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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:45 PM
Original message
I've personally been robbed or burglarized (at least) 13 times in my
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 01:46 PM by Zorra
lifetime.

I also once surprised a burglar in the act of stealing my car stereo, and another time caught someone in the act of prying a screen from the window of my home. I have been chased down a street in LA by three men, and had a friend that I was traveling with point a rifle at the men as they were chasing me, the act of which turned them around and made them run the other way instantaneously.

The police have never caught any of the people that robbed or burglarized me. None of my property has ever been recovered.

Granted, because I travel a lot, sometimes in other countries, I am in some situations that are not the most secure. Still, that doesn't make it OK for someone to steal my property. And some of these incidences occurred in relatively secure places.

Frankly, I'm pretty angry, and sick and tired of dishonest people, who I strongly suspect are most often drug addicts, taking my property. It is a violation of my person, and some of the things that I have had stolen were very personal to me, as well as instrumental in how I earn my living. Now, I really don't believe that material things are worth killing someone over, but after repeatedly being ripped off I almost find myself thinking, well, heck, Joe Horn was justified in shooting those two thieves.

Recently, I was traveling in the Southwest US. I asked a (temporary) neighbor in a small rural town where I was staying if I had to worry about crime. He laughed, shook his head, and said, "Nope. There is no crime here. Everybody here has guns, and we all know how to use them."

I believe that in the US, our society and criminal justice system is so focused on a misguided, time-consuming, and ineffective "war on drugs" that it does not address the root causes of crime, and can neither prevent nor solve the majority of crimes. Further, in reality, our society's approach to the issue of crime actually fosters the continuation of crime and criminal recidivism.

I'd really love to be able to vote in a sane approach to solving the drug problem and preventing crime, but punishing crime seems to be so much more politically popular among the more conservative element in our society than preventing crime that it seems that legislating change is not an option.

So anyway, I have some questions, because of the discussion here of the "Joe Horn Incident":

If someone is about to rape me, or you, or your child, or I catch them taking my property or your property, would shooting them be justifiable? Because of our arcane approach to the whole problem of crime, the police can't, and don't, really protect us from criminals. Where do we draw the line at protecting ourselves, our property, and our neighbor's property?



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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gotta get comfy for this one...
:popcorn:
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. I've been seeing you with a lot of popcorn lately.
you must be thirsty by now. Here :beer: now move over and share that popcorn.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. U.S. Law is firmly based on property ownership.
Many people forget that.

This is why the law in Texas pertaining to the Horn incident seems shocking to most DUers.

I think most people will respond that is ok to kill the guy about to rape you, but not ok to kill the guy about to rob you.

While I applaud these people as truly peaceful folks, the truth is that is proper to kill in both cases. Both morally, and legally.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. he wasn't about to be robbed
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I disagree with you so strongly that I would applaud your going to jail...
...for killing someone to protect your property, and I'd support any legislation making such "protection" illegal.
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CT_Progressive Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yet, its legal in all states.
And legal to do it for a neighbors property in Texas.

Go figure.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. vicarious living
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. OK, since you asked-- I think it is perfectly acceptable to defend one's self...
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM by mike_c
...and others from criminal violence, although my personal preference is to temper that acceptance with the understanding that people who do not use good judgment about getting into those situations should bear the burden of proof that their responses were proper. On the other hand, no amount of property is worth taking someone's life over. I've been the victim of numerous thefts too, but I would NEVER want to see anyone killed or hurt to "protect" my stuff.
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. IF there is
direct physical threat of
potentially imminent death to
you or your family, I can see
taking action, even shooting IF
the situation is dire enough.
Property can be replaced so,
I cannot see possibly killing
someone over it.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. if you don't see a substantive difference...
between property crimes and violent crimes against actual people, then there's not much I can say to you.

Shooting someone who is harming you or another person may well be justified if there is no other way of dealing with the situation. Shooting someone over property is nowhere near the same thing. It's stuff for chrissake. I don't own anything that's worth taking another human being's life over.
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Property crimes can easily become violent crimes against people
when the thief realizes that the homeowner can identify him. I wouldn't shoot over property, but I know that if someone came into my house and I stared him right in the face, that I could be in danger. And I'd be totally freaked out that my kids would walk into the room. :(
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. I certainly wouldn't shoot anyone stealing my stuff...
or shoot someone thinking 'maybe' they might steal someone's else's stuff.
we all have too much stuff anyway.
but I wouldn't hesitate a moment with that trigger in some of the cases you put forth.
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Stewie Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. Really?
"I certainly wouldn't shoot anyone stealing my stuff...we all have too much stuff anyway."

