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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:31 AM
Original message
Sen. Reid is Setting Us Up on FISA
Edited on Fri Dec-14-07 07:29 AM by kpete
Sen. Reid is Setting Us Up on FISA
by BooMan23
Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 11:10:50 PM PST


As far as I can tell, Senator Reid is preparing to ignore Senator Dodd's 'hold' on any FISA bill that includes telecommunications corporations' immunity. He will introduce the Intelligence Committee's bill that includes immunity and then 'automatically substitute' the Judiciary Committee's version that does not include immunity. This is intended to trick you and me into believing that Dodd's 'hold' is being respected. The Senate will then debate the Judiciary bill and amendments to that bill.

If we succeed in defeating any and all amendments that seek to introduce immunity, the bill will go to a final vote (obviously preceded by a vote on cloture to cut off debate). At this point the Republicans may refuse to invoke cloture. If they do, the bill will probably be pulled and the Senate will move on to other things. But if the Republicans are smart, they will vote to invoke cloture. The Senate will then proceed to a vote. Perhaps the Democrats will remain united, and the FISA bill without immunity will pass. But then we'll hit an improvised explosive device. The Senate will then have to vote to approve the just passed Judiciary version of the bill as the substitute for the underlying base bill...the Intelligence bill that provides for immunity. If the Republicans can defeat the substitution, then the bill will revert to the Intelligence version of the bill.


Why does this matter?

............................

If the base bill has no immunity, it will require sixty votes to introduce immunity. If the base bill has immunity, it will require 41 votes (because of the filibuster rules) to keep it from passing. Depending on how Reid introduces the bill, we can prevail with 41 votes, or fail because we cannot get 60.


The reason Reid is doing this in a way that requires 60 is because he wants to pass something. And the only way he can pass something is to pass exactly what the president wants...which includes immunity. So, he has decided to choose a path that will deceive us about whether or not he is honoring Senator Dodd's hold, and deceive us about whether he made a good faith effort to prevent immunity.

more at:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/14/2829/8746/...

.........

NY Times:

Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader, seems intent on doing the presidents bidding. He has indicated that instead of the Judiciary Committees bill, he may put on the floor a deeply flawed measure from the Senate Intelligence Committee that dangerously expands the governments powers and gives undeserved amnesty to the telecommunications companies. The White House says amnesty is intended to ensure future cooperation but seems truly aimed at making sure the public never learns the extent of the companies involvement in illegal wiretapping.

That will leave Democratic senators like Christopher Dodd and Russ Feingold in the absurd position of having to stage filibusters against their own partys leadership to try to forestall more harm to civil liberties.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/opinion/14fri1.html?_...
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is very sneaky, and will probably work.
There is NO WAY that this can be simply explained to the American people, so it will will not be discussed by the media until after the fact.

Why is "after-the-fact" immunity EVER legitimate? Would it ever be done for anyone less influential than the telecom industry?
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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. Him and pelosi, two losers. Big mistakes. No more excuses for these back stabbers. n/t
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. This would be a GOOD day to call the Senate,
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
51. Done
Great idea. The volume of angry mail got their attention last time. Congress needs to know the public hasn't forgotten about our rights. We are watching.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. well if this is the case then we need to start a dem revolution..we need to stop their asses now.
we need to all get on our phones and call Reid and tell him..we will start a dem revolution..we will not give another damn dime to the dems ..and we will not do volunteer work..and we will withold even possibly voting..we need to hold a stick over their heads..

and mean it.

fly
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. They don't care if they get our money. They have CORPORATIONS. Grassroots mean nothing to them
anymore. :( Really. They do not care what we want or think. I think they've made that clear by their actions.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kicking with a suggestion. . .
I just called Schumer & Clinton's offices. I found that paraphrasing the OP was the easiest way to explain what my beef was...

Schumer's aid indicated that he is AGAINST the telecom immunity.. and she understood the switcheroo that Reid is trying to pull..
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. Harry and Nancy sold out America a year ago!!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Feingold has 14 senators who will back him on FISA with no immunity;
I don't know if that's enough to combat Reid's turncoatedness, but it's something.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Thanks for offering hope in a sea of negativity
I hope the Dems aren't a dumb as DUers think they are.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I don't think anyone thinks they're dumb. (nt)
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
52. Cue "Betrayal Music"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. I wish your subject line started with ACTION ITEM:
Call Reid's office toll-free. The lines are busy, so keep trying.

I used the first number so I know it works... haven't tried them all in a while, though.

877-8516437

800-8280498

866-3381015

866-3409281

800-6142803



Thanks.

:kick:
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. DLC: neocon enablers
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Reid never saw an issue he wouldn't sell out
I'd vote Republican before I voted for that turncoat.

