I used to work with large cats (Lions) and I really have to wonder

[Dawggie]

what in the hell this animal's trainers were doing to allow such a thing.

I saw film of a trainer playing tug-of-war with a Bengal and I can't think of anything worse to do. These large cats are surprisingly intelligent and when raised around humans will often pick one as the alpha cat. They are dangerous animals and should be respected, but this whole thing does not make sense. I used to have great fun wrestling with young cubs with weights up to 175 pounds, but no one else in the group could do so without chance of injury (which was usually some nice long scratches). (I used to be with a group that would take lions from petting zoos and prepare them for reintroduction to populated preserves. There's a few of them that in 6 months became as close as any dog I have ever had).

If there were experienced handlers there, I feel this recent tragedy could have been avoided.

Just like the terrible incident with Seigfreid and Roy, the cause could be brought back to human error.

[truedelphi]

1. A sad affair all around. An innocent guest at the zoo cafe gets mauled to death

And the tiger gets killed. And two others were wounded.

Yuck!

[Dawggie]

2. It is a tragic affair and it's one that didn't need to happen.

[judaspriestess]

3. very sad

story all the way around.

[goodgd_yall]

4. I don't know a thing about big cats

but I wonder too why this happened. It seems the tragedy could have been prevented. I'm wondering if the big cat people at the S.F. Zoo were missing some information about their charges.

My local newspaper stated that about a year ago, this same tiger had attacked, through bars, the person feeding it.

[Dawggie]

7. I was lucky, I only once had a cat "go wild" on me and that was entirely my fault.

He was a cub weing in at around 95 pounds and we would let him wonder about the office at night and every now and then he would hunt "dust bunnies" down an aisle. I was very comfortable with this cat and as he prowled toward the imaginary dust bunny in the same fashion a house cat does, I snuck up behind him and "goosed him."

Bad idea.

In less than a flash he had turned around with a paw, claws out, ready to strike.

If it weren't for the familiarity and the intelligence of this particular cat, I would be wearing the scars of that night today.

[pitohui]

5. this is now being investigated as a crime scene

maybe we can hold off on blaming the trainers and zookeepers until we are certain there isn't something else that was going on

it looks like someone may have deliberately released this cat and set it on the young men

they are being close-mouthed about this, but they are saying flat out it's a homicide investigation in a news article i just saw

[LisaL]

6. Well, it for sure is a homicide-by a tiger.

They seem to not know as to how this tiger could have gotten out of the enclosure. If somebody let it out through the door then I suppose if it was done intentionally then that person should be charged with homicide. But they also were saying perhaps this tiger leaped out of the enclosure.
I don't think they got a clue at this moment as to how the tiger got out, so they have to explore all the possibilities.

[iconoclastic cat]

8. Homicide by...tiger?

Isn't that a long way to go to kill someone? Not to mention, what if it backfired?

[LisaL]

10. I just meant, the tiger killed the guy. That much is known.

In other words, the tiger committed homicide, figuratively speaking. I didn't mean somebody set up to kill this guy using a tiger. That'd be very hard to do, even if someone wanted to do it. The tiger is not your trained attack dog.

[iconoclastic cat]

21. Well, downthread the word is that a human set the tiger loose

I don't have any idea if that's correct, since I haven't read the links yet.

[pitohui]

12. i found the link

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071226/ap_on_re_us/tiger_escapes

i dunno, we have tigers in an open air enclosure in nola, have for at least 20 years and the tigers have never gotten free to harm anyone, i doubt this happened with a known dangerous tiger just from coincidence, jack hanna in the interview points out that zoos across america use these enclosures and tigers have never been known to leap out and over a 20 foot vertical wall!

and strangely enough the man killed is an unknown with no ID, hmmm

SF Zoo a crime scene after tiger attack

The San Francisco medical examiner had not been able to identify the dead man, investigator Tim Hellman said Wednesday. The man did not have any identification and no one had called asking about him, according to Hellman.

The zoo's director of animal care and conservation, Robert Jenkins, could not explain how the 300-pound tiger escaped. The tiger's enclosure is surrounded by a 15-foot-wide moat and 20-foot-high walls, and the big cat did not leave through an open door, he said.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. Latest reports

identify the victim as 17-year old Carlos Sousa, of San Jose.

[pitohui]

9. the tiger would have had to leap higher than any tiger has been to known to be able to do

...and the doors were secured so it can't be dismissed as stupid trainer left the cage door open

somebody did this intentionally and the tiger's a victim too from the sound of it

at least that's the impression i got :shrug:

[LisaL]

11. I don't know. Some of these tiger experts were on tv saying

the tigers can leap very high, and they like to swim. Maybe that wall around the enclosure is not high enough.

