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Is anyone else catching the error in John Dean's thinking abt impeachment?

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:24 PM
Original message
Is anyone else catching the error in John Dean's thinking abt impeachment?
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 04:08 PM by truedelphi
He is on Randi Rhoades and is saying that the needed structures by which the House could bring about the impeachment of George Bush are quite lacking.

I agree with him there - I agree there should be a special committee In the House that holds special powers existing for the purpose of impeachment. Otherwise you have to rely on the President to appoint a Special Prosecutor.

But he goes on to say that if Kucinich's move for impeachment takes effect, it will have no purpose, as those subpoenaed can simply avoid coming ina nd testifying.

Now Keith Olbermann has already had someone on his show say that no, the Congress has the authority to send the Sargent at Arms to the home of whomever is subpoenaed and who refuses to come in and testify -- and then the Sergeant at Arms gives them the chance to say they will co0me in, or else they can be put under arrest. This guest of Keith's also mentioned there is a prison inside the basement of the Capital Building where the person or persons can be held. And that if any who have refused Congressional subpoenas so far (Dick Cheney among them) were arrested right now, that they could be held in that basement prison - at least until the next election.

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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. And you think the former Counsel to the President doesn't know that?
If John Dean opines about a legal/political/governmental issue, I listen. Guests on KO take second place.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It wasn't "just" a guest on KO. I believe it was
Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University Law School. If he doesn't know what he's talking about, nobody does.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Shraby, I am not sure that it was Jonathan Turley. I like and respect Turley, but I don't
Remember it being him. (Though maybe it was.)

I'm wondering if there have been any other Constitutionally concerned scholar types on the KO show in the last month or so.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not only that Once they say, Criminal Investigation. Executive privilege goes out the window.
Either Bush turns over all requested documents or they raid the White House and seize them. Just like with they did with Jefferson's office.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The illegal seizure?
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Surely you remember the famous raid on Nixon's White House
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 03:49 PM by Richardo
Haldeman swinging that broom, Ehrlichman moving the dresser in front of the door. They kept the tapes out of Sirica's hands, though. YOU remember.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I remember Bella Abzug putting Liddy in a headlock
while Shirley Chisholm broke a lamp over his head. That was good.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Martha Mitchell running around like Gladys Kravitz...
What a stitch.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. OMG this thread! ROFLMAO
:rofl:
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. You and Monkey Funk are killing me, Richie!
:rofl: :thumbsup:
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I thought the raid and seizures where ruled legal.
:shrug:
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. A circuit judge upheld it
overturned by an appellate panel.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, yes, Congress can technically have them arrested, but they won't
Harriet Meyers and Joshua Bolton were found in contempt of Congress on Feb. 14. Did Pelosi send the sergeant at arms after them? Of course not.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Cheney has been asked to testify, or even required to testify,
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 05:21 PM by truedelphi
And he has cited "executive privilege" in order to get out of it.

And critics of his doing so had many reasons why the "executive privilege" clause doesn't apply.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. I like and respect John Dean, but
I've heard an awful lot of well informed opinions on impeachment that are very much at odds with what you're saying here. Could you have misinterpreted him? To say that there is no point in impeachment because people can refuse a Congressional subpoena is tantamount to saying that we may as well take the impeachment clause out of our Constitution because it is unenforceable. That simply cannot be true. I have two very strong qualms with that statement, if that is indeed what Dean meant:

1) Mountains of evidence have already been accumulated. There is no single person or group of persons whose testimony at this point is so crucial that impeachment and removal from office won't succeed without them.

2) Nobody has the legal right to refuse a Congressional subpoena, not even the president. That is what the balance of powers is all about. I don't know for certain what the precise mechanism of enforcement is, but I know that there is a way to enforce Congressional subpoenas as well as I know that I can't get away with deciding not to pay my income taxes just because I don't want to do it. Refusing a Congressional subpoena is a lot more serious than refusing to pay taxes.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. All I know is Randi had him on her show today
And he spoke in very simple sentences and very simply explained that because those who would be subpoenaed would not comply, and there was no way to enforce the subpoenas, then the entire impeachment strategy would be an exercise in futility.