Worst minority and majority leader in history, based on his record.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. Kick for action.
:kick:


*sigh*
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. My world is now one of severely lowered expectations.
I don't expect anything out of the tag team from hell of Pelosi/Reid anymore except initial tough talk, followed by cowering, followed by a roll. Although this might discourage progressives from voting in '08, it shouldn't. Once we get a veto proof majority, there's going to be payback. Lieberman first. We just can't afford payback right now.

What pisses me off the most, that brain dead little fuck of a president comes off looking like a genius, every time getting what he wants, and then some.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. A veto-proof majority?
You really see 16 Dem pickups (and no repuke pickups such as La.)?

I'd be ecstatic if we could get to 60 (cloture threshold).
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Will Any Of The Democratic Candidates Stand Up?
Dodd has promised to fillibuster any FISA bill that includes Telcom immunity. I hope he's still ready for that fight. Also Senators Biden, Clinton and Obama have said they'd support such a fillibuster. Let's see how they act or react...this undedicded voter will be watching...
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Can't stand up if you don't have a backbone.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

can't take much more of this shit...
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. My Primary Vote Rides On This One
I have been uncomitted just for this very reason. I want to see leadership here. Now who will lead and who will sneak in at the last moment and cast a vote that doesn't matter?

Any of the leading candidates that don't support Dodd can be assured of not earning my vote.
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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
48. soooo horribly true n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
15. Corrupt duopoly. Can the stranglehold on power be broken?
Our system of government is broken. I see no good way out of this mess.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Truly speechless.....
:wow:
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. kick. you can't win when your own are against you.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. Kick for action.
:kick:
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Kind of puts "impeachment is off the table" into perspective, eh?
They're all on the same damn team. We need to get rid of people like Reid and Pelosi. They're serving the same corporate interests as the Republicans.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Those who live in glass houses never throw stone;) n/t
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ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. Last night, I watched Reid explain about compromise being the essence of politics;
I thought he was attempting to shame the Republicans. I see that I was mistaken, he was in fact, consoling the Democrats.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Compromise to Reid means
boot-licking capitulation.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Compromise by these turncoats has gotten us nuthin but
kicked in the teeth.

What's really fucked up? The Democratic Leaders "Compromise with * and the fucking Republicans the deal is almost done and then the Republicans change their mind and want to tweak the deal in their favor. Fuck Reid and Fuck Pelosi....how soon can we get rid of them.

We could use Feinold and Dodd...as our leaders.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Toll free numbers here...
877-8516437

800-8280498

866-3381015

866-3409281

800-6142803
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. There you go.. bashing the Dems again..
You and your factual news stories are really screwing things up for the lock steppers..
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sss1977 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
44. haha, awesome response.
Perfect!
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. Reid barely won his re-election by some 400+ votes
the last time. I guess he doesn't realize that he barely made it back in and he can and will lose more than 400 votes next time around, including mine.
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MzNov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. Reid does this over and over and over. He's a slick, slimey

snake oil salesman who is forever making "deals" in the back rooms of Congress. Except that his deals are not helping us, the voters, the people, the masses. Email him, fax him, call him, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE.

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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. yep. over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over...

one-party corporate rule. Ain't it grand???
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. k and r
How do we get rid of Reid as leader? He is simply worthless....a puff of hot air.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
28. The real question is, why does he want to "pass something"??
Is "passing something" somehow imperative? By passing "nothing", is he in peril?

And second, does he want to alienate Dodd? Does he think Dodd will remain quiet about this?
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Randypiper Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. Harry Reid
You are a Bush-Cheney ally
You are a backstabbing democrat
You disgust me
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
32. So which of these "Sweet 16" Democrats will stand against imunity?
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downindixie Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
35. If the telecoms have immunity
wouldn't they be able to talk freely about what the WH required them to do?
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alllyingwhores Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Is this sarcasm?
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Mister Ed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. If they have immunity, they don't have to talk to anyone.
Prosecutors get accomplices to squeal on the bigger fish by threatening the accomplices with prosecution and conviction.
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #35
56. exactly.., this is why Bush wants and will sign it!
:smoke:
:crazy:
:wtf:
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. Grrrecommended
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. It's now overwhelmingly conclusive: Reid and Pelosi are now conspiratorial enablers of the BFEE
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Diamond Dave Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. So like is what new with our Dear Senator Reid? Absolutely nothing but lame as can be.
n/t

Sad, sad and sad some more.

Someone please remind me how we won in the "sweep" of 2006. The Dems won? What did we win? Absolutely nothing.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-14-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
43. JUMP the GUN analysis can backfire. Read what Sen. Wyden said.
RESTORE: Warrantless Spying Showdown Postponed to Monday -- UPDATED
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
55. Wyden opposes giving immunity to the telecoms.
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 07:44 AM by Usrename
This isn't an argument about process over substance. It's about tactics.

