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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:28 AM
Original message
Could McCain really win????
Absolutely NOT. We as working class citizens are hurting too much right now and he offers NO solutions. Let's look at some of them, health care. He wants to do away with employer based care and give people a $5,000.00 tax credit to buy private insurance. One problem, if you have a pre-existing condition you can't get insured or the price is sky high and the coverage is skimpy. Estimates show where now their are over 40 million uninsured Americans, under McCain's plan that could skyrocket to 140 million. He wants to privatize Social Security. That went over sooooo well with Bush. Under the present circumstances the last people I want fiddling with my retirement savings is Wall Street. Let's not forget his problems with hating Preachers or his wife's flat refusal to release her tax records. We could also add in his age and health but why? Unless Obama has an affair with two white lesbians at the same time I think he will have little problems.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Diebold. n/t
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Here's another word. RIOT!
Edited on Fri May-23-08 02:04 PM by Wizard777
I really don't think America can tollerate another stolen election. A Mc Cain win would be blatant election theft. The Republicans aren't even really supporting him.
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. Here's a couple more: Martial law
Made possible by the customary sleazy back-door stealth pieces of paper the Bushies have used in place of the Constitution. Like this one:

National Security Presidential Directive 51 and Homeland Security Presidential Directive-20

Everybody's heard of the continuity of government scam. Signed May 9 last year, here's the framework and excuses for implementing martial law (which is what declaring a national state of emergency means to these swine). Note that Bush is to be the sole guarantor of the continuance of Constitutional law under these conditions, and that he’s the only one who gets to define what constitutes grounds for declaring a state of emergency.

A few of the uglier provisions:

(b) "'Catastrophic Emergency' means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions..“ It doesn't mention a Cheney hangnail or one of Pickle's periodic bouts with the vapors, but I'm sure those were just oversights.

(18) "The Secretary of Defense, in coordination with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall provide secure, integrated, Continuity of Government communications to the President, the Vice President, and, at a minimum, Category I executive departments and agencies.” Now that's the kind of thing that helps me sleep soundly at night.

(6) "The President shall lead the activities of the Federal Government for ensuring constitutional government." This is I guess in recognition of Bush's well-documented veneration for Constitutional law.


Or this one:

Executive Order: Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq

According to that EO, signed by The Commander Guy July 17 last year, "total asset forfeiture" is what can happen to you if you express disagreement with the Bushies' Iraq "policy" or, as it's called in this EO, "...undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people."

So that's what they're up to: economic reconstruction, political reform and humanitarian assistance. And it just looks like blood and carnage and chaos to me. Shows what I know.

But hilarious or not, there can be consequences if they decide to bring the hammer down. This gem allows the feds to steal all your stuff, then do the same thing to anyone who gives you a nickel afterwards. And they don't have to give you any prior notice because you might just arrange a wire transfer to one of your off-shore numbered accounts.

There's an EO just like this one for people who don't believe it was appropriate for Israel to bomb Syria last year. And there could easily be a third for people who refuse to accept a demented cadaver as their next president.


But there's another reason there will be no real resistance. Fortunately for the Bushies, Americans have finally completed their obedience school training and will do absolutely nothing to prevent it when the Bushies steal this election too -- except wave a few signs around and get a few of their heads smashed in.

If they can't make the presidential vote look close enough to steal it again -- and they'll do amazingly creative things toward that end and will have the full support of mass media every step of the way -- they'll just do the old continuity of government switcheroo and, voila, the fascist dictatorship becomes official.

Bush is installed as Intergalactic Czar for Life, hands out pardons for everybody, the American people pop another Snores Lite and inhale a super-size bag of bald-tire-and-pig-iron-flavored Doritos, and the Bushies head for Crawford because it's always a good time to pick tics out of dogs' ears and let Cheney shoot a few more defenseless rich republicans. This time, they even let McPain go along, although nobody talks to him the whole way there.