Give me your address. I'll be right over.

When are people going to realize that kind of attitude is why we end up with deadly home invasions? As far as I'm concerned stealing someone's property is no different than rape or assault. It's a sick disregard for your fellow human being.

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. a missing tv is not the same to me as
rape or assault.
you just go ahead and shoot someone over your precious 'stuff'. what the hell do I care I won't be taking it.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. Personal Violation, Sure, But It Doesn't Justify Killing, Necessarily, Ya Know?
Keep in mind, it is our cultural conditioning, this ownership thing.

My last car, someone broke a small back window insert, and stole a crappy stereo. I covered the window with a plastic grocery bag for five years, rather than replace the window. At that point, my attitude wasn't just 'well it would only get broken into again ...' so much as "anyone who needs anything in *this* car so badly that they'd break in, in order to get to it, needs that thing more than I do.

The ballsiest woman I ever met came home and found a junkie in the act of stealing her television. My friend offered the junkie a glass of wine. They sat down and talked it over. The junkie left, and left the TV where it was.

Shooting someone for breaking in might make you feel better for getting back at someone who fucked with you, but it's not a deterrent unless *everyone* does it.

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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. To state rape or assault are no different than stealing property
tells me you have been blessed and have not been raped or assaulted. I unfortunately do not share in the same blessing and know the vast difference between them. You also don't know too many facts regarding deadly home invasions and how they differ from run of the mill burglaries. You are twisting what really took place in this incident to justify a murder.

patty lame's wife
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
75. No way
Take my property, it's one thing. Assault my person, that's entirely different. I am in much greater fear of that than just stealing my stuff.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. I hear you --


Fortunately, using lethal force to protect yourself, loved ones, or others from death or grave injury is permissible in all US states.

And many states have provisions for using lethal force to stop specified felonies.

The line is drawn with the law of each state as they should be.

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Mutineer Donating Member (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. As long as it's legal for you to protect your property (or your neighbors),
in your state. . . blast away. I have no issue with it. I refuse to be on the side of criminals.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is just my opinion.
I think if you are robbing someone and you are subjected to a violent reaction from either your victim or a bystander you should have no cause to complain and no right to sue. Within certain limits (such as prolonged and repeated vengeful acts of violence against the perpetrator) I would consider the violent reaction to a robbery a form of temporary insanity that was brought on by the perpetrator.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. When I was a kid, our house was burglarized while we were in it
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 02:21 PM by aint_no_life_nowhere
We were watching TV in the living room while burglars were in the bedrooms at the rear of the house. We later found a bedroom screen in the alley. My mother's purse, my coin collection, all of our passports and identification documents like social security cards, jewelry, and several other items were taken. If a family member had gone to the bedroms and walked in on the burglars at the time, I hate to think what might have happened. Maybe a murder. I've also been robbed at gunpoint in Los Angeles in a parking lot, with the trigger on the revolver actually cocked and the gunman telling me I would die if he found no money on me. I've had my car stolen from the driveway in front of my house. I have had another car broken into with the stereo removed, while I was inside a shop in broad daylight. On another occasion, I've found another car of mine with the driver's window broken and the ignition pulled almost completely out. It cost me $300 to have it towed to my mechanic's shop.

And many years ago, I had a girlfriend whose mother was killed. Her mother's name was Eva Mack and was a lawyer with her own office in Los Angeles. One day, a robber came into her law office in broad daylight to rob her. After that, the robber shot her to death. It made the local papers.

