Chief Illiniwek mascot dropped

[B Calm]

I personally don't understand why people thought the Brave Chief Illiniek was an insult.

CHAMPAIGN, Ill. -- On a fall day in 1926, University of Illinois student Lester Leutwiler danced onto a football field in Philadelphia at halftime of an Illini football game.

Wearing a homemade American Indian costume, Leutwiler was the first Chief Illiniwek and began an 81-year-old tradition of performances by the mascot at football and basketball games.
Under pressure from the NCAA, activists and some students and faculty, the university announced Friday chief Dan Maloney's performance at Wednesday's basketball game against Michigan will be the chief's last dance.

The decision follows two decades of votes, studies and committee meetings aimed at easing campus division over the mascot, which some American Indians and others view as an insult and some alumni and students see as a cherished tradition.

The NCAA ended up forcing the university's hand.

Friday's decision ends NCAA sanctions that had prevented Illinois from hosting postseason sports since 2005.

Illinois still will be able to use the name Illini because it's short for Illinois and the school can use the term Fighting Illini, because it's a reference to the team's competitive spirit, school officials said.
Athletic director Ron Guenther said he was disappointed but that the sanctions hurt athletes and coaches.

"Personally, as an alumnus and former athlete, I am disappointed," he said, "however, as an administrator, I understand the decision that had to be made."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070217/SPORTS/702170445/1004/SPORTS

[GreenEyedLefty]

1. The dance was kind of kooky

But the mascot/symbol/whathaveyou was okay with me.

The Cleveland Indians, on the other hand...

[BayCityProgressive]

2. good

racist uses of mascots is wrong. How would people like it if a school mascot was a white person from a trailor or a black person with a piece of watermelon? It is just offensive. Isn't it enough that we made a holiday for the killer Columbus, and stole all their land? Now we make light of them and use them as mascots in demeaning ways.

[gratefultobelib]

3. I agree. Here we go with the word "offensive," but that's what it is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. but Chief Illiniwek was treated with respect,

and by the 1960s they were using authentic Native American garb for the costume. Maybe it's because I grew up on the U of I campus and went to the university lab school--but the history of native peoples in Illinois was taught with respect--do you know that Illinois comes from the Algonquin "Illinek" which means "men"? As I understand it, "Illiniwek" was a variation of this word. I never heard anyone using stereotypical language like "Heap big win", etc.

I have fond memories of sitting on my grandmother's back porch, which faced Washington Park, and watching the fellow who was Chief Illiniwek practice for half time. Of course, when you are 8, any dance looks "cool" and not "goofy". Sigh. Grandma's house is gone now, and so is Chief Illiniwek.

[GreenEyedLefty]

23. What made it "kooky" for me

is that a fellow named Dan Maloney is the guy doing the dance. Not that there's anything wrong with an Irish guy doing an Indian dance, but... there you go.

[B Calm]

25. I agree, he has always been treated with deep respect. He's honoring

the Indians!

[Critters2]

27. A colleague recently stopped by on her way to Starved Rock

She moved here from the East Coast, and I asked if she knew the history of the rock. I told her of the legend that the Illiniwek had been besieged by the Ottawa and Pottawatomi and starved rather than surrender. She was surprised, and said all the anti-chief people in her church had told her there had never been any Illiniwek. I told her there was not a Chief Illiniwek, but the Illiniwek or Illini were very real indeed.

And then she proceeded to correct me.

Now people will be even less aware of the history of Native Americans in Illinois.

[fishwax]

72. of course, the illini looked nothing like chief illiniwek, and the university's official policy

is that Illinois is a reference to the people of Illinois, rather than the tribe.

[Critters2]

73. That's its official policy? Can you link to that? I'd never heard that. nt

[fishwax]

78. that's been their stance for at least the last few years

Here's a pdf FAQ from yesterday's announcement about the chief. The part about the nickname is on the first page, but I've quoted below in case your computer (like mine) sometimes rebels at the thought of opening a PDF:

"It is generally understood that the name Illini is short for the name of the state from which the university takes its name: Illinois. The Fighting Illini name is a common reference to an athletic team's competitiveness and drive for excellence, as is the case with numerous "Fighting"-nicknamed athletics at other universities (e.g., Fighting Irish).

http://www.uillinois.edu/chief/FAQ.pdf

[Critters2]

80. But there really was/is an Illini tribe. Why pretend there isn't? nt

[fishwax]

84. I don't think anyone is pretending there wasn't

That was just the university's way of defending themselves from accusations of insensitivity--to deny the connection between the name and the school. It is but one of the many ways in which the university has been less than intellectually honest in their attempt to keep the chief alive.

[scarletwoman]

35. And when Indians say they are NOT "honored"? How is that "honoring"?

It's a bullshit argument. You don't "honor" a Woodland tribal culture by dressing up in Plains Indian garb and doing a fake "Indian" dance to fake "Indian" music.

If you want to "honor" Indians, then offer classes on their history and the many varities of Indian culture. There are still over 500 Native tribes in this country, with very distinct cultures and traditions.

Would you "honor" Irish people by dancing around in German Leiderhosen?

sw

[Critters2]

37. Have the Illini tribes made a statement about this? I guess I missed that. nt

[fishwax]

74. The Peoria (who descended from the illini) long ago asked the university to stop using the chief

But the university continued anyway.

[Critters2]

75. Originally, the Peoria were fine with the Chief. It wasn't until after a meeting

with students that they changed their minds.

[fishwax]

96. I'm not sure that's exactly right, and I also don't see that it changes anything

As far as I know, the Peoria didn't have an official stance on the chief until 2000, when the tribal council voted to urge the university to stop that representation. Prior to that, a couple of tribal leaders had been quoted supporting the chief, but I don't think (could be wrong) there was any official stance, whether opposed, supporting, or indifferent.

They did official condemn the chief after meeting with the students. The chief of the Peoria tribe at that time had actually been one of those quoted supporting the chief some years back, but said he wasn't entirely aware what the tradition entailed. After the students explained the entirety of the chief tradition and their opinion of the matter, he was swayed. Tribal condemnation followed.

[B Calm]

38. They teach American Indian Studies at the University..

[fishwax]

81. And the Native American House has repeatedly asked that they drop the chief

They've been a driving force behind the campaign to get the university to cease and desist.

[Critters2]

Why so focused on the chief? I'm asking seriously.

Why not the Washington Redskins, or other nicknames that are really much more offensive? I've never understood this.

[fishwax]

86. who is it that's so focused on the chief?

Other than people who are affiliated with the university? There has been plenty of uproar about the washington redskins, along with other team names. Dozens of colleges and universities have changed their names and mascots over the last ten years or so. Others, such as the Florida State Seminoles, have retained their names by soliciting and receiving the support of the tribes they represent.

But I hardly think The Chief has been unduly targeted in what has been a very long and geographically broad campaign.

[Critters2]

89. The national offices of my church--which are in Cleveland, no less-

have issued a good many statements about the Chief. Honestly. Other national orgs, too. It's never made sense to me.