[pitohui]

16. our wall in nola is about that high and none of the tigers have ever leapt out

looking at the tiger, then looking at the wall -- there's no way, we're talking about a 300 pound animal, i think the laws of gravity come into play at some point

a moat is not a barrier to tigers, they are swimming cats, the moats are provided for enrichment and play, so this is mixing oranges and apples


and it still doesn't explain how the tiger finds the one young man in the zoo with no family, no friends, no ID...hmmm sounds to me like he was running from someone

[LisaL]

25. Hah? They already ID the guy. He was 17 years old.

Whatever makes you think the guy had no family or friends?

[pitohui]

39. um i just believed what the coroner said in the above news reports

no ID, no one looking for the guy

that's what they said :shrug:

it's disturbing how wildly the story keeps changing

[LisaL]

106. Oh he's got family.

CNN put a clip of his parents interview on their website.

[truedelphi]

20. That would be my guess. I don't know how many times in CA

I have had friends install "deer proof" fencing that the deers bounded over within a day or two of it being installed.

The fencing might well have not been high enough

[Dawggie]

17. I'm hoping it wasn't a deliberate action in that someone opened access

for the cat to enter the public thoroughfares of the Zoo. While not familiar with this Zoo, I have been behind the scenes at the Atlanta Zoo's herpetology and "cat houses." It would take a lot of effort for someone to allow or cause this.

Even if someone did bypass all the security involved, it hints at possible under staffing or staffing by individuals who lacked proper training or experience.

Re: the homicide, I have heard the same thing and that they are using it to assure proper containment of the scene and evidence handling.

[NashVegas]

19. I Get The Feeling

From some news reports that there is some information police are holding back.

[MS Liberal]

13. I have an active imagination

I think it was murder. Someone who knew the victim opened the door and since he or she is no dummy they closed the door. The poor tiger was set up. We will all see it on Law and Order soon.

[malaise]

18. They were saying on MSNBC that all the guys knew each other

and there is a rumor that they were taunting the tigers. It could be murder.

[snailly]

74. Murder?

Are you serious?

[LisaL]

29. I imagine whoever opened the door would have been most

likely eaten first.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. This is such a tragic story.

Those innocent visitors and the one that was mauled to death. Horrible. That animal is beautiful but I can't imagine something that big coming at me. :(

[Dawggie]

22. If you ever do, find the biggest 2x4 you can and knock the shit out of it.

That was basically my first ever lesson on what to do with a lion that misbehaves with the addendum use your fist if you don't have a 2x4. I promise. You or I will not hurt the cat, If you're lucky, you'll get his attention.

[flvegan]

52. Thanks for advocating animal abuse.

"a lion that misbehaves"? In what way?

Whack with a 2x4. Yeah, like Ringling uses baseball bats on elephants. Fucking abuse.

[LeftyMom]

60. Pray tell, is this practice why you're no longer caring for big cats?

Fucking a, and people wonder why I say captivity's abusive. It'd be horrible enough if it didn't draw abusive fucksticks like shit draws flies, but damned if that doesn't complicate matters.

[flvegan]

64. Check downthread.

Got ourselves a live one.

[Dawggie]

65. Good god, I wish I were.

Punching out a large cat with your fist is tantamount to hitting a wall with your fist.

Believe me a wild animal's pain threshold is on a completely different level than us or our pets. Just watch and see a few films from the African Bush. It's nature.

I love animals and I respect them and would never suggest anyone do anything to harm one. See a post below describing the tolerance of a large cat.

I left because I needed to make a monetary living. And you are obviously talking about something you have no experience in.

What would you do if you were face to face with a wild animal that was "misbehaving?"

Offer it a biscuit?

Talk nice?

Scold it?


Jesus, these are NOT domesticated animals.

[flvegan]

67. Good god, I'm glad you're not.

So are the animals you'd otherwise be whacking with a 2x4.

You have yet to define "misbehaving" poster.

[LeftyMom]

68. Which is why captivity is a bad idea.

So was this a zoo, or were you training them to jump hoops or some stupid shit like that?

[Lorien]

117. Lol! You've never worked with big cats. If you had, you'd already have

won the Darwin Awards.

[PeaceNikki]

15. Is anyone on this thread from SF area?

My parents are out there visiting and saying there are local reports that the guest who was fatally injured had been taunting the tiger. I found this: http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=31447&cat=0.

Does anyone know anything more about this?

[fed-up]

71. BEST local TV in the Bay Area is KTVU dot com nt

[grasswire]

24. my nephew had zoo volunteer training....

...and was told that the big cats only stay in their enclosure because they are well fed and have no need to hunt. He said that he was told that they could easily clear any obstacles if inclined to escape. This is in a highly regarded city zoo.