There are a lot of sick and twisted people out there who resort to violence. There are some who even look forward to physically hurting others. If anyone has ever had a loaded gun pointed at their head like I have, they know that it's an experience where the seconds go by like minutes. I don't know what the answer is to the crime problem we have. I would hate to have to shoot someone. I'd probably be sick over it for the rest of my life. But I know that there are criminals who would think absolutely nothing about it (and might even wear it as a badge of pride) if they shot and killed me or a family member in the act of a crime. I think people just can't judge until they are in that type of situation.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. my house was robbed
while i was in it too. i was asleep in my locked bedroom, with earplugs because of a loud party next door, when i heard a loud noise (thru the plugs). i thought it might be the water heater, so i leaped up and dashed into my living room, surprising 3 young people who had already taken several things. they were about to take the teevee, but made a mad dash to the front door (they had come in thru a screen on a side window that hadn't been secured properly - got that fixed!!) i grabbed one of them by their hood, but he slapped me away and knocked me off balance and they all went thru the door, running down the street with me screaming at them. i was darn lucky that they weren't armed! it's scares me to think of it now!

i've been robbed about 6 times in my 52 years (all as an adult).
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. I've been mugged four times. Knife, gun, push-in, lead pipe.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 02:15 PM by aquart
2 losses, one win, one draw.

Still don't carry a gun.

My mom's been robbed twice, surprising the thief still in her house the second time. She let him go without trying to kill him and he returned the favor.

But when she suspected, and confirmed, that her neighbor's home had been robbed, she followed the thieves, got the license plate, got the street, brought the police there and later identified the thieves in a lineup. The goods were returned. The thieves are still alive. But in jail.

In New York, we value life first. Doesn't mean we don't fight and win.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. Were you playing the board game, Clue?
All's that is missing is the candlestick. :evilgrin:
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. you forgot pipe wrench and noose
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 07:03 PM by wuushew
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. I draw the line at making strict distinctions between a body and a piece of property
You, apparently, do not.

I do not consider threats to my property to be the same as threats to my person, and I think conflating rape with burglary is stupid and destructive in the extreme.
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. People have always taken from others. Get used to it because it will never stop.
My business has been broken into several times.
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. Let's put it like this...
If *I* catch you about to rape *my* wife, daughter, son, sister, niece, mother, cousin or anyone else in *my* family, or one of my neighbors, you won't have to worry about the cops or going to jail because I'll kill you myself, right where you stand. Period. If I don't catch you in the act, but find out who you are afterwards, you had better pray to whoever the fuck you pray to that I don't find you before the cops do. Forget the cops, forget the "law" and forget the "justice system". I'm a firm believer in handling my own affairs and taking care of my own family. I guess that makes me a supporter of vigilante justice.

If I catch you in my home stealing *my* stuff that I've worked *my* ass off to pay for, you won't have to worry about the cops or going to jail. You'll be dead. Period. As far as I'm concerned, *you* gave up *your* rights when *you* decided to commit a crime and *you* broke in to my home.

If I catch you in my yard trying to steal my vehicle or my boat, you won't have to worry about the cops or going to jail. See above about *you* giving up *your* rights... Just because *you* are too sorry and/or too lazy to work for what *you* want or need doesn't mean you are entitled to *my* stuff. If *you* have a habit to support, GET A FUCKING JOB! Sell some dope to pay for yours, prostitute yourself, or do anything you have to do, other than stealing, to support yourself and your habit. Back in my younger days, I had a $1000/day cocaine habit. I NEVER ONCE had to steal the first thin dime to support myself and/or my habit. You're not going to live off the sweat of *my* brow.

For any of you who want to flame me for this... save your breath, I don't want to hear it because I simply don't give a damn what you think. The bottom line is this: Yes, anything I own is worth *you* dying over... if you try to steal it from me. I hate thieves with a passion. Pure and simple. You won't change my mind or my feelings, so spare me your righteous indignation and mock disgust. I've been robbed at gunpoint more than once, and I've been carjacked before. The one poor schmuck who tried to strongarm rob me got his nose, jaw and both arms broken for his troubles. I've been shot, cut, and had bar stools and pool cues broken over my back and head in barroom brawls. There are a couple of people who are no longer on this earth because of me. I own that fully, and I have no remorse or regrets about their passing. When given a choice between "you or me", it's going to be "you" every time... or I'll die trying. I won't go down without a fight.