You disagree, and I disagree. If KO takes this up later today or tomorrow, he is sure to have on hand someone with expert Constitutional knowledge. And they can blow the holes in Dean's argument. His argument should not stand.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hopefully all of that is true . . . but also "Power of Purse" in defunding Justice Dept
if they don't authorize and move the subpoenas --- ??!!!

I think John Dean also pointed out that we no longer have a Special Prosecutor law because
of Clinton's impeachment . . . We have to reestablish the law, I think?


Actually, I think GOP had used laws in such threatening fashions that Dems were happy to see it go,
but mainly GOP wanted Special Prosecutor laws gone!!!

Because GOP used Constitution to impeach Clinton in ourtrageous fashion doesn't mean we should get
rid of that option either --- !!!



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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. they'll never go over the head of the Attorney General to do that
Mukasey won't cooperate, so nothing will get done. The House is too unsure of their police powers to do anything without DOJustice.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. Bush has an ace up his sleeve:
Nancy Pelosi.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Nancy and possibly even Steny could be sidelined.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'll fill in the blank for you...They can't bring 'em in _______________________
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 05:31 PM by rucky
without an armed confrontation.


Get these goons the fuck out of the White House, then convict them for the thieves and war criminals they are.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Judiciary Committee is structure enough
We don't need no stinkin' special committees
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. And badges. We don't need no stinkin' badges!!
:toast:
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. Who's the Sargent at Arms gonna' bring to arrest them?
:rofl:

Seriously?

I mean, the Sargent at Arms is kinda' like that old fart with a badge sitting at the back of any courtroom and, quite honestly, has barely enough power to arrange delivery of subpoenas. I mean,...C'MON!!!!
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. HAS the legal power. See my other post below...

http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/sergeant_at_arms.htm


The moral courage of Congress to use it is another matter...
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I am sure that the Sargeant at Arms has the authority to bring police along with him
But the real force that is missing is, as you say, "the moral courage" of Congress.

For me, I find it quite difficult to use "courage" and "Congress" in the same sentence.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I completely agree. Whatever happened to that soaring Dem promise
in exchange for votes in 2006 "to Drain The Swamp"?
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. Dean says Congress has the power to prosecute and force them to comply.
He wrote about this in the Harriet Miers case last summer:

Harriet Miers's Contempt of Congress: Are Conservatives About To Neuter Congress, While Claiming Full Legal Justification for this Separation-of-Powers Violation?
By JOHN W. DEAN
Friday, Jul. 13, 2007





(read long introduction, background and legalistic discussion of Harriet Miers' Contempt of Congress....)

Congress Needs To Protect Its Powers: Only One Way It Can Do So


(...)
Marty Lederman has prepared a nice overview analysis of what happens when officials defy a congressional subpoena.



Finally, if Miers is found in contempt, the House itself can take action against her at the bar of the House. (The Senate can similarly hold such proceedings.) Congress has the power to prosecute contumacious witnesses to require them to comply, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly reaffirmed this power
. For example, in 1987, in Young v. U.S., Justice Antonin Scalia recognized "the narrow principle of necessity" or "self-defense" of the Congress in protecting its institutional prerogatives. Scalia said "the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Branches must each possess those powers necessary to protect the functioning of its own processes, although those implicit powers may take a form that appears to be nonlegislative, nonexecutive, or nonjudicial, respectively."

When all is said and done the only way Congress can protect its prerogatives is to undertake its own contempt proceedings. The parliamentary precedents of the House provide such procedures, by which Congress can effectively protect itself. There is no shortage of past instances where the Congress has held such trials. Readers may want to consult, for example, Hinds' Precedents and Canon's Precedents. Unfortunately, however, this machinery has become a bit rusty, for these procedures have not been used since 1934.

Congress Must Avail Itself of Traditional Procedures to Compel Testimony and/or Punish Contempt
Given the clear attitude of conservative presidents, who are doing all within their power to make Congress irrelevant, Congress should turn to these underemployed precedents and put them back to work. The House and Senate Judiciary Committees should take the lead in reviving these procedures, and the Democrats' leadership should announce that they are embracing them.

