Do you believe in magic?

[atommom]

Psychologists and anthropologists have typically turned to faith healers, tribal cultures or New Age spiritualists to study the underpinnings of belief in superstition or magical powers. Yet they could just as well have examined their own neighbors, lab assistants or even some fellow scientists. New research demonstrates that habits of so-called magical thinking — the belief, for instance, that wishing harm on a loathed colleague or relative might make him sick — are far more common than people acknowledge.

These habits have little to do with religious faith, which is much more complex because it involves large questions of morality, community and history. But magical thinking underlies a vast, often unseen universe of small rituals that accompany people through every waking hour of a day.

The appetite for such beliefs appears to be rooted in the circuitry of the brain, and for good reason. The sense of having special powers buoys people in threatening situations, and helps soothe everyday fears and ward off mental distress. In excess, it can lead to compulsive or delusional behavior. This emerging portrait of magical thinking helps explain why people who fashion themselves skeptics cling to odd rituals that seem to make no sense, and how apparently harmless superstition may become disabling.

The brain seems to have networks that are specialized to produce an explicit, magical explanation in some circumstances, said Pascal Boyer, a professor of psychology and anthropology at Washington University in St. Louis. In an e-mail message, he said such thinking was "only one domain where a relevant interpretation that connects all the dots, so to speak, is preferred to a rational one."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/23/health/psychology/23magic.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

[Chemical Bill]

1. I believe in quantum physics.

Quantum physics is reeling from the implications of the fact that an observer has a measurable effect on that which (s)he is observing. The point here is that this could explain "magic".

I believe in gravity, can anyone tell me the true nature of gravity?(it exhibits characteristics of pure energy, and other characteristics of pure matter). My point with this is that I believe in things that are common to us all, but nobody really understands.

Bill

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. But that 'measurable effect' is down at the atomic level

and that's a fundamental part of quantum physics. Expecting that to scale up to something at the human level is like expecting one coin toss to get repeated a trillion times.

[Chemical Bill]

43. Sorry...

I disagree with your analogy. You are certainly welcome to your opinion on the scalability of the observer effect.

Bill

[greyl]

49. That's not opinion, it's absolute fact. nt

[Chemical Bill]

51. You mean it has a high probability?

I disagree, but I'm willing to look at your evidence.

Bill

[JuniperLea]

18. I believe in things that are common to us all, but nobody really understands

I believe all those things are magic.

;)

Once we know what they are and how they work, they are still magic:)

[midnight]

28. HI Bill this sounds facinating. What is quantum physics. I only

took one physics class in college, and loved it.

[Chemical Bill]

44. Well...

you could take several more chemistry and physics classes, but I suggest you get a hold of the DVD "What The Bleep Do We Know?". When you finish watching and are as excited about the possibilities as I am, there are books by many of the interviewees.

Bill

[Beelzebud]

67. If you want to know about Ramtha's cult, get that movie.

If you want to know about the basics of particle physics, get a book by Brian Greene, or Michio Kaku.

[Chemical Bill]

72. Do you have specific titles to recommend? n/t

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ravenseye]

113. agreed

[northzax]

130. as Richard Feynman would say

"if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quamtum mechanics."

it's like string theory, there are what, 50-100 people in the world who actually understand what is going on at the forefront of research in the field? sure, I've read Brian Greene, and watched his PBS special, and I'm pretty smart, but these people operate on a mathematical and theoretical plane that is long past me (and if anyone wants to compare chops, I dropped a 780 on my math SATs, in the 8th grade and took calculus BC as a freshman in highschool, so i'm in the top few percent anyway) it was when i got past calculus into this stuff that I realized I was way out of my depth. I can try to explain to people what someone told me about quantum mechanics, or string theory, but I don't pretend to understand it when the best mathmeticians and physicists in the world don't understand it.

[pitohui]

39. you don't know what quantum physics is

you say Quantum physics is reeling from the implications of the fact that an observer has a measurable effect on that which (s)he is observing

all that proves is you don't know anything about physics, far from "reeling from the implications," this is a fundamental posit of quantum physics which we've known about since the 1930s

nothing to do w. magic except where charlatans and liars try to pretend this is somehow something odd


you say -- I believe in gravity, can anyone tell me the true nature of gravity?(it exhibits characteristics of pure energy, and other characteristics of pure matter). My point with this is that I believe in things that are common to us all, but nobody really understands.

isaac newton told you the fundamental nature of gravity, i am sorry that you don't understand such a fundamental law of nature, but those who are even high school educated in physics do understand it

learn a little calculus, come back, and try again

[Chemical Bill]

46. Nice insults.

The posit that we have known about since the thirties is not what we are reeling from. It is the implications that are being debated as we speak. You might want to read "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters".

Issac Newton told me the effect of gravity, he did not tell me the fundamental nature or cause of that effect. So is gravity energy or matter?

I remember a poster from the "National Lampoon" years ago. It had a naked girl dancing on a beach, saying "I dig guys who do calculus". That's why I was one course away from a math minor when I got my chemistry degree.