Until you've walked a mile in *my* shoes, don't you DARE try to judge or criticise me for my stances. I've worked hard and turned my life around in the past 16 years, but some old habits die hard, especially where self defense and self preservation comes into play. I do my best to live a very peaceful, stress free and drama free lifestyle now. I have helped others in need in the past, and continue to do so to this day. If you're cold, I'll give you the shirt off of my back. If you're hungry, I'll give you the food off of my plate, but by god, if you try to *steal* it from me, I'll put you out of your misery.

PEACE!

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Amen
and amen.
:hi:
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canucksvt Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Ghost in the Machine...
I am with you. You said everything I would have.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. You seem like a reasonable person, mind if I ask you a question
because this happened to me once. I told my friend Manny he could borrow some stuff from my boat to go fishing, PVD's, tackle and nets he needed.
We had just moved into a new neighborhood where everyone has boats in their driveway, this being Florida and all, and my neighbor has a very similar rig as mine. Long story short Manny went to the wrong place and the guy called the cops and he went to jail, him being a mexican and on probation and all.

My question to you is: is it shoot first and ask questions later? Under your scope would my buddy be dead, and all?
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:05 PM
Original message
That's a very valid question, and thanks for asking it... I can honestly say that
under the circumstances you described, Manny would still be alive with no worries. Being born and raised in Miami, I know that a lot of homes in neighborhoods look alike there. If someone was in my yard, taking stuff out of my boat, I'd walk outside, pistol or shotgun in hand, and ask them "what the fuck do you think you're doing?" Their words and/or actions would decide what happened next. If they stepped towards me in a threatening manner, they'd be shot.

In your case, being new to the neighborhood and all, Manny probably still would have gone to jail if I didn't know you and/or couldn't get in touch with you to verify his story. If I knew your name, and Manny could tell me your name, he might not have gone to jail. It wouldn't be too awful hard to look in the driveway next door and see a boat almost identical to mine. However, where I live now, I don't have that problem. There's 12 houses up here on our hill. My family and I own 6 of them and we know everyone else who lives here. We know who visits whom, who belongs here and who doesn't. If there's a strange car in a driveway up here, phones start ringing with us checking on each other. There's only one way (road) in and out of here...

Now... if I woke up in the middle of the night and found your friend in my house, he'd be shot, no questions asked. You don't "accidentally" enter the "wrong house" in the middle of the night, especially when all the doors are locked. If you're in my house in the middle of the night, you broke in... period.

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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. Bravo
:applause:
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
54. I don't know where you live, but you need to move to a quieter neighborhood.

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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. After reading these I realize I have been lucky
I haven't been robbed in my home (once things were taken out of my dorm room, but nothing valuable, and I didn't lock the door).

I was robbed recently of gas. I bought a locking gas cap. I won't judge others who are angry because this made me angry and it was so minor! I can't imagine how violated I would feel is someone broke into my home.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. You aren't really allowed to criticize criminals around here or support the right to
self-defense or that of most others.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Well, I think we are allowed to criticize criminals and support the right to
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:09 PM by Zorra
self-defense, but having a thick skin is a real plus when posing difficult questions (or having "unpopular" opinions), given the diverse and sometimes volatile opinions/dearly held beliefs by folks here at DU. Sometimes folks don't think things all the way through before they respond with a personal attack when one of their dearly held long term beliefs is reasonably challenged.

I can empathize with both sides of this argument, and it really helps further drive home for me the necessity of reinstituting effective democracy in the US.

It seems to me that the line between person and property is not quite as black and white as it appears on the surface. Situations vary. Some people, because of their spiritual beliefs, might "turn the other cheek" under almost any circumstances, but might react differently when faced with an actual desperate survival situation or repeated deprivation of property without recourse. Being deprived of property on some levels can, in all reality, be life threatening - just look at Iraq, or most dispossessed native cultures. In fact, we would probably not be having this discussion if some folks did not believe that the protection of their homes, property, and land, and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, needed forceful protection in order to establish a reasonably just government and relatively stable society.