[fishwax]

97. well, the last couple of years it's been in the news a bit, because of NCAA policy

opposing offensive nicknames, mascots, etc. They ruled a few years ago that schools with offensive mascots could not host post-season events. Aside from the Utah Utes and the Seminoles (both of whom are endorsed by their tribes), only the U of I and the North Dakota Fighting Sioux (I'm sure the "fighting" there refers only to the athletic dept.'s competitiveness /sarcasm) have fought with the NCAA about this, with each bringing legal action against the NCAA. When the men's basketball team made the final four two years ago, they were not allowed to bring the Chief to the postseason arenas in the ncaa tourney. Those are some of the reasons it might have been in the news lately and attracted the attention of your church in Cleveland ... I live in central illinois, so I fully expect it to be in the news 24-7 here :)

[Critters2]

98. I'm in North Central Illinois

My parents and my sister went to the U of I. So, I'll be hearing about this a lot!

[salin]

106. I lived in Ypsilanti just after they changed their mascot

from Indians to Eagles. They faired well. Shortly after that I went to grad school at Stanford who had changed their mascot from Indians to Cardinals. Again - I was there after the initial transition - and after the fights before the change - and there was very little residual animosity and none of the predictd problems. No drop in alumni support, no drop in student applications/attendance - by the time I got there (not at the time of the shift but shortly thereafter) the whole issue was a nonissue on campus and in the community.

Per your question of the Redskins, when I lived in DC in the 80s it was a big point of discussion and contention. Didn't change (though the "bullets" name has change for different reasons - but again the team didn't fold after the name change). I have no idea as to whether or not it is still an issue of discussion in DC.

I think U of I will be fine.

[LostinVA]

135. Thank you -- a Woodland tribal culture aren't Lakotas

And, that "dance" wasn't a Lakota dance, anyway.

[fishwax]

70. well, in a sense he was treated w/ respect by UI fans, but not so by fans of other schools

Also, while I think it's debatable that the chief was always treated with respect by local fans, treating an amalgam of indian imagery (who is doing a dance inspired by hollywood representations of indians) with respect isn't the same as treating indians with respect.

[Karenina]

192. The final solution...

(which is on the horizon), jes keep them damn injuns and their hypersensitive objections OFF OUR CAMPUS. They're messin' wit OUR traditions!

[LostinVA]

134. Good

[KittyWampus]

138. Nevermind, it's not worth the hassle.

[Bjornsdotter]

4. Hmmmm

...I wonder what's next.

Chicago Blackhawks...Minnesota Vikings?

BTW, the dance was incredibly goofy.

Cheers

[BayCityProgressive]

5. anything that is racist

should be done away with...no matter how "fun" it is or how many rich white guys it ticks off.

[Bjornsdotter]

8. Well I guess that's it

...for the Vikings. I mean come on....a helmet with HORNS.

Cheers

[GreenEyedLefty]

10. Yep

and the Fighting Irish, and the Celtics, and the Buccaneers, and the Raiders...

[AngryAmish]

184. Spartans, Trojans

[scarletwoman]

196. And how many Spartans and Trojans are around today?

Are there any Spartans or Trojans still existing within living cultures with real live human beings still practicing their Spartan or Trojan cultural ways and traditions?

There is simply no equivalence between representations of ancient historical peoples and vanished cultures, and a people who still exist and who still practice their traditions.

And if making mascots out of a minority ethnic group is so acceptable, why aren't there any teams with African American or Asian mascots and team names?

I'm sure most people would be appalled if the NFL had teams named the "Niggers" or the "Slopes", yet the equally egregious racial slur "Redskins" is somehow considered acceptable.

sw

[AngryAmish]

199. The same number as Illini Indians

On edit: I read in the paper today that some Greek folks consider themselves to be the descendants of the Spartans and call themselves such. So there are actually Spartans nowadays unlike Illini Indians.

[scarletwoman]

206. Not so. They make up what is now called the Peoria tribe in Oklahoma.

Here's some info:

http://peoriatribe.com/history.php

sw

[Critters2]

217. Actually, the Peoria Tribe of Oklahoma is directly descended from the Illini nt

[scarletwoman]

198. Yeah, "Buccaneers" and "Raiders" are minority ethnic groups -- NOT.

:eyes:

I've addressed the Irish and Celtics issue in posts below.

I swear, some of the arguments offered here are absolutely absurd...

sw

[scarletwoman]

13. There's a HUGE difference. Scandinavians were not the victims of genocide on this continent.

People of Scandinavian heritage are part of the privileged white majority in this country. And there are no "Vikings" living today -- unlike Indians.

sw

[Bjornsdotter]

15. I'm a viking

....and it is VERY offensive to see a helmet with horns.

Cheers

[GreenEyedLefty]

17. I'm a Viking, too

And agree with Bjorn. Very offensive.

[scarletwoman]

24. "I'm a viking" Oh really? Do you sail around in dragon ships and raid other countries?

Looted any Monasteries in Ireland lately?

I'm Norwegian. I KNOW the whole horned helmet thing is bullshit. It kind of bugs me -- but big deal; the Viking days are long in the past, the Scandinavian countries are doing just fine, and people of Scandinavian descent are NOT discriminated against in modern America.

Meanwhile, Americans Indians are STILL an underclass in this country. American Indians are STILL trying to recover their languages, their traditions, their cultural heritage after generations of genocide and suppression. Did you know that it was ILLEGAL for Natives to practice their traditional religions until 1974?

There is absolutely NO equivalence.

sw

[GreenEyedLefty]

26. Does it help that I'm Indian, too?

[scarletwoman]

29. I was replying to Bjornsdotter's post, not to yours.

As a Norwegian I find horned helmets irritating in the way that I find ANY historical innaccuracy irritating -- but that's a whole other level of "offense" in comparison to the endemic racism of White America toward Indians.

sw

[GreenEyedLefty]

50. Sorry, have a good evening!

:)

[Bjornsdotter]

34. Because you say

....it is so.

An ancestor is an ancestor...whether it's Native American or Viking.

Well, I am a viking. I have been able to go to Viking digs to observe my ancestor's graves being excavated. I have been fortunate enough to be able to handle Viking artifacts, from my direct ancestors, while they were being studied by experts. I have been able to look at the skulls of the Vikings and know , without a doubt, that I'm descended from them. Are we done with the pissing contest yet?


And yes, I know quite a bit about some of the struggles of the Native Americans. My best friend is half Choctaw, her father was a full-blooded Choctaw, a lawyer for Indian Affairs. You want to help....forget about the team mascots and fight for the Native Americans who will loose the land granted to them by the government by the next generation.

If you get rid of one, they all have to go.

Atlanta Braves
Chicago Black Hawks
Minnesota Vikings
Boston Celtics
Notre Dame Fightin' Irish

Skol

[manic expression]

56. Saying that a Viking is your ancestor

is like saying a plummer is your ancestor. "Viking" was given to people who DID a specific thing, just like cowboys, etc....

[Bjornsdotter]

60. However

...it is still used in everyday speech. If you note, I used viking....small v, big difference.

Cheers

[scarletwoman]

58. Fine. When the poor opressed Swedes & Norwegians rise up against the MN Vikings

I'll be glad to help out. And when the Irish people clamor for the end of "Celtics" and "Fighting Irish" as team names, I'll give them my full support.

It's an apples and oranges argument. Vikings are not a living ethnic group, they were a facet of Scandinavian culture long past. To go "a-viking" was to engage in a very specific activity -- that of raiding other peoples' lands or seeking trade in far-off places. It was not the whole of Scandinavian culture, it was just a particular period in their history. My own Norwegian ancestors were more likely to have been simple farmers or fishermen than to have been warriors or explorers on longships.

