The manufactured Hormuz incident with Iran should be investigated as an administration crime

[bigtree]

Iran Navy's view of Hormuz incident
http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?rpc=401&videoId=74141&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=TopNews&rpc=401

CBS’s Smith Wonders if Tape of US- Iran Naval Conflict Was Fake
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2008/01/10/cbs-s-smith-wonders-if-tape-u-s-iran-naval-conflict-was-fake

January 10, 2008 - 13:23 ET

At the top of Thursday’s CBS "Early Show," co-host Harry Smith questioned the authenticity of an audio tape of the confrontation between U.S. and Iranian ships on January 6:

We're going to try to re -- to deconstruct the Pentagon tapes just released of that hostile incident in the Strait of Hormuz. Iranian speedboats taunting a U.S. ship. A tape the Iranians are calling a hoax. There's something strange about the audio.

In the later segment on the issue, Smith talked to international security expert, Jeff McCausland, and again wondered if the Iranian hoax accusation had merit:

Iranian officials are calling this video a hoax, saying those voices sounded like they were recorded someplace else...As you have looked at this tape, listened to -- especially the English coming from the Iranians, does it ring authentic to you? Does it seem real?

[ingac70]

Hello!!

I thought the audio the US released sounded fake before Iran released theirs.

I've never heard a accent faked so badly.

[Joe Chi Minh]

1. They definitely splashed your warship! How can anyone fail to see that!

[GrahmMan]

2. As I said in another board

This incident happened, I have friends on the PORT ROYAL who have more or less confirmed it.

The recording "dicrepancy could very easily be attributed to another ship in the area fucking around on bridge to bridge, all of the queries conducted are done on CH 16, which everyone else in the area is on too. But when you are the CO and see the boats coming your way and dropping shit in the water, you arent going to take that chance that the threat may have been some asshole merchant fucking around.

[bigtree]

5. funny, a U.S. warship in THEIR waters

I'd think that it's the U.S. who should have to answer questions about their own provocation following Bush's threats against Iran he just made on his Mideast trip.

[GrahmMan]

6. Was not in their waters

The incident happened in an INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC SEPARATION SCHEME (you can look it up if you like)

Also it was 15 NM off the coast of Iran, 3 miles outside of territorial waters.

The navy followed procedure to the letter.

[bigtree]

8. it's more their waters than the province of the U.S

and the U.S., under Bush is deliberately goading Iran into some action they can use to justify an attack on the sovereign nation. That's more of a provocation than anything Iran has done.

The 'letter'?? What a crock of imperialistic bullshit.

[Zywiec]

10. International waters belong to some more than others?

That's an interesting concept.

:shrug:

[bigtree]

12. let's be real here and not hide behind all of the maritime technicalities

Bush administration stops threatening Iran and the “provocation” ends.

Does the Iranian navy have war ships off the U.S. coast? Who is actually being threatened and provoked? This is a dangerous game of escalation being played by this administration. It's expected, I suppose, that they hide behind technicalities in their intimidation game, but we (the American public) should know better about their motives and respond to the U.S. provocation with an understanding of the threat that IRAN feels from this administration.

[GrahmMan]

21. Law of the sea...

"Bush administration stops threatening Iran and the “provocation” ends"
They did this kind of piddly shit in the 80's and 90's too.

"Does the Iranian navy have war ships off the U.S. coast?"

Is the Iranian Navy conducting operations in Canada?
Can the Iranian Navy even reach the US coast, the answers to both questions is no.

"This is a dangerous game of escalation being played by this administration."
What? passing through the INTERNATIONAL strait like we do 100 times a month?

"I suppose, that they hide behind technicalities"
It is NOT A TECHINICALITY! It is a pretty fucking solid precept of international and admiralty law.

Read up and enjoy :)

http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/conven/unclospart3.html

[bigtree]

25. International 'law' is regularly ignored by this administration

except when it suits them -- justifying their military imperialism and aggression as a defense of our country's national security. Yet, they expect to hold Iran to that letter as the sovereign nation defends its own territorial integrity; albeit 3 miles outside of their waters. Would the U.S. tolerate such a breach -- such a provocation -- just outside of our own territory, in 'international' waters?

You seem to have the opinion that ANYTHING the U.S. does abroad is fine and proper, as long as they adhere to the "letter" of international law. Does the U.S. accept all responsibility for their own abuses of those laws, as sanctioned by the U.N. or any other international tribunal?

[GrahmMan]

28. The US sure as hell believes and adheres to the Law of the Sea

It is a duty as the largest Navy, one we took from Britain after WWII.

