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Taking Marriage Private: WHY do people — gay or straight — need the state’s permission to marry?

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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:40 PM
Original message
Taking Marriage Private: WHY do people — gay or straight — need the state’s permission to marry?
from the NY Times:



Taking Marriage Private


By STEPHANIE COONTZ
Published: November 26, 2007
Olympia, Wash.

WHY do people — gay or straight — need the state’s permission to marry? For most of Western history, they didn’t, because marriage was a private contract between two families. The parents’ agreement to the match, not the approval of church or state, was what confirmed its validity.

For 16 centuries, Christianity also defined the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s wishes. If two people claimed they had exchanged marital vows — even out alone by the haystack — the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married.

In 1215, the church decreed that a “licit” marriage must take place in church. But people who married illictly had the same rights and obligations as a couple married in church: their children were legitimate; the wife had the same inheritance rights; the couple was subject to the same prohibitions against divorce.

Not until the 16th century did European states begin to require that marriages be performed under legal auspices. In part, this was an attempt to prevent unions between young adults whose parents opposed their match.

The American colonies officially required marriages to be registered, but until the mid-19th century, state supreme courts routinely ruled that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage. By the later part of that century, however, the United States began to nullify common-law marriages and exert more control over who was allowed to marry. .....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/opinion/26coontz.html?_r=4&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin



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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. you don't need their permission...
but you do need their certification if you want it to be "legal" in the eyes of the state.

marriage has historically been more of a business arrangement than anything else.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. The state has to enforce the legal rights of the partners. Therefore, it's involved.
If the partners get no new rights and lose no old rights, then I suppose it could be private.

However, there are lots of rights (usually property or child custody and maintenance related).
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. there's also "common law" marriages.
and two people can consider themselves "married" to each other without state sanction- or they could be secretly wed by a minister, to be married "in the eyes of (their) god"(kinda like mel gibson as william wallace and his bride did at the beginning of 'braveheart').
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's not so much as who has the "right" to marry, it's about the special rights
that "legally married" people get.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think it's also about the lure of forbidden fruit
I was married for over 10 years.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. My partner & I are in our 27th year, approximately...
we're not really sure of the exact date and it isn't important really. Summer 1980 is about as close as we can remember. :D

It's all cool
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I know a couple of men who have been in a monogamous committed relationship since 1970
One of them is a realtor, the other a Roman Catholic priest.

I love those guys! Usually only the realtor dude shows up at one of my neighborhood bars.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. My BF actually spent a year in SD back in ~92, experimenting.
We got back together though. ;-)
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qdemn7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Quite serious here...
Why should only TWO people have those rights? In this day and age with women outliving men, why shouldn't two or more senior women marry one man? I really don't see a bit of difference in the argument. Either the state has the right to regulate marriage or it doesn't.

One reason I have always thought, since three people can incorporate, if three, or more people got married, they can incorporate as a family corporation and thus cut their taxes.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting. A lot of bad things started happening in the late 19th century.
Eugenics, for one thing. The state started nosing around in marriages when the government decided that "some people" weren't good enough to procreate. People were denied marriage licenses on the basis of all kinds of things - being poor, being developmentally disabled, being ill with a physical or mental disease, being from the wrong place, having the wrong kind of name, being rumored to have "loose morals," and so on.

It's only within living memory that some states stopped forcably sterilizing people deemed "unfit" to procreate, usually women consigned to mental asylums for a variety of reasons, often having nothing whatsoever to do with mental illness.

Not coincidentally, the entire concept that "homosexuality" was wrong arose in the late 19th century, when laws began being enacted and enforced against it.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Actually,
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 12:27 AM by PDJane
Homosexuality became a sin in the 12th and 13th centuries. Thomas Aquinas was one of the seminal thinkers in that development.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. There were few laws against it though, and even those were lightly enforced.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not quite.
In the thirteen hundreds, one observed instance of a homosexual act was enough for a death sentence.

Bishop Atherton was hanged in 1640 for the "crime" of sodomy, as was his lover. Mervyn Touchet, Earl of Castlehaven, was hanged with his two menservants in 1631. Edward Rigby was entrapped and hanged in 1698. The long and depressing list goes on. Lesbianism has never had the same kind of stigma. According to a divine of my acquaintance, it's because there was no seed spilled in these relationships, therefore no hypothetical child was harmed.