Notre Dame, the home of the "Fighting Irish" was FOUNDED by Irish Catholics. If they chose to name their sports team after themselves, that's hardly an offense against Irish people. And Boston has long been home to a large Irish population. When a team name reflects the ethnic makeup of its home base, it's a categorically different matter than appropriating cultural symbols of an unrelated ethnic group that has no possible say in the use of its cultural symbols.

This is not a "pissing" contest. If you want to start a movement against the Vikings football team for misappropriating your and my Scandinavian heritage, go for it. But as a Minnesotan, I can tell you that I highly doubt you'll find all that many Minnesotans of Scandinavian heritage who feel "offended" by the Vikings name for their football team -- horned helmets notwithstanding.

Because, unlike the unlucky Illini Indian tribe, who were ethnically cleansed out of Illinois generations before there ever was a University of Illinois intent on "honoring" them by dressing up some white guy in Lakota garb; Swedes, Norwegians, Danes and Finns are all thriving members of the dominant northern European white culture that still makes up the majority of Minnesota's population.

And unlike the Irish founders of Notre Dame, and the long-established and thriving Irish population of Boston; the Illini tribe had absolutely NO say or choice or input into being reduced to a phony stereotype by a bunch of non-Indians.

sw

[Bjornsdotter]

65. Well I can tell

....you that my whole family here and in Sweden are offended.

Will we rise up.....nah, we haven't fought about much in 200 years.

But if we do, I have my authentic replica of a Viking helmet, I'm ready.

Seriously....if we get rid of one they all have to go. It doesn't matter who formed the teams or selected the mascots. We can't say that _____ is okay, but _____ isn't. Where do we stop this? Have you ever visited the Wisconsin Dells? It is far worse than the U of I mascot....well, in my opinion it is.

Cheers

[Critters2]

66. OMG. Wisconsin Dells is the worst. One "Indian" attraction after another

and no hint of trying to be respectful. Completely mind-boggling.

[Bjornsdotter]

68. Exactly!

...but apparently that's okay. :eyes:

Cheers

[manic expression]

53. There is a huge difference there

"Viking" was not a race, it was a profession. The term refers not to an ethnic group, but to raiding parties which sailed to many places in the world, sometimes pillaging, sometimes settling.

"Viking" was basically the same as "Pirate", it was something that someone DID, not an ethnic or cultural identity.

[GreenEyedLefty]

55. It's pretty much accepted...

that Vikings originated from Scandinavia, and that the strapping blond Viking on the Minnesota NFL helmet is of Scandinavian descent.

[manic expression]

59. Did I say they came from somewhere else?

No. The term "Viking" does not have to do with someone's ethnic group. Both Norwegians and Swedes (perhaps even Danes) could be vikings, it was almost a career choice.

[GreenEyedLefty]

61. Now we're getting into semantics here

Of course the word "Viking" does not refer specifically to Scandinavians, but the dude on the helmet is no doubt a Norwegian who happened to pillage for a living. No offense to Vikings...

[manic expression]

67. The logo is hardly classy

If given the choice, I would change the logo in a heartbeat.

However, I still recognize that the name itself has as much to do with an ethnic identity as "Cowboys". I'm just putting that distinction out there.

[GreenEyedLefty]

69. I understand

Hey, BTW, I was just poking around the Web and looked up the Green Bay Packers just for grins. They were named for the supplier of their uniforms, the Indian Packing Company. Good lawd!!

*edited to add an accidentally omitted word*

[Bjornsdotter]

71. Yes and no

....it was an ethnic group consisting of what is now known as Scandinavia and part of Russia.

People even today will refer to themselves as "vikings".....small v. It is a way of telling others that you are proud of your background and heritage. It is used in common language....perhaps not here in the states but it is used.

Cheers

[manic expression]

77. One comment

the fact is that Norweigans, Swedes, Danes and those who became the Rus in Kiev would NOT consider themselves at all the same. Not all Norweigans, Swedes, Danes or the Rus were vikings.

I do know that the vikings are part of the Scandinavian imagination, kind of like pilgrims or cowboys in the US. Although I've never heard of anyone refer to themselves as a viking, that doesn't mean people don't.

I still say there is a massive distinction, however. Nevertheless, if I had the chance, I'd change the Minnesota logo without thinking twice.

[Bjornsdotter]

85. Lol!

<the fact is that Norweigans, Swedes, Danes and those who became the Rus in Kiev would NOT consider themselves at all the same. Not all Norweigans, Swedes, Danes or the Rus were vikings.>

:rofl: Boy is that the truth! .....and if you aren't from the area, you might not have any idea how funny that is. Very true and funny!

Cheers :toast:

[Critters2]

88. I served in an area where nearly everyone was Norwegian

(Norwegian-American, that is). The few Swedes around would bitch and moan constantly about how oppressed they were. Once they were doing this in front of some of the 'Wegians who then got all up in their faces about how the Swedes had oppressed the Norwegians for hundreds of years, and on and on. I thought there was going to be a fist fight. And I was the lone non-Scandiwhovian who'd have to break it up! Happily, cooler heads prevailed, and we all had a good chuckle over some lefse and beer.

[Bjornsdotter]

94. That pretty much

....sums it up. It's a hoot that's for sure. They are still fighting battles from over 500 years ago.

Cheers :toast:

[scarletwoman]

101. Heh. I suppose it won't suprise you that, as a Norwegian, there's a little verse that we all

love to recite: A thousand Swedes run through the weeds, chased by one Norwegian...

:evilgrin:

[Bjornsdotter]

112. Yep

.....Lol, I am very familiar with that one.

I've been racking my brain trying to remember the one about the Swede, Norwegian and the Dane ....it went something like this:

A Norwegian, a Dane and A Swede were stranded for ten years on an island. The Norwegian started a social club, the Dane started a business and the Swede was waiting for someone to introduce him to the others.

Skol :toast:

[scarletwoman]

120. LOL -- hadn't heard that one before.

Skål! :toast:

[BayCityProgressive]

6. anything that is racist

should be done away with...no matter how "fun" it is or how many rich white guys it ticks off.

[BayCityProgressive]

7. anything that is racist

should be done away with...no matter how "fun" it is or how many rich white guys it ticks off.

[B Calm]

12. I don't get what is racist about him. In 1990 the grandson of Sitting Bull

watched Chief Illiniwek and praised him and his performance.

[Bjornsdotter]

14. Outside of the goofy dance

...neither do I.

Cheers

[B Calm]

19. Chief Illiniwek's dance was derived from "Indian Lore" studies

[Bjornsdotter]

28. I didn't know that

.....you learn something new every day.

Cheers

[B Calm]

30. With the removal of Chief Illiniwek people will be even less aware

of the history of Native Americans..

[Critters2]

32. Yep. See my post #27 for an early indication of how this history will be forgotten. nt

[CBGLuthier]

33. Yeah, and Al Jolson was integral

to african american history by that logic.

[Bjornsdotter]

40. Most of what I learned

...was self-taught, I certainly didn't learn it in school.

Fortunately, my children were taught quite a bit about Native Americans.