I tell ya, ziss shit jis doan git no bitter.

Meanwhile, an epidemic of binge drinking, unprecedented drug abuse and mass suicides breaks out everywhere else in the world with Intertubes access.


wp
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Oooookay. I see your Martial law and raise you a Civil War.
Democrats vs. Republicans a fight to bitter end of one of the two parties. The war will last about 10 second. That's exactly how long it will take all the Republican to get a deferment or captured.

:rofl:
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. You mean the Dockers brigade will "have other priorites?"...
There does seem to be a correlation between BushBots and chickenshits. Particularly the 9/11 true believers, the ones who've been paralyzed with fear of murderous Islamofascist fanatics ever since.

Tens of millions of swaggering, rugged individualist wannabes out there in red state America living closeted, fear-saturated lives of doom and desperation. Despite their carefully crafted studly images, they spend much of their time alone pooping their pants over the ambient dread that the dark forces of unspeakable evil are in place and just waiting for the order to murder them in their beds – horribly, painfully and brutally -- and then make it look like suicide so their families can't collect on the double indemnity murder clause from the life insurance policy.

Because most of these nouveau-cowards have no common sense and aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer either, they actually trust the Bush administration to protect them from these nightmares. So that's the Bushies' main constituency -- along with billionaires and religious loons.

Just the types you'd want to go to war with, eh?


wp

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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. Lets just say between Bush Sr. and Mc Cain.
A Republican airforce couldn't keep a kite in the air. Then the snobs have to figure out who they are going to get to cater the war. Probably KBR. I get your point It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. Tolerate is kinda funny word. America has friggin tolerated two stolen
Edited on Fri May-23-08 05:57 PM by rhett o rick
Presidential without any outrage. America has tolerated a preemptive invasion of a country that wasn't a threat. America has tolerated the lose of habeas corpus. America has tolerated the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, the Military Commissions Act, domestic spying, the use of the DOJ for political purposes.

Wake up there are a lot of gullible people out there. They will tolerate a whole lot more.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. !
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. 88 and 2004 "Absolutely NOT" (GOP win) was followed by GOP win - w/ no Dem party split
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Never underestimate
the stupidity of the American people.

I don't know if 2004 was stolen or not but it shouldn't have even been close.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. My sig.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. I dunno, he could.. I have one nagging thought
Voting Machines:argh:
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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. With things like his Global Warming stance he might be able to con enough "independents" into voting
for him. But that all depends on them not actually digging through the crust of his supposed "independence" and finding all he has to offer are the same old, tired Republican solutions for not actually getting anything done.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. A similar mantra was intoned in 2000 and 2004, and look what happened.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 11:35 AM by no_hypocrisy
Nothing is impossible or improbable.

Unless you are going to assign a democrat and a republican to each voting machine in the country for the duration of Election Day, or you will have paper ballots, anyone can be elected president.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. Of Course!
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Saboburns Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. er,um
2 terms of George W Bush.

Friend, anything is possible.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. Hell yes McStain could win.
Scenario One: Hillary really does decide to take her fight to the convetion. That's practically a lead-pipe cinch for McStain to steal it.

Scenario Two: the Gooper base stops feeling all hurt and betrayed and decides to get behind McStain, and the usual batch of guns/god/gays makes it close. All it would take would be a few mis-steps, which anyone could make, on Obama's side to give it to McStain.

On the other hand, if Obama has (as you'd written) "an affair with two white lesbians at the same time", he'll probably pick up more support among a whole bunch of demographics.
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Tangerine LaBamba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. He sure can,
and, I have this nagging feeling, he just might.

Never underestimate the power of racism in this country. Commentators can talk all they want about "working class voters," or "voters making under $50,000 a year," or "voters who never went beyond high school," but no one dares to call the situation what it really is - the white people who are racist and would rather vote for a senile old pol than a man who is half-black. I'm from Pennsylvania, and I know exactly why Obama didn't win there. He'll never win there.

