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Who was the first neocon?

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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:41 AM
Original message
Who was the first neocon?
There doesn't seem to be agreement, if you do a search on "first neocon."
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Satan. nt
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negativenihil Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. C'mon...
Satan isn't all THAT bad.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Leo Strauss
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. ding!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. Nope, Carl Schmitt, who Strauss studied and Hitler employed.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 10:14 PM by BeHereNow
"Leo Strauss's teacher, Carl Schmitt, a philosophical opponent of liberalism as well as a supporter of Nazism, argued in his 1932 work The Concept of the Political that the enemy is an essential construct of any political regime. Only belief in a mortal enemy can unify the populace and invest the regime with meaning. Schmitt deplored liberalism's attempts to dissolve the idea of the enemy by emphasizing peace over war; in Schmitt's view, liberalism undermines the very meaning of the political here (Schmitt 1996 <1932>).
Whatever the validity of Schmitt's views, these ideas have been filtered down through Strauss's influence on the neoconservative movement (Drury 1999: 81-96)."
http://www.lsus.edu/la/journals/ideology/contents/neoco...
BHN
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. they follow Leo Strauss but he was much earlier
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. In that case I'd have to say Aristotle
Time to get this crystal clear, Leo Strauss is a Classicist but he is not a neocon, or a nazi.

The fist neocon probably was Bill Crystol's dad.

Oh one more thing, for most of them... they were Trotskytes before they became Neocons
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Evil doesn't have a start date (n/t)
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Does it have an expiration date?
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Judgement day, although no one knows when that will be (n/t)
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. do you really believe that, judgement day
the church still is that my father started way back in '52 or so. I remember all those sermons about how everything I liked was bad etc and how I just one day realized I don't believe any of this, I think I was around 13 or so years old when I made that realization. Those hellfire and brimstone sermons used to scare the hell right out of me too. as I look back on it it was probably child abuse actually, those sermons. for the record my dad was never a preacher and never claimed to be one but he sure wanted to be though

anyways
peace
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. Greedy Eve who just had to take a bite from the forbidden apple........
and as usual with coaxing from a slippery snake.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. Cain
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Cain
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. Niccol Machiavelli
In the same way that the Nazis idolized Nietzche, neocons (most notably Leo Strauss) idolize Machiavelli.
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RebelSansCause Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. the Nazi's distorted Nietzsche and his sister who published his later works under
his name after he had gone insane/died was a huge anti-semite. Nietzsche himself, on the other hand, was not. He actually denounced anti-semitism as stupid and ignorant. The nazi's then used his works and the works his sister had published under his name falsely. Friedrich Nieztsche was in no way, at all, the first Nazi.
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I didn't say Nietzche was a Nazi
but there's no denying that the Nazis twisted his philosophy to suit their purposes either.
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RebelSansCause Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. it's implication is obvious
you say niccolo machiavelli was the original neocon, that strauss was a follower of his and many people are claiming that strauss was the original neocon. thus your nietzsche + nazi philosophy leads to an obvious place.
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Well, that's not what I meant by my statement
I didn't intend to draw perfect parallels in every phrase of my statement, and I sure as hell know what I meant when I said it. I don't think you have better insight into my intentions than I do myself. You can condemn my statement as a faulty analogy, but I never said Nietzche was a Nazi - didn't believe it when I wrote it, don't believe it now.
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RebelSansCause Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. i am not saying i understand you better than you do
my purpose was merely to make sure that all of the people reading these posts do not come under the conclusion that Nietzsche was in fact the original Nazi. i certainly hear it today when i talk about him and i believe it to be a common thought. i just worry about spreading a false delusion because it appeared to be a logical conclusion that one could draw from your post. sorry if i offended you.

it's the people reading it that i am worried about.
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Hey, no problem
After looking back at my post, I see where it could be construed as calling Nietzche a Nazi. My intent was more about drawing a parallel between the neocons and the Nazis from the standpoint of perverting philosopies to suit their purposes. Cheers! :toast:
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RebelSansCause Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. quite, we don't want the neocons to have us fight with each other
when we clearly oppose them! (not in the sense that enemy of enemy is friend of course) yet another reason to detest them! ah, you neocons, so clever you believe yourself to be, yet i see through you. ha!

lol. :toast:
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. Genghis Khan
the word "neocon" hadn't been coined yet, but he ruthlessly invaded country after country willy-nilly, for no purpose other than the thrill of conquest.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Thrill of conquest is inaccurate.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 01:39 PM by ieoeja
Your description would be apt for his successors. But not for the Genghis Khan himself.

China interferred constantly in Mongolian affairs. Having learned China was behind the murder of the Khan's father, the Khan nevertheless tried to establish friendly diplomatic relations and trade with China. But the Chinese murdered Mongolian traders as well as the diplomats the Khan sent to talk to the Emperor.

Following his first conquest of China in response to their murdering the Mongolian diplomats, the Khan returned to the steppes. As soon as the Khan was out of their hair they again murdered the Mongolian ambassadors left behind. This prompted the Khan's second conquest of China and decision to retain control of China.

The entire expansion of the empire under the Genghis Khan was a repeat of these circumstances. Every kingdom/empire the Khan conquered was a direct response to the murder of Mongolian ambassadors. Conversely, the Khan never once murdered visiting diplomats.

The Khan was easily the most enlightened ruler in his time and region. But his is the only instance in which the losers, not the winners, wrote all the histories. Which is why these facts tended not to be popularized.

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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. This only goes to prove my point...
Having learned China was behind the murder of the Khan's father,

Or in other words, "He tried to kill my daddy!" :-)

Nice history lesson, though. Keep it up and you'll have me joining the Genghis Khan Appreciation Society!
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. My first response would be Leo Strauss,
but it is true that his ideology is built on that of Machiavelli. So, it's a draw.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. And you are wrong on both, he is a trained classicist, and his model is
Aristotle, not Machiavelli... he draws most of his work from the CLASSICS... just as Machiavelli did, to a point. After all good Ol' Nicholo was also drawing from OBSERVATION and his own life.
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. Neocons
They have existed since imperialism began. Therefore, Neocon ideology is arguably the most un-american American political philosophy out there right now.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Who was the first person to say this land here, this is mine
and you're going to work for me, and this guy is going to make sure you work for me? To make sure he makes sure, I'm going to pay him with what you make working for me. Just to make sure you don't try anything tricky, you have to buy your food and water from me too. In addition to that, you have to pay me to live on whatever land you live on, or else I'll get the other guy to kick you out.

The mysteries of life.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. I was going to say Cain too....
but I think Lucifer came first.
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Bright Eyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Irving Kristol
Although Machiavelli wasn't certainly an inspiration.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. That's right - Irving Kristol, William's dad.
He coined the term, I believe.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. DING. DING. DING. DING
give the man a cigar
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. Scoop Jackson. . . . . . .n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. Pontius Pilate?
:shrug:
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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I thought he wanted to free Jesus.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
34. Toms de Torquemada
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. Toms de Torquemada dupe posted while being waterboarded.
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 06:18 PM by alfredo
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Benedict Arnold?




Like Dumbya he sold out the military and his country for his own personal gain.

But unlike Dumbya Arnold served in the military and actually saw combat.



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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
39. Hitler?
Pinochet?
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Hitler's idol- Carl Schmitt
Edited on Wed Nov-28-07 09:54 PM by BeHereNow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt
BHN

On edit-
Might want to read this too- "The Return of Carl Schmitt" written in2005
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/11/return-of-carl-schmi...
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CAG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-28-07 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
42. This guy...

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