It's a very warped way of looking at the world.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. 1640 and the start of the English Civil War??
That is always a bad date, it indicates something else was the reason, Homosexuality was probably just an excuse, money was the real reason. Parliament and the King were in or entering into armed conflict and as part of the Conflict people went after their enemies for any reasons (and both Parliament and the King went after anyone they believe they could get money from).

1631 was during the sole rule of King Charles I, who ruled WITHOUT Parliament, and was noted for forced "loans" and fines and confiscation if possible (Without Parliament he could not raise taxes, but Charles I could entered into "loans" and collect "Fines" and "Forfeitures"). While the Charge was Homosexuality the reason could be Charles saw someone he could legally rob if he made the accusation. i.e. the thrust was probably MONEY not that the defendant was a Homosexual. Charles I was forced to Call Parliament in 1640, for he had exhausted all his other sources of Funds, this lead to Civil War of 1640-1648, given Charles previous high handed acts to raise money (and ended with Charles I being Executed for Treason).

Now the 1698 victim is after the "Glorious Revolution of 1688", which started the the War of English Succession, which lasted till 1697 (And predates the War of Spanish Secession which started in 1701). England again had two claimants to the Throne, William and his wife Mary and Mary's Uncle the former King James II (Who had been overthrown in 1688, but had invaded Ireland in the 1690s, he was the second son of Charles I, executed in 1649).

Again the issue which side did Edward Rigby support? I suspect King James, which would give King Williams all the reason he needed to frame Rigby on whatever crime William could find (And Homosexuality is easy). 1698 is a Key year, England and gone broke fighting the War of English Secession the previous year and needed money, looks like someone was an easy target.

My point is the POLITICS of the 1600 can explain these executions better than Homosexuality. Remember Politics trumps all.

War of English Secession (1688-1697):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Grand_Alliance

War of Spanish Secession (1701-1714):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Homosexuality was always a sin, but Catholics hold to a Hierarchy of Sin
Catholic doctrine divides sins into two broad Category, "Severe Sins" the term used in the new Catechism (old term was "Mortal Sins) and "Sins" (Old term as "Venial Sins").

A Severe Sin is some violation of the ten Commandments. All other Sins are "Sins" (Old Term "Venial Sins"). Now the Catholic Church has expanded some of the Ten Commandments, for example "You will NOT commit Murder" has been viewed as including Abortion. "You will have no other God Before me" had been viewed as anything that attacks the Hierarchy without just cause. Rape is Covered by various commandments about NOT taking someone's property or to attack anyone (i.e. your body is your Property and if someone "takes" it via rape, that is the same as any other attack, a Severe or Mortal Sin).

Homosexuality is NOT listed in the Ten Commandments, thus unless it is some form of "attack". Example of such Attacks in the bible include the case with Lot in Sodom and Noah who was raped at the end of the book of Noah (a part NEVER included in the Children's version of the Book). Another set of such "forced Sex" was what St Paul condemned in his letters (Through the King James Version seems to indicate an attack on any Homosexual relationship, the letter was to address the issue of going to the local pagan temple and using one of the slave boys as a sex slave. One must note that the slaves did NOT have the option of saying NO and thus such forced sex was the exact sin St Paul was condemning. St Paul's letter may or may NOT have meant to include all homosexual activity, but St Paul was responding to one early christian's communities concern based on the pagan religions practices in their city, NOT homosexuality itself and St Paul's letter can be viewed as responding to that activity not Homosexuality itself).

Thus the issue for Jews and Christians has been people forced to do homosexual acts, or are victim of FORCED Homosexual attacks. Such assaults are violation of the ten Commandments in that it is forcing someone to give up "property" i.e. their own body. The Bible actually never condemns ANY homosexual activity IF BOTH PARTIES AGREE TO IT (such consensual activity is not mentioned at all in the Bible). Homosexuality is still viewed as a sin, but a Venial sin NOT a Sever or Mortal sin.