Anything else?

Bill

[greyl]

47. Zukav knew what he was doing when he wrote that book.

Unfortunately, he was being selfish. (contrary to his advice in Seat of the Soul, for example)
Now, he's making money hand over fist with his Omega Institute.
I really used to respect the guy, but I was ignorant.

[Chemical Bill]

50. More insults...

have some respect for yourself! ;-)

I like Omega, I went to a weekend with Tom Brown Jr.
http://www.trackerschool.com/
And one with Brugh Joy.
http://www.brughjoy.com/

Bill

[greyl]

53. I'm coming from a place of authentic power.

People who market bullshit to gullible people in order to line their own pockets with lucre deserve to be called on it.
Consider it Karma, if you like.

edit: ( btw, "authentic power" is a Seat of the Soul term. Inside comment. ;) )

[Chemical Bill]

57. I'm willing to entertain the possibility.

>People who market bullshit to gullible people in order to line their own pockets with lucre deserve to be called on it.

Are you willing to entertain the possibility that there could be some good that comes out of what you obviously believe is bad? I paid a lot of money to people who led workshops that some labeled "cults". I increased my income by a factor of ten, am much more successful in relationships, and am very happy with myself. My money was well invested. I also recognize that the people running the workshops had their own issues and problems, and I don't think that they are "God". I feel bad for people who, to their own detriment, devote themselves to a person or a group. I just don't necessarily see it as evil on the part of the group leader(s).

Sorry, I don't know the Seat of the Soul stuff, good you explained it.

Bill

[greyl]

125. We could see good resulting from Any circumstance, couldn't we?

"Everything happens for a reason", so after the fact, we create a method of dealing with emotional pain that lifts it out of the depths of our inadequacy, to such heights as being prescribed by the very entire Universe.

The ends you cite could have been achieved, and probably surpassed, by means forged with real stuff.

[greyl]

45. Have you seen "What the Bleep Do We Know?" ?

If so, that could be the problem. ;)
It's full of baseless extrapolations to philosophy from quantum mechanics, and is misleading a lot of people all in the name of earning J.Z. Knight more millions. She's a charlatan just like Jerry Falwell, only with a different target market. At least one of the physicists in the film (David Albert) is totally pissed at the film makers for how they took his comments out of context to mislead the audience.

[Chemical Bill]

48. I'll be happy to look at any specifics about the film you have.

Generalizations like you have don't convince me of anything. I understand that David Albert is pissed. I could leave his comments out of the film and still get much from it. Same with Ramtha.

Personally, I follow the instructions of a friend of mine, Carolyn W. Casey, who said: "Believe nothing, entertain possibilities".

Bill

[greyl]

52. Entertaining possibilities is wonderful and healthy.

Entertaining them beyond their meaningful welcome is not.
You can't really remove Ramtha (J.Z.Knight) from the film, because it was produced as propaganda for her cult.
There are many critical analyses of the film on the web. If you're open to entertaining the possibility that the film is designed to mislead people with blatant falsehoods and illogical extrapolations, I'm sure you can create a path leading to enlightenment on the issue. ;)

[Chemical Bill]

61. It occurred to me...

that the article in the OP came from Judith Miller's old employer, so it must be a bullshit article.
:evilgrin:

Bill

[Beelzebud]

63. How about a quote from the physicist in the film?

I was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actual views about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, at great length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had I known that I would have been so radically misrepresented in the movie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed. --David Albert, Columbia University

The movie credits Ramtha. A 35,000 year old Atlantian warrior.

Ramtha? Please...

Here's a good site that examines this movie: http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/04/what_the_bleep_.html

Or try this one: http://miniver.blogspot.com/2004/12/what-indeed.html

One of the featured speakers in this cult propaganda piece, Jeffery Satinover, "cures" homosexuals as a day job and is quoted as saying this: "What it comes down to is that liberalism causes brain damage. Liberals are not just unwilling to engage in rational thought, they are, after just so long, incapable of it."

Don't believe it? Read it at his website: http://www.satinover.com/liberalism.htm

Don't be fooled by psuedo-scientific bullshit...

[Chemical Bill]

71. We talked about David Albert.

I am unwilling to dismiss the entire movie because of any one part of it. I am unwilling to say that since Satinover is a nutjob then the movie must all be wrong.

I was impressed by the experiment of the electrons through two slits. Do you have a refutation of that?

Bill

[greyl]

97. There's nothing uniquely educational about the movie at all.

Not in the least.
The wave particle duality is nothing new.
The marketers of that propaganda are preying on people who don't know any better, unfortunately.

[greyl]

128. * uniquely entertaining though, it is. nt

[Cleita]

96. Ramtha is an entity who is supposedly channeled by a woman

who is called J. D. Knight. I agree she is a charlatan and Ramtha has made her very rich. He used to be a stone age warrior. I see she has changed his biography to call him an Atlantean.

It doesn't mean that Quantum physics isn't a possible good scientific theory that needs scientific minds looking for proof through a scientific method.

