I can't believe I agree with Bush on the Housing Bill

[edhopper]

He says he will veto the Frank/Dodd Housing Bill. He should. It rewards lenders who made bade loans, it rewards people who bought overpriced houses that they could not afford, in the midst of the biggest housing bubble in U.S. history. It puts taxpayers on the hook for 100s of billions of dollars in bad loans and helps out all the big banks who profited by the sub-prime shenanigans and now that it's falling apart are getting a big government rescue. This is a bad bill and not what we should be doing in this mess. What's next? Bailing out people who took on too much credit card debt? In Economics violating the Moral Hazard has dire consequences.
It's is rare that Bush does anything I don't find revolting, but he is right this time.

[Subdivisions]

1. Gotta agree. Dodd's been giving me reason to pause lately. I'm

still not convinced his http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1858">S. 1858 is benign in its mission to collect DNA from all newborns.

[coriolis]

2. I somewhat reluctantly agree. While I have no problem helping those truly in need,

bailing out a borrower with a half-million dollar mortgage is taking charity to an obscene level.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. You've bought in to their bullshit, where loan counseling = trial lawyers

and so on. Sure it's a mixed bag, but it's always a mixed bag. If jr gets his way, everybody but the well do to continue to suffer.

[edhopper]

4. I've bought into nobodies bullshit.,

explain where I'm wrong. I think the banks should have two choices, take the house in foreclosure and have a total loss (good luck selling a foreclosed home in this market, while your paying for upkeep and taxes) or renegotiate the loan to something the borrower can afford. The Government should NOT be on the hook for bad decisions made by buyers and lenders. And especially Hedge Fund CDO bundlers.
IF the Government does this and props up home prices they are harming all the people who saved money in order to buy a home at an affordable price with a down payment and a mortgage they can afford.

And btw, I like trial lawyers. Loan counselors should be doing this, WITHOUT Government guaranteeing bad loans.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. I guess you pick & choose what parts of the democratic agenda

suit you, depending on your own circumstance. Sort of buffet liberalism. Good for you.

[edhopper]

15. I did not know

that bailing out major financial institutions that behaved with willful abaondon was part of the Democratic agenda.

[blondeatlast]

16. As a recent buyer who bought with a substantial saved down payment plus equity in my old home,

I see it differently.

Do I resent that my neighbors will get a break I didn't get? Hell, yes, big time.

Am I glad to see that homes on my block won't be abandoned and then go into foreclosure, driving MY property values down even faster than they already have gone down? Hell, yes, big time again. My neighbors can stay, my property values won't plummet worse than they already have--and in return, predatory lenders get off scot-free; I wish it were otherwise, but I happen to really like all of my neighbors--whether they made big down payments or not.

Solving economic problems sucks, ya know?

[edhopper]

18. Except this doesn't solve the problem

homes will remain unaffordable to millions of Americans and the extra debt piled on this country will put further downward pressure on the dollar. There is no free lunch. I'm sorry if your home loses some value, but I don't think it's in this country's interest to bail out people who acted in a bad or stupid way. This will also allow the banks and Wall Street to keep acting irresponsibily.

[blondeatlast]

22. I didn't buy as an investment and have no sympathy for those that did.

They can rot in hell, AFAIC.

"For Sale" signs and unkempt properties do nothing to make me feel serene, though.

[Goodnevil]

5. Mortgage Meltdown is because of Health Care Costs

I was working in escrow/title during the refinance boom and I can tell you that most of the sub-prime borrowers we had were having to wrap their credit card debt and judgment debt into their houses anyway that they could.

Where did this credit card debt come from 9 out of 10 times? GUESS? HEALTH CARE COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's right, most of them couldn't afford to pay their hospital bills or they were hospitalized without insurance.

I closed, on average, 450 sub-prime loans a month for 5 years and the vast majority of the people we closed had no chance of being able to repay their mortgages or deal with the ARM adjustments or balloon payments. They were desperate.

Trust me, the health insurance companies and medical care industries are the ones who benefitted from the mortgage meltdown.

We shouldn't bail these people out, but we should be aware as to why so many of them took such desperate measures.

True, some of them just spent their way into oblivion...that's the sad truth. I saw one woman who took out $1.2 million in store credit cards with a $50,000 a year salary. She was rejected when she tried to wrap that debt into her house.

[edhopper]

8. The way to fix that

is allow debt from Healthcare to be exempt from bankruptcy. Which the Repukes prevented.
And of course Universal Healthcare. This bill addresses none of that.
It Does let off all those lenders who made bad loans, knowing they were bad loans, but thought they could pawn them off. Well, it looks like they can, to us taxpayers.

[Lance_Boyle]

6. Agreed entirely.

It hurts to see Barney Frank's good name on this POS bill. No rewards for those who fucked themselves.

[Goodnevil]

7. an old addage in the title industry

"Not everyone was meant to own a home."

