Wow. This long-lapsed Catholic is impressed with the seven "new" deadly sins -

[IndyOp]

The Vatican has brought up to date the traditional seven deadly sins by adding seven modern mortal sins it claims are becoming prevalent in what it calls an era of "unstoppable globalisation".

Those newly risking eternal punishment include drug pushers, the obscenely wealthy, and scientists who manipulate human genes. So "thou shalt not carry out morally dubious scientific experiments" or "thou shalt not pollute the earth" might one day be added to the Ten Commandments.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into Hell".

The new mortal sins were listed by Archbishop Gianfranco Girotti at the end of a week-long training seminar in Rome for priests, aimed at encouraging a revival of the practice of confession - or the Sacrament of Penance in Church jargon.

MODERN EVILS
Environmental pollution
Genetic manipulation
Accumulating excessive wealth
Inflicting poverty
Drug trafficking and consumption
Morally debatable experiments
Violation of fundamental rights of human nature

Seven original deadly sins: Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, Sloth

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7287071.stm

Wow. I just heard Thom Hartmann talking about this on his AAR show. He has long contrasted Republican morality as being about interpersonal behavior (sex!) while Democratic morality includes community behavior - environment, social justice...

I like this new list!

[niyad]

1. does buggering altar boys fall under the "violation of fundamental rights of human nature"?

[alfredo]

7. Morally Debatable experiment

[nichomachus]

15. WTF does that mean???

I could argue that abstinence only education is a morally debatable experiment.

We're pretty sure it doesn't work. We're pretty sure people die from it through lack of sound sexual education. Yet, they continue to try it.

[alfredo]

17. No, it was a tongue in cheek reply to the above post.

[nichomachus]

22. Not you -- just the term they used. It doesn't make any sense.

don't see the post above yours.

[alfredo]

29. Think of the Nazi experiments on twins.

[nichomachus]

32. I don't think those were "debatable"

That's my problem with it. Had they said "unethical," then I'd agree, but debatable could just mean that someone disagrees with it. It's a really squishy term -- just like some people think that evolution is "debatable."

[alfredo]

37. I think they are talking about cloning.

[TZ]

41. And stem cell research.

Lets not forget the Catholic Church is one of the big factors in influncing roadblocks in research on them.

[alfredo]

50. Yes. I think they bundle stem cell research and cloning as one.

[endarkenment]

46. I'm thinking the pope at the time: not too concerned. nt

[IndyOp]

11. Sexual abuse of children is most definitely a violation of fundamental rights...

I am no defender of the Catholic church. Sexual abuse has a long, horrific presence in the church.

A movie that brings the story home: Deliver Us From Evil. Over 100,000 victims in the U.S. and the current Pope is responsible for having kept the horror from coming to light and negatively impacting donations.

Deliver Us From Evil
http://www.deliverusfromevilthemovie.com/index_flash.php

[alfredo]

20. It is not just the church it is a disease of people in power. They feel

they have the right to do as they wish because of their power.

[IndyOp]

58. I get what you are saying. There is an additional wrinkle for some "cultists"

in the church -- the combination of sex and violence of child sex abuse is seen by a subset of sick cultists as "divine initiation" into the church.

:(

[alfredo]

79. A rite of passage. In some societies the tribal elders get the first

crack at young girls. Assholes.

[graywarrior]

2. Republican catholic politicians are going to hell.

[rurallib]

13. Will bishops call for them not to be allowed communion?

Yeah - I doubt it too.

[alfredo]

26. Bishops get their freak on too. I used to know guy in Detroit who was

the boyfriend of the local Bishop. The guy always had new clothes, dined at the best restaurants, even got bailed out of jail by the Bishop. I assume the Bishop used his stipend to entertain his sweetheart. If not, he needed to get smacked down.

I used to drive cab in Detroit. One of the taxi stands was outside a seminary school. At happy hour I would take a couple fares to The Town Pump, a local gay bar. That was fine with me. They desired each other, not kids. They tipped well, and in time grew to trust me enough to be real around me.

Homosexuality in the priesthood is not a problem, pederasty is. A gay priest is just a priest. A pederast priest is a threat to children and the church. If there is such a thing as sin, pederasty ranks high on the lists of sin.