[Chemical Bill]

92. Oops, Caroline W. Casey, Carolyn is my mother.

Edit to add link:
http://www.visionaryactivism.com/

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. What "magic" do you claim could be explained by quantum physics? (n/t)

[Chemical Bill]

59. How about reiki?

http://www.reiki.org/

Nurses and health professionals can get continuing education credits for studying reiki. That means it has been demonstrated to be effective to the governing bodies that handle such things (is that the AMA?). Reiki is hands-on energy work, especially working with the chakras. I've used it for years. The fact that an electron can be in one half of a barbell shaped orbital, or in the other half of that orbital, but never in the plane of the nucleus, which separates the halves, could be scaled up to explain energy jumping from my hands to the person beneath my hands. Of course, that's never been proven or disproven.

Bill

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. Energy jumps from your hands to the person beneath your hands anyway

Infra-red radiation. So why are you invoking a branch of physics which doesn't talk about energy transfer on this much larger scale of millimetres, when you have one that is actually proven to have an effect on that scale?

Electron orbitals are worked out from equations. What equations are involved in this transfer of energy you claim happens specially in reiki? Why would quantum physics tell you why it happens when one person's hands come close to a body, but not someone else? All you've said so far is "there is a small space, on the order of nanometres, where, in certain atomic configurations, electrons cannot be found. Therefore, I believe massively larger amounts of an energy I don't understand can transfer from one human to another, on a scale millions of times larger." (I assume you don't understand the energy, because you don't appear to subscribe to the idea from the link you gave that "Reiki can be defined as a non-physical healing energy made up of life force energy that is guided by the Higher Intelligence", because that has nothing to do with electron orbitals).

I have no idea who in a hospital thinks education credits should be given for studying 'reiki' (though I note the first place I found doing it, UC Davis, calls it a touching therapy; so that seems to place it in the realms of accupuncture or massage, with a placebo effect a major aspect to consider). If they couldn't give me good evidence for why they think it's beneficial, I'd go to another doctor or nurse.

[Chemical Bill]

82. So you don't like my speculation.

IR radiation is not recognized as having the same healing traits of reiki. Placebo effect is real, but I don't think that it explains the effect of reiki. I would hope that you study reiki with an open mind. Expecting an explination for the process, rather than the results, is what I tried to address with my previous comments about gravity. I don't have any studies involving reiki at my fingertips, but I did point out the medical recognition in the hopes that you would trust that such studies have been done. I will admit that I have done reiki on cancer patients who died anyway.

Electron orbitals are based on probability. There is a 100% probability that two electrons will be found in either side of the particular orbital I have described, and a zero % probability that either electron will be found in between. If anyone can explain how the electrons get from one side to the other without being in between, then I think one may have a case that speculation has no place here.

I believe that you are welcome to choose your doctor. I personally wouldn't want a doctor that doesn't believe in miracles. Does that make me wrong?

Bill

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. There's a total disconnect between what you believe about reiki, and quantum physics

To call what you said "speculation" is being too generous. All you've done is say "here's something surprising, and counter-intuitive; here's something in a completely different field that I can't describe, let alone explain. Maybe the first explains the second". Given that quantum physics deals with known particles and forces, why should it have a macroscopic effect that is peculiar to human beings who want it to work?

All you've done is use the nice buzzword "quantum", which needs more thought than most people have been able to give to it to understand, to try to imply there's a scientific explanation for reiki.

[Chemical Bill]

90. I'm willing to entertain that possibility.

>There's a total disconnect between what you believe about reiki, and quantum physics

Could be.

>Given that quantum physics deals with known particles and forces....

That's just the opposite of my point. Quantum physics is revealing how little we actually know about these particles and forces. Therefore, I feel comfortable saying that it shows that we could know just as little about the macro world, and it's forces.

>All you've done is use the nice buzzword "quantum", which needs more thought than most people have been able to give to it to understand....

My point is that we are not able to begin to understand, and most quantum physicists I have heard would admit that.


>to try to imply there's a scientific explanation for reiki.

I don't have an explanation for reiki either. That's what ties them together in my view. I shouldn't have used reiki as an example of something that quantum physics causes or explains. That was my fault and my mistake. I don't have an example of something that quantum physics causes or explains, in answer to your previous post. I only have an example of something equally unexplainable that some might call "magic".


Bill

[DrunkenMaster]

98. absolutely correct!

Far too many people have seen garbage like "What the bleep do we know?" and taken it to be hard science when it is in fact nothing but metaphysical garbage of the wort variety.

Great post!

[AngryAmish]

101. You can get a degree in chiropractic and be state licensed

It doesn't mean it works.

[Cleita]

94. I think quantum theory as strange as it seems could be plausible.

There is so much we don't know about our universe. Years ago before the microscope people did not know about bacteria and protozoa because they couldn't access them through their five senses, yet they knew something was there, especially when plagues came around.

I think we will unravel the mysteries of quantum theory in the same way, when we develop the instruments and means to do so.