[LisaL]

27. That sure doesn't sound very safe or smart.

[Dawggie]

28. Here's some interesting information of recommended Tiger enclosures

Management and Conservation of Captive Tigers, Chapter 3

Tiger Holding Facility and Exhibit
Adapted from M. Bush, L. Phillips and R. Montali and other contributors

EDITORS' NOTE: Tigers are exhibited in a multitude of ways depending on the resources, climate and interests of the institution. There is no set criteria that defines how to exhibit tigers. However, the AZA Tiger SSP recognizes several institutions with good exhibits for tigers (listed alphabetically): Cincinnati Zoo, Indianapolis Zoo, Minnesota Zoo, National Zoo, NYZS/ International Wildlife Conservation Park, and the San Diego Zoo. All of these exhibits have several features in common: 1) relatively large outdoor space; 2) water pools, moats or running streams; 3) natural vegetation to avoid the grotto look; and 4) reduce or avoid bars between tigers and the viewing public.

A major component of tiger management is the facility designed and built to house them. From the outset, the team of people designing the structure include the architect, curators (animal, horticulture and education), veterinary staff, keepers, and director. Problems in design and construction lead to unfavorable facilities that may promote health problems and behavioral problems, such as inactivity and/or pacing, that can be prevented by forethought. Many physical aspects of the facility must be considered.

Irrespective of the enclosure use, the design must avoid a situation in which an animal cannot be fully seen for monitoring, or reached or shifted for potential treatment or immobilization.

Each enclosure must provide a cleanable, disinfectable water source accessible to both the tigers and keepers that can be shut off and drained. This allows monitoring water intake and water deprivation in certain clinical situations, such as pre- or post-immobilization. The non-reservoir watering systems (such as lab animal design self-waterers) can malfunction and inadvertently deprive the cat of water if not checked daily which may be difficult from outside the enclosure.

Lastly, a simplistic point, the facility must be secure to contain the tiger and protect the public and keepers. All doors, including the keeper access and shift doors, must provide the ability to be locked. The design must provide safe access to animal areas for keepers or the veterinary staff in the event a tiger escapes from its primary enclosure. The situation must be avoided where a tiger is out of its primary enclosure, cannot be seen, and can only be reached by directly entering the same space it occupies.


Exhibit Design

The size, nature and abilities of the tiger require secure containment. Modern exhibition of large cats is away form barred enclosures and toward large, naturalistic fenced and moated enclosures. Such exhibition requires careful planning (see Fig. 1).

A tiger moat should be a minimum of 7 m wide at the top and a minimum of 5 m high on the visitors' side. This moat wall should be sheer and unclimbable. The moat wall on the tiger's side should be at a slight angle rather than vertical. There is no need for the moat to be very wide at the bottom, but it should have a large drain capable of carrying away rain, seepage, and wash water. There is no need for the moat to be very wide at the bottom, but it should have a large drain capable of carrying away rain, seepage, and wash water.

Fences should be at least 5 m high and vertical except for the top 1m which should be turned into the exhibit at about a 45 angle. This fence should be constructed of heavy-gauge steel with equally strong support posts and a concrete footing to prevent digging under the fence. Another way to prevent escape under the fence is to bury the fence at least 1m and angled toward the inside of the exhibit.

Care should be taken to be sure that there are no large trees close to the perimeter fence that if climbed by tigers would allow any access to the top of the fence. Adult tigers are unlikely to climb any vertical trees, but young tigers may climb.

Fence chargers and "hot wires" have no place in the containment of large cats. The only use of "hot wires" is to keep animals such as tigers away from some areas of the enclosure.

"Any perimeter fence around an exhibit for animals such as tigers should be checked every day before animals enter the exhibit to be sure that the fence has not been damaged" (J. Doherty).

In Germany minimum standards for a tiger enclosure are 25m2 for an adult pair and cubs for inside; 40m2 for outside. For each additional tiger an extra 4m2 inside and 10m2 outside are required.

.

* Potential restraining include:
Bars: metal for strength, relative low maintenance. These are aesthetically unpleasant, decrease public visibility, may promote trauma from biting or attacking, may trap limbs or heads due to inadequate spacing, and may permit trauma from adjacent cats due to improper design barriers.
* Wire: more aesthetically pleasing, but not as strong as bars and vulnerable to destruction. Welded wire material of sufficient gauge can be obtained and is acceptable for tiger enclosures. This material, through improper installation or selection of material, may trap limbs, heads or teeth especially in young animals.
* Glass: aesthetically pleasing, better visualization of tiger, but requires more maintenance, expense, and is vulnerable to fracture. No matter what restraining material is used, the composition of the material and the external coatings applied must be non-toxic, non-irritating, or non-trauma inducing.