If they do not, Fred Fielding has it right: Officials are absolutely immune from compelled Congressional testimony. Bush can simply tell Congress to stop sending subpoenas to his appointees. However, if Congress does engage in a little self-help at this crucial juncture, it can be sure that not only Harriet Miers, but also George Bush, will be forced to pay attention to congressional subpoenas - for the bottom line is that Congress will not need the cooperation of the other branches to enable it to conduct proper oversight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John W. Dean, a FindLaw columnist, is a former counsel to the president.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070713.html




Here is where Marty Lederman talks about the power of Congress to arrest and detain.....




What Would Happen if the Administration Continues to Defy the Subpoenas?


Friday, July 06, 2007

Marty Lederman

"(....)




How would such self-help work? Well, believe it or not, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the Senate or House would personally arrest the officials and detain them in the Capitol jail or guardhouse (assuming such a facility still exists). (One of my students last semester noticed this gem on the website of the current Senate Sergeant-at-Arms, Terrance Gainer: "The Sergeant at Arms is authorized to arrest and detain any person violating Senate rules, including the President of the United States." We wondered in class: What could possibly have motivated Mr. Gainer or his staff to post that provocation?) The person would then be tried by the legislative house and, if found guilty (of civil contempt), could be detained until compliance with the subpoena or until the session of Congress ends, Anderson, 19 U.S. at 231, whichever comes first.

Congress has not invoked this authority since 1935 and, as far as I know, has never used it against a current or former government official. (The closest case was probably the contempt at issue in McGrain v. Daugherty, 273 U.S. 135 (1927), which was imposed against Mally Daugherty, a bank president and the brother of resigned and disgraced Attorney General Harry Daugherty, who Congress was investigating in connection with the Teapot Dome scandal.)

Thus, this option is unlikely . . . but not inconceivable, if Congress is willing to break relatively new ground, and to conduct a contempt trial.

Third, and most likely, Congress could file a civil action in federal court seeking declaratory relief, or an injunction requiring enforcement of its subpoena. Although I'm not aware of any statute that expressly grants the courts jurisdiction over such suits, both Congress and the Executive branch have filed suits of this sort in the past, asserting federal question jurisdiction under 28 U.S.C. 1331. The courts in such cases have not expressly reach edthe question of whether section 1331 jurisdiction is apposite. See Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities v. Nixon, 366 F. Supp. 51 (D.D.C. 1973) (holding that the $10,000 jurisdictional amount in controversy requirement then in the statute (it's since been eliminated) was not satisfied); United States v. House of Representatives, 556 F. Supp. 150 (D.D.C. 1983) (in which DOJ took the position that the controversy arose under the Constitution and laws of the United States, but the court did not reach the merits -- it dismissed the suit "until all possibilities for settlement have been exhausted"; and DOJ did not appeal)".


more: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-would-happen-if-administration.html



K&R
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'll pull this sentence out for emphasis:
Dean: "If they do not, Fred Fielding has it right: Officials are absolutely immune from compelled Congressional testimony."

Ye, Congress shall enforceth the ancient precepts, or this nation shall go under.

In examining the above, especially that linked into the documents available bu clicking at Hinds Principles, the cases can be quite interesting.

After the Sargeant At Arms comes for you, and you are duly imprisoned, are you a prisoner who deserves counsel, or a witness who deserves none? In the past, Congress was such a moral body that they would spend DAYS attempting to answer such questions.
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. Its called inherent comtempt
But it is a move that I doubt they would use in the middle of an election season.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
31. Okay in this interview, Jonathan Turley is agreeing with John Dean
Edited on Wed Jun-11-08 02:51 AM by truedelphi
The agreement, by the Democrats getting rid of a part of the protocol for impeachment after it was used against Bill Clinton, comes at the end of this video over at Crooks and Liars

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/10/countdown-the-impeachment-of-george-w-bush

He still doesn't agree that the Congress should have been so complicit and so "Do Nothing" --
in fact he is downright angry at Congress. But he does admit that there is a serious lack of support and ability for the impeachemnt process to move forward, on account of the recent changes made to the impeachment system.
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