Cheers

[scarletwoman]

79. That's just utter nonsense. There's absolutely nothing about the "Chief" that's authentic.

How does a bogus caricature -- some white guy dressed up in an "Indian" costume -- contribute to anyone knowing ANYTHING about Native American history? They may as well just watch old John Wayne movies.

feh.

sw

[fishwax]

116. I think that's an absurd and insulting argument

I saw no value in chief illiniwek as a learning tool. He had nothing to do with the Illini Indians, and most of the pro-chief students I've interacted with are thorougly ignorant about Native American history.

[Beelzebud]

139. Calling a cerimonial native american dance, "goofy", is more racist than the cheif...

[fishwax]

140. it's not really a ceremonial native american dance

and the music comes from hollywood westerns.

[B Calm]

142. No, its called a Native American Celebration Dance and .

supposedly was researched for it's authenticity.

[fishwax]

143. well, *supposedly*

The university certainly claimed, over the years, that it was authentic and researched, but I've not really seen those claims verified, and the language used to support that contention has shifted over the last several years. The university no longer refers to it as "authentic." Nor do those at the Native American House on campus.

[B Calm]

144. Why would the grandson of Sitting Bull praise his performance?

[fishwax]

145. Why would pretty much every Native American on campus oppose it

I don't know why the grandson of Sitting Bull would praise his performance, nor do I know the circumstances under which he did.

Nor do I know what that proves: if being a descendant of Sitting Bull makes one the final arbiter of authenticity or appropriateness, there is a descendant of sitting bull on campus now, and she has been vocal in her opposition of the chief.

[B Calm]

151. Do you think American Cubans should scream racism when they

see white people dressing up in Cuban attire and doing the Salsa? Just curious...

[fishwax]

155. Salsa doesn't occupy an equivalent places in cuban culture

I fail to see the connection between the two. It seems like just another misdirection.

[B Calm]

156. how about the Cha Cha, these are Cuban native dances...

[fishwax]

157. yes, but they don't occupy the same place in the culture

they have no connection to the sacred.

And the Chief Illiniwek is not a native american dance. It's something white guys do, and has evolved over the years in their hands.

So there is really no equivalence at all.

[B Calm]

159. Have you ever wanted to tell the Judge, who are you to judge?

[fishwax]

164. huh?

I guess I don't get what you mean by that.

I've never wanted to tell a minority: who are you to be offended by our representation of your people or your sacred traditions.

[Karenina]

185. Perhaps what is meant is that

the Judge with the BIG J is the dominant culture.

[fishwax]

186. haha ... yep, we all know who the final Judge of what's offensive is

they've always made that clear.

[Critters2]

20. The Blackhawks have always bothered me, but apparently no one else

I grew up in the area where the real Black Hawk (yes, there was a person named Black Hawk)lived. He was a great leader, who was first beaten in battle, then paraded around the Eastern US like a prize to be shown off, before being removed with his people from their ancestral lands.

And now he's "honored" by having his name attached to a bunch of people who almost certainly know nothing about him, much less care.

[IndyOp]

9. Alright! Now they can adopt the new mascot I've been hoping for:

THE FIGHTING WHITIES!



Shown off here by a proud team member:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. WooHoo, the Fighting Whities! Watch out for our bad ass selves.

:rofl: MKJ

[The Straight Story]

45. If the whities won the superbowl though, people would claim it was cheating

you know how us white folks cheat and all :)

Hell, I personally signed a treaty with an Indian last week just to break. Damn me to hell!

I love being white - everyone hates us and so do we! :rofl:

[JVS]

82. Seeing that the U of I football team is A) not in the NFL and B) truly craptastic...

a superbowl win would obviously be the result of foul-play

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

180. ...

:spray:

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

176. Oh please, that's bullshit and you know it.

:eyes:

[NMMNG]

220. Move over Christians and make way for the new "persecuted" class.

White folk. :eyes:

[scarletwoman]

11. Well, it's about damn time! Racist assholes!

Sone idiot white guy dresses up in a stereotype "Indian" costume, prances around in an absurd parody of "Indian" ceremonial dancing, while the band plays a stereotype DUM dum dum dum, DUM dum dum dum Hollywoond Western "Indian" drumbeat -- and you can't understand why it's insulting?!?!

American Indians have been complaining for YEARS about the use of "Indian" mascots by sports teams. When the very people that someone claims to be "honoring" tell those someones that they are NOT "honored" by the stereotyping and parodies of their culture, isn't stopping that behavior the DECENT thing to do?

It's a sickness in white American culture that seeks to own and misappropriate the cultural symbols of the Native peoples, and perpetuate stereotypes and innacuracies.

The whole Chief Illiniwek thing has been one of the vilest expressions of this tendency. Imagine, if you will, how long a "Chief Spearchucker" dancing around in blackface with a bone through his nose would have been tolerated.

sw

[Bjornsdotter]

16. I agree about the dance

...it should have been dropped years ago.

Cheers

[sweetheart]

21. chief inewetak could just explode

along with chief bikini and chief christmas.

We blow you up, and then make you famous, yes.

[CBGLuthier]

31. The biggest propblem is that it was white guys playing indian

Now close your eyes and imagine a team called the, pardon the term, fighting coons, with someone in black face doing mammy but tell me it was "honoring" black people and their love for their mothers.

I think that would not be allowed.

FancyDancing belongs to the indians. Pleae do not steal or dishonor it as so much of their heritage (not to mention 99% of their land) has been stolen.

[B Calm]

36. I guess I'll have to agree that we see this from different points of view.

Some might say that you just painted a racist view!

[CBGLuthier]

43. Explain the difference to me then

Tell me exactly how white people dressing up as indians and dancing is any different from a minstrel show?

I guess this is all just a continuation of lack of sensitivity week here on DU.

[B Calm]

49. So white people are not allowed to do a Native American dance?

[LostinVA]

147. Actually, no, they shouldn't do many of them

THey are often part of scared and/or tribal ceremonies.

And no, I white guy, dressed up as a Native Indian NOT indigenous to the area, surrounded by stereotype packaging, should NEVER do a dance like that.

It's at the very least disrespectful and ignorant.

And, it makes no difference if Sitting Bull's ancestor praised this, if he indeed did. Within any minority, you can always find those oblivious or apathetic. One of Dr. King's daughters is extremely homophobic -- just because her father was a well-known man doesn't lend her opinion any more weight than another person's.

[B Calm]

152. oh please.. Do you think its disrespectful for white people to dress

up in Latino attire and try to do Latino dances?

[LostinVA]

153. Maybe yes, maybe no -- but that's not the point, an you know it

"Oh please" yourself.

[B Calm]

154. Why isn't it a point? Latino people have been oppressed by white

people too.

[Karenina]

182. You seem to be going to great lengths

to MISS the point.

The Native American communities have had issues with these mascots for decades. In places where their sensitivites have been respected, peace reigns and the names remain. Where that has not been the case, conflict continues. To compare a bastardization of a sacred dance performed by a white student to the cha-cha, which is a social dance, is totally disingenuous and willfully ignorant. Your posts are indicative of an attempt to argue "white privilege" at any cost.

[fishwax]

102. dupe

[fishwax]

103. also that the dance itself is bogus

and the music for the dance is inspired by the indian music in hollywood westerns :)

[Critters2]

107. Yeah, it was pretty clear where the music came from. nt

[LostinVA]

146. Good post -- especially the point of the dance

Most Plains INA dances are NOT some kind of social dance -- most ten to be done at powwows or other "official" and/or sacred ceremonies. I have Oglala Lakota friends, and this kind of stuff drives them bonkers.