"You seem to have the opinion that ANYTHING the U.S. does abroad is fine and proper, as long as they adhere to the "letter" of international law."
International Law is largely a matter of tradition, but the law of the sea is pretty clear and one of the most universally recognized and respected of all IL.

The U.S. has duties as the worlds lone superpower, we can go isolationist if you want, I am OK with it, but it is all or nothing. We give up our power to enforce freedom of the seas, we also give up our rights and power to help out Tsunami Victims.

And no, I dont think that everything the U.S. does is right, I never said anythign of the sort.

[bigtree]

31. The "law" is clearly being exploited to intimidate and provoke Iran

. . . in a manner which does nothing but further and aggravate the atmosphere of distrust and animosity between the U.S. and the sovereign nation. Isolationism isn't at issue here, it's interference in the affairs of a sovereign nation which is at the heart of the objections to the U.S. provocations. The very existence of a congressionally funded (republican sponsored) 'office of regime change for Iran', headed by Elizabeth Cheney, is the most pernicious assault on democracy I can imagine by a democratic government pledged to "spread democracy around the globe," as this administration aspires to. Better we stay at home, than muscle our way around the globe, following the imperialistic ambitions of a reckless, blundering, corporatist warmonger.

[GrahmMan]

32. Clearly we are straying from the issue

The HOPPER was in the right here and did the right thing. The event occurred as fragged during a routine transit of an international strait.

This is not interference in Irans affairs has little to do with anything else we may be planning to do.

Peace out, BTW not that anyone cares, since Bill dropped out, I have decided to back Kucinich until the end :)

[bigtree]

33. It appears that some within the administration were working to manufacture a confrontation

either through directing a provocation or through outright fabrications. The Iranian boats didn't appear to be doing anything threatening at all, in either video account. We'll see what Bush does with the incident. I see a mixture of some deescalation by the military, and some opportunistic saber rattling by others in the administration. My reaction to anything this administration does behind our armed forces is always going to be based on my understanding of their own demonstrated and enunciated policy of military expansionism and imperialism, in disregard of their own obligation to adhere to our own laws or any others'.


Jan. 8 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush accused Iran of committing a ``provocative act'' when five of its vessels briefly confronted three U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf.

``It is a dangerous situation and they should not have done it, pure and simple,'' Bush said. ``I don't know what I think their thinking was, but I think it was a provocative act.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHDcSOM36LbE&refer=home

[Dawggie]

34. I have no acqaintences who can confirm or deny what happened on that day

but two things bother me.

1: The video. If you watched the BBC's tape from Iran of the video, you have to wonder why the images were bright and discernible. The video taken on the American ship appeared as if it were taken by a cheep surveillance camera with no auto focus. Is the Iranian Navy equipped with better video capabilities than the USN?

We can read license plate from outer space, but we can't get a clear video of a 40' boat 60 yards away?

2: The voice. It didn't sound Iranian. It sounded like me trying to imitate an Iranian accent in a mean and scary way.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

20. whatever floats your battleship, I suppose.

[Lerkfish]

36. does your chest feel better now?

:eyes:

[Postman]

23. It probably happened. So what, we did this kind of shit all the time.

I was in the navy back in the 1980's.

Remember who the big boogieman was back then? Mohamar Qadaffi and Libya with his "Line of Death" across the Gulf of Sidra.

We used to practice what were called "freedom of the seas" exercises. Which really should have been called "hey, look what I'm doing, in your face Bitch" exercises.....

Kind of provactive, don't you think?

[GrahmMan]

27. But FON exercises were in compliance with international law

Admiralty Law is largely a pratice of what you let people get away with.

Most nations acknoledge 12 NM as territorials, anything more is a power grab and if the big dog navy lets them get away with it, it will become ok for everyone to do it and then we get more conflict over ocean resources.

Good to see another sailor, I had alot of fun with the "Territorial waters" question fighting pirates off of Somalia, a nation with no govt to speak of. :)

[Postman]

38. I think you miss my point.

It's still provacation.

How about conducting flight operations (I was on a carrier) and not notifying the FIR (Flight Information Region)coordinator about it, which you are supposed to do...

as in, steaming off the coast of Libya, conducting flight operations and not notifying the Tripoli Flight Information Region not to freak out that there are US Navy planes swarming like honey bees in your immediate area all the while launching f-14's to head straight for Libya to conduct what were called "fighter sweeps" which meant fishing expeditions to see if you could get them in a confrontation.

Just because you're within the law doesn't mean that it isn't provacative or confrontational.

[Dancing_Dave]

3. I never did believe that audio tape.

Maybe it was transmitted to the US Navy ship from somewhere else.

[MzNov]

4. Where does this go on the list of impeachable offenses? nt

[GrahmMan]

7. No where because it happened n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. So no comparison to the Gulf of Tonkin, then?

