Strange talk with a RW patient and epiphany therefrom:

[PCIntern]

A couple days ago, a gentleman came to see me for a dental clearance for prosthetic hip surgery. This is required by the orthopedist, for should there be an active, significant dental abscess, the bacteria could take up residence on the new hip and cause a catastrophe. I have treated this man and his family for more than twenty years - he is a retired firefighter and a real physical guy: he has a bone-crushing handshake and looks like he could bench-press 500 pounds or more.

He is also a right-winger of the first order. You all know the type. We get along because he really is a moral man and has a terrific family of honest, hard-working (difficult to use that phrase these days) people. He told me a story.

He has been trying to get approved for his hip surgery for a year and has had roadblocks set in his path every step of the way, from the MRI authorization to the interpretation to the scheduling to the hospital to the doctor. It's been a real symphony of exactly what is wrong with the health care system. If he'd been on Queen for a Day, he'd have won (older folks know this reference).

I listened to him sympathetically and then he said the magic words with a sneer:

"...and the Clintons were supposed to have FIXED health care!"

It was my turn. I gently said, "but gee, I thought everyone
agreed that they STOPPED the Clintons from 'fixing' health care. I thought it was the major defeat which was acknowledged by everyone to be a big problem for the Clintons and actually led to the eventual downfall of all health care reform in the decade and beyond." I was very nice about it and sort of perplexed, as it were, by his statement. He said absolutely nothing...changed the subject.

And then I realized...when you walk down the street and see the faceless ones, the people with the blank stare headed somewhere, you have to realize at times that the powers-that-be give not one whit for them. They know that they're content with their 'fashion' and their 'sports' and their 'music' and their movies and their TV. They are reliably unexcited and really do not care about issues, morality, wars, mis-counted votes, Supreme Court decisions. until and unless it affects them directly - and I don't mean that in an esoteric sense, I'm referring to direct unabridged contact. And then they get it wrong every time because...as the great Mel Brooks stated in his film Spaceballs: Evil will always win out over Good, because Good is dumb.

And so it goes...most of what we do to change people's minds is tantamount to peeing into the wind, but sometimes, you get through. Please let me know when someone manages...I like to hear success stories.

[Duer 157099]

1. I'm not sure if I'm getting your point

If you are saying that even when they are personally and directly affected, they still don't *get it" then I agree, and that's the most depressing part of all of this, because it means there's little to no hope for change.

If you're saying that they *only* get it when they are personally affected, then I disagree, for the most part.

[PCIntern]

2. The former...we're in agreement. n/t

[Duer 157099]

6. Yeah, it's very sad

I mean, our country is literally falling apart and when trying to find any sort of silver lining, I keep thinking that this will wake people up, but deep down I know that's not true, and so it means the suffering will continue and worsen, and that's very sad.

[eleny]

7. I think the silence and blank stare are what happen before the lightbulb begins to flicker

Sure, people like that may opt to vote for Barr. But I do believe that the synapses are beginning to snap, crackle and pop - especially at the gas pump.

[eleny]

3. Not a success story like you related....

But I spoke with one of my dear neighbors today. She told me she was voting for Obama and always liked him. She's originally from KENTUCKY!

Pardon my caps but you know how happy I was to learn this today. A white Kentuckian born and bred and she's an Obama girl. :D

[PCIntern]

5. I didn't regard my story as a success

at all.

glad for your story though

[eleny]

8. I understand now after reading your back & forth with dotcosm

I do consider it somewhat a success since he stopped in his tracks. The truth of what you said was an education. Even if he learned that he was taken for an all day sucker by his Party.

[jody]

4. Interesting anecdote! I’ve had many discussions with blue and gray collar workers and the majority

of them are focused on divisive, polarizing, governmental-destructive personal issues such as evolution, abortion, prayer in schools, pledge of allegiance, euthanasia, gay rights, and medical-marijuana.

I’ve found that only union members put such things behind them and want to discuss such important things as health care, the economy, and Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran.