[greyl]

124. Quantum theory (Quantum mechanics) could be plausible?

Quantum theory could be plausible?

It's more than plausible, it's a demonstrably accurate analogue of how particular aspects of our shared reality behave. The predictive ability of quantum mechanics is unprecedented in human history, but only with regard to the subjects of quantum mechanics.

David Albert: "...the interesting thing about physics, is that it is a genuinely new and novel way of trying to come to grips with the world. I think the experimental method which is important to physics, is a very different business than the method of revelation, or the method of meditation. I don't think it's true, that, for example, adherents of Buddhism could imagine changing their beliefs based on the outcomes of some experiments people do with electrons."

[Cleita]

132. My latest reading states that other physicists are challenging

quantum theory with other theories that aren't quite as far out there and mathematically still fit in with the concepts that they are trying to explain with these theories like how gravity works.

Stay tuned. I'm just an outside observer here waiting for the Einsteins to come up with a single theory they all agree on instead of various conflicting ones.

[enki23]

104. and every particle in the universe is an "observer"

there's nothing whatsoever special about being a human "observer" or a so-called "sentient observer". the universe doesn't bend to the whims of Homo sapiens's action potentials.

[northzax]

129. thank you

you'd think no one read Heisenberg anymore.

[Quantess]

126. I love "string theory"

about infinite possibilities all coexeisting, and sometimes intermingling.

[Warren DeMontague]

2. I know that when the music is groovy

it makes me feel happy, like an old time movie.

[Chemical Bill]

60. I had that earworm in my head all night. n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. In a young girl's heart

and all the rest--now I'll have the Lovin' Spoonful playing in my head the rest of the day--much preferable to Bush. Thanks!

[mongo]

5. You beat me to it!

[BlooInBloo]

14. You beat me to saying "You beat me to it!" ! Sigh.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. damn...I just saw this thread and KNEW this would be here n/t

[karlrschneider]

4. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I believe that's from Asimov. It's true in any case.

[Wizard777]

7. Actually the result of majic. Some how the word has lost it's true meaning.

Magic, actually Majic (give me a break here Alister), means art of the Maji. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. But it covers a wide spectrum of arts from painting to astronomy. This was part of Zoroastrian Alchemy. Zoroaster divided the church into two parts. The Parsis (Religion)and the Ilm-i-Khshnoom (Science.) This was also part of the ancient Persian educational system or Caste system. It survives and is in use to this very day. Aprentise, Journeyman, and Master. Also Associate of Arts, Bachelor, and Master. The most famous of the Maji was the triumvirate council the Ilm-i-Khshnoom sent to Bethlehem to find the new king and perform the Navhote. The Magus Balthazar, The Magus Melchior, and the Magus Caspar.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. I think that was Arthur C. Clarke.

Could be wrong.

[JackRiddler]

10. It's Clarke

n

[karlrschneider]

11. Sorry, couldn't remember. Thanks for the correction!

:D

[pitohui]

40. it's from arthur c. clarke

asimov despised such fatuity, an irony that the good atheist dies of hiv and the pedophile lives to a ripe old age surrounded by houseboys

proof enough to that god, if she exists, doesn't give a fuck about us

i'm tired of magic and of god, what storm has it turned aside lately?

[rman]

55. ...to those who don't understand it

[jgraz]

6. Sure, but did you ever have to make up your mind?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Nope.

Chemtrails on the other hand...

[no_hypocrisy]

12. I was sub-teaching a 2nd grade and was doing reading comprehension

with six kids. I asked if if people really had magic powers. A little boy piped up and exclaimed, "I have magic!" Feigning interest, I responded, "Yeah, where's your magic?" He shut me up with his response: It's in my heart.

I still love that answer.

[Wizard777]

20. The Wiz gives him an A+ in Magic . That's exactly where it starts.

[BlooInBloo]

15. It takes a special sort of person to believe in magic - we call them "children".

[KittyWampus]

66. Actually children are indeed much better at using their Imaginations which is what Magic is

to a very large degree about. Using ones Imagination to shape ones environment.

The Materialists posting on this thread belittle the role of the Mind, Consciousness and the Imagination.

It's really the allegorical equivalent of Men denying Women any power.

The only thing of consequence to the Materialist is the Material World and this is a big part of what's killing humanity at the moment.

Too many here deride those of us who dedicate ourselves to learning how the Mind, Consciousness and Imagination works and how to use them to improve ones environment .

Which is really pathetic, especially since those Intangibles play an important role in Science, Technology and how we shape our worlds regardless of what Reductionists think.

[Bill McBlueState]

69. how mind, consciousness, and imagination work

I really admire the researchers who study how mind, consciousness, and imagination work.

What I can't stand are people who invent feel-good answers to these questions and try to pass them off as fact on the gullible. It's like they're stealing the glory from the people who are doing the hard work to solve these mysteries.

[KittyWampus]

70. For instance- Doctors who think healing a patient is entirely about finding the right drug

"Here! Take this pill and you'll get well."

It feels so good to put ones health in the hands of an expert. It's so easy. And there's so much money to be made dispensing those pills.