We are still a nation of racists, much as we deplore it.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. Absolutely yes. When even DU is filled with those who will not vote for any Democratic
candidate not of their own choosing or vote for McCain, there is a strong possibly that McCain could win. The corporate media will give him time and easy passes. His 'my friends' bull will be gobbled up by some less-educated voters. His 'war hero' status will win over those that worship our military might.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. If Democrats Let Him Win...
The "metrics" are working against Gramps. He's a lame candidate who has a more flip-flops than a shoe store along South Beach. He's also representing a party in total collapse lead by the most unpopular president in history. His party and its "ideology" have been exposed as corrupt and inept. But that doesn't mean November will be a "walk"...not with a corporate media that profits from making our political system into a horse race and making the trivial "important" while issues of substance are too complicated for soundbites and discussion.

The GOOP's best hopes is to turn this into a high school prom election...based on personality rather than substance. The overt personality is the Gramps as "maverick" or fun guy cause he showed up on SNL or tough war hero or whatever cartoon the GOOP tries to astroturf about him. The corporate media will never question these storylines as they fit into their scripting as well...and that Democrats will always be portrayed as weak or fractured or extreme. Remember, we still deal with a corporate media that believes the "center" is somewhere around Arlen Specter or Ed Rollins or Monica Crowley. The pendulum has swung, but the corporate media won't come around to it until after it loses its own inside power...then has to adjust.

If Democrats fall into GOOP framing...as has happened in past elections, they will lose. If they don't take the message your talking about and bringing it to more and more people on the grassroots level and building stronger county and state parties that will field the next generation of Congresscritters, Senators and beyond. This election is one step in several in turning this country around...and if those steps are met, many of today's problems can be addressed.

Apathy is our biggest enemy...people who think their vote doesn't matter or got turned off by the endless campaign or just haven't been reached. The good news so far is that Democrats on the local level have been reaching out and many areas that were long neglected are showing strength for Democratic candidates and issues. This will be a far different election than any since 1980...some may say since 1932...the dynamics point toward a large Democratic win. We lose if we play trying to win the '04 election...playing to weakness. We have the strength...the goal is to energize it further...organize and to get out the vote big time in November.
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Golden Raisin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Oh yes he could.
Republicans/Neocons play vicious hard ball and gleefully take the low road. Republicans/Neocons steal elections (see BushCo). Should the election be close, the Supreme Court is in the back pocket of the Republicans (again see BushCo). Too many citizens are more interested in 'American Idol' than the future of their country. Racism is still very prevalent all across the USA: North, South, East and West. The swift-boating of whomever the Democratic candidate is will be staggering, vicious and well-funded. And last but not least, McCain, I'm sure, wears a flag pin on his lapel. Plenty of voters actually equate this with patriotism or lack thereof.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. If Bush can win, anyone can. nt
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. If the Right feels dissed enough by the Left, they decide to
rally (especially the RR) around McCain and put up a real fight.

If we continue to put our finger in eye of female voters, put down
blue collar workers,many we are counting on will stay home or vote
McCain.

The number of Democrats continuing to turn Independent is alarming.
Wake up folks, If they were for Obama they would stay Democrat.

Yes, there are conditions under which McCain can win.
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. What ARE John's qualifications and work experience, anyway?
Whilst assembling my anti-McLame dossier, I was thinking...
He finishes very near the bottom of his Naval Academy class; he allegedly gets into flight school ahead of more-qualified applicants (sound familiar?) because his daddy and granddaddy were admirals. The Academies generally grant technical degrees...engineering, etc., right? So could he operate a slide rule? (this was pre-laptop, remember) Just what DID he do when he was done banging up aircraft? There are some tales out there that his instructors thought he was not a good pilot. I don't mean post-VN.
Did he ever draw a paycheck from other than the US Gummint? Did he and first wife live on his disability pay? Did he sell beer for his in-laws? Jes' tryin' to fill in his CV, y'know. I really can't bear to read a self-congratulatory autobiography.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. of course because Jesus freaks are incapable of independent thought
They don't care how poor they are or how if their own children die in Iraq or how sick they are from having no health care.They will always vote Republican because their church tells them to. Because they are told Obama is a Muslim and therefore he's evil and not a real American.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Frankly, I'm worried that he will. NOT because people want him
Edited on Fri May-23-08 12:23 PM by ailsagirl
but because I can't see the repugs handing over the
reins of power to the Dems. They hold all the cards
and if there has to be a little "adjusting" of the
votes, then so be it.

