Yet another thread about the polygamist wives

[Stinky The Clown]

Yes, they creep me out. The dead eyes, the odd clothes, and odd hairdos, the odd speech patterns.

But let's consider something ....... these women were bred to be this way. Yes, I chose the word bred to imply a similarity to domesticated animals.

I am unaware of any of them knocking on the gates of the compound and asking to join.

They were young, abused girls before they were creepy, weird, dead-eyed, odd women.

The villians here are not these women. The villains are the men who bred them to be this way.

[varelse]

1. Thank you

for "getting it" about these women. I hope the cycle is now broken, and that the children have a chance to grow up to be free to make what they will of their own lives.

[LisaL]

3. Yea, right.

The state took them away and is probably gonna try to stick them into foster care. I am sure they will just have wonderful lives.

[RedCappedBandit]

22. Would they be better off back with a bunch of child molesters?

[seabeyond]

2. harvest girls for the entertainment and use for men

i have never seen it this way for any female. in the last couple days, with this compound, this is how i now view this whole situation. pretty consistent with your view even though not the same words.

[Prefer]

4. they're like the amish of that religion, seems like

seems like some creativity might help this situation to get to whats best for everyone.

[LisaL]

5. I've seen lots of Amish around here. Similar styles of clothing.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. What I know of the Amish is that they're free to leave at will

I am sure there's social pressure not to, but I am unaware of them being kept virtual prisoners .... and they respect the basic family unit. One wife for every husband.

I think the similarity starts and ends with their choice of fashion.

[LisaL]

7. I don't know about you, but I've read stories about sexual abuse

allegations among the amish.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I've read stories about sexual abuse pretty much everywhere

In that compound, it was institutionalized.

I am unaware of any parallel to the Amish.

[The Straight Story]

9. Like I have said before: We rescued the Natives here in America from their ways

No reason we cannot rescue others today from not conforming.

Lord knows what women here (native Americans) went through before we saved them.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. So .... you think its okay to breed women?

Or have I misunderstood your somewhat cryptic post (which I admit is possible)?

[The Straight Story]

14. Well, I guess I was a bit cryptic :)

Basically it boils down to us telling others how to live.

We, like the Europeans (and others) before us have an ideal of what is best for people - and we tend to use that as a reason to take over things and 'liberate' people from their barbaric ways.

The Indians here in the States (the US) probably were seen as savages for their views by others at the time, and were 'saved' by a group of people. They were punished because they were not like those in power and had differing views on things.

Now, many years later, we lament those actions based on the ideals of Europeans. And yet here we are today doing the same thing to others - because we believe our way is the only right way.

Forcing our beliefs on others is not always a good thing. But many would like to see it as a good thing.

And NO I don't think personally it is OK. But then I am not one who wants to tell others how to live their lives.

If they were happy and living in a country where they had the freedom to choose, and they chose that life I am ok with that. If they were FORCED to live a life they did not want to live, then I want them to be able to have a choice.

And here they have a choice, and they were not complaining about it.

It is not for me to tell them they were wrong, even if I think they were totally wrong.

[Lars39]

16. You are horribly misinformed if you think they had a choice.

[The Straight Story]

17. Well then, one must ask here

Did Indian women (American Indian) have a choice? And were the Europeans right in what they did to 'liberate' them?

[Lars39]

19. Lousy comparison...equating tribal life to a frickin' cult.

[LisaL]

20. I think it was in Australia that Aboriginal children were taken

away from their parents in the past. That probably would be better analogy then the Indian (Native Americans) tribes.

[The Straight Story]

26. Not Lousy

It is a comparison between cultures - one that thinks it is right and the other which thinks it is.

Are you willing to use force to dictate your culture because you think it is superior? If so, then how wrong were the early Christians here in their ideals of 'liberating' the 'savages' from their culture?

And for the record, I am really on your side on this particular issue - but it does make me wonder - why are we so hard on early settlers here in the US and what they did? And is it really all that different from what we are doing now?

The only difference is, is that we see ourselves as more 'advanced' than those folks. Which has an odd ring to it....

[Stinky The Clown]

27. What if they practiced human sacrifice

is that okay, too?

[LisaL]

29. Well, I would draw a line at human sacrifice.

:eyes:

[The Straight Story]

30. Some would say that about abortion

Are they right?

[Stinky The Clown]

21. I'm sorry, but that's kinda like comparing a mercury cougar to a plate of red beans and rice

In other words ..... no way to make a comparison.

[RedCappedBandit]

25. If they were brainwashed from the time they were little children,

then no, they don't have a choice. Thats just how human development works. I get what you're saying, but it is not necessarily applicable in this situation.

[drmeow]

40. Do you think a Native American

child would have contacted an outside leader to say that she was being sexually abused?