While I do not deny the very real benefit of drugs in healing (my 2 brothers will need antipsychotics for life), it's a shame so much of medical science focuses on finding drug cures.

And totally ignores the importance of those intangibles like the the Mind and Imagination.

The placebo effect does occur. And placebos work more often than randome chance. Imagine what would happen if Science spent even a fraction of the time and money and effort investigating HOW the placebo effect works and harnassing that.

Of course, it might negate the need for a lot of the drugs sold today.

My brothers need their meds, but the freaking medical establishment doesn't bother with stupid things like behavioral therapy, biofeedback, meditation. It is just so sad.

[Wizard777]

78. Magic means Art of the Magi. Wizard = Vizir = Seer of light Occult = unseen or hidden

Just like the pseudo magic Presidigitation. Once you know how it works it cease to be magic and becomes science.

[KittyWampus]

95. I'd say once you master the science it then becomes 'art' and magic once again

:)

[WHAT]

111. cryingshame, in response to an idea you put forth in 66 above...

"It's really the allegorical equivalent of Men denying Women any power."

I've ruminated about this before, but don't have any clear ideas on it. I wonder about it because it seems that almost all the cultures I know have a history of "magical" people I categorize as witches. I'm no expert and don't know if this is universal, it just seems so prevalent. If that is the case, I contrast it with our ideas of God. When atommom compares religion and magic, thusly as, "These habits(magic) have little to do with religious faith, which is much more complex because it involves large questions of morality, community and history.", it's like proposing God as the first principal and not the other way around. Then the authority of God is transfered unto the state. Just that act, the delegation of authority, sets the tone of society so that personal power, witchery, is made illegitimate. Society must be accommodating of God, not the other way around. Geeeze, I think I went off on a tangent. To come back to point, if ideas of witchery were universal, God wouldn't allow them! What does that say. If there is any truth in magic, I don't think it can be suppressed.

I "know" there is something more to the world than anyone can name.

[KittyWampus]

115. Religion often seems to involve some sort of authoritarian person who

mediates between the divine presence and the laypeople.

Very much a heirarchy. And often about power and control over the people. It's much less about Self realization and individuation.

Mystics and also Witches seem to practise a more direct sort of spirituality.

[muriel_volestrangler]

118. Wizard is an Indo-European word; Vizir comes from an Arabic word

and they are completely unrelated.

'Wizard' comes from the same Indo-European root as 'wise', with the meaning of 'know'; this is indeed related to Indo-European words with the root 'vis'="see" such as 'visible'. There's no idea of 'light' here; but there is the idea of seeing and knowledge being related.

'Vizier', and its alternate spelling, derive from an Arabic word originally meaning 'porter' - which meant "one who bears the burden of government".

[Matariki]

16. Do you believe that reality is only limited to what you have experienced so far?

[shadowknows69]

19. Whatever the explanation for them

I've had experiences that could only be described as magickal or supernatural to my comprehension.

[Matariki]

22. me too, as have many people.

but SOME people tend to believe that their own limited experience is THE only definition of reality. These are the people who mock others for 'belief' in magick. I'm not gonna argue with these people, it's pointless.

There are things you know, there are things you know you don't know, and there then there are the the things you don't know that you don't know. You know?

[Bill McBlueState]

23. who believes this?

Does anyone actually believe that "their own limited experience is THE only definition of reality"? To believe such a thing, you'd have to deny the existence of Africa unless you had personally been to Africa.

It sort of sounds like you're setting up a strawman to make it easier for you to criticize anyone who doesn't believe in magic.

[WePurrsevere]

32. I agree.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

Just because there is no "science" that can prove something is real at this point in time doesn't mean that someday, perhaps very far down the road, it won't be proven as fact. Go back almost 500 years and try to tell scientists Galileo Galilei's day about some of the amazing technology that we live with today. Try to tell them about the atom and nano technology. Try to tell them of the reality of machines that fly to the moon with living human beings; tell them of machines that could fit into a small portfolio that could calculate mathematical figures in seconds, access information from anywhere in the world and talk to a person that lives thousands of miles away without leaving one's own home.

What we know now is an ocean away from what we knew even 200 years ago... what we know now is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what we'll know 200 years from now. There's so much that we don't know yet and may never know...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Shakespeare)

:)

[greyl]

54. Correct, but the problem begins when people say they know when they do not.

That is a trait of charlatans and magical thinkers, not of science, typically.
Science explores the unknown, pseudoscience assumes knowledge where none exists, and even when contrary knowledge exists.

[KittyWampus]

68. Kineta, it's like trying to explain the existance of Air and Land to a fish. Some people

are incapable of grasping that they exist in Water and that other levels of existance exist.

Or it's like Plato's Cave. These people are chained to their darkness. Sadly, the Earth is suffering from their lack of Vision.

Sadly, a fish denies the existance of other levels until he gets caught on a hook and ends up being a meal.

