A positive spin on the religious rancor at DU (long)

[blondeatlast]

I’ve been frustrated, angry, mildly annoyed, and outright brought to tears by some of the things I’ve read concerning a group I find myself in here at DU: self-described Christians. I’ve been hurt by the blanket characterizations, the overreaching stereotypes, occasionally to the point of an inclination to depart for friendlier message board shores.

It just happened again as I went to get a snack. Yet another stinging post from a DUer I normally respect and appreciate, even consider a friend. Not directed at ME, just at Christians in general. It wasn’t going to be a tearful farewell, just a quick goodbye and a look later to see if anyone would miss me—I’m human and I need love too. Then something occurred to me. In a weirdly “safe” way, this is actually good for me.

Say what you will—I have felt it here, absolute venom, in some cases. And it occurs to me that it’s perhaps a little good to know (as a decidedly UNOPPRESSED and hopefully rarely complaining majority member) what those who don’t share my beliefs must deal with from the government, society, their workplaces, even their friends and family. The need to walk on eggshells and the worry that one can’t express oneself openly for fear of starting something unpleasant even among people one considers friendly. That’s a great burden to bear. At least here it won’t result in slammed doors, hated family members, or even violence.

I’m not saying it’s altogether healthy. I’ve even welcomed the tombstoning of a few DUers “on my side” who went way beyond the call of reason (although I miss one terribly). I welcomed the tombstoning of one on the “other” side as well, one who has returned to DU and been a bit less hateful in the aftermath.

I tested atheism in a reasonably safe environment (college) and found it wanting for reasons I can’t identify. That strengthened my faith (which, you may have guessed, is not the Huckafallerson type of Christianity). But for those who choose it (or any other spiritual path), I feel no rancor whatsoever and I join you in the struggle for an entirely secular public society. I wish you would always be nice to us, but Lord knows (sorry) we haven’t always been nice to you and it’s not just us by any means. Stepping away from my faith for a while made me realize how much it permeates this society and why there’s a need for a solid, invisible defense that one may not realize is there but can manifest itself in the anonymous safety of DU. It’s the same face my husband (brown skinned) wears—just a little proactively defensive, but without really being aware of it.

In short, I’ve learned something valuable and I hope that you realize that I’m as secular as I am Christian. But if you don’t, I’ll try to remember this little screed of mine. And if I forget, feel free to remind me. I’ll get the Worcestshire to eat with my crow.

[Marr]

1. I assume that insults to Christianity are meant

as insults to evangelical, fundamentalist, right-wing Christians-- you know, the theocracy crowd. They very much deserve the scorn they receive and should be marginalized, in my humble opinion. Still-- people really should be clear on this, because broad insults to a group of people that may very well be on your side are just not helpful.

I've no problem with Christians or Christianity, so long as it isn't shoved into government.

Since we're talking about religion and DU, I'd just like to point out something that always seems funny to me. Religious minorities seem to be embraced-- indeed it seems like every time someone mentions they're a "pagan" or a "wiccan", they get a string of "right on, me, too" type of comments. As an atheist, it's just odd to see one religious belief structure routinely receiving a kind of kneejerk hostile reaction while another is embraced (or at least passes under the radar).

[TexasProgresive]

3. That would be OK but when progressive, liberal, Demo-

cratic voting DUers post about their faith they are often flamed as the enemy. It is tough on all sides. I am a Christian Catholic and I do not proselytize. I hope by my life's witness that some might see Christianity as a way and hopefully the way.

I am as angry as any about the hijacking of my faith by right wing nut ideologues. There are those who do it for profit, fame and even sex. That always was the case-what has reemerged in our time is political power- being the king maker. That's the role of the bishop in chess to slide on a bias and change the dynamic of the game.

[Buzz Clik]

6. Not always. There are some who simply hate Christians. Even worse...

... there are those who will attack someone simply for stating that it's okay to be Christian. "Only an idiot believes in invisible friends."

Hateful motherfuckers. Period.

[Marr]

10. Those people are being idiots.

I've occasionally heard atheists say that religion should be openly mocked, saying it's an outdated and primitive thing we'd be better off without. I've never agreed with that, but it's particularly stupid in an environment like this one. People are here to come together and (hopefully) coordinate. There's no reason to pick a fight here.

Having said that, it's not like the abuse goes one way. At DU it does-- atheists and agnostics seem to be a strong minority, if not the majority. But in real life it's quite the opposite. I mean, I was fired from a job once for being an atheist. I was only a kid (sophomore in college) at the time and had no idea that I could've sued the crap out of my employer, but still. Another employer immediately put me on all the crap jobs and started giving me terrible job reviews after he asked if I was Christian and I politely informed him that I was an atheist. I was pretty naive-- raised without any religion and I honestly didn't realize there was any taboo attached to that until I was in my mid-20's.