[graywarrior]

38. I worked for a church in MA and all the parishiners knew abut the head guys girlfriend

They both took off together every weekend.

[alfredo]

49. I for one think priests should be allowed to marry.

[moggie]

They probably already own it

[margotb822]

3. Thom pointed out the difference

between sin and injustice. Personally, I think injustice is worse, but that's just me...

[spanone]

4. and what does the church consider 'excessive' wealth? ...is a gold chalice excessive?

no opinion on torturing?

how about invading and killing thousands in an unprovoked war?

[yardwork]

25. I noticed the curious omission of "waging war" among the newly named sins.

[Posteritatis]

81. The manual's moderately clear on the murder issue

That said, "inflicting poverty" (what Iraqi economy?), "violation of the fundamental rights of human nature" (*coughabughraibcough*) and "environmental pollution" (the other, less entertaining DU) all certainly fall under waging war. Depending on how, uh, creative those fighting can get, most of the others can qualify as well. Mengele would be classic "morally debatable experiments," for instance.

[ThomWV]

5. I believe we have Dante, not the Bible, to thank for the "7 deadly sins"

[Deep13]

6. What makes then "sins" rather than just immoral? nt

[truedelphi]

8. Wish they'd listed eight or nine

My proposal for number eight and nine would be:
8) Fighting unecssary wars for profit.
9) Choosing to fight wars before insuring the citizenry's health needs.

[napi21]

12. I would think your 8 & 9 would be already covered in

Inflicting proverty

Violating the human rights of others.

[truedelphi]

30. You are right. If we didn't have the dumbest President in the world

And the smuggest rich people (What do you mean you don't have Health Insurance? You were too lazy to sign up for it? My excecutive husband pays $ 120 bucks a month for all six of us? Why are you too cheap to pay $ 120 like we do?) I wouldn't feel the necessity of SPELLING IT OUT!!

[truedelphi]

31. You are right. If we didn't have the dumbest President in the world

And the smuggest rich people (What do you mean you don't have Health Insurance? You were too lazy to sign up for it? My excecutive husband pays $ 120 bucks a month for all six of us? Why are you too cheap to pay $ 120 like we do?) I wouldn't feel the necessity of SPELLING IT OUT!!

[AspenRose]

9. "Inflicting poverty"

:mad: :nuke:

[Mountainman]

19. Looting was such a stupid charge. Were would the looters put the items looted, in his boat?

African Americans looted, Whites were foraging for food.

[Bolo Boffin]

10. Accumulating wealth and Inflicting poverty

The Catholic Church has accumulated great wealth over the centuries, all the while inflicting poverty in their congregations by denying birth control.

However, the tenor of the list is generally good. You can see where they'd fit in abortion, of course, and stem cell research. But I will give them credit for good faith in the issuing of this list. It is trying to make the world a better place.

[DinahMoeHum]

14. Gandhi's list of the 7 deadly sins. . .

Knowledge without character,
Commerce without morality,
Wealth without work,
Pleasure without conscience,
Worship without sacrifice,
Politics without principle,
Science without humanity.

:think:

[yardwork]

28. That sums up the Republican platform!

[IndyOp]

60. I have list posted on my office wall... Love it. (n/t)

[onehandle]

16. The Catholic Church is not like the fundie churches.

They agree with the sciences and often keep up with the times.

They will have to continue to change or die.

Let priests marry. That's all I ask.

[niyad]

21. agree with the sciences? dark ages, anyone? galileo?

[onehandle]

24. Yes, and things changed.

Note the absence of the Spanish Inquisition too.

[Sal Minella]

34. But the office of the Inquisition still exists under a different name, and Ratzinger was actually

the head of it. The Vatican still disallows using condoms to prevent AIDS, which is immoral and evil, imo.

Edit:
"Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" is what they call the Inquisition now -- see Wiki link -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI#Prefect_of_the_Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith_.281981.E2.80.932005.29

[keroro gunsou]

65. well that's because...

nobody expects the spanish inqusition.