Our bosses don't like for us to say that, but it's true.

[Robbien]

9. Get ready to agree with him for a second time

A real fat pork laden farm bill is coming down the pike with huge payouts to factory farms and also includes illegal subsidies which hurt developing nations.

Bush said he would veto the bill.

[Goodnevil]

10. I don't care if developing nations are hurt

Crush them. I am an American. Global "trickle over" economics doesn't work. Investing overseas has nearly destroyed our way of life and economy.

It's the same game that's been played since the dawn of humanity...crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of the women!

[edhopper]

12. Good one!

[Robbien]

13. You have blinders on

Your enemy is not the dirt poor farmers in Latin America that you take such delight in making their women weep.

Your enemy is the fat robber barons who take money from YOUR pocket and put in in theirs. However, these are the people you support by your cheers.

You are right to be angry, but your anger is so misdirected.

[Goodnevil]

19. Seriously?

You're trying to tell me that a farmer in Honduras has more of a right to sell Americans tomatoes than a farmer in rural Arkansas?????

Hi, conservative, why don't we just let "market forces" work out. That's worked out really well for the American people.

I'm not beholden to some multinational corp nor to some glorified international welfare system.

Sounds to me that when you advocate that kind of free trade nonsense you're the one lining the pockets of the robber barons. They make a profit either way while OUR women weep.

[Robbien]

20. You still have blinders on

A dirt poor farmer in Honduras has no intention of selling tomatoes to Americans. That farmer wants to raise corn for his family and sell excess in local markets. However, our Farm Bill has subsidized our corn prices to such low levels and this "Free" Trade Agreement you support allows this cheap corn to flow into the Honduran farmer's market thus pricing him out of his own market.

Your tax dollars are going to bankrupt Honduran farmers. Your tax dollars are also going to robber baron factory farm owners pockets.

Yet YOU stand on the boarder with your guns threatening to shoot any immigrating Honduran farmer you just threw out of his home.

[Goodnevil]

21. No blinders...just reality

I don't care about the Honduran farmer. It's him or me. I vote me.

I have compassion toward Americans because that's the social contract we are all involved in called the Constitution.

I never made a social contract with the Honduran farmer. While I have compassion for him I never made a ny agreement with him. Do you think he gives two flips about me?

You're dealing in fantasies that won't be realities for centuries.

I suppose that we create our own reality, but I'm sorry, I'm not willing to go to bat for the other guy.

While we're on the subject, this is exactly the kind of bleeding heart crud that has destroyed this party and turned the average guy against Democrats. How are you going to convince an out-of-work steel worker that this is all for the good of a Chinese worker who might very well be a good human being?

We're all human, and I've read enough history to know that we've all got to come together, but not like this. If you continue to send these jobs overseas we're going to create a lot of pissed off people who will want to bomb those workers to get their jobs back.

I'm just dealing in human realities here. No one is above it.

[depakid]

23. This is PRECISELY why when your economy collapses that you won't get much sympathy

from abroad.

[Goodnevil]

25. My economy?

I suspect we won't get much sympathy either way because of Iraq, torture and everything in between.

[Robbien]

24. The reality is

billions of our tax dollars are going into the ownership society's pockets.
We the taxpayers get to pay for these subsidies. We the taxpayers get to pay for higher food prices. We the taxpayers get to pay to make sure the Honduran farmer get evicted. We the taxpayers get screwed.

Ownership Society Robber Barons live the high life on our Farm Bill subsidies.

If you only care about YOU, then YOU should take off those blinders and stop gleefully supporting the handing over of your dollars to the Factory Farm Robber Barons. YOU get nothing from it. Absolutely nothing. In fact you get stiffed.

So all the greedy selves to whom you say Dems should appeal should not be in favor of increasing their taxes so that the Factory Farm Robber Barons get their welfare checks.

[Goodnevil]

26. At least we'll get those tax dollars

from the factory farms. If you subsidize some goofball in the Honduras all you get is loss of wages for American workers and no taxable income that can be redistributed to offset any budgetary costs.

YOu have NO chance of getting any money out of that Honduras worker via taxes.

[Robbien]

27. No Honduran farmer gets US subsidies

So where is your logic?

We give the Honduran farmer diddlysquat. All the Honduran farmer wants is to have a fair local Honduran market in which to sell his crop. He doesn't want your tax dollars going to subsidize corn prices in his market.

He wants YOU to keep your tax dollars in the US and leave him and his market to its own market devices.

[Goodnevil]

28. Sorry

I misunderstood your argument. Either way, I'd rather tax that farmcorp even if it means that the Honduran gets screwed over.

Otherwise you enrich the corp, the foreign farmer and you impoverish the U.S. government and the U.S. worker by loss of taxes and wages. How do you propose to uplift all? Tariffs on trade goods from Honduras?