[greyl]

99. That's a valid analogy for some things, but not this.

You're blaming your lack of scientific evidence on the people who point out your lack of scientific evidence, while simultaneously trying to give credence to your magical belief using ... science!

[AngryAmish]

105. A mudskipper is a fish

They know what land and air is.

[DrunkenMaster]

103. then I suggest you pick up a Physics textbook

it might help.

[Marie26]

21. No

But I still stopped in the middle of saying how easy it was to move a piece of furniture, cause it occured to me that I might jinx it. I guess we're all wired to think that way.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. All Magic Is, Is A Scientific Event For Which Scientists Have Not Yet Solved Completely.

Certain things that some would say are 'magic' have already actually been solved by science. But the rest of the things that seem to be magical are in fact logical scientific events that just simply may not have yet exposed themselves to established explanation.

So no, no magic. But it's cool when strange shit happens anyway.

[The Straight Story]

25. So basically: Magic is the symptom and science is the cause :)

We just ain't got there yet.

That is why things like EVP fascinate me :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. Oh Absolutely.

I find all of that shit absolutely fascinating. But then I find already established scientific principles to be equally fascinating as well. I guess one can say that even behind all these established scientific principles with solid explanations, it's still magical as hell that some of this chemical or molecular shit happens the way it does anyway. Some of it just fascinates the fuck out of me.

I'm fascinated by EVP too actually. But I'd consider that more 'spiritual' than 'magical', I guess.

[atommom]

27. Molecular and developmental biology is pretty damned magical too.

The supernatural doesn't have to be brought into it at all ... the magic is in the way the parts work together.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Didn't I Kinda Say As Much?

Wasn't sure if you were agreeing or making a point you didn't realize I had already made.

But I do agree with you on the point you agreed with me on. :)

[atommom]

30. I was just agreeing with you, dammit.

:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. LOL Ok.

:)

[The Straight Story]

31. Indeed

And I think a lot of the early 'magical' folks (shamans, priests, etc) were the scientists of their day - even if they did not know it and they were wrong on things. They kept trying new solutions to problems and finding ways to make things work (hence a lot of the early astrological stuff, some of which still stands today and seemed pretty darned accurate).

[stellanoir]

35. okay Einstein. . .

solve this magical riddle. . ."Ooga, Booga Smooga, Wooga."

Yup I'm cyber stalking you. :hi: LOL

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. LOL But

That was borne from the brilliance of a mind of a higher level times past Rosicrucian Order F.R.C..

Dare I try to solve the enigma from such origin?

Oh.... wait...

[stellanoir]

38. No "bout adout it" LOL

& awwww . . .random speculation can always be wildly entertaining.

Oh. . .wait. . .

I'm waiting no longer for the world to change. Gonna post a KILLER of a OBSW thread tomorrow.

Pm me if you want a preview.

Still havin' great fun. Hope you are too.

[WePurrsevere]

34. Almost 14 yrs ago that basic line is what brought my now DH & I together so....

yes, I do :D although admittedly in more ways then that one... but we spell that kind Majik. :)

[Marr]

36. No. Magical thinking is for children and fools.

[lovuian]

41. My friend is a Magician or to be more perfect Alchemist

This is magic

He thinks of organic molecules puts them in his magic pot
and creates
a new substance never created before

then he patents it LOL!!!

but remember the MAGIC came from his mind

thats magic people and I believe in our minds being capable of tremendous feats

Its magic when a woman has a child

think about it making of another human being is creation thats magic

magic for me is the manipulation of nature and Man has that ability in his mind and heart

We are tremendous creatures of incredible potential if left alone to create
Thats why Science and scientists are being told shut up

Magic can't be destroyed its all around us

[atommom]

42. IMO telling science to shut up would be a tragic mistake

since part of its job is elucidating the things that seem magic to us. In my mind, this doesn't take away from the wonder of the universe ... far from it. What your friend is doing may seem like magic, but it is science as well.

[Az]

64. Magic = Supernatural = Unnatural

What you are describing is a person using an understanding of science to come up with an interaction between naturally occurring molecules and creating a further natural molecule. There is no magic there. Just reason, sciance, and nature.

[lovuian]

76. The magic is the person thought from his mind

MIND can produce amazing things

I never underestimate the power of the Mind

And my friend is trying to produce biofuels to help the oil crisis
working on BioDiesels

When man made fire they thought it was magic



And who said Magic wasn't natural???

Supernatural is definitely more the definition

or should we say paranormal

[Wizard777]

77. Magic = Metaphysical = Nature yet to be understood.

Human flight was once thought to be unatural. If God wanted man to fly he would have given us wings like the angels. Yet I don't know of anyone that lets this unatural defiance of gravity keep them off an airplane. I've even flew with the Amish.

[Wizard777]

79. Christian science and scientology is neoalchemy. Religion + Science = Alchemy

[treestar]

58. Yes, though in the sense that whatever it is will someday

be explained - it is just not understood yet.