CPS did not go into that compound randomly. They went in because they got a call from someone basically asking to be rescued. That someone was not free to leave and was not happy with her culture. All the girls who have left the FLDS church have had to escape or be rescued.

Those girls aren't given a choice. Even when they beg not to be married off, they are forced. The boys don't have a choice. They are raised without exposure to the "real" world until they are thrown out when they get too old. I've read interviews with some of those boys who are now adults. They are completely unprepared to survive once they are kicked out.

[LisaL]

42. They have never found that allegedly 16 year old. The guy

accused of being the husband apparently hasn't been to TX in decades. There was apparently a similar call made by someone claiming to be in AZ.
Where exactly is that allegedly 16 year old caller?

[drmeow]

45. Whether the 16 year old existed or not

they had to investigate. If they found evidence of abuse, they could remove all the threatened children. They've known of abuse in the compound since day one but couldn't do anything about it until they had legal recourse to act.

[Mind_your_head]

44. No, there is something very different about abuse......

and the subjugation that results from years of abuse.

I, unfortunately, *know*.

edit: spelling

[alittlelark]

23. Many Native American tribes were Matrilineal

All property passed through the females. The Iroquois are best known, but many SW and Pacific tribes also respected the powerful role of women in their sucess and survival.

[AngryAmish]

11. I thought their hairdos are kinda sexy

[Disturbed]

12. I feel kind of sad for these women.

They have been victimized & now their children have been taken away. The men are the villains. Young girls being conditioned to accept being "wives" to men as property to be done with as the men please is wrong & criminal.

This should have been stopped many years ago.

[Warpy]

13. Thanks, Stinky, it's about time somebody else said it.

These women are the VICTIMS of a sex cult. Yes, even though they enforced the harsh rules against their own children, don't forget they were kept in a prison of sorts from birth and grew up thinking rape and battery at the hands of a few powerful old men was NORMAL.

I just hope more of the truth of what these men have been doing to women and children for years comes out. I think every one of those bloody patriarchs belongs in prison.

[drmeow]

41. Well, Warren Jeffs has been

for the entire time of his first trial (found guilty) and his second trial. The members of the cult are terrified of him, even with him in jail.

[vixengrl]

15. They do not know another way.

When I look at the eyes, the expressions, and hear the quiet voices, I see ghosts. These women are like a remnant out of the past--like some Golden Age of Child Bridehood. They were raised to believe that a soft, mellow voice was an excellent thing, and a woman should not scold or speak against her menfolk. Their clothing is a spectre of the late Victorian era--it is prim and modest.

But to them, our culture is the weird one. Our culture is what threatens to spill out the secrets of what goes on behind the gates of the closed community, what we should not have seen, what they could never question. And on one hand, it could be better to break the cycle--to see their daughters taken outside so they don't hear their sorrowed cries before they are taken to cleave to their spouse--and have his babies, while they are still babies themselves. But one the other hand, this is how it was for them, and how it was for their mothers. They are torn between the two worlds: one that they know, that is traditional, which is the way they and theirs and everyone they know understands, with a set of rules and repercussions for straying they understand fully, and other, which insists it will let their children be children and then let them grow up in health--but in what must look to them like such an unstructured, Godforsaken wilderness. That fear was put there by the entire community--a brother and sisterhood of reinforcing their separateness and cult-identity. The dominance of men, and the shamed and shared grief of women made to see this as the only way, their choices cut off, united to instill them with a sense that their way was all there could be--to fear what was outside. The government is taking these children, for all they know, to instruct them in sin. When all anyone wants is for them to be healthy and happy.

But I agree--these women could not seem so indifferent to health or sanity for their children, were they not reared against their own instincts to want something better, freer, happier, for their own children. The patriarchal culture taught them that what we consider decent is a lie--and early marriage and breaking down the wayward spirit of a girl, making a woman of her, devoting her to family, is the proper way to keep her from evil. From the sin of her own volition. Her selfhood. Because of their upbringing--they may even deeply believe it is better--the way they live. So long as they have their social network there, reinforcing the culture, making it stick.

But I wish these youngsters a healthy jolt to their still-fluid ability to believe and chose--to let them recognize what a gift their youth and this experience can be. They have been made to think telling the truth is "informing" on their elders and kin, and selling out the family and the Church. But maybe it's not to late for them to find a better way, recognize what was done to them, and make things right for themselves. I'd like to think the villians' days are numbered.

[LisaL]

18. I don't have much trust into the ability of the state to take care of these

children.
We are talking about hundreds of children, who, if state has its way, will probably end up in foster care.
And we all have heard such wonderful stories about foster care.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. There may not be any good options, but surely you're not suggesting they go back to ........