[judasdisney]

71. Apology Is Policy: Violate first while claiming moral superiority, apologize later ... whoops

[Sal Minella]

85. And then give the violators cushy jobs in the Vatican library.

[nichomachus]

23. But if priests marry

what function will their husbands have in the church.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. "They agree with the sciences"

Accept for that satanic molecular biology, apparently.

[onehandle]

51. If you're talking about Transubstantiation, that's a pretty small issue.

And more of a faith thing that has no negative effect on the world at large. That philosophical concept doesn't compare with those who deny global warming.

If you believe in God, what's one more leap of faith.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. I'm talking about genetic manipulation.

Which is a major cornerstone of modern science.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. And ordain women. nt

[bryant69]

18. I don't like it - I think it's interesting

But not nearly as good as the original list. Frankly most people aren't ever going to get the opportunity to commit those sins, at least not on a dangerous level. The original list was seven traits were could all see in ourselves, they were challenges everybody had to overcome. A discussion of sin should end with "What do I need to do to overcome this sin?" I'd like to be in a position where I had to overcome the sin of "Overcoming Excessive Wealth," but I'm not, and most people aren't.

That said it is of course good that the Catholic church seems to be aware of those inequalities and injustices that characterize our days.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[dysfunctional press]

27. i don't think the movie version will be as good as the original "seven"...

nt

[endarkenment]

33. So its off to hell for drinking wine?

Oh, wait, not that drug. Ok, so its off to hell for smoking tobacco? Oh, wait, not that drug. So its off to hell for drinking coffee? Oh wait, not that drug. So, its off to hell for taking Xanax? Oh wait, not that drug.

Which drugs do I go to hell for and why? Do the drug companies go to hell, or just the crack dealers?

[jmowreader]

44. If there's not a UPC on it, you go to hell for taking it.

[endarkenment]

45. So if I make my own beer - straight to hell?

Yikes. The rules are so confusing.

[jmowreader]

63. Straight to hell. Sorry, man, but those are the rules.

No UPC = no ticket to heaven.

[reggie the dog]

75. direct conflict with Rastas

you go to Catholic hell for using cannabis and for growing and selling it. You speak to Jah by smoking, growing, giving it to others and go to Rasta heaven. Personally I would rather go to Rasta heaven than Catholic heaven.

Just another hopeless sinner going to hell for growing and using cannabis as well as helping their friends find it.

[lame54]

35. how about pedophilia or wearing large hats?

[jmowreader]

64. Large hats (aka "church hats") are fine.

Pedophilia should send you straight to hell, but we haven't heard from Benny the Rat on that.

[Evoman]

36. What's wrong with genetic manipulation?

:shrug:

Scratch medicine. Scratch Insulin for diabetics. Scratch food for the hungry.

Oh well..maybe god will take care of all of us :eyes:

[TZ]

39. Its teh evul ya know

At least according to many on this board.--Scratch DNA vaccines and cancer immunotherapeutics too.
Wouldn't want the scientists to play god and you know..heal people.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Genetic manipulation?

Jee-sus.

That's as dumb and ignorant as when they used to censor heliocentrism.

[Sal Minella]

42. They didn't really "censor" it. They just executed people who believed in it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. And burned all the books.

:shrug:

[Sal Minella]

57. Well, yeah, that too.....

[spoony]

83. You're both full of shit

Heliocentrism as a theory was developed by a member of the clergy decades before Galileo was put on trial, mostly for insulting the pope rather than promoting his theory.

[Sal Minella]

84. Are you referring to Copernicus, or do I need to guess again?

[Iggo]

48. "Drug trafficking and consumption."

Smoke pot, go to hell? Nice one there, yer Popeness.

[angstlessk]

52. for catechism it was easy to remember those one word sins..

..not sure how I would do with them new ones??

[Posteritatis]

82. I wonder if that's the intent?

The original seven have kind of boiled down to a series of vaguely archaic-sounding buzzwords. People know "wrath" or "pride" are on the list, but they've kind of just sat there for so long that I assume they've kind of faded into half-invisibility despite the fact that the original seven all have somewhat nuanced definitions behind them. (Gluttony has six subdefinitions!)