[Critters2]

190. But, the state park near me holds a Pow-wow every fall

Real natives come from Iowa and Wisconsin and the Dakotas, and do all kinds of dances and whatnot, and it's clearly a show for the tourists. Else why do it so publicly in a state park? It's advertised, the whole deal.

I'm really just curious...how is this not offensive? (I think it kind of is).

[fishwax]

209. I think there is a pretty obvious difference between

"real natives" sharing their culture with others and white kids doing an impersonation of that culture in a manner that the local native community has repeatedly made clear that they find offensive

[Critters2]

215. I don't see it as all that obvious. I mean, if these are deep, meaningful

ceremonial dances, why are they encouraging white suburbanites to stand around taking pictures while eating cotton candy? That seems respectful to you?

[scarletwoman]

214. Well, DUH! It's INDIANS doing THEIR own dances, celebrating THEIR own culture!

THEY are the owners and keepers of their culture. Their dances are part of THEIR heritage, and they take pride in their skills as dancers, singers and drummers. It is THEIR choice to invite non-Indians to observe and maybe learn a little about THEIR traditions.

How can you NOT understand the difference? Sheeeesh!

sw

[MrSlayer]

39. Is there a more racist team name than the "Redskins"?

Think the NFL will ever address that?

[Bjornsdotter]

41. Whoa

I thought they changed that....

Weren't they supposed to?

Cheers

[Critters2]

42. Nope. Here they are....

http://www.redskins.com/

[Bjornsdotter]

44. But I thought

...that they were supposed to change the name?

What happened? I vaguely remember hearing something about it.

Cheers

[Critters2]

46. I dunno. Maybe the people who've been obsessing about Chief Illiniwek

will now turn their attentions to the truly racist Redskins.

[Bjornsdotter]

48. Agreed

....that should be changed.

Cheers

[Bjornsdotter]

47. Found it

This article is old, but I knew I heard/read something...

<The legal battle began 13 years ago when the Native Americans, led by Cheyenne activist and District resident Suzan Shown Harjo, filed a complaint with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The complaint cited a 1946 federal law that prohibits the government from registering a trademark that disparages any race, religion or group.>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071501700.html?nav=rss_email/components

[MrSlayer]

62. Nope.

It's rarely even mentioned. I root extra hard against them because of it.

[salin]

51. I went to a pac ten school for grad school

a while after they changed their mascot away from "Indians" - and by the time I got there - it was no big deal. Alumni still were loyal - folks still attended games - the student body didn't disappear. I am sure the Illini will survive.

To the argument that the mascot (sort of cartoonish, no offense) is the only reason anyone in Illinois knows about native americans in Illinois history - are you serious? This is educational? So a few folks are familiar with a single incident means they are familiar with the history of native americans in Illinois? Wow - so that is why so many folks in Indiana are unfamiliar with the many native american tribes that once inhabited our state - we don't have a major university mascot - if we did we would all be familiar with the many tribes that once resided in our state. I bet that if the native american community whose forefathers (and mothers) resided in what is now Indiana knew this they would be petitioning colleges all over the state to score a college mascot - all so their history would suddenly be known and revered, and perhaps then their legacy and broken promises from the Govt would be acknowledged and made good on - because all of that happened in Illinois, didn't it?

[davsand]

52. It was time for the Chief to go.

I posted this over in the LBN thread already, but I'm putting it into this discussion as well:

Frankly, I'm glad it is done.

While I was not especially involved in the issue WAAAAY back in the early 80's when I was working on my undergrad. I do remember seeing an awful lot of cartoon Chief stuff on people, I also remember seeing the Chief on beer cups, baby bottles, shot glasses and on everything else you can dream up. I do not have them still, but I was gifted once with a pair of orange tennis shoes with the Chief on them.

When I was in school, I went to a few games (but not many.) At the time I remember thinking the Chief's performance at halftime was kinda cool, and that the screaming crowds generally were happy to see him. I didn't GET the whole mania that accompanies fan-dom for a sport--still don't really--but I'm kind of strange that way, I guess.

When they first began talking about the Chief locally and the "Anti-Chief" activists began to be visible, I was pretty apathetic about the issue. While I generally agreed that it IS pretty disgusting to be seeing a cartoon of any cultural / spiritual leader on crap like beer mugs and jockey shorts, I also didn't really understand why some folks felt the appearances at halftime were such a disgrace.

My lack of understanding was further compounded when there was a big deal about how some Native American man MADE a new Chief outfit and presented it to the University. Gee, if it is ok with him it must ok--right?

The argument about the Chief just never ended. Year after year it kept on coming up, and year after year the University Foundation kept arguing that they'd get less in funding from alums if the Chief was retired. I'd see a lot of the university students out there working to retire the Chief, but I never saw a lot of change in the attitude of the Foundation.

Finally, I came to a point where I realized that the people who were the most vehement about KEEPING the Chief were the ones who had never gone to school there. The Foundation was handing out a load of crap. The alums give money because they went to school there NOT because of what the mascot is. I was seeing "Save the Chief" stickers and T-shirts on people who had NO freaking connection to that university at all. That realization brought me to the following point:

This is a school mascot we are talking about. The choice of the mascot has absolutely zero impact on improving the education available at that school and every opportunity to HURT the school if it erodes academic credibility (can you imagine how the Anthropology Dept feels about this subject?) or if it offends the students who are PAYING to attend that school. In this case it is clear--from the years of argument that have surrounded this subject--that the choice of mascot IS, in fact, creating a problem.

It was time for the Chief to hang up his moccasins.

Just my opinion.



Laura

[Critters2]

64. I, too, grew tired of the arguments.

When I was down there, I generally stayed out of the discussions, mostly because I couldn't get too invested in it one way or the other. You're right--it's a school mascot. I heard the arguments from both sides, and just decided there were bigger issues to concern myself with. I honestly never saw the point in all the hyperbole from either side. So I had no opinion.

And, I can still hear the arguments from both sides. In those moments, I tend to play devil's advocate against whichever side is loudest at the moment. But, in general, this always struck me as a non-issue.

But maybe that's because my school mascot was a big bird named "Reggie". That's something to proud of...or apathetic about.

[davsand]

136. Hon, I've never known you NOT to play Devil's Advocate.

Seems to me that I really never saw you that you were apathetic or sitting on a sideline on any issue that was actually important. It was one of the many things I cherished about you!

:hi:


Laura

[Critters2]

187. I honestly did try to stay out of the Chief stuff,

because I saw that it was so important to so many, but I just couldn't see why. I respected people who felt passionately about it, so I just tried to stay out of their way. I know they assumed I was "with them" on this, and that was okay, too. I was too busy trying to fix the health care and justice systems. After those were squared away, then I figured I'd look into the whole chief thing.

And, obviously, I still have that work to do!

Thanks...I cherish you, too!! I really do intend to come down on my day off and just see a few folks there some day soon. As I've been saying since the dinner.

Speaking of which, is there a date set for the dinner yet?

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. My friend went to a school whose mascot was The Trojans

She said their opponents threw condoms on the football field.