..... being treated as cum receptacles for old men?

[LisaL]

31. If the state of TX has evidence that some men were having sex

with the girls below the age of consent, then the state of TX should arrest and charge these men.
I do not think these mothers are abusing their children.
And I don't understand why the state is not treating them as individual families either.

[FirstLight]

32. If you are a victim of abuse, then your children are in danger of

the same... It is common practice in CPS to "watch" a woman that has left a situation and check on the welfare of the kids for up to a year after the victim leaves the abuser, because of the high percentage of women who will return to the abuse, because they feel they have nowhere else to go, etc...

think about what these women have been trained to believe from their earliest memories. There was another post here that one of these women said they (the men? or would the women be forced to do it to their own babies?) will even basically "waterboard" an infant into submission... These are some sick fucks, and child molstation is just the tip of the iceberg. The women will need "de-programming" and therapy and may still never be able to manage in "our world" because of years/ a lifetime of indoctrintion.

I was a victim of DV and left after 3 years ... it took me statistically a very short time to get out and make it stick...but I still was brainwashed enough to doubt my actions, think maybe I over reacted and should go back and try to make it work, etc... the psychological domination is very strong. Even 4 years later, I am still finding myself run up against walls in my thoughts that are negative thought patterns which he had me believeing... so let's give these poor folks some compassion and pray for the truth to come out and these men to be held accountable. This is not about religious freedom, it is a front to practice open misogyny and rape and prositution, etc...

just my .02

[LisaL]

33. I really don't get it. I don't know if you have children, but would

you then argue that CPS should have removed your children from you because you were a victim of abuse?
If it's a common practice for CPS to make sure the women did not go back with abuser, why exactly this should be any different?
If the state has evidence that any of the men have abused children, why exactly shouldn't the state do the same thing that you yourself admit is a common practice?

[FirstLight]

34. What I am saying is tht they will watch to make sure you don't go back

to the abuser... because if you do, the kids are in danger. is that clearer?

and yes I have three kids and I saved us all before it was too late and never went back! My youngest was 6 mos old, but I couldn't wait any longer to run...

[LisaL]

35. And why exactly shouldn't the state do the same thing here?

You admit it's common practice to watch the women. The children obviously are not removed.
Why should this be different?

[FirstLight]

36. Because in my case, I left the abuser...

These women obviousy have no intention to leave, so the children must be removed

[LisaL]

37. How about removing the abusers, assuming the state

actually has evidence of abuse?

[FirstLight]

38. That is one I am not sure of..unles it has to do with the

sticky widget of the religious compound stuff...?

My abuser was never removed, because I was too afraid to press charges... perhaps that is what's missing here? no charges pressed by the wives, so the state has to ferret out the mess on their own?

and Texas could have different laws than CA?

I dunno, but I certainly wish I could get MY hands on them for a few minutes..i'd show them how many feel about raping a young girl!

[LisaL]

39. If something illegal is done, state can press the charges.

In a criminal case, it's state vs. the accused.

[drmeow]

43. This is a chronic problem with CPS

They remove the victim from the home, not the abuser. They do it because they want to protect the victim but it makes the victim feel like they are the one being punished while the abuser gets to stay with the family. They can't arrest the abuser and keep him or her in jail indefinitely so the only way they see to protect the child is to remove the child. Its a f**ked up system in a f**ked situation and I don't have any solutions - but it is not unique to this situation.

[vixengrl]

28. Giving a sixteen-year old girl to an older man

to treat as a wife or concubine is a certain horror story of their culture.


I know there are stories of neglect, and worse, in the foster care system--people are willing to accept $ from the system to supposedly take care of a kid, and then do no such thing. I know our system is imperfect, and the children are many. But where there is reason to believe that there is a pattern of abuse and enforced secrecy, they are laying the bet down, and I think it's rational to do so, that they will not face *worse* consequences in the foster system.

It's unfortunate, and I agree it's a crappy set-up. And the most heartbreaking thing of all is the separation they will face from a society where everyone knew everyone, to a place where they mistrust everyone and everything. And of couse the separation from their own families, whom they loved, even through abuse. I'd hope they have the sense to locate these youngsters where they at least all have contact with one another, and if abuse is disproved--

It's just that I don't think it will be. And I hate that I don't, and I hate that there could be a way of life so indisposed to letting children (girl children) grow, become adult, make choices...and bad as the foster system is, denying them the right not to be forceably married, abused, raped, made to have children, just seems like a more important concern to me. I think they might still do better outside the culture--just so they know what the choices are. Just so they see what life outside the cult is.

And I would give a major "duh" to any official who does not ensure these youngsters, in particular, are given every possible hearing for their concerns and problems.