"By nature's law, every man has a right to seize and retake by force his own property taken from him by another by force or fraud. Nor is this natural right among the first which is taken into the hands of regular government after it is instituted. It was long retained by our ancestors. It was a part of their common law, laid down in their books, recognized by all the authorities, and regulated as to circumstances of practice." --Thomas Jefferson
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yeah, well, you might have noticed the vituperation some have thrown at me when I
fail to cry unconsolably and flagellate myself with a cat o' 9 tails over some dirtbag thief who gets deservedly
whacked. But let somebody hurt a dog and they're all ready to line up and lynch the poor fucker. A big hunk of DU
is populated by nutcases.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Except that's got nothing to do with self-defense.
You didn't fail to cry over somebody who deservedly got shot, you hypocritically failed to criticize a murderer.

You had it coming too.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. That's because they have FALLEN for the republican propaganda that democrats...
mollycoddle criminals and they are just following the script written for them.
Fucking idiots.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Mmm, no.
It's because we don't mollycoddle (?) murderers.

Sorry.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Mmmm...Horn has not been convicted...
yet you refer to him as...a murderer. He is certainly a killer, but it has not yet been determined that he is a murderer.
Is he not also deserving of due process?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Neither were the people he murdered.
"Is he not also deserving of due process?"

Using your logic, somebody should go up and shoot him. He's a murderer on the loose.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. There you go again...it has not been determined that Horn "murdered"
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:17 PM by mitchum
the people who he killed. Notice that I said "people", not burglars.
Logic? Fuck...I'm more concerned with precision of language. I will leave "logic" to those miserable ones with their miserable tautologies.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. "I'm more concerned with precision of language. "
I don't think you're concerned with either language, or justice.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. To be truthful, I really don't give a fuck about your opinion of my "concerns"
I just really don't, man
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. To be truthful...
it seems like you're trying to be tough on burglary, soft on murder.

I don't know if you think that makes you look macho, but it doesn't.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. LOL! Whoever you're fussing with is on my ignore list so I have no idea
what the dumb sonofabiatch is pissing & moaning about.
:D
:rofl:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. You have someone on ignore?
That's hard to believe. You're wiling to put a bullet in someone for stealing your car but you put a DUer on ignore for saying something you don't agree with?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No, I put people on ignore for being dumbfucks.
...
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
76. This kind of praise certainly doesn't help.
Makes me wonder if Moore didn't include it simply because it would give the Repubs more ammo rather than because no one would believe it as claimed....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. I've been lucky--I've never been robbed or mugged.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. Minimum necessary force is a reasonable standard.
"I've got a gun" is preferable to blasting away. A warning shot is better than killing someone. Wounding an assailant is better than killing him.

I don't advocate the death penalty in the justice system, so I'm not going to issue blanket permission for private citizens to kill--particularly when the ony crime involved is theft.. I do, however, reluctantly support the right to bear arms and even to use them to protect lives and property. Weapons are a huge responsibility.

There is no line to draw, as every situation is different.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. the only people around here that deserve to be shot are deer hunters
sorry 'bout your luck
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. So you've been robbed 13 times and the burglars never caught?
You should move to Pasadena, Texas. Preferably next door to Joe Horn. He can blow them away for you. No questions asked.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
33. my car was stolen in 2004, after i got over being pissed at myself for leaving my
prescription sunglasses and ***entire*** cd collection in my car my first thought was "Oh please let them not find it or if it is found please, please, please let it be totaled". My husband's car was stolen in 1990 and my dorm room in college was burglarized, i have never felt angry enough to shoot any of the thieves because when it comes down to it it's only stuff.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. I guess I've been lucky
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 04:24 PM by djohnson
I have rarely been robbed. I think I had a bike and a boom box stolen so far. I've just had every thing else stolen from me before having a chance to obtain anything, any sense of self respect and liberty taken away by real estate barons and corporations who make simple things in life like a home unaffordable.

But we can't very well shoot them. It's much easier to shoot a petty burglar stealing a bike.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. Rape is justifiable lethal force, burglary isn't. You shouldn't link the two.
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Bethany Rockafella Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I agree.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. There can be a burglary for the purpose of committing rape or any other crime
A burglary is commonly defined as the breaking and entering of a structure with the intent to commit a felony. Any felony, not just a theft. If someone breaks into an apartment to rape the woman who lives there, it's a burglary and a rape. The thing that bothers me is that you never know the intent of the burglar you might confront, until he carries out his intended crime. If his intent for burglarizing your home is murder, rape, vandalism, theft, or serious bodily injury, can you afford to wait until he carries out his intended crime? In other words, although burglary is itself a crime, it is a crime in order to commit another crime once inside. Can you afford to find out just what purpose the burglary has? What if he saw your child at the mall, followed her home, and broke into your house to kidnap her?