IMO, as the power of unions has declined, the power of corporations and the corporatists have increased.

Abraham Lincoln said, "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

I keep hoping that voters will exercise their right at the ballot box and vote only for representatives who will lobby for We the People

[YankmeCrankme]

11. I agree, unions were a bulwark against corporations.

Unfortunately, they became complacent, felt entitled and the leadership corrupted for many of them. I have difficulty seeing a resurgence, though. While I can see similarities now in the situations that made unions necessary, the mindset of the people and the degree of comfort is different.

[jody]

12. Do you see any organization that can amass enough blue-gray collar support to replace unions and

successfully oppose corporatists in their move toward controlling our government?

[YankmeCrankme]

14. I hate to say, but I'm very pessimistic

I don't really see any group at this point. We, as a nation, seem to have bought into the notion that you're on your own. What you get or have should be from your own efforts (a fallacy, as everything is interconnected and no one gets anything on their own). The obvious drawback to this is it is a lot easier for a corporation to defeat each individual rather than a group.

Until Americans truly feel the discomfort of their economical predicament and believe they have the right to forceful and violent confrontation to those that oppress them nothing will happen. I don't know what it is about now compared to 40 or 100 years ago, but there doesn't seem to be the support from the non-active majority to the minority of activists who fight for economic equality. I think the threat of losing a job or not having a job has more impact than the loss of our freedoms or of our government to represent us.

[iamahaingttta]

15. "I don't know what it is..."

...about now compared to 40 or 100 years ago..."

Television!

That vast wasteland of mind-numbing blather! It keeps the masses docile, confused and brain-damaged. Watch television at your own risk!

[dixiegrrrrl]

46. Gotta agree with you on that...

Steve Jobs said something to the effect that the difference between tv and puters was that tv is a passive brain wave device
and puters are an interactive brain stimulating device, ( for the most part).
Something like that...
I didn't allow my kids to watch anything except Sesame Street their first 4 years, would have tossed the tv if their Dad had not been so stubborn about keeping it. Rarely was on when the kids were around, tho.
Kids learned to read early, they are now grown, don't even own tv,
now use puters for news and watching the "real" world.
They are much more aware than their tv brain-washed relatives on
( the ex) Dad's side of family.

[Rosemary2205]

17. Starbucks

is my barometer. If starbucks goes belly up then it's bad enough Americans might revolt. When enough of the middle class can't afford latte to the point Starbucks has to close shop, then we are truly screwn. For some reason I don't understand, people will give up a house before they give up latte. So, IMHO, if Starbucks is in big trouble, that would be the right time for someone to come forward and organize a mass revolt.

[tblue37]

26. Many people who really cannot afford it spend

$800 to $5000 a year on their Starbucks habits. I know this because one semester I had my English 101 students do a research project on it. They surveyed the class members and people in their dorms, fraternities, and sororities. They analyzed the frequency of Starbucks visits, and then they did the math.

One girl in my class found out that she and her family (Mom, Dad, 16-year-old sister, and the girl herself) were averaging about $5000/year on their family's Starbucks habit. She freaked out when she realized that she could have practically paid for her college education, without loans, for the amount of money they were blowing on coffee (back then KU tuition was about $1000/semester---it's gone up a lot recently). She went home that weekend and called a family meeting, at which the family all vowed to avoid Starbucks in the future.

I don't know whether they actually succeeded in breakinggn their Starbucks habit over the long term, but I still cherish the moment in class when she did the math and shrieked, "Oh, my God!"

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Consumer spending is 70% of our GDP

And a good portion of that is on non-essential items like Starbucks. If everyone up and stopped all their discretionary spending, the economy would collapse in less than a month.

[John Kerry VonErich]

33. Forceful and violent?

not the way.

[YankmeCrankme]

40. All major advances for equality in this country,

both civil and economic, have been the result of forceful and/or violent confrontations.