[Az]

62. Its more than just that: Knowledge and Control

We are born with no knowledge and no control. As we grow and learn we come to understand (knowledge) just what things we have control over and what we don't. While we are learning how to control our body we learn that we cannot control the world around us directly as we control our body. But this does not mean that we do not try. We learn our limits but we never stop trying to overcome them. The basic instinct to try and control things will always remain with us. Even when we learn that we cannot control things.

It is this basic drive that can be found behind a lot of beliefs beyond just magical thinking. Conspiracy theories. Gods. Supersticions. These are all about attempting to either gain control, discovering knowledge, or gaining access to those who do have control and knowledge.

[atommom]

117. Good points. I wish sometimes that we lived in the Star Trek universe,

just because I'd love to know whether other sentient species have these tendencies too.

[Lilith Velkor]

65. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side

...but they help sometimes.

[Wizard777]

81. Million and billion of dollars in tech can be foiled , ironically enough, with

a Magic Marker or oil well fire.

[Lilith Velkor]

84. Now that's magick

Marckers! ;) :thumbsup:

(edit: puncktuation)

[The Traveler]

73. Danger, Will Robinson

What we call "science" is that body of knowledge which is developed through the use of the "scientific method". That method involves a series of steps which we all supposedly learn in junior high school. The three big steps are a) selection of a phenomenon or subject of study b) development of an hypothesis and c) the design and performance of an experiment.

The experiment is designed not to "prove" the hypothesis but rather to reject it. To summarize in plain language, if the item under study does not behave in the predicted way under a controlled change in conditions, then I can reject the hypothesis. Further, I must be able to identify and control all pertinent conditions so that you can repeat the experiment and achieve similar results. Otherwise my test is flawed.

High quality hypotheses hold up under a wide range of conditions. Newton does pretty well, for example, until one starts looking at "near field" gravitational effects of stellar masses. Newton does not predict light bending, so a new set of hypotheses are required to deal with that range of conditions. Enter Einstein.

There are a couple of implications pertinent to this thread, I think. First, any hypothesis that cannot be tested by experiment is outside the scientific method. As an example, I hold forth "intelligent design". Since no experiment or observation or discovery of evidence can be conceived that would conclusively prove the absence of intelligence guiding the processes of evolution, the notion cannot be approached through the scientific method. It may be "true", but it cannot be "science".

Second, a scientific approach to certain phenomena is difficult if not impossible due to the inability to identify and control all the pertinent conditions, or even determine when one has successfully done so. Parapsychology is a very slippery subject for this reason. Certain observers have obtained what look like "definite signals" in their data. The problem really has been that reproduction of those results has been spotty at best. Is that a problem with the design of the experiment or is the apparent signal spurious? How, scientifically, can we tell conclusively?

"Scientific thinkers" tend to believe (and that is an article of faith) that all phenomena worth considering (value judgment) are approachable by the scientific method. That's one way to go, but it does not address quite a bit of human experience. It is also an arrogant position in a very real respect ... imposing both an article of faith and a judgment on the spectrum of human experience. We don't really want a society dominated exclusively by scientific thought ... artists and poets don't live there, for example. A society dominated by magical or faith driven thought is probably equally tragic in consequence, because for many faith requires rejection of scientific knowledge and, let us face it, for a wide range of things, scientific knowledge is really useful.

I myself am more comfortable with the following position. As a human, I have a little brain. The universe is probably larger and more complex than I can ever hope to understand. I will die leaving a lot of unfulfilled question marks in my diary. I can learn a lot through scientific study. I can learn a lot through meditation. But I will probably never successfully reconcile completely the results of those experiences.

To paraphrase Ranier Rilke, most the of really big questions have no answers, so we have to learn to love the questions anyway.

[Blue-Jay]

74. It's not real unless you spell it with a 'k' on the end.

Magick......Now that's the real shit!

;)

[Wizard777]

80. Sorry Mr. Crowley, by the original Arabic. It's Majic

But Crowley was not without merrit. To a certain degree he did fool the people with magick. Did you know that durring WWII Edward Alexander Crowley AKA Aliester was a mole? He was a double agent working for MI-5 and OSI. The Abbey at Thelema was also a spy post. He was Spying on Mousolini and Pius XII. Pius XII was making deals with the devil and that devil wasn't Aliester.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. No, it came to English via the Greek

using a gamma as the third letter, so "magic" is more authentic. The Oxford English Dictionary mentions Crowley as popularising the "ick" ending in the 20th century, but gives, as early endings in English, "ik" and "yk" (both Chaucer), "ique", "yque", "yke", "ika", "ict", "icke", "ick", and finally "ic", from Gibbon in 1781.

And the original was, of course, Persian, not Arabic.

[Wizard777]

107. True Avestan if you want to get ultra technical. n/t

[DrunkenMaster]

102. Magic, Majic, Magick: who cares?

You're arguing over how many horns an average jackalope has...

[Wizard777]

108. It's two. Everybody knows that. Actually Majic is real.

Although applying it to the deceptive art of presidigitation has taken majic into the relm of psychosis.