The newer exhibits in AZA zoos have moved toward the use of open air enclosures with vegetation and soil. Plants in the enclosure, which are recommended to provide shade, must be chosen carefully to avoid toxic species (see Exhibit Plantings). The dirt substrate becomes contaminated over time with micro-organisms and parasites thereby exposing the cats to potential concentrations of pathogens. Contaminated substrates should be periodically removed and replaced. To reiterate an earlier point, proper quarantine of animals helps reduce the potential contamination (parasitic) load. Pools and moats need to be designed for maintaining high water quality through filtration or draining and for ease of cleaning and sanitizing, as tigers tend to defecate in water. Drains should be of sufficient size to accommodate cleaning. Cold weather zoos must guard against moats freezing, which would permit possible escape of the tiger.

more at: http://www.tigerlink.org/husbandry/husman3.htm

[Uben]

26. Boys were taunting tiger

I heard this on the news. So what? The animals are supposed to be confined in habitats that make it impossible to escape, not where they can escape if they are pissed off! Why would it even be relevent if they did taunt the tiger? I do not blame the animal, after all, its an animal!

[MedleyMisty]

34. Because if they taunted the tiger

then they should have expected consequences.

It's like people who don't teach their kids how to handle cats and when the cat scratches the kid in self-defense it's all, "Oh, we've got to declaw the cat or take him to the shelter to get killed." without a word about the kid torturing the cat.

Fucking humans.

[LisaL]

38. When I go to the zoo, I expect the tigers and lions to stay in their

enclosures. I don't expect a tiger to leap out and eat a kid. But hey, maybe it's just me.

[MrsMatt]

47. When we go to the zoo,

I also don't expect the animals to vacate their enclosures and eat children.

But, as a mother, I also don't expect my children to taunt and tease the animals, as some reports have indicated. I would hope I've raised them to respect others - people as well as animals.

[BuelahWitch]

86. Well don't act like an ass and taunt them

And they'll probably leave you alone.

[BuelahWitch]

43. Doesn't this kind of thing happen at least once a year?

Darwin award types who try to be macho and taunt zoo animals or climb into the enclosures. Hopefully some good will come of this and the two that survived will have more respect for animals.

[LisaL]

50. I hope you realize that it's a complete speculation that

anyone taunted the tiger. As of now, police has no clue how the tiger got out, whether it leaped out, whether somebody opened the door for it.
It's really amazing that you seem to already have jumped to the conclusion that the victims were taunting the tiger.
It's all speculation at this point.

[BuelahWitch]

84. Read post 26

It's always young guys trying to prove what big weenies they have. I saw several taunt a baboon at the Salt Lake Zoo years ago. Made it so mad it was slamming against the glass trying to get at them. If it would have gotten out it would have ripped the limbs off the little bastards and they would have deserved it.

[LWolf]

37. It's relevant

in that it exposes the arrogance, and the lack of empathy, that too many in our species exhibit.

First of all, keeping a living thing captive for our own entertainment is not exactly something to be proud of. It's one thing to have a zoo to educate people about wildlife and the habitats that sustain them, or to serve as breeding programs for endangered species, or homes for rescued animals that cannot be returned to the wild. It's another to keep them captive as a phallus enhancer for bullies.

I don't blame the tiger, but I, too, would have shot her to protect the rest of the zoo visitors.

It's too bad that their is no heavy fine or penalty for taunters.

[Mrs. Overall]

40. They weren't "boys"--the news report says "men" since they were 19 and 23 years old.

[Dawggie]

42. silly! Don't you know the rules? If they shot someone, they'd be men.

If they can be perceived a victim they're regarded as boys.

[LisaL]

51. The one that was killed was 17.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. When I heard the story, my first assumption was that some idiot

thought it would be "funny" to let one of the tigers out.

I don't watch TV news, so I don't know if that's the case.

[CatWoman]

30. know what's so sad?

last night I watched "growing up tiger" on the Animal Channel.

The zoo reared four tigers from birth -- three males and a female.

Such irony, huh?

I'll bet they destroy the tiger - I sure hope they don't :cry:

[LisaL]

31. The tiger has been killed yesterday.

It's already dead.

[Dawggie]

32. Sadly, it has been destroyed already.

And it was not the cat's fault for behaving instinctively.

[LisaL]

33. Of course police should have just given it some milk and cookies,

after it was apprehended trying to maul his victim. Frankly, I think it shouldn't have even been in the zoo after it attacked a keeper. Had they put it down then, these men would have not been killed and mauled.