As for me, I can't see myself even being able to shoot someone. I find guns frightening. But given a confrontation with a night time intruder, who knows? I might grab a baseball and kill them with it. But whatever I do, I know that, on balance, I would prefer to gamble on the side of the safety of my family.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. I linked the two purposely, in an attempt to better gauge where
DUers draw the line on what criminal acts justify the use of lethal force according to their personal ethical sensibilities.

Predictably, it seems that is more acceptable to shoot a rapist than it is a burglar.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
41. Depends on the circumstances, state laws vary
Rape? Shoot for sure.

Just stealing stuff? No way.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
46. Go ahead and shoot!
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
48. Yes.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. Small town, no crime, We Take Care of each other
has next to nothing to do with guns.

If you put raping children and stealing property in the same sentence, then you're already lost in my estimation.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. Do you live in a gated community? n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. lol, no, not by a long shot
I live in a small town.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Heh, ok, just had to ask.
:hi:
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
52. It must suck to worry about things like that.
I don't play such scenarios in my head. I pretty much take things as they come.

The times I've resorted to some sort of violence to protect my property I've always felt sort of rotten afterwards, or extremely lucky that things didn't escalate into something I couldn't control. Believe it or not, when you are handing your wallet over a robber as calmly as you can, with an intense awareness of what's going on around you, than you are the one in control.

Other than that, I've practiced a sort of calculated avoidance of situations like that. If something happens, and it looks like I'm about to be victimized, I try to get the adreneline surge to work my brain rather than my muscles. I don't like blood at all, especially my own blood. I don't know how one might practice that attitude short of a Pink Pantherish sort of surprise ambush by Kato.

The problem with the shoot first mentality is that it makes bad situations more dangerous for everyone, and where I live it seems that having a gun only increases the chance of someone breaking into your house, because guns are what the most violent criminals are after.

People watch too much television. I think that explains most of these discussions.


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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
58. No I wouldn't murder them
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
63. "Nope. There is no crime here. Everybody here has guns, and we all know how to use them."
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 09:05 PM by depakid
Gee, the crime rate is SO low in areas where there are so many guns. Like Texas- or Florida, for example....

:sarcasm:

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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
65. Raping a child is comporable to stealing property? Okay.....
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. No, I never said, or wrote, that. n/t
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WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
69. Ignorance, desire and attachment are the root of all suffering.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
72. I don't have a problem with self defense.
If a person chooses to break into someone else's home or property, they do so at their own risk.
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God23 Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
73. Fuck that, you need to move. I'm 54 in a redneck area and have never
been robbed or burglarized.

I think I would have moved after the 2nd time.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-29-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
74. I've had cars stolen or broken into
I never knew if the perps were caught or not. They caused me a great deal of inconvenience.

But I can't say I give a shit who they are or if they were properly punished. They didn't hurt me personally, just my property. And property (important as a car can be, in this society of no public transportation) is not enough for me to care or even feel vengeful. It's just stuff. I don't see any need for the unknown perps to die.



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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-30-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
77. Depends on what they're trying to steal.
My laptop (and EHD) is (are) valuable more for a small amount of the stored data -- stories, ideas, etc... -- than the actual parts. I'd kill someone to keep them from getting away with it. (Hell, I'm nervous just leaving the damn things when I go to the bathroom or go for a coffee refill.)

I'd kill someone who tried to steal my replica weaponry, because everything in it (while not high-quality) is out of production and would be difficult bordering on impossible to replace without massive costs.

I have yet to hear of thieves who'd steal books from a private residence, but should any exist, they'd be dead meat.

I might maim someone to keep my CD collection or my car, though, but I don't think I'd kill for either.

Past that...not really.

Let me note that my prior commentary has dealt with public thefts.

Home invaders, on the other hand, are not people you should take chances with, since if injured/arrested may well return with friends at some later date to kill or maim you or your family/pets. Killing them is more a safety precaution than murder, and is treated as such legally.
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