Most of the 'new' seven here seem redundant with some of the old ones ("inflicting poverty" being "greed" with the added caveat of directly harming others, for instance), but they feel more contemporary and seem somewhat clearer despite being wordier. Some of them, like "morally debatable experiments," are vague enough, and others like genetic manipulation I simply disagree with (and the Church's views on that seem to change once a month anyway).

I do like the fact that the general tone of these ones seems to be an emphasis on pointing out that harming others is bad. The classic seven feel a lot more like thoughtcrime.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

55. "Morally debatable?"

If I'm reading that right, it essentially means if reasonable people can disagree whether an experiment is or is not moral or ethical, then the experimenter is doomed to Hell. This, regardless of whether the experiment is in truth moral.

[Pale Blue Dot]

56. Funny how the "written by God" Bible didn't pick up on these.

I thought that god was omniscient and omnipresent? It almost makes you think that the Bible was written by men....

[PeaceNikki]

59. Drug consumption and trafficking?

Does that include Merck, Pfizer, Eli Lilly, GlaxoSmithKline, Roche, Bristol-Myers Squibb and on and on and on?

[reggie the dog]

76. no, just people like me who

grow and smoke our own weed and give some leftovers to friends. The drug companies will not go to hell. Of course if you grow and smoke cannabis in Spain where it is legal to grow and use, you can still go to heaven. Quite a break for that catholic country. But if you do the same thing in neighboring France, where it is illegal but as Catholic, you go to hell.

[Iris]

61. Drug trafficking but not human trafficking?

I guess that goes under fundamental rights of human nature, but still, seems like human trafficking should be on its own.

Also, what counts as environmental pollution? How about lots and lots of Pampers for all the babies you'll have by avoiding the Lust sin through lack of birth control.

[JuniperLea]

62. Damning BushCo to Hell is a wonderful thing!

I like to see change in ancient thought. We could use a lot more of this.

[Avalux]

66. I think it's cool we can now believe aliens exist.

Cause God created them too. Really - how progressive is that?? ;)

[Elspeth]

67. Oh no! The Catholic church has become SECULAR HUMANISM!!

LOL!

[dweller]

68. the more things change, the more they remain the same

OG7-New Updated- Gandhi

Sloth=Environmental pollution=Pleasure without conscience
Pride=Genetic manipulation=Worship without sacrifice
Greed=Accumulating excessive wealth=Wealth without work
Anger=Inflicting poverty=Politics without principle
Gluttony=Drug trafficking and consumption=Commerce without morality
Envy=Morally debatable experiments=Science without humanity
Lust=Violation of fundamental rights of human nature=Knowledge without character


is this a pop-test?
dp

[reggie the dog]

77. explain to me how selling cannabis is commerce without morality

How? no one has ever died from cannabis. How is it immoral to use or sell it? What about Rastafarians? To them cannabis is a sacrement. It it immoral for them to use their sacrement?

[Fox Mulder]

69. Well, the Catholic church has already broke #'s 3 and 7 on that list.

For sure.

#6...I wouldn't doubt.

[crimsonblue]

70. Hey Benedict,

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

[Wizard777]

72. There is nothing that entering into a man that can defile that man.

It is the things that come from the man that defile him. That includes drugs.

So the Pope may have defiled himself by issuing these new seven deadly sins that in part contradict the teachings of Christ.

[reggie the dog]

73. IF you drink alcohol

You use drugs, therefore you are committing one of the modern evils.

[NNN0LHI]

74. Drug consumption has went from an illness to a sin?

Whats up with that?

Wonder why a war of choice that kills a million innocent people is not mentioned? Don't want to upset their big donors making money off of doing it. Thats why.

Raping children isn't mentioned either for some reason.

Don

[reggie the dog]

78. Why do you consider me to be a modern example of evil?

Am I really evil because I grow and use cannabis?

[AngryOldDem]

80. Sometimes I get some glimmers of hope that the Church will join the 21st century.

Number #7 kind of inherently contradicts its opposition to homosexuality and the use of artificial birth control. Slowly, but surely, perhaps the light is beginning to dawn. But it will probably take another millenia for it to truly break through.

The wheels of the Church barely grind, let alone grind slowly.