[Dawggie]

35. It's hard to say, not knowing the keeper, but the only folks I have ever

known who were ever injured at all by a lion in my care was a kennel cleaner who decided to interact with a cat without proper training/experience. She showed fear, she got stitches. While it hasn't ever happened, a proper keeper/trainer of large cats can do their job without serious incident as long as patience and sobriety of action are tantamount.

I'm pretty certain that this was an animal raised in captivity and if there were sufficiently trained and experienced people around, this never would have happened.

Just my opinion. I'm on the cat's side.

[Beaverhausen]

41. Jesus Christ- the tiger was doing what tigers do for fuck's sake

You seem amazed that this tiger attacked a human. Tigers are the most fierce killers on the planet. They should not be kept in zoos - and it should be no surprise that one managed to somehow escape it's cage and attack the nearest human.

My money is on the victims- who the news reported as being all in their late teens-early 20s- having taunted this cat.

Sad story all around.

[uppityperson]

49. I agree, tigers are not good zoo/show animals.

They are aggressive, smart, wild, sometimes controllable but, in the end, always wild carnivores.

[Raine]

54. Killing something that is

doing what is natural, always seems to be the answer to everything. :sarcasm: Animals don't belong in zoos for human entertainment in the first place! :mad:

[Dawggie]

36. This thread has brought back some of my best memories.

A lion named Hutch (from a pair called Starsky and Hutch for a dating) and I would wrestle almost daily. I never sustained a bite and scratches were never more than welts. What really looked bad was the abrasion of the cat's fur on my neck which looked like a terrible case of poison ivy. Hutch's favorite way to start a match was to launch himself at me with front paws around my neck and his rear legs wrapped around my hips. That's when he would nuzzle my neck until we'd collapse onto a linoleum floor and try to pin each other.

I got to keep him for about 9 months until we found him a home a a Georgia Politician's refuge.

I didn't see him for over a year and on my only visit to him he went as apeshit as a happy puppy when he heard my voice from around a corner and bounced onto the chain link fence like the kitten I rremember.

That is one of the better days of my life.

And I never saw him again.

[OzarkDem]

44. A Georgia politician has a lion refuge?

It wasn't one of those hunting preserves, was it? Seems an odd thing for a politician to have.

[BreweryYardRat]

46. Might have been Max Cleland -- I can see him running an actual refuge.

He was a stand-up guy, from everything I've heard.

[Dawggie]

53. This was back in the seventies...

And it isn't that unusual for someone with very deep pockets and it most certainly wasn't a sporting preserve. His name will be keptout of this because he was a friend to animals.

However I still feel that it was more for show than care.

[maxsolomon]

45. dawggie, i'm getting really jealous of your experiences!

i'm trying to picture the intensity of my abyssinian's affections 30 times the size. it would be frightening & amazing at once.

[Dawggie]

55. I'd give my left nut just to wrestle with Hutch one more time.

I really could and did shove my face in his maw just to hear others go wow!

I'm smiling from every pore I have just remembering it all.

[flvegan]

56. Why wrestle when a 2x4 is so convenient.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2533691&mesg_id=2533823

[Dawggie]

57. Ummmm... if you have a cat attacking you?

Believe me you will know.

[flvegan]

58. "when a lion misbehaves"

Your words.

[Dawggie]

61. And I'll stand by that.

They have a very different pain threshold than you or I do.

I remember once when Hutch messed me on a leap and turned head over heels to land solidly on his noggin making a sound like a coconut on concrete.

Didn't phase him and didn't slow him down.

And it didn't phase his intentions toward wrpping around me and playing.


If you haven't been there...

Trust me, I have.

[flvegan]

63. So then smashing an animal with a 2x4 is cool with you?

I want to be really sure I'm not misreading you.

I've seen elephants "trained" with Louisville Sluggers for the circus. Still painful, still abuse.

[Dawggie]

66. Personally, I never have (hit an animal with a 2x4).

However, I'll reiterate that it's a good idea to get the animal's attention.

Now, if you were working with sharks and one was coming at you mouth open... What would you do? Would you kill it?

[flvegan]

69. When are you going to define "misbehaving" Dawggie?

I'm shocked that you have no regard for training and containment rules.

Not nearly as glad as I am that you're out of that business.

[Dawggie]

73. Biting.

Now, please tell me what kind of experience you have had in training large cats or other wildlife?

Also, please note that in other posts the 2x4 bit is explained and chances are one would never have the chance to exercise it in anything other than a construction site. Which, here in the states, doesn't happen that often.

Believe me, I love animals and am very involved i=n their protection.

Your ignorance in training such animals reminds me of those who used to complain that I fed them chickens with the bones still intact or those that would ask me for a vegan diet for their cats.