[John Kerry VonErich]

51. Then sadly you believe a second civil war is inevitable.

nt

[CANDO]

32. I'm a 19 year Teamster member...

and I can't begin to explain the frustration I've experienced in dealing with right-wing minded fellow Teamsters! I would venture to say that in the Central Pennsylvania region, probably 75% are right leaning or outright conservo-extremists. They buy hook, line, and sinker into what is fed them by the likes of Rush, Sean and Co. God, Guns, and Gays. Being a Republican is being a "real" man. That sort of thing.

[Frustratedlady]

9. I know way too many of those people, in person and online.

Once they get a taste of that Kool-Aid, they are gone. They will follow the Repugs to the end of the earth and believe everything they are told.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm in a strange world where everyone speaks a different language, but then I come on DU and know I'm sane.

Aren't I?

[PCIntern]

10. Kud bee....

that was the beauty of the Internet...the finding of like-minded folk...after 2000 many of us thought we were the only ones who really mourned for the destruction of democracy by the fascists who stole the votes. 'Twasn't true...that we were alone, that is. 'Twas true that they stole the election however,

[Echo In Light]

16. It's strange...you'll hear people parrot RW memes without having the vaguest idea of what it entails

As for most of the people I know/associate with, they generally aren't rightward people, but I've noticed how if you strike up a conversation in a grocery store, or sitting in the dentist office waiting room, etc, public opinion seems to fall uncannily right in line with the prevailing views of the corporate media indoctrination.

[Vinca]

13. I'll try to get through to someone as soon as I get past "Queen For a Day."

That was a staple at Grandma's house and when I visited her - back in the dark ages - I never missed it.:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

18. OK this one is a whopper!

I don't like to share these stories, but this one I will. My kid has been working a summer job with me and we went to lunch at ick fucking taco bell because that is what the kid wanted. We get there park and walk to the door. A large man is standing on the walk and asks do I have any spare change as he is hungry. (The part I do not like sharing as this is not about me) I said go get in line and get whatever you want. He doesn't say a word and gets in line in front of us. Poor dear ordered two of the 89 cent deals, and I reminded him he could have whatever he wanted and wasn't he thirsty, he said yes, a small drink, I said here have a large, blah blah blah. He sits next to us, so I draw him into conversation. That isn't going to be enough food is it? No. Well go order more, have whatever you want get 5 of em. He smiles and kid gives him one of his burritos. Are you registered to vote? Yes. Decided who you are going to vote for? Yes. Well? McCain, I had given him money, which was still on the table, I snatched the money back in laughter and then put it back. I said you know, Obama is going to help the poor, why would you vote for McSame when he will wipe his butt on your face? We have an audience at two tables listening now. The man smiles and says he thought McCain would keep us safe. I said have the Republicans kept you safe? He said no, he was now on the street due to job loss. I asked re his address. He uses his Mom's address for his voter registration and stays there off and on while he looks for work. He appeared to honored that his opinion mattered to someone, that someone would be asking what he thought about something, anything. He lifted his head when he talked to me and looked me in the eye. He gets this look in his eye like a glimmer of hope as I again remind him that Obama will help the poor if elected and McSame will give another tax cut to the richies. He says you know, I think you may be right. Peace out brother, good luck. He had a glow about him when we left. There was more, as the other tables joined into the conversation before I left, and a lively conversation in support of Obama had errupted. Woot! A daily quest! McSame's home state, and they are even the homeless in the fucking taco bell. There were a couple of dynamics that leaves me wondering, but those I will ponder without sharing here, but an interesting lunch.

[PCIntern]

21. Well done...great story!

The one thing that you have to 'hand' the Rethugs is that they have actually convinced people to vote against their own, and the country's, interests. If the Dems had had this kind of message-teaching, we'd be living in a utopia. Now I'M JUST KIDDING FOLKS, DON'T GET STARTED WITH ME...but boy, sometimes I wish that we had the PR that the Rethugs have had.