What is the benefit to the American worker or government by allowing fair trade with that Honduran?

[Robbien]

30. Only one class benefits

The factory farm robber barons get billions of your tax dollars in the Farm subsidy bill.

You get nothing from that subsidy. You still pay through the nose for crappy polluted food because of our market speculators.

You get nothing for your welfare checks to the factory farms.

Hondurans don't give a care how much of your money you give to factory farms, just as long as you keep your factory farm crappy polluted product in the US and leave them alone.

There is no benefit to the US civilian, to the Honduran farmer or to the American government by allowing free trade.

The only beneficiaries of free trade are the global robber barons who make huge profits off of our welfare checks and make huge profits from selling their product to the market speculators.

[Goodnevil]

32. Bull manure

You're trying to tell me that those factory farms in the U.S. wouldn't employ U.S. workers that would make U.S. dollars? Are you saying that the subsidies we provide to those factory farms are greater than the tax revenue we gain from them and the workers they employ?

[Robbien]

33. Most factory farms

pay almost no taxes because we give huge tax credits for farmers. They get huge credits up front from the Farm subsidy, and then at the back end the IRS gives them a pass when the tax man comes around.

And most factory farms do not employ Americans. Most wages are sent out of the country to worker's families in Latin America.

America gets nothing from factory farms except bad food and polluted land/air.

[Goodnevil]

37. If elected

to a country who would elect a pagan and a vegan to national public office, I would do away with tax breaks for factory farms, mandate that they produce only organic foods and only employ documented American citizens or those with a work visa.

Goodnevil 2126!!!!!!!!!

[edhopper]

11. I must say that

Bush and Greenspan are as responsible for the Bubble as much as anybody. Remember when he touted how high home ownership was? He's still the worst president ever, he just happens to be right this time, probably for the wrong reasons, but he's right about the bill.

[Perry Logan]

17. It's possible to agree with GWB. Before he held office, he said he was "unfit to hold office."

[Juche]

29. You shouldn't overlook the predatory aspect of this

Banks preyed on blacks and latinos to drive them into subprime mortgages.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/06/crl_predatory_study.html

The most extensive study of its kind shows that even after controlling for differences such as credit scores and the amount of the down payment, African-Americans and Latinos still wind up with a disproportionate share of expensive loans.

Examining 50,000 subprime loans, the Center's researchers found these groups were almost a third more likely to get a high-priced loan than white borrowers with the same credit profile.



if you read Malcolm Gladwell's book 'blink' he talks about how there is an unspoken assumption that blacks and women are 'suckers' when they walk into a used car lot while white men are considered financially astute. As a result blacks and women are talked into loans that are too shoddy for a white male to get talked into.

Point being, you can't overlook the predatory aspect of some of these loans and the fact that alot of people who qualified for better loans were talked into subprimes. Eliot Spitzer tried to force the US gov to enforce regulations, but the Bush admin stopped him.

[Goodnevil]

31. In my experience

the black and latino borrowers I worked with weren't any more or less saavy than the white borrowers I worked with. To be honest with you, they all had blinders on from the beginning to the end with rare exceptions.

To all of them, they seemed to just be looking at that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and that door out of debt. They all had POVERTY in common. I had just as many, if not more, poor white people that I closed loans for as blacks or latinos.

I worked with Countrywide, E-Loan, Fidelity Mortgage, Indymac, Suntrust...all of the big ones.

[Juche]

34. Nonetheless there is a tendency to get blacks or latinos into subprime loans

Even when you correct for credit and down payments, blacks and latinos are more likely to be put into subprime loans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/opinion/17wed2.html

Talking people into loans they are overqualified for to the point where they lose their homes (which they would keep if they had gotten fixed rate mortgages that alot of them were qualified for) is predatory.

[Cleita]

35. Whenever Republicans offer something that looks good to liberals

like Arnold Schwarzenegger does (Bush must be reading his play book), look for the poison pill and the hidden agenda. Usually, there is something buried under the rhetoric that benefits the same old corporate scavengers in the end.

For example to go back in time, look at the Jarvis Ammendment that brought us institutionalized homelessness. It was sold to us as lowering property taxes for the poor elderly on fixed incomes who could no longer pay taxes on their homes that had escalated in value beyond their means.

What it actually did was defund all the programs that were keeping marginal people off the streets, throwing them on to the streets. The lower property taxes started a real estate boom that speculators jumped on outpricing most people who would be buying a single family home and turning those properties into commodities to be bought and sold. Hence it added more homelesso the streets and now has come to a head with the mortgage crisis, a scam to put people into over priced homes who needed them but couldn't afford them.

If only we had looked at that Jarvis Ammendment with a very critical eye.

[ColbertWatcher]

36. I can't believe the GOP's bills.

No matter what the bill says, after the GOP gets through with it, it will be different and don't forget Dubya's signing statements.