Now there is a case for a mascot name change. LOL

[B Calm]

208. Hopefully no big bird lovers will be offended with your school mascot..

[Critters2]

216. Someone must have been

When I was there (Illinois State) he was "Rudy the Redbird". Now he's "Reggie". Apparently, "Rudy" wasn't seen as quite masculine enough. :eyes:

[B Calm]

218. Ha Ha

[JVS]

76. especially after the death threats last year, it's time to get rid of him

[Critters2]

83. Death threats?! This I hadn't heard.

Geez, talk about taking things too seriously.

[JVS]

99. Yeah. Some hothead went off on a pro-chief facebook page about...

how mad he was at one of the leading anti-chief activists and his rhetoric crossed the line into threats.

[Critters2]

100. Wow

:wow:

That's a bit much. One of my anti-chief friends became VERY angry with me when I said I'd worry about the whole chief issue two days after we achieve world peace and feed all the starving children.

Tempers do run high. But death threats?!! Yikes!

[JVS]

104. Oops, I'm sorry. It was threats of violence, but not death threats.

Still, unaccptable.

Here is a link
http://www.nah.uiuc.edu/newsletter1_18_07.htm

[fishwax]

111. that was a pretty horrible incident, but I've seen and heard similar sentiments numerous times

in relation to the chief issue--not overt threats of violence, but rather the attitude that, by opposing the chief, activists were simply creating more racists, because pro-chief fanatics who didn't hate indians now would certainly hate indians for taking away their precious symbol. That attitude, though not so strident as the facebook posts, was way too common.

[Critters2]

114. I was called a racist when I said I didn't really care about it.

It seemed impossible to be neutral in the eyes of many.

[Qanisqineq]

54. it's about time

I went to grad school there until 2004 and got so tired of the fighting about it. They should have dropped him long ago.

[Cabcere]

57. Something I don't understand...

I go to the College of William & Mary, and we call ourselves the "Tribe." Many of the products bearing our logo have two green and gold feathers. Recently there was a big PR uproar over this, and it was decided that the nickname "Tribe" was okay, but that the feathers weren't. :shrug: I know local Indian tribes were involved in the Tribe decision, but I don't know if they played a role in the feathers thing as well. I guess the feathers were too stereotypical, or something? :shrug: The student body was a little upset about that decision, and one group on campus (I think maybe it was the cheerleaders?) went so far as to get sweatshirts printed with the phrase "I've Been Plucked," which they then sold at home football games. :P Seems like our campus is a hotbed of "scandals" this year...there's also the whole Wren Chapel Cross Debate, but that's another story.

[scarletwoman]

92. Because feathers are still part of very sacred ceremonies and have deep spiritual meaning in

many Native spiritual traditions.

How would people feel if a school named their team the "Jewboys" and used a menorah as their logo on t-shirts and shot glasses? Would you find it hard to understand why that might be considered offensive?

sw

[Critters2]

95. What if they were give a kippah by a Jewish gentleman for the mascot to wear? nt

[scarletwoman]

109. And would your hypothetical Jewish gentleman be acting on behalf of all the Jews in that community?

Would he be doing this with the approval of his synagogue?

I think you're making a specious argument.

sw

[Critters2]

110. NO, I'm drawing a parallel with the Native American who provided the costume for the chief

in 1982.

[Cabcere]

118. My apologies.

I was not aware of the spiritual significance of the feathers. Thanks for enlightening me.

[scarletwoman]

128. You're welcome. No need to apologize, you didn't know. (nt)

[XemaSab]

132. Some feathers have deep meaning and some don't

Not all feathers are sacred to the Natives. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

148. Exactly right about the feathers -- great post!

Actually, all of your posts in this thread have been very interesting.

[scarletwoman]

219. Thank you. I've really appreciated your posts on this thread as well.

I was given a first rate education on this and other Native issues many years ago. Until his untimely death in 2000, my partner, an Ojibwe, was the cultural liason for his tribe in the local public school system.

sw

[LostinVA]

224. I have Oglala Lakota friends on Pine Ridge

My friendship with them has REALLY given me more than an academic understanding of all of this, and other Native American social and culture issues.

[undeterred]

63. I went to Illinois at Champaign Urbana 75-80

and all the students got REALLY drunk during the football games. So that was disrespectful. The football players LOST most of the football games, which was why the students got so drunk. And I don't remember a blinkin' thing about the chief.

[terrya]

87. Nstive Americans should not be mascots for sports teams.

Christ, haven't they suffered enough indignities in their history in this country?

I'm glad the U of I FINALLT dropped Chief Illinwek. Long, long overdue.

[Critters2]

90. Do you feel the same way about the Black Hawks? nt

[terrya]

91. Yes

[cascadiance]

105. What about the "fighting Irish"?

Some might construe their mascot as demeaning to Irish folks too, which also have had a difficult history as immigrants in this country too.

[scarletwoman]

117. Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics. U of I was NOT founded by Indians.

If Irish people were to express disapproval of the Notre Dame team name and mascot, I'd certainly support their efforts to change them.

But, however discriminated against the Irish were in the past in this country, the fact is that nowadays they are part of the white dominant culture.

The Native peoples of this country, on the other hand, are STILL experiencing widespread racism and discrimination. There is simply no equivalence.

sw

[cascadiance]

121. The problem is, who decides and how do we know who's offended?...

The Central Michigan Chippewas have an "out" since the nearby Saginaw Chippewa tribe have indicated their support in exception to the ruling. But did they take a vote, or was it the tribe's leadership? How was that decided? Perhaps there are still many offended tribe members... Many Irish descendents might similarily be offended too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Michigan_Chippewas

[scarletwoman]

127. Here's a pretty simple rule of thumb: if your mascot is a representation of an oppressed minority

ethnic group, and your school/team/whatever was NOT founded by or primarily composed of that particular ethnic group, then you have no business appropriating that group's identity for your entertainment.

It's not respectful, it's cultural imperialism.

sw

[cascadiance]

129. So should CMU's Chippewas have to give up their name?...

If your rule of thumb was followed, they would, even though CMU has "support" from the local Chippewa tribe. It doesn't sound like the tribe was involved with founding the University though.

[scarletwoman]

131. Well, if the local Chippewa tribe has given their okay, then it's up to them at this point.

At least it demonstrates that they had some input into the usage of their identity.

sw

[cascadiance]

150. I think I'm with that...

If you could get a representative consensus of an affected community to vote support for a respectful usage of some image/icon of theirs, then that should work. I think though, it somehow needs to be a democratic decision (i.e. - votes from all who are affected, and not just those making the decision to support it being a part of that community). For the same reason, if a majority of Irish folk don't like the way Notre Dame provides a mascot, then perhaps that should be used to help with this too. The problem though is trying to identify "all of the Irish" then to get a good representative opinion, and not just a select few.

I think sometimes that also affects artwork too. If you try to open up whether someone's allowed to create a work of art based on how many people it offends, it might really restrict artists too. There has to be a healthy balance, and some degree of tolerance, but when minorities are involved, it is always harder, since majority opinion of the society at large in that sense isn't always necessarily the right thing to do.

I've got mixed feelings about the Illiniwek decision. On the one hand, I feel that Universities or other entities that try to use Indian names, etc. should do every demonstrable way possible in ensuring that they contact those that they affect to make an honest effort in providing a respectful treatment of that group's heritage or stop using such icons. If they don't then they definitely should be taken down. On the other hand, sometimes I think we in society get overly sensitive about things too.