[flvegan]

75. A lion biting?

Yeah, okay. A massive cat like that bites and the recipient has the ability to counter with this 2x4. Maybe it's from a partner. Either way, seems you'd be missing limbs.

You're the one that advocated it. Maybe you only "trained" "misbehaving" lions on construction sites.

Suspicious as hell.

[Dawggie]

77. WTF's you problem?

I'm not making anything up here.

Then again, why the fuck am I arguing with you?

Never mind. Go away.

[flvegan]

79. Stop advocating animal abuse, and I'm gone.

My problem is you suggesting smashing an animal with a 2x4 for "misbehaving" which I'll bet is a damn lot bigger in definition than biting.

Back to you.

[Dawggie]

82. Okay, you have a 300 pound cat charging you with hunger in its eyes... Whatya gonna do?

Tickle it?

[flvegan]

83. Why is that cat charging me?

Was I deficient in my care and containment? Am I just stupid and put myself in that situation?

Why do I have a 2x4 to begin with, I mean, was I expecting something?

I'd be smart enough to not BE in that situation. You're a pro, right?

[Dawggie]

87. You smell like food?

I have never hit an animal with a 2x4.

And yes, at the time I was a pro and the situation never came up.

[flvegan]

88. But it's an acceptable training method, yes, at least in your circle?

[Dawggie]

89. No, you idgit! It's a method of defense!

Have you not read anything here?

[LeftyMom]

91. Oh, do go on.

Here, have a larger shovel.

:popcorn:

[Dawggie]

104. Sorry, what would you suggest against an attacking lion?

[flvegan]

92. Defense?

Against a lion. A biting lion. Seriously?

Yeah, okay.

[CreekDog]

121. this was stated i dunno how many times upthread?

it's about time.

now back to my :popcorn:

[CreekDog]

120. he didn't say it was a training method

you are turning his argument into a straw man argument.

you are mocking him for an argument HE DID NOT MAKE.

stop, this is making you look stupid at this point and making dawg look more and more reasonable if anything in contrast to you. keep it up and your point will get associated with your unfair tactics and thus your point lost but for your tactics.

[CreekDog]

119. he explained "misbehaving" and it wasn't for simply breaking a rule you have for your kitty

that he used the term "misbehaving" when it was clear at the start and explicitly clear in later posts that it was when you are confronted with a cat that whether meaning harm or not, presented a serious or potentially serious danger to you --and what you should do in that situation.

flvegan you are absolutely being unfair to the poster because you are using his word which he used artfully but certainly explained then and subsequently what was meant as if he was advocating beating an animal for scratching the furniture.

you should stop and try another argument. in a situation of self-defense if your position is that you should not do something to stop/prevent the injury to yourself if it means violent force against the animal, then state that opinion, but you won't do that, but you are arguing against a poster who is saying, "hey, that's how you handle it". yet when asked you won't simply say, "yeah, don't harm the animal even in that instance" or pretending not to know that dawg was talking about when confronted with injurious force by a large, wild animal.

like i said, you aren't making a fair argument because you are projecting an opinion on the person you are arguing against that that poster did not make nor intend (i'm not reading his mind, he explained himself).

play fair flvegan.

[CreekDog]

118. I think he's saying if you are about to get killed or seriously injured

to punch or grab a 2x4 to deal with it.

he is not saying to do that when the cat wets on the carpet.

let's not make more out of his post than he indicated. his advice was for a very specific circumstance and is obviously and explicitly to avoid severe injury. while you or i could be mauled, maimed or killed in this situation, against a large animal, preventing that from happening is not likely to do the same harm to the animal.

that was his point and he is balancing the risks so as to avoid the most harm to either the animal or the person.

if you want to tease him or joke with him about the 2x4 that's one thing, but bunch of folks here are very seriously accusing this man of wanton animal abuse which is not what he is advocating. you guys (some of you, some that i like from the lounge even) are losing the context here.

the point is had the 17-year old when confronted with the tiger, punched the tiger or used a stick to get his attention, the tiger would likely not have been harmed seriously due to its size, strength and thick noggin and the 17-year old might have been spared his life. yes in that instance with that outcome, the 2x4 is a better alternative for both boy and tiger. now both are dead.

and by the way, if you let the animal attack you and you die, it may be put down anyway.

so think this through and if you don't want to at least read dawg's messages thoroughly because i think he explained himself quite well, with patience and re-explanation while folks here mocked him by making him out to be giving advice he didn't really give or intend.

[Dawggie]

59. I'm not bullshitting man.

This was one of the best experiences in my life.

I've broken horses as well and would not recommend the same actions for a broken horse as for a horse being broken.

Peace.

[flvegan]

62. You advocated smashing an animal with a 2x4 for "misbehaving"

Peace fucking nothing.