[lonestarnot]

23. Every day! one at a time! Make your own PR!

[lostnfound]

39. Their PR pays for itself. It's a corporate investment, a criminal investment.

They make big contributions and personally get paid off with contracts and goodies 100-fold.

Left wing PR? Not so much.

[dana_b]

30. wonderful story!!

good for you too. It's great to hear that some people still care about other people's plight.

[lonestarnot]

31. Listen to Obama!

:applause:

[LibDemAlways]

19. So the Clintons, who made a stab at correcting

the health care system, are to blame for the mess that it's in, while chimp, who has done nothing about it for 8 years, gets a pass?

Your comeback was very gentle compared to what that man actually deserved to hear. He and people like him, who routinely vote against their own self-interest because they have no idea what their own self-interest is to begin with, are to a very significant degree responsible for how screwed up this country has become.

[PCIntern]

24. Funny...

people who've followed my 'patient conversation' posts over the months have taken me to task for being too harsh. I've toned it down considerably, since the people/patients are not there to get into any arguments...but now I guess I'm too namby pamby! On the serious side, I sincerely don't want to get into fights or make the dental office a worse place than it already is for folks, but I have to be gentle with people who can crush me like a beer can.

:hi:

[LibDemAlways]

25. Oh, no. I realize that you must maintain a professional

relationship with your patients and didn't mean to imply that you should have been any harsher. It's wonderful that you say anything at all as you do risk alienating people.

Just throwing in my 2 cents that that particular man is an idiot!

[PCIntern]

36. I knew that and I didn't mean to imply

that you didn't...I was just making an observation about things in general -sigh-...

:hi:

[tblue37]

27. At least there are no gay married people battering at his house,

trying to break in and destroy his marriage, like those zombies in I am Legend who were trying to get at Will Smith and turn him into one of them. That's what a lot of voters like him consdier to be their real interest.

[bluedawg12]

43. Those clever "values " voters - we have a lot to thank them for.

Good grief California will allow gay marriages - forget the flooding, the war, health care--nothing get's the repugs to open their wallets like fear of another's human rights. :sarcasm:

[Raksha]

35. I agree. In response to his remark about Clinton,

I would have asked him why haven't the Republicans fixed health care?

I would have pointed out that for six years they had control of the entire government--the presidency, both houses of Congress and the so-called "justice" system. And in that time the health care situation has only gotten worse for the average person.

In other words, I would have forced to the position that the Republicans don't even BELIEVE in fixing health care. They have exactly the health care system they want right now--obscenely overpriced and covering the fewest number of people possible, to the point where people actually die because they have no coverage or inadequate coverage.

Whether the guy admitted it in so many words or not, he would have HAD to confront the fact that "fixing health care" in the sense that he means it isn't even on the Repuke radar screen.

[Brigid]

48. 18,000 a year die because of lack of health coverage.

Talk about obscene. :grr:

[ensho]

20. I keep saying nothing will happen unless beer become too expensive

or scarce and if sports vanished from TV.

[lonestarnot]

22. Oh and I forgot t mention, the first thing out of his mouth was the name reference.

I asked him if he named himself. That was his first smile.

[madeline_con]

29. In the same vein, many couldn't be bothered to vote. n/t

[bluedawg12]

34. Adversity just forces people to fall back on their beliefs.

Actually, if he is Medicare, then he gets a THA on demand.

A MRI on demand and a hip replacement on demand.

The interpreation of a MRI seems little do with health care availability.

If he is commerical insurance, then, he should have docs and hospital OR panting for his business, they are top payers.

What I get from your story is--most likely-- an insured guy ( retired FD)either commerical or Medicare, who is conflating his health care problems, possibly erroneously and still blaming the Democrats for his damned problems.

Unless you are talking about Canada this just doesn't ring true:

"He has been trying to get approved for his hip surgery for a year and has had roadblocks set in his path every step of the way, from the MRI authorization to the interpretation to the scheduling to the hospital to the doctor."

The truth is that it takes about 8 weeks to get an insured and/or Medicare patient on the OR schedule- if they meet the clinical criteria for a THA.