[KittyWampus]

116. I had no idea of that history. Is it documented or apocryphal?

[Wizard777]

123. About as documented as any other mole. The only one I'm aware of

Is the reporting of the Japaneese Submarine in the Baltimore Harbor. Apparently Aliester was there making a dead drop and saw the periscope. He reported it. Aliester has soem ties to Maryland. He came here to try to get personal loans from H.L. Menken and his aprentise Noman Mudd Droped out of the Naval Academy to study magic with him at the Abbey. Norman went insane. When the master says don't touch the black magic books. you don't touch them. It happened to me once. They all learn how real it is the hard way.

Moles tend to fall through the cracks. Each side considers them an agent of the other side. But by nationality he would be officially MI-5. He was an alli mole not an enemy mole. So he didn't exactly have to walk the tight rope.

[Wizard777]

83. The Government believes in Magic. Project: Stargate.

This was a two part project under the CIA and DOD. Teh CIA was investigating remote viewing and had some amazing suceesses with it. That part was being conducted in Virginia. The DOD part was conducted at Ft. Meade in Maryland. Thsi involved telepathy and astral travel(not interstellar like the TV show). Also some amazing successes. Although they shouldn't have sent telepathic invitations to join the program if they really wanted to keep it secret. That was just dumb.

[Lilith Velkor]

85. They didn't believe in telepathy until all those people showed up

Then they were like, "D'oh!"

The fact that one of them posted directions on the internet made it *real fun* to sort out. :banghead:

[Wizard777]

93. JM was devoured by the darkness we unleashed upon him. If they go there again.

Thier Psychonaught will be tossed into the abyss. No map can help them there. That I have promised them.

[Lilith Velkor]

109. Those aren't the droids you are looking for.

He'll go on about his business. Movin' right along...

[Wizard777]

112. CIA has been shut down. DOD is still continuing. We've know this for some time.

iShTAR gate or aSTARte gate
i hate and oh yes they do. At venomous levels.

btw, Welcome to Babel. Your towers have fallen and you are now lost in the great confussion.

[Lilith Velkor]

119. Shut down my ass - that shit's all been privatized.

Ask not for whom the wrecking ball swings...

[Wizard777]

121. Mc M's insight is not really a problem. But DOD part will bring damnation.

The comet cometh. LOL

[Lilith Velkor]

122. muahahahaha

Obey the Fist! :rofl:

[porphyrian]

86. If it was real, this administration would no longer exist. - n/t

[Wizard777]

91. It was Reagan/Bush Sr. Can you say skull and bones?

LOL I don't think it was an extention of the ole 612 (Gnostic Number of the Beast. 666 is Agnostic NOB)There was no Necromancy involved that we are currently aware of.

[porphyrian]

131. The Number of the Beast was the first Iron Maiden album I ever owned.

Actually, it was on cassette.

I didn't realize there were separate numbers-of-the-beast for Gnostic and Agnostic sensibilities. Can you explain the difference, or would that be asking you to write a novel?

[Kelly Rupert]

89. No. Certainly not.

Anyone who does is ignorant and deluded.

[DrunkenMaster]

100. People Want So Badly to Believe in Something - Anything!

Metaphysics seems to be the first place people jump to after they leave traditional religion: they have had it with fundamentalist dogma but they still require a belief system that gives them hope, provides a chance at an after life or the continuation of consciousness after death and gives them a sense of community and belonging.

It's sad that so many (even here at DU) are incapable of setting aside their desperation and longing and embrace the scientific paradigm (ie, catch up to at least the 1950s) that discards any system of understanding that cannot be proven empirically. Statements like "do you really believe that's all there is to life?" are logical fallacies of the most base and irresponsible sort and should be mocked at every opportunity.

The usual response is something along the lines of "well, faith gives people hope -- hope is never a bad thing!". My response is that yes, hope is a bad thing when it is baseless. We have a job to do -- it's called "waking up" -- and false hope in religious or magical idols keeps us from realizing exactly how late the hour has become. Our planet has reached a crisis of apocalyptic proportions due in a very large part to exactly this type of belief and behavior.

It's time to stop coddling ourselves, face the truth and do what we can to make this life, this planet, this existence the best one possible.

[Wizard777]

110. There is little room for agnosticism in Majic. It is an art of Gnosis.

Agnosticism is not without it's merrits. As I have told many people of many faiths. Faith or belief can be very powerful. But only when it leads to knowledge. Belief is a path and knowledge it's destnation. The only person that will lead you down a path of belief without it ever reaching Knowledge is a conman. ie: Bush, Cheney, Rove, and the WMD's. 100% pure belief and 0% Knowledge.

[liberal hypnotist]

114. Yes, Magic makes the world go round.

Try www.julianjaynessociety.org for a nice scientific well researched concept of the brain and magic.

[Buck Rabbit]

120. In A Young Girls Heart ..

How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll

Somebody take it >>>>

[133724]

127. God is alive & magic is loose on the world....

I seem to remember some one saying somenthing like:


"We must become the change we want to see.”


What is that but magic....


Who can become what they are not....


without magic....