I'd love to hear what "misbehaving" is. APHIS probably would as well.

[Dawggie]

70. Look, I've let Macaws gnaw on my arm to show them I'm their equal.

Ever trained a wild bird? Would you reflexively knock it off because of the pain? listen, these guys can open coconuts with their beaks and it hurts like hell. Don't get me started on saving Raptors.

Would you let a lion rip off a large part of your arm without fighting back?

Usually with a large cat a good cold-cock to the face is enough to let it know that you don't like it chomping down on your limbs.

Fact is people bring non indigenous animals here. Fact is, some people have to train these animals to coexist in their new environment.

Do I like it?

No.

I wish they had all been left at home.

However when I was in the business, I would much rather I train them to exist here rather than to starve or be left to rot.

[flvegan]

72. You have yet to define "misbehaving" which begets a slam with a 2x4.

This isn't wild birds, and it's not a strawman, so spare me.

Volley to you.

[Dawggie]

76. Actually, I have. Biting.

And a 2x4 wielded by you or me to a full grown lion would be nothing more than a slap. In the wild, the lion wouldn't be phased and would figuratively take it away from you and beat the shit out of you. Then it would eat you.

In reality, it wouldn't even slow down the cat.


You obviously have never been around non-domesticated animals.

[flvegan]

78. How does APHIS feel about the 2x4 training method, eh?

[Dawggie]

80. Dear Moronica...

If you will read the thread, you will find that I never advocate the use of a 2x4 as a training method.

It was advocated as a way to defend oneself of an attacking (misbehaving) large cat.

However, you have decided to take an adversarial point against a person and situation that you have no experience or sentient thought.

I have trained several different types of animals in my life and I have never used pain as a way of doing it. Just like torture, it doesn't bring about the results one would hope.

I have no idea why you have chosen me as a victim of your unresolved past or whatever, but I can assure you I am a champion of animals and not a punisher.

[flvegan]

81. Post #22, your words

Dawggie (312 posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-26-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. If you ever do, find the biggest 2x4 you can and knock the shit out of it.

That was basically my first ever lesson on what to do with a lion that misbehaves with the addendum use your fist if you don't have a 2x4. I promise. You or I will not hurt the cat, If you're lucky, you'll get his attention.


Your redefining, as it seems, "misbehaving" to be attacking is still suspicious. Again, how does APHIS feel about this training method?

[Dawggie]

85. "Misbehaving" Essentially refers to ATTACKING or chowing down

on one of your limbs.

Any suggestiuons on a more appropriate behaviour?

Shit, you're being silly here.

Trust me, you never want to give a carnivore and excuse to hate you.

I played with the cats and they played with me. We honestly loved one another. Smarmy but True.

When it comes to an animal eating me or getting a knock on the head with my fist? I'll do my best to punch his/her lights out.

I have never his an animal with a 2x4 but I would have if I thought it was the animal or me.

[flvegan]

90. Seems that mortally wounding someone is more than "misbehaving"

I noticed that none of the news outlets suggesting that the animal that this is all based on was "misbehaving".

Seems that if an animal, like a full grown lion, was going to eat you, a 2x4 would be little deterrent. Sure it "gets attention" I guess. I mean, why then didn't the police grab a chunk of yella wood and swing it at that tiger? Instead, the animal was shot to death.

Sounds more like shitty training technique, again unsupported by APHIS. A point you've failed to attend to.

[Dawggie]

93. Okay, you want a pissing contest? Post your receipt from your most recent ASPCA donation

And I'll beat it if not earlier this year or now. And what is Aphis? An aphid species? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphis

[LeftyMom]

94. Oh. My. Gawd.

:rofl:

[Dawggie]

95. LOL! Really!

But it's fun!

[LeftyMom]

96. You have no, idea.

You just stepped in it. Big.

[Dawggie]

98. I don't think so....

You don't know me.

[LeftyMom]

105. You're right, I don't. But I know flvegan pretty well, and you just busted out the "I care more

than you do about animals" card, because you donate to the ASPCA.

Considering that last time I was at his house he had thirteen formerly abused dogs (plus three cats and a rabbit) in his care, three of them undergoing very expensive vet care for issues others would have euthanized over, I-care-enough-to-write-checks (yeah, so do we) looks fucking hilarious by comparison to I-care-enough-that-it-takes-most-of-my-time-and-money.

So forgive me for laughing, but that was really, really amusing.

[Dawggie]

108. Now tell me what kind of experience you have with non-indigenous animals

that AREN'T dogs or cats.

Wanna guess the percentage of animals that aren't dogs and cats? Why is it you people figure that the only animals worth living are cute and cuddly? Mice, rats, possums, Koala bears, Pandas, moles...