I'm happy that finally "Death of a President" is coming to the U.S. soon on DVD later this year. Even though some will question its being "disrespectful" to the president, if you watch it (and I have a region 2 version of the DVD now), it is more than just a "let's see Bush get killed" DVD. I feel it is an honest attempt to explore how our government might respond to such an event and for the viewer to be shown how that transition to a state where the Patriot Act, etc. is out of control could happen. I wouldn't want works like that being censored because of a labeling of it being "insensitive".

The same goes for Turkey's "Valley of the Wolves: Iraq", which still you have to get a region 2 version in order to see it here. It provides a good way for Americans to see roles reversed from what they are used to seeing in Hollywood movies of us always being the good guys in action films, but Americans are still being kept from seeing it.

[5thGenDemocrat]

222. I'm a Central Michigan alum

And when the NCAA decided to pitch a bitch about the school nickname, the Chippewa tribe cordially invited them to mind their own business. The school and the tribe went over this ground years ago (like before I attended there and I'm 50 now). Back then, the tribe only asked the school to ditch the spear-and-feather logo which used to grace the football helmets, circa 1975 (which CMU did immediately), and not to employ a mascot (which CMU never has and never will).
The tribe and Central Michigan have a wonderful, symbiotic relationship. The Saginaw Chippewas contribute a hefty chunk of the profits from their Mount Pleasant casino into a general scholarship fund at CMU and are proud to have the name attached to the university. In turn, the university and its students and alumni, myself most certainly included, are very proud to be Chippewas.
If anyone besides the PC police of the NCAA are offended, I'm not aware of it.
John
As an aside, it was the Saginaw Chippewas (among others) which Jack Abramoff ripped off during his Washington bribery spree. You can bet your bottom dollar they're a whole lot more pissed off about that.
As another aside, the Treaty of Saginaw (1819) which established the reservation at Mount Pleasant and opened this part of Michigan up to settlement, is perhaps unique in the annals of American history for having been honored on both sides to this day, both in letter and spirit.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

171. Exactly. Spot on post.

:thumbsup:

[5thGenDemocrat]

223. Notre Dame was founded by the Congregation of the Holy Cross

Who were French.
John
The rest of your post, regarding the dominant culture, is still spot on.

[Demo_Cracker]

93. Good

[fishwax]

119. Welcome to DU

:toast:

[Tatiana]

108. It's about time.

Native Americans felt it was disrespectful and cartoonish. Personally, I was apathetic about the whole situation, but I don't think it's a good practice to parade a mascot that is offensive to the people it is supposed to represent.

[Beausoir]

113. UND....North Dakota...is next. Let's hope. The Sioux Warrior is sacred.

I am a UND grad.

I admit to loving and respecting the Sioux mascot.


However, the Sioux and American Indian population at my college felt VERY different about it.


I respect their opinion.

Time for a change.

[Critters2]

115. Isn't there something offensive about the word "Sioux"? I know it isn't their

own word to refer to themselves.

[scarletwoman]

124. Yup. It's a French transliteration of the name given to them to by the Ojibwe -- it means "enemy".

Actually, one of my Ojibwe friends told me the original idiom was something like "snake in the grass" or "sons of bitches" or "dog eaters".

The French fur traders, as they moved west, encountered the Anishinaabe (Ojibwe) first. When they asked who that other tribe was, the Ojibwe of course replied that they were the "enemy" -- the "other tribe" being the Dakota.

sw

[Critters2]

125. Really? I speak French, and I'm not familiar with the word at all. nt

[scarletwoman]

126. Well, it's an English transliteration of a French transliteration of an Ojibwe word.

It's been awhile since I researched the etymology, but that's the basic origin of the word. You could look it up for yourself if you want more detail.

sw

[fishwax]

122. I hope you're right

but they're still fighting the NCAA.

The UND and Illinois have been the two strongest holdouts to the NCAA's policy on discriminatory mascots. To me there always seemed something slightly more sinister about UND's resistance, given that they have a couple of reservations fairly close by and the state's role in the Indian wars of western expansion.

In Illinois it seemed a matter of supreme ignorance--so many times I heard things like "they should be happy we honor them, otherwise nobody would even remember the indians"; having grown up in a western state myself, and knowing the attitudes of many towards the reservations and the native americans, the response of UND seems more of a beligerence, an intentionally aggressive indifference to the minority position.

Of course, I know nothing about the situation "on the ground" at UND, so I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am. That's just how it seemed to me from afar.

[scarletwoman]

130. You're quite correct, the UND position IS particulariy belligerent.

There is still alot of virulent anti-Native racism in both North and South Dakota, so some of the "indifference" is really more of a "fuck you".

UND was actually moving in the direction of softening their stance a few years back, but then some bigshot alumni wanted to donate a HUGE sum of money to build the University a new hockey arena -- with the ironclad stipulation that they HAD to keep the "Fighting Sioux" team name.

I can't remember his name right now, but he was a right wing asshole. He had a huge collection of Nazi memorabilia, and used to throw big parties on Hitler's birthday.

Anyway, UND caved because they wanted that new arena.

I followed the whole thing while it was going down. It was just disgusting. And of course, now that they sold out to this fascist asshole they've totally dug in their heels on the name issue.

sw

Here's a couple of articles about it:

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/coleman.html
http://archive.salon.com/news/sports/bounds/2001/03/08/north_dakota/index.html

[Beausoir]

133. Ralph Engelstad.....he was a genuine Nazi. Loved the Nazis.

He built a palace for the UND Sioux to play hockey in. And he demanded that the Sioux mascot, a warrior in full face paint, etc, be placed EVERYWHERE in the arena. He even placed the warrior on the floors, so people walk on it...deliberately.

He tied his donation to a promise that UND will never change the name or mascot. A real bigot and racist.

Fortunately, he's dead now, but UND still won't see the light.

[fishwax]

141. wow, thanks for that info

:wow:

I had no idea that was the history behind the university's decision to continue battling the NCAA. It always seemed like an odd move, but ... :puke:

[fishwax]

123. Yesterday was a great day for the University of Illinois

'Bout time. :woohoo:

[scarlet_owl]

137. Good. But now I have to listen to people here in Urbana

whine about it.

[fishwax]

158. yeah, but they were whining anyway

all those "Chief: yesterday! Today! FOREVER!" stickers on SUVs around town :puke:

[Bronyraurus]

160. The New Jersey Italians

would be a great team. They could wear strappy Ts and carry around bread and wine, and swing big gold chains around their necks. I would root for them, and dig on their Italianness.

[B Calm]

161. Non Italian's would scream racism. Can't have that...

[fishwax]

162. but would italians scream racism

the way native americans have screamed racism at their portrayal by the U of I?

[B Calm]

163. I doubt it.. I don't see them complaining about the Soprano's on HBO

[fishwax]

165. and would you care if they did?

[B Calm]

166. I would look at who was complaining first!

[fishwax]

168. why doesn't who is complaining matter to you in the chief case?

[B Calm]

170. Over the years I have seen very few Indians doing the complaining

[fishwax]

179. In only two years on campus, I've seen them leading the movement

The Native American House has been very active in opposing the chief, and I'm sure are very happy that it's gone. There are relatively few Native Americans on the UIUC campus, but as a community they've hardly been silent on the issue.