Reid is using tactics that heavily favor allowing immunity for the telecoms, and will force Dodd to fillibuster the bill.

Why?

He doesn't have to do it that way. He could make the Republicans fillibuster the version of the bill that doesn't grant immunity, instead.
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rosetta6 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
46. How can anybody believe in the Democrats anymore?
Except for Kucinich of course, and one or two others.
In general though, same as the Repugs. One party.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. pretty sad, isn't it? (welcome to du) n/t
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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
49. "...if the Republicans are smart..." they're not ... just a Dem base that allows them their idiocy
and hypocrisy

as for the Dems ... bi-polar much?
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
50. There's no "if". Reid has turned traitor. Here's why and what you can do
From Glenn Greenwald at Salon.com:

"...The summarized version is that there were two competing bills which Reid could have brought to the floor -- the Senate Intelligence Committee version engineered by Jay Rockefeller and Dick Cheney which gives the administration most of what it wants, and the Senate Judiciary Committee, which does not contain telecom amnesty and contains far more extensive oversight protections. Reid could have brought the bill to the floor using whatever process he wanted, and he has decided -- contrary to weeks of assurances -- that the SIC bill will serve as the "base" bill, meaning that improving it (by removing amnesty and increasing oversight) will require 60 votes, rendering such efforts virtually impossible. In doing so, Reid is brazenly ignoring the demands of 14 Senators -- including all of the Democratic presidential candidates -- to have the Judiciary Committee bill be the base bill.

Worse still, Reid is completely disregarding the "hold" placed by Chris Dodd on any amnesty bill -- simply refusing to honor it, even as he respectfully honors literally scores of "holds" from GOP Senators such as Tom Coburn. And while Dodd is interrupting his campaigning to fly to Washington to lead the filibuster he vowed, Reid has ensured with scheduling manuevers that the filibuster will take place only over the weekend -- when all of the members are away raising money anyway and journalists aren't paying attention -- with the intent to try to force cloture once everyone returns on Monday.
(snip)

...At least as of now, Reid is the clear villain here, doing everything possible to enable the Bush/Cheney FISA agenda on telecom amnesty and surveillance powers, and doing everything possible, yet again, to ensure that Senate Democrats stand up to nobody except their voters and their base who put them in power.

Reid is extremely vulnerable in Nevada and if he follows through with his stated plans, those vulnerabilities ought to be exploited to the fullest, whether it be with anti-Reid ads in Nevada to drive his numbers even lower or concerted, all-out support for a serious primary challenge to Reid's re-election bid in 2010, etc. Until Congressional Democrats know that there are consequences from siding with the administration and attacking their actual supporters, they will continue to do that.
(snip)

...Harry Reid is doing everything he can to thwart those who are attempting to impede Bush's demands and thus doing everything he can to ensure that the White House is liberated from the prospect of accountability for past lawbreaking and vested with vast, new eavesdropping powers with as little oversight as possible -- just as Mitch McConnell would be doing if he were Majority Leader (though even McConnell might lack the audacity to simply run roughshod over Dodd's hold, as Reid is apparently doing -- while treating Tom Coburn's holds as sacred).

FROM ME: If Reid continues with this in spite of leading everyone to believe he would not, I do not know how he could possibly show his face in public again. He already reminds me of someone on their deathbed with that whispering old voice of his he externalizes weakness. As a democrat I am deeply disturbed by this and my loyalty will be non-existent if Reid succeeds in going against Dodd and the other presidential candidates who oppose this bill. He is single handedly telling the public that our own presidential candidates lack good judgment so he will ignore them. How can anyone still consider him a member of the democratic party? Everyone tells me he used to be tough, a boxer, a marine. But I've only known him since he became leader in the senate and he seems like a weak shriveled up old man who only whispers and has no control over getting a democratic message out. I may not know so much but I know what I see and he's done nothing to impress me as smart, brave or shows organization or leadership skills. But I keep hoping, and until now kept supporting him. Now...I'm just depressed.

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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
53. Reid is a bushco rethug masquerading as a Democrat.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
54. 10 to 1 they got pictures of him being screwed by a cow wearing a lavender dress
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 07:28 AM by natrat
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
57. Reid is a traitor to the American people.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
58. i think democrats have to think WAY beyond reid & pelosi...they are interim fuckups
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
59. I first wrote about this on Oct 5 at DU. Can't our Democratic Congressional
Senators and Representatives get the message? We are not going to stop paying attention to this issue. Every single time they try to slip this Phone Company Immunity through, we will be watching and will know whom to blame. The Republicans can not generate ANY legislation. They can block legislation only.

Congressional Dems, get a clue. It is one thing to say you can not bring the troops home, another to say you can not stop the GOP from giving the Phone Company immunity.
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