There is NOTHING they wouldn't do. The last 7 1/2
years have proved that again and again.

:scared:
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. cheating is inevitable
there is no doubt the Repugs are going to lose big on house and senate seats. We already hold a very slight majority there so the assured victories will mean we can tell traitors like Lieberman to go away and have all the votes needed. So they will be anything necessary to McCain in to try since veto power will be the only power they have left
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Exactly. It makes me very, very uneasy...
Either McCain will win or else there will be another terror attack,
(before election day or inauguration day-- assuming a Dem wins),
turning our country into a state of bedlam and major upheaval. I
can't help thinking the repugs have something major up their
sleeve...
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. It's about spin and perception not facts
Maybe most people have a higher opinion of the American voter than I do, but I think McCain could easily win. It all depends on what "theme" develops during the campaign. If the focus is on flag pins and patriotism, McCain will probably win. On the other hand if the economy continues to go into the shitter, I think people will start looking at real issues.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. did * get in twice, I wouldn't doubt it,
but put a nail in coffin if he does, more wars and more death.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Wait a minute
Edited on Fri May-23-08 01:48 PM by Timmy5835
For ALL of you who think McCain could win not ONE of you listed a winning issue for him. As our hero Bill Clinton once said "It the economy, stupid". People have always voted their pocketbooks and McCain has NO pocketbook issues. As for "Well Bush won, twice", He also ran against two of the worst Democratic campaigns in history. Bottomline, if people are hurting in their pocketbooks history shows they don't vote GOP.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. the winning issues would be
1. protecting americans from the boogie man, Iraq and Iran
2. how obama is not experienced, naive and other crap that McInsane is peddling.

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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. They own the media and the voting machines and they'll have more money than God.
So yeah, it could happen.

Let's put it this way, as bad as things are in this country, McCain and the Democrats are polling nationally at a dead heat, given the margin of error.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yes, he definitely could win
The race is ours to screw up.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Here again.....
Not ONE of you have listed a winning issue for McCain. And as for McCain and Obama in a dead heat, that's an old poll the latest show Obama 8 points ahead of McCain.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. A few issues that matter to some people
Edited on Fri May-23-08 02:13 PM by slackmaster
He's older than either of the Democratic candidates.

He is a war veteran. Neither of our leading contenders have any military experience.

He is not in favor of gun bans. Both of our candidates are.

Those are not important enough to me to make me vote Republican this November, but they do matter to a lot of people.

And as for McCain and Obama in a dead heat, that's an old poll the latest show Obama 8 points ahead of McCain.

Obama has gotten a lot more attention in the media lately. Poll numbers go up and down. Many people on DU put a lot of faith in them, but there is only one poll that really matters: The election. If McCain wins it would not be the first time in my memory that the actual vote went significantly more conservative than pre-election polls.
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. As for the military experience canard
Remember, FDR had no military experience. Who won WW2 again?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. We weren't involved in a shooting war in 1932 when FDR was elected
Edited on Fri May-23-08 02:21 PM by slackmaster
:hi:

We were in a deep financial crisis. Much worse than our situation today.

I don't want to get into a "Yeah, but" game with you. You asked for opinions. I gave you mine.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. Going to go optimistic
Once McLame is lined up right next to Obama, he's going to look like the relative incompetent he is.

