem to undermine your own sense of self-worth? well, BOO fucking HOO! Get over it!

pnorman

[Monk06]

22. You started this flame war pnorman with this remark directed at me, "self-righteous posturing"

It is quite ironic that a poseur would accuse
someone else of posturing.

It's quite revealing that this argument arose
from you taking exception to me dismissing the
IBD editorial position on the Canadian Health
Care system.

IBD is notorious for publishing outright lies
concerning health care in Canada and repeating
those lies when they have been more than adequately
refuted.

What's with your soft spot for IBD?

[pnorman]

23. NOV SCHMOZ KA POP!

n/t

pnormn

[Monk06]

24. I totally grok what yer sayin man. Peace

[anigbrowl]

26. He doesn't have a soft spot for IBD

The point is that someone who's an IDB reader can't be effectively refuted by simply being told 'your preferred newspaper is shit', which is an argument from authority (or lack of same). Demonstrating that IBD is shit (not hard) is a far more effective refutation than simply trumpeting your knowledge of the fact.

[Monk06]

29. You are being obtuse. At least I hope you are. I've stated in several posts

that IBD publishes editorials in the guise of
news reporting on two issues that come readily
to mind 'Socialized' Canadian health care and
the marxist dictator Hugo Chavez.

I didn't say IBD was shit. I said it was not a
legitimate news organization but a right wing
propaganda source which it is.

BTW here's an example of the stories IBD pushes
and the 'news' organizations that reprint them.

http://shariahfinancewatch.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/investors-business-daily-bill-clinton-took-saudi-and-arab-money-for-his-library/

IBD is just a RW Blog Roll factory.

[anigbrowl]

13. No, you are way wrong on a number of points.

First, I do agree that IBD is awful and unreliable. However:

1. It's not a 'blog shop'. IBD is an actual newspaper which has been around since 1984. It mostly caters to people who find the WSJ too left wing (ie total wingnuts) but that's beside the point. It is a real newspaper and some people take it more seriously than they should as a result. You might as well get your basic facts correct.

2. Even though IBD is complete crap, refuting it by saying 'it's complete crap' is just shooting the messenger. Even if the article was accompanied by a picture of Karl Rove wearing a t-shirt saying 'I'm probably lying' the onus is still on a critic to point out the flaws in the article - especially when it's a well-written article like this which offers sources and examples (as opposed to just random opinions). You will never effectively refute something that way, which was what the OP wanted help with.

Now I suggest you man up (or woman up, as appropriate) and apologize to pnorman.

[Monk06]

15. IBD is not a business newspaper. It doesn't matter how long they've been in 'business'

I should have used the term Prop Shop rather than
Blog shop. I am a business news writer so I know
which publications report business news rather than
merely posting RW editorial boiler plate like IBD.

By the way is calling me a girl supposed to be an
insult you sexist POS?

[anigbrowl]

25. The point is it's a newspaper, not that it's any good

If you're a business news writer then you ought to have been aware that the thing is a newspaper (even if that requires using the term very loosely indeed) and that it pitches itself to the business market. At least you acknowledge your mistake.

"By the way is calling me a girl supposed to be an insult you sexist POS?"

No, and I did not call you a girl. I have no idea of your gender and therefore I was trying to be gender neutral. Learn some manners, and don't go calling people sexist pieces of shit because you're sore at getting caught out in a factual matter.

[Monk06]

28. Stop trying to be cute. You told me to man up, which both assumes and implies

that I'm a man. Putting a caveat in braces doesn't
get you off the hook.

IBD is not a legitimate news organization. In my experience
over the last eight years IBD has never been cited by any
business analysts nor have any of there stories been picked
up by AP, Reuters, The London Times, Globe and Mail or the
National Post. The last four in this group are conservative
publications by the way.

You can't just call yourself a legitimate news source. Search
in vain on IBD for reports from correspondents on the ground
with current factual information in their stories.

IBD is all editorial all the time. Its just the news arm of
USAID. It's a propaganda incubator.

[Stevepol]

10. Health care is a very complicated issue and no system will be perfect.

The best that can be done is to create the most humane and cost effective system possible and then be ready to change and adapt as developments occur.

The key fact is that more tests and higher tech do not translate to better care. The best care comes from a clinical setting where patients are seen by a number of doctors of different specialities who confer about the case and who spend time with the patient and who are on salary, not working alone or free-lancing their specialties. A recent book about this was discussed on C-Span about 6 months ago. The best system is in Sweden but that would be hard to replcate in the US. In France there is a good mix between public and private health care and there is guaranteed health care for all I believe.

The author of the book referred to above also was of the opinion that Dennis Kucinich's plan wd be very expensive, maybe too much so. Wish I could recall the name of the book. I cdn't find anything after a quick google search, but it might have been Maggie Mahar. It was a woman, a reporter who comapred the highest tech hospitals (like the one affiliated with UCLA) with smaller, less pricey clinics and found the outcomes were superior in the clinics, among other findings.

[knitter4democracy]

20. I always tell them of the doctor duo Hubby was in residency with.

They came to the US for an internal medicine residency and also because they'd heard our healthcare system was better. They ran back home to Canada, even knowing they might make less money than here. Hubby sometimes talks of joining them.

[TrogL]

27. Don't believe anything Canadian RW's write about health care

Also define "crisis". A friend of mine has "a crisis" because she broke a fingernail - she works in sales.

I'd put it more like Canadian health care is having a bad hair day due to overstress. On its worst day it's far, far superior to the US system.