[GrahmMan]

22. Not really

Since there was a reasonable threat from these boats in an international strait.

Tonkin was in Vietnamese Territorials correct?

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. My point being they were both manufactured incidents, regardless of location on the globe

[GrahmMan]

30. You can choose to belive it is manufatured

I have been told by witnesses that it is not.


BLown out of proportion, perhaps, manufactured, no.

[libertypirate]

11. You know there is no amount of posturing that will get me to capitulate

my opinion that the warmonger you categorize as you commander in chief is lying sack of crap. He is such a small pathetic man who has had to manufacture fights between the poor of the country he claims his own, and foreign entities that he and his ilk want to control.

Being on the payroll is no excuse for enabling the few who have all the assets to control the many who own all the debt.

You can't be the largest funder of the Pakistani intelligence, and not be the single largest funder of Al-CIA-DUH.

Trolls suck!

[GrahmMan]

24. "Trolls suck!"

If you are referring to me I am not entirely sure what a troll is so I will choose not to be offended.


"Being on the payroll is no excuse for enabling the few who have all the assets to control the many who own all the debt."
Dont see how this fits in at all to the discussion, except as a distraction.

"my opinion that the warmonger you categorize as you commander in chief is lying sack of crap."
Well thats good for you then, I will keep my comments to myself as per the UCMJ.

Deep breaths may help control you unjustified hate of me :)

[libertypirate]

35. Unjustified emotion is mechanism of social control 101

Throw someone off their horse technique, claim their offending your sensibilities. Start them on the path of self defense; likely hood is they will keep defending... The defense position is always weaker, then the troll who asserts a reality they can't prove.

I don't know how you would become to understand my emotional state. Hate of an individual I know nothing about is for the pee brained right type trolls.

UCMJ says nothing about supporting a criminal, criminal enterprise, or a nitwit avoiding accountability. As a matter of fact it is so based on circular mind fucking that it tells you not to obey illegal orders then doesn't allow you to not follow the illegal orders. Not to mention how vested the military is on convicting those who do stand against illegal immoral orders.

People who use bullshit to create bullshit are bullshit. Sir wake up..

You pathetic people continue to think that asserting reality will always make it so... You can fool some of the people... You know

[MzNov]

13. So did all of his other "administrative crimes"

[Dawggie]

14. Thanks for the links. I find the following pretty damning as well.

(From your top link in the OP)

Iran has described the contact in the Gulf as "routine", but U.S. President George W. Bush, speaking ahead of a Middle East trip on Tuesday, said Iran committed "a provocative act."

The U.S. has also released a video of the weekend encounter, including a recording of what it said was the exchange between the two sides.

Iran rejected the footage as fake and accused Washington of trying to stir up tension in the region. Iran's Revolutionary Guards said the images were archive pictures.

<snip>

The situation reminds me of the Military Coup Bush's Granpa was involved in and got close to toppling Roosevelt and setting up a fascist state here in America to the benefit of the wealthiest of the wealth.

[Zywiec]

15. I think it's amazing that both the US and Iranian navies videotaped the same thing. n/t

[bigtree]

16. does the U.S. have a video showing 'white boxes' being thrown from the Iranian boats?

does the U.S. have a video showing ANY of the Iranian boats 'speeding toward' the U.S. war ship?

[bigtree]

19. I'll save you the trouble

On Tuesday, the Pentagon released a videotape shot from the bridge of the USS Hopper showing five fast boats racing back and forth near the convoy.
On the tape, an unidentified Navy crew member says over the radio: "This is coalition warship. I am engaged in transit passage in accordance with international law. I intend no harm. Over."

The boats continue to race through the water even as the U.S. warship repeatedly sounds its horns.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/10/iran.boats/


Video Watch the U.S. Navy video of the incident »
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/10/iran.boats/#cnnSTCVideo

[catmandu57]

17. Add it to the list

When we get around to prosecuting for every thing else we'll include goading Iran into a fake war, if we ever have the nerve to do it that is.

[OzarkDem]

26. Sounds like we need an objective 3rd party to investigate

and determine which side's claim is valid, then negotiate a truce.

Remember the good old days when we used to investigate and deal with these things WITHOUT invading or attacking another country?

Our foreign policy today is like that of schoolyard bullies.

[Disturbed]

37. Maybe it was "for real" but the audio was from elsewhere.

It could be that the audio was a prankster thinking that it would
be humorous. Busholini, of course, took full advantage of the situation.

Iran would never attack the US or Israel unless they were suicidal, which I
seriously don't believe they are.

[David Zephyr]

39. And on the very eve of the New Hampshire Primary...to help John McCain.

There will be more "terror alerts" and always right before an election.