His speaking ability will not measure up. His charisma is non-existent. True the voters are stupid, but they are also shallow. Fortunately, and though it has nothing to do with the issues, Obama is so much more exciting and interesting and charming and smart, that McLame will be left in the dirt.

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. Where are you getting that idea?
Obama is not the orator without the teleprompter that he is with it. (The last debate, Arabic in Afghanistan, etc.)

McCain is better in a town hall setting than he is giving a speech.

Don't underestimate McCain. The republicans picked the one candidate that could actually defeat a democrat this year.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Just look at the two of them
Which one looks better? Americans are a shallow bunch. Obama is a rock star. McLame is an old man. And he's had his share of gaffes. Don't be so confident. :rofl:

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. Only with a very big steal --- but we've seen that before, haven't we -- -??? !!!!
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Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I am very sorry to say this but..........
I don't think those two elections were stolen rather Gore and Kerry ran VERY bad campaigns.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. How did they run bad campaigns?
:shrug:


Have you read up on any of the voting irregularities in MI and FL?

How do you feel about the Supreme Court giving the election to Idiot George?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Scalia decided that Gore ran a bad campaign and he simply put George in the Oval Office --- !!!
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
63. Gore did not even win his home state.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 08:23 PM by wmbrew0206
I think it is fair to say that if you don't win your home state, you probably did not run a good campaign.

If Gore had won Tennessee, Florida would have been meaningless.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. bush didn't win those elections on his own merit (hah!)
He had A LOT of help.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. I thought it was interesting that . . .
Mark Crispin Miller --- if I recall what he wrote correctly --- in one of his books suggests
that there may have been some "Christian/Evangelical" Repugs helping with the steals --- ???

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Well, then perhaps you want to explain Gore's winning the popular vote . . .
and in the recount by the press which occurred somewhere around the time of 9/11 . . . conveniently . . . Gore also won by anyway you count it ---

Meanwhile, Ohio is also in great question re the Kerry race ---

No -- no matter how poor the campaign, no one would be voting for these Repugs and much of the
evidence supports that ---

So --- here we are again --- with probably another STEAL being set up ---

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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
54. Despite the desire to believe that the US hasn't completely sunk to banana republic status...
... there are sufficient proof points all over the intertubes suggesting that, in fact, that's exactly what's happened. The various tactics used to steal Florida in 2000 were well-documented by Greg Palast and a few others. Here's a brief one by Palast from his website that breaks the theft down using official numbers from Florida's department of elections the US census. Of course, to read this kind of report you have to either buy their books or find articles on the web.

This is because, in America, it's a firing offense for a "journalist" to even breathe the words "election theft" in public -- probably even in a private stall in the executive washroom -- without being out on the streets two hours later looking for work.

As to 2004, it's same crime, different means, same mass media blackout. Corporate media will simply not touch this stuff with your 10 foot pole. Bobby Kennedy Jr. wrote this meticulously researched and footnoted article on the 2004 election theft for Rolling Stone. Here's a couple of paragraphs:

Despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad(3) never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote(4) -- after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations.(5) A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states,(6) was discovered shredding Democratic registrations.(7) In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes,(8) malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots.(9) Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment -- roughly one for every 100 cast.(10)

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.(11)


He wrote a follow-up article called http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11717105/robert_f_kennedy_jr__will_the_next_election_be_hacked">"Will the Next Election Be Hacked?", also for Rolling Stone, that's worth a read, too.