It's not like people are being thrown into lion pits or anything, but I think alot of people who aren't religious have had similar experiences, and it can leave you a bit miffed-- especially when people in the religious majority talk of persecution. You know what I mean.

[blondeatlast]

11. My point exactly. I find it helpful to be on the receiving end,

even when it's over the top (many times it's just discussion, although OTT happens).

I guess I can begin to understand the anger and hostility--"other" believers deal with it all the time, I deal with it here quite a bit, but not every day.

When I hear about how "persecuted" are my fellow Christians--from the RRR or even here, it just pisses me off something awful. Worse, when "liberal" C's like me buy the RRR "persecuted" talking point, they are falling for a RW trap.

[Marr]

13. Well, for what it's worth-

the finest two people I've ever known were liberal Christians. So I've certainly nothing against your beliefs, and I wish you nothing but the best.

[Goblinmonger]

2. Thanks

I thought about replying with sarcasm but decided against it.

I am a pretty vocal atheist here. Am not in real life. Wouldn't be very good for my career. Sometimes I may go over the top and I understand that.

But I do realize that I have a LOT in common with the people here even when we duke it out over religion. You and I would have a great time over a drink, talking about the world. I have no doubt about that. I also rather enjoy the argument process. We all just need to remember that we are on the same political side and, after the dust has settled, we can be friends.

Peace.

[kysrsoze]

15. We can coexist. I'm a Christian and my best friend is an atheist

However, we both believe in evolution, freedom of speech, helping the poor and downtrodden, respect for the planet, etc. I feel people can believe (or not) what they want to believe (or not) and as long as they aren't attacking others or forcing others to subscribe to their beliefs (or non-beliefs), all is well. The world is a much more interesting place when people have different viewpoints.

[applegrove]

4. Thank you for your words. I am Unitarian so I don't often feel offended myself. But

I do feel for anyone of any religeon who is getting harrassed (not including the preverbial right wing Xtians who attack anyone who doesn't believe in intelligent design, bashing gays or the union of church and state).

Thanks for airing your feelings. It is important.

[BOSSHOG]

5. I hope you don't leave

And I sincerely apologize for some of my previous posts which crossed the line of civility. I do get fired up about the attempted pushing of religious beliefs into politics and our laws. I stopped going to Mass about four years ago because every week I was being instructed to hate a different group of fellow American citizens. Gays, liberals, media members, secular humanists, those who get cremated, as well as the foreign targets, Iraqis, Iranians, and Muslims. Now the latest nonsense is the Golden Compass brouhaha. Heard on New Orleans radio yesterday an interview with a woman, who was obviously a religious fundamentalist, speaking for a group that didn't have anything about religion in its title. Bottom line, Golden Compass and its author, evil and a threat to our children. Christianity and traditional "values" good. I wanted to jump through the radio. But I digress. I will resolve to tone down my "anti" religion rhetoric. I hope you stay.

Merry Christmas. I hope you have a very healthy 2008.

[blondeatlast]

7. Oh, I'm not leaving, that's for certain. Happy Holidays!

No need to tone it down, actually--I think the mods do a great job when things get too nasty.

Seriously, I've learned much by from this--and I'm hoping that my DU Christian brothers and sisters will look at this post as much as those who aren't--but I also have a much more open mind than most--even I'm convinced of that!

[PassingFair]

8. I sincerely hope this causes you to speak out at church.

After 9/11, a couple of my close friends and family members left their
churches. I felt it would have been better for them to speak out and
let the other church members know EXACTLY how they felt.

I bet there has been an uptick in membership in "liberal" Catholic
churches. I KNOW the UU parishes have been growing.

[blondeatlast]

9. When I go, I go to a UU church. Mostly I pray at home as the UU

is considerably far away. Though raised a Presbyterian, my faith doesn't fit neatly into any dogma.

[TrogL]

12. I do my fair share of bashing

But it's the authoritarian, Fundamentalist types I'm after. I'm also developing less and less patience with the "let's all try to get along crowd".

My church is presently engaged in a schism. It extends all the way from the specific denomination I attend all the way up. The National office has finally admitted as much. As with many other schisms in the past (the Lutherans come to mind) it's basically the authoritarians against everybody else. My hope is that they will simply form the splinter Evangelical Church of Whatever and storm off in a huff. The only problem is going to be what to do about the fixed assets.

I'm simply fed up with these people.

• They do NOT understand Christianity.
  
• They flaunt some Traditions of my church and cling desperately to others that everybody else freely admits are outdated.
  
• They do not read the Bible nor do they understand anything about the Bible (eg. history, languages)
  

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Well said. K&R

"Man is the only animal to have found the One, True, God....several of them." Mark Twain