Where to draw the line?

I think Polar bears are worth keeping but it doesn't look to good for them. Humpback whales?

WTF is it with you people. A "cute" factor? Hey, penguins are gonna be outta here b4 too long. What's that going to do for formal wear?

I'm glad you find this funny in your so little, little world.

We're raping the planet wholesale today and you would rather pick at the nits.

I hope you live well with them.

[flvegan]

109. *spoken to a vegan*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Weren't you going to bed?

[LeftyMom]

112. Oh, I thought this was about writing checks to (domesticated) animal welfare groups.

Not only has he likely got you beat on that one (hell, he's got the heads of half of 'em in his cell phone) he's doing the same sort of work on his own dime. So now you're bitching that he's unqualified to tell you that hitting a tiger with a 2x4 is abusive because he's got dogs and cats and rabbits, and not fucking ocelots or something? (Jesus Christ, I think he strains the kindness of the local zoning authorities quite enough as is.)

Hitting a tiger with a 2x4 is a violation of any local or state anti-cruelty statute I've ever seen, it's against federal regulations governing captive exotics, and it's probably a violation of a couple of different international treaties governing the trade in exotic and threatened animals.

[Dawggie]

113. I promise, if htere is a hungry bear or large cat coming after you with food in mind...

No one will feel bad if you use a 2x4 in unsuccessful defense.

RIP

[LeftyMom]

116. I have the good sense not to imprison or otherwise fuck with one.

Out in the wild (or here in the burbs, we get mountain lions near my house all the damn time, though you have to go up the hill a bit for bears) the only ones we have around here leave people the fuck alone. Even kids can scare 'em off by making themselves look bigger (the standard advice is to hold their coat or schoolbooks over their heads) and being noisy.

So unless one lives in some rural Indian village (in which case you're more likely to be killed by elephants than tigers) if you're being bothered by big cats, it's probably because you're going out of your way to be an asshat and mistreat them.

[CreekDog]

124. it's not illegal if you are defending yourself from an attack

self-defense is legal and that is what the OP was talking about.

i think it is unfair for you to accuse him of making an argument he did not make.

[Dawggie]

115. How cute.

How many animals have you given aid to for breaking a leg in a gopher hole on the Texas border?

How many snakes have you given treatment for an infected rodent bite?

How many tropical birds have you tried to treat for the new infections they find in NA?

You're a baby and don't even know it.



The Coyotes of today don't even look like the Coyotes of yesterday. The Deer of yesterday cohabit with the Suburbs in the SE.

The wild of NA are practically non existent. The wild of the rest of the world that are brought into this cesspool are nearly existant in their own right. It is up to a few that are willing and able to do with them to try to assure they live and hopefully prosper.

[CreekDog]

122. i need a refill, with extra butter this time

:popcorn:

[flvegan]

97. Are you serious?

[Dawggie]

99. You betcha. this is something that's important to me.

[flvegan]

100. So, in addition to a pissing contest, you really don't know what APHIS is?

[Dawggie]

101. National Animal Health Monitoring System?

Which really only approaches the health of livestock????

WTF does this have to do with indigenous animals?


http://nahms.aphis.usda.gov/index.htm

[flvegan]

102. So then your answer is "no" you have no clue as to what APHIS is

even though you allege to have been knee deep for some time.

Still want to have that pissing contest?

on edit: here's the opportunity to take this to PM. If you give a big check to the ASPCA, then I applaud you for it. I'm not a braggart and I don't want to come off as one.

That said...

[Dawggie]

103. OTOH, it's my bedtime at the moment and I've been down with pneumonia

this week. I look forward to reading your messages tomorrow, but please do not regard my delay in answering your future messages as trying to avoid them.

I'm sure you are a good person, but at the moment my health dictates sleep.

[flvegan]

107. I'm sorry for your illness.

10 minutes ago, it was important. I'm hoping for a speedy recovery, as this must have struck you very hard. Just now.

I really don't need to say anything else.

Oh, and btw...I'm glad you donate to the ASPCA, even though you wanted to have a pissing match over it. I don't donate to the ASPCA, tbh. Ed Sayres himself told me, when we were all hanging out at a friend's house, that he really didn't want my money. The six figures I've sunk into the rescue I run here gives me that kind of cred, I guess. Nice guy, though. We've hung out a few times.

But anyway...

[Dawggie]

110. Hey, search my posts and you wil find that I'm not calling `the pneumonia

card' for this discussion.

[flvegan]

111. And?

You called in sick. No biggie.

[Dawggie]

114. it bothered me so much I came back.

Have you found anything that would lend me to animal cruelty?

[rug]

123. Surveillance camera still released.