Mark Crispin Miller, journalist, author, professor of culture and communications at NYU and one of this country's most valuable and on-target pains in the ass to all things slimy and republican (is that redundant?), is interviewed in the January 2008 Harpers on the tactics he feels the GOPiggies will use to try and steal this one, too. One of my favorite Miller quotes from the interview:

“Doublethink” is Orwell’s deft conception of this sort of simultaneous dissimulation and fanatical conviction: deliberate deception based on (partial) self-deception. And Klemperer was acutely conscious of the Nazis’ quasi-religious zealotry. In his diary he repeatedly makes note of Hitler’s wild medieval frame of mind (at one point he refers to Hitler’s oratory as “the mad bawling of a priest”), yet also notes the element of mammoth orchestration in the Nazi propaganda–a genius for spectacular manipulation that reminds him of the works of Hollywood. Klemperer understood, in short, that what made Hitler and the Nazi movement so profoundly and unusually dangerous was this combination of crusading zest and up-to-date technique.

As I point out in Fooled Again, that sort of ferocious cunning has, throughout the centuries, marked paranoid crusades of every kind. Certainly we see it in Bush/Cheney’s movement, which includes radical theocrats, neocon extremists, dedicated neo-Confederates, and other types who tend to see themselves as victims and their struggle, therefore, as defensive. In their eyes, the very people whom they’re trying to destroy are ruthless and relentless, full of hate and fury, while they themselves are innocent, outnumbered, “fighting back.” In short, Bush/Cheney’s movement is projective, lividly imputing their own darkest impulses to everybody else.


Sounds about right...


There's a DU thread regarding a new tell-all book on just this subject written by one of the GOP's veteran perps. There are also some posts containing links to other sources of info on the massive con game the GOP has pulled off -- and damn well might again if they can just tweak the phony media-generated numbers in the final week before the election so that "the race" appears close enough to allay suspicions when they steal it again.

So I'd say that these "VERY bad campaigns" Gore and Kerry ran -- and it's impossible to understate the role corporate media played in perpetuating various lies about both of them, from the whole Swiftboat fairy tale to Gore's alleged claim to having invented the internet -- were still good enough to win both elections.

The public was pretty skeptical about the Bushies in 2000 and the uncertainty made the vote totals close enough to hide all the crap that's so well-described and documented by Palast and others.

By 2004, they were so sick of them they couldn't wait to get rid of them. Kerry was certainly not the strongest candidate, but in a fair fight, I think Ross Perot would have been tough for the Bushies to beat. The exit polls -- acknowledged by the parties, the networks, the FEC and even the UN "observers" as the most reliable cross-check against fraud or miscount of the actual ballots -- were lopsided in Kerry's favor the entire day.

Miraculously, when the polls closed and the exit polls showed that Kerry should be the clear winner in both popular and electoral votes, the networks -- on orders from the RNC -- simply threw out the exit poll results, claiming they were inherently flawed and that exit polls had never been known as the gold standard, and put the phony US mass media stamp of approval on another election theft and four more unbelievably hideous years of these raving madmen.

And then, just three weeks later, the hypocritical media hyenas did a 180 and praised the value of exit polls as the single non-impeachable source for determining the will of the people. This was apparently OK because they weren't talking about a US election.

Seems massive fraud was assumed to have completely corrupted national elections in The Ukraine. But how in hell would anyone be able to prove such and thing, much less determine a winner?

No problem, the exit polls were cited as solid evidence of vast election fraud by the bad guys (according the the Bushies). And because depravity isn't limited to the BushCo regime, the same network frauds -- the blow-dried simpletons known as "on-air talent" because even they know they're about as much "journalists" as I am a house cat -- this same pack of fools and suck-ups who had told us that the Ohio exit polls were flawed and inaccurate now told us that these very same exit polls had been the only thing standing between the will of the Ukrainian people and the scum who tried to steal their elections.

Bush, of course, weighed in. According to the Washington Post, which also had no problem inducing selective memory and obliterating all traces of their reporting of three weeks previous, here's how The Commander Guy reacted:

The White House, in a statement issued in Crawford, Tex., where Bush is spending Thanksgiving, said the United States "is deeply disturbed by extensive and credible indications of fraud committed in the Ukrainian elections."