[Bronyraurus]

173. Italians have complained

about the Sopranos, but I was not one of them. Look, the Italians ran organized crime in the US for many years, and they are still fairly prominent (albeit in a diminished way). Why ignore that? Are movies about black and hispanic gangs racist? No, because they document a real phenomenon. I'm half Sicilian and lived in NJ for 10 years, and graduated from Rutgers. Guidos are a part of life there, and a somewhat enjoyable one.

I wish everyone could relax a bit more about their ethnic identity. Polls have shown, I think, that the vast majority of Indians don't give a rat's ass about sports team names.

[B Calm]

178. Exactly.. My grandmother was full blooded Cherokee.. That don't make me

any more credible on this subject, but I'll be damn if I'm offended by a school mascot.

[Karenina]

200. Hats off to Oma

But I be damned if you haven't lived your life as a "full-blooded" WHITE American, as it has served you. First cousins once removed
notwithstanding.

B Calm, you couldn't even B Bothered to spell the Chief's name correctly.

"I personally don't understand why people thought the Brave Chief Illiniek was an insult."

[Bronyraurus]

205. Zing! n/t

[fishwax]

181. pretty different situations, of course

the history of Italians in American, while they certainly faced discrimination, is not parallel to that of Native Americans.

And while polls may have shown that most Native Americans don't care about the names in general, the Native American voices on campus were consistently united in opposition to the chief, and major native american organizations across the country were in agreement with their goals.

Some people still liked to pretend that it wasn't offensive. Others simply didn't care. Neither of those strikes me as an attitude I'd want to endorse, but that's me.

[Bronyraurus]

183. That may be so

and of course, it is. But when a team adopts an Indian chief as its mascot, it's a tribute. Why adopt a figure to be mocked?

I think the reflexive backlash against this is due to the fact that people don't like a tradition to be overthrown because of a small group of complainers who don't represent their (or any) demographic. There is a resentment against those who forever present themselves as victims, and I can say that I understand the resentment. It's fashionable to be a victim these days, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The Irish, one of the more historically miserable ethnicities in the world, have largely chosen to humorously embrace their reputation for being drunken brawlers (as in the Fightin Irish). Italians (generally) laugh at the stereotype of the macho gangster or gangster wannabe. People respect that attitude. What people don't respect is a whiner, especially if the whining prevents them from getting their football on.

[fishwax]

188. the real whiners in this situation are the ones who can't let the chief go

WAAAH! I want my chief back! :cry::eyes:

IMO, they're the ones who have really presented themselves as whining victims with respect to the chief. I've lived in the area around the university for about two years, and I've heard plenty of victim mentality from them. They want their Chief, dammit, and they don't care at all that the people they're supposedly paying "tribute" to don't consider it a tribute at all. That's the attitude that isn't worthy of respect.

[Bronyraurus]

193. Not to get too deep into this, but...

There's a difference between arguing against a policy change and forcing change on others because your feelings are hurt. Only one involves presenting onesself to the world as a victim.

[fishwax]

207. yes, there's a difference, but both sides can present themselves as victims

you have the language in your own post: "forcing change on others."

That's the victim language of the pro-chief crowd here in town: Waahh! They're forcing change on us :cry:

[Karenina]

195. This is one of the most ignorant

arrogant, white supremacist posts I've read on this thread. See how all the white steroetypes are just accepted as humor. Why can't those redskins react the same way? "We" RESPECT the whites at whom we poke fun. Dem injuns and their injuries be fuckin wit OUT TRADITIONS and we don't like their whining. No sir. NOT ONE BIT.

[Bronyraurus]

202. Thanks for that subliterate response

You missed my point, made earlier, that most native Americans couldn't give a rat's ass about sports team names, as polls consistently show. That attitude is respected by people, and is held by majorities of any ethnicity I can think of, not just the "white" ones. If you had read more carefully before launching into your rash accusations of racism, maybe you wouldn't be feeling like such a dope right now.

[Karenina]

225. If the Native American STUDENTS

who attend the school give a rat's ass, it's an issue to be addressed.
That has now been done in an appropriate manner. CASE CLOSED. :hi:

[Bronyraurus]

226. So are you

backing off your claims that I'm a real, old-timey white supremacist?

[Karenina]

227. Tschüß!!!

:hi:

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bronyraurus]

203. Yeah

I don't care one way or another. My point in these posts is to try to explain the resistance to these changes, which a lot of people don't understand, and which is too glibly chalked up to racism (as you have done, I see. Thanks.). I didn't go to any one of these schools, so I don't give a hoot. But would it be so unimaginable for someone to demand that the Rutgers Scarlet Knights be renamed because it presents a militaristic, Eurocentric image? I'm sure it's already happened. I would oppose it on the grounds that I theoretically oppose the removal of the Illiniwek mascot: political correctness sucks.

And again, it's worth pointing out that most native Americans don't mind one bit about these teams. It's a handful of people who really get all keyed up about it.

[fishwax]

210. for what it's worth, renaming the illini isn't currently an issue

[Bronyraurus]

212. Thanks, dood

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

169. They HAVE complained about the Soprano's. They've picketed the show.

I live in NJ and it's been in the news MANY times about their portrayal on the Sopranos. There was also an uproar over Kean's offensive "Politicos" ad, that smeared Democrats as being Italian mobsters. It definitely helped Menendez win the senate.

[B Calm]

172. So where does this all end? We no longer can have westerns, mob

shows, etc etc because someone might get offended?

[Bronyraurus]

175. Screw that. As Picasso once said,

Good taste is the enemy of creativity!

[Bronyraurus]

177. So

Take that, you PC jagoffs!

[Karenina]

189. Damn all them minorities to hell!

We was jes' having some FUN! WE be "recognizing" them! Ain't they got no sense of humor? Who are THEY to express an objection to our caricatures? THEY should consider it an HONOR! Hell, I usta be supportive but now they done gone and pissed me off!

[Bronyraurus]

191. Speaking of caricatures...

[Karenina]

194. Turnabout is fair play.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x231988

[Bronyraurus]

204. Ha

I'm coming unarmed to this racial/sexual bitchfest. I don't have my grievance with me.

[fishwax]

211. your language indicates otherwise

"racial/sexual bitchfest," whiners, et al ... I think your grievances are showing through just fine. :)

[Bronyraurus]

213. Ha!

Fair enough. But they're of a different kind!

[Beelzebud]

197. Thats exactly what some would be happy with.

If you are never offended you aren't living in a free society.

Thought Crime

[LostinVA]

167. You mean the NJ Guidos

Hey -- I'm Half Sicilians and grew up there.

[Bronyraurus]

174. Me too

Rock on.

[Dastard Stepchild]

221. I recall this debate going on for quite a long time....

I have several friends that attended U of I in the 1990s that mentioned this. It may have extended back even further than this. I never got the sense from them that, at the time of their attendance, it was much of a tremendous issue, but that could be because they formed their opinion, lodged it, and then didn't mention it further to me.

My high school did something similar. We were the Redskins for many years, and voted to change the name to some kind of bird during my junior year. I don't think there was a tremendous amount of dissent from many of the students - more of the dissent, interestingly, seemed to stem from parents. Not entirely sure why.

[cascadiance]

228. Groups are complaining about the San Diego State Aztecs too....

Is the university as noted here in this article making an honest attempt to try and work with native Americans to properly present the Aztec name, or should they also be shut down too?

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=521