And about 4 weeks of that are taken up with autologous blood donation pre-op. 2 units of PRBC's, 1 unit Q 21 weeks X2.

The other truth is that the inusrance industry stopped the health care program the the Clinton admin. proposed.

[PCIntern]

37. what happens here in Philly at least,

is that all kinds of pre-conditions rear their ugly heads and a bureaucratic debate begins aout all kinds of variables which seem to be givens under normal circumstances but slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwing down the procedure seems to be the way of the world these days.

I hear this a lot!

[bluedawg12]

42. Intersting about Philly- is that commercial insurance?

Here is something interesting:

http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/66349

Fifty percent of Canadian hospital administrators reported that an average wait for a 65-year-old man needing hip replacement was more than six months. Not one American hospital administrator reported waiting periods that long. 86 percent of American hospital administrators reported that the average wait was shorter than three weeks, while on 3 percent of Canadian hospital administrators reported that their patients had this short of a wait.

http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/content/full/89/8/1874

Zhan et al.1 screened more than eight million hospital discharge records in 2003 and identified approximately 200,000 total hip arthroplasties, 100,000 partial hip arthroplasties, and 36,000 revision total hip arthroplasties

[PCIntern]

50. This is a common story here...

it's not unusual for certain tests to be denied for what appear to be arbitrary reasons which inevitably are argued over months or years. sometimes, intercessors are required...recall the CIGNA flap when they denied that kid 's surgery and then granted it when she was on her deathbed and they probably knew she wouldn't make it thru the night to the surgery.

If they say that the procedure won't help, or that the patient is too infirm or old, then they stymie the process just enough to throw everyone off-kilter.

[27inCali]

38. Regular joe conservatives aren't evil

just misguided.

the one compliment they deserve is that once you give them a chance to check out a real, stong, authoritative leader, they will follow that leader even if they disagree with some things, mostly because they are comforted by his confidence. That's why Barack is doing so well with these people. He believes in himself, he fights back against the unfair bullshit. His tone of confidence, his swagger, the sternness in his voice when he decries the stupidities of current policy. Conservatives are total suckers for the strong type.
a

[windoe]

41. I have one Republican in the family

and he always blames libruls for all the ills of society, there should be more laws, more regulations--it's due to 'these people' or 'those people'. He identifies with the elite point of view (ironic) that too many services are taxing the country, illegal aliens, ect. He watches too much MSM, to be sure, so he is subject to their tactics of deflecting the working class anger at fellow citizens, not the ones doing the white collar crimes.

[bluedawg12]

45. The RW has over 500 radio stations and Faux news to indoc

these folks with the wedge issues. they have been at this for over 30 years and it has proved to be effective.

That's why a fresh look and some change is in order - get them to understand things in a new way.

[Brewman_Jax]

44. I've run into a few of those

and they whine when they can't get what they need. I tell them, "Why are you crying about it? That's what you voted for."

[Cleita]

47. My late husband's clinical nurse and her husband, a fireman, are

staunch Republicans and against all kinds of welfare and handouts. Yet, both her and her husband wouldn't have their jobs if things were to become completely Republican. The renal clinic she works from gets 90% of it's income from Medicare because most private health insurances don't cover end stage renal disease. If the Republicans had there way all fire departments would be privatized. Maybe he could get a job with them but I'm certain the job security and benefits he gets would be non-existent. I pointed that out to her one day and got crickets.

[truedelphi]

49. Looking at internet blogs wherein people type in their feelings abt

Global warming, I am amazed at the number of times I see people reference the high price of energy as being the fault of the Democrats, the inane energy policy is blamed on the Democrats, the waning of the ozone hole is put on the Democrats, etc.

Just who do they think was president since 2000??

And just who changed the course of solar energy, undoing every single thing that had occurred under the Carter Presiddency??

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

52. Typical "damned if you do, damned if you don't"......

....flip flopping from the righties.