The statement noted that "the United States stands with the Ukrainian people in this difficult time." The White House urged Ukrainian authorities not to certify the results until allegations of "organized fraud" are resolved, and to respect the will of the people.

In a letter delivered to Kuchma on Friday, President Bush, echoing similar statements by the European Union, warned Kuchma to make sure that the voting was free and the count was accurate.

"A tarnished election . . . will lead us to review our relations with Ukraine," Bush wrote.



Isn't that just fucking amazing? How much of a pure sociopath do you have to be to sign a statement like that? I hope he had the decency to laugh his ass off while first reading through it.

So I think the "lousy campaign" hypothesis could be be revisited maybe, particularly when that nonsensical mantra began life when it emerged from the mouths of the same co-opted, suet-brained professional status quo-shilling "pundits" who just the previous evening had been parroting every Swiftboat lie they could remember in their drug and alcohol addled conditions -- good little soldiers in the right wing echo chamber, hoping their contracts would be renewed if they could just continue proving their worth to the corporate massuhs.

It's noteworthy that these bottom-feeders appear exclusively on corporate media -- which is to say, nobody with any sense of decency, journalistic integrity or respect for the truth will have them because they're so horribly corrupt, venal and consistently wrong on damn near everything.

Plus, you really wouldn't want your sister to marry one.


wp
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. YES :(
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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
30. Freep hatred of McCain is less than or equal to hatred of Hillary & Obama
I have a few conservative friends. One of them is saying "FINALLY a candidate I can feel GOOD about voting for," and the other is in the "hold my nose and vote for McCain" camp.

I applaud your optimism, but don't count your chickens. We did that with Kerry in 2004. We did that with the "Fitzmas" that never happened. Count the chickens when they hatch. The battle is over when the battle is over. YES, we can win. NO, it's not guaranteed.

:patriot:
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. Some people need a daddy, some people want a leader.
It all boils down to that.

P.S. I reckon some people need a Paw-Paw, too. :eyes:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
40. Our candidate will be fighting McCain AND the RW wurlitzer...
Don't kid yourself.. Corporate Media has no interest in seeing a president that might start to challenge their massive monopolies and cut into spending on weapons systems..
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T Monk Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
41. he couldn't win a fair fight if he were a hundred years younger
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. "a fair fight "
This won't be a a "fair fight". It will be down & dirty as anyone can imagine.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
47. McDuh is gonna get buried in Donkey dung...Landslide.. Oppps. Dung SLIDE
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
51. NO
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
52. Good grief. You give good reasons why he shouldn't win. But
remember 2000 when the republicans stole the election and the Democrats kissed their asses.

Remember 2004 when the republicans stole the election and the Democrats kissed their asses.

Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

Be prepared for the dirtiest, messiest fight ever.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
56. Win? Legitimately?
Well, define "legitimate". Whatever happens during this election is whatever we allow.

It's time we learn the lessons of our recent past.
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mach2 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. I knew GW Bush could never get elected.
urk
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ShadowLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
58. Republican strategists say yes, he can win the Electoral College and lose the popular vote
A recent politico article you can view http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=3331302&mesg_id=3331302">here outlines quite clearly how McCain could win the electoral college despite possibly losing the popular vote (or the popular vote being even closer then the last 2 elections).

Like I've said before, I'm very pessimistic about our chances in 2008 of winning the White House, have been for ages, and the electoral college is a part of why, it heavily favors McCain and the GOP. Whenever someone has won in the electoral college but lost the popular vote the democratic party has ALWAYS lost.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
59. Wait the Public gets a wind/look see at RECOUNT and watch a bunch of weasels
steal the Oval office....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. :-) i try to console myself with that.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
61. That's what they asked about Reagan in 1980, Bush is 2000
Legitimately? No.

Realistically? Sure.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. anybody who doesn't think mccain can win is truly delusional. he can win whether O or hill is the de
dem nominee. i can not believe the O-nuts who are certain that obama's going to 'win in a landslide.' this must be their first election.
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