As to the comment in Leviticus, as to killing any men you see having sex together, that has to be viewed as something more than two men agreeing to have sex. Most people I know do NOT have sex where other can see it. In the days before modern Communications, it was common for people to do acts in public that sound silly today, but was required at that time for people to understand what was going in. Examples of this can be see in the Military formation to this day, the Commanders stands in Front and the troops follow his lead. The commanders actions tell the men what to do as if an actual spoken order was given. In pre-WWI days, when radios and Phone were NOT common, commanders would often give orders NOT only by what they said, but what they did. Swords were carried by officers long after they were ineffective as fighting weapons, as a way to give orders to their men when the noise of Battle prevented anyone from hearing any spoken orders, the men watched their commander's Sword.

In even earlier days, even after the invention of the printing press, but more so before that time, people would "tell" hugh number of people of a command" relationships, by visual displays. For example when a King knighted someone, most people could NOT hear what the King said, but could see the King touching the Knight with his sword and slapping the Knight in the fact (This signified two things, the right of the king to discipline the Knight AND the acceptance of the Knight of that right to Discipline). In even older days, you had King walking on their subjects, but these "subjects" were generally the nobility of the King's country, in affect he was showing to all who could see who was in charge (and the nobility was showing the people who was second by being stepped on).

When you read Leviticus, you have to remember the above was the norm, thus why would two men have sex so that other would see them? There is some evidence of Egyptian and Phoenicians religions had such acts as part of their religious ceremonies. This seems to be why Leviticus wants such men killed, not for the Homosexual acts per se, but what that act meant in term of nationality and religion (which in Ancient Israel, like most ancient countries, were one and the same). The Bible does not give special acknowledgment to anyone who killed a Homosexual, but does contain the passage from Leviticus. Given the wording, which implies it is the PUBLIC HOMOSEXUAL ACT that is subject to the death penalty, I have to say the problem was NOT homosexuality but a refusal to permit people who own allegiance to someone other than Israel (and this includes Foreign Military might) into Israel.

As to the switch to greater punishment of Homosexuals starting during the Reformation that had more to do with who was in charge then anything else. The Bible is a weak source for such attacks, but Leviticus is by far the best for such attacks, but given the above background, physical means of communications were still being used till the mid 1800s. It is only in the mid 1800s that you had something that could communicate such statements of Command better than such physical communications (i.e. Newspapers which took over most of such roles). Now in the Renaissance such physical "statements" were while known (and were still being widely used, and even used today). Thus Leviticus in the 1500-1800s would be understood to indicate such activity as an ancient type of POLITICAL ACT not as a prue sexual act.

Most attacks on Homosexuals in the 1600s can be based on attacks on supporters of the King, more than on Homosexuals per se (Through King James I was allegedly a well known Homosexual, even through the King James Bible was done under his Command). It is hard to get evidence of Homosexual activity based on the fact someone has to tell the authority he participated in such activity. Most time I read of such "Confessions" it smacks of something someone made up about someone, that the court wanted to frame for other reasons (tied in with a disfavored political group and I do NOT mean "Free all Homosexuals" groups). It is a good crime to charge someone with, as J Edger Hoover commented Homosexuality is hard to prove or disprove. If you can get someone to said he had sex with X, then X has to show a Negative, that he NEVER could have had sex with the person accusing him of having sex. Thus homosexuality had been mostly used to get at someone, you had no other evidence against, but you wanted to get rid of. It is a Catch all, hard to prove and hard to disprove and as such the perfect way to attack someone.
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. free market should apply to relationships and to the economy, right?
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peacetheonlyway Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. that was then.. this is NOW
there are over 1000 rights conferred upon married families.

one such large one is the right to visit your spouse in the hospital.

there are many tax and legal rights , and of course health insurance, etc.

I live in washington as a gay person and so am very proud of the citizens to lobby and get 4 of these said 1000 rights going, but the truth is we still have a LONG LONG way to go.

if you look in europe, it is also the case that rights come with CIVIL union, and these rights are what gay people want.

more importantly for marriages in one state to be valid and apply the same rights in another less evolved state such as georgia.

bottom line, you make a nice historical point, but the social pressure to marry is often now a practical consideration.
it's just financially and legally smarter to sanction your marriage thru the state.

thanks for your thought provoking post.

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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Protections Under The Law For Probate, Child Care, And Health Issues
For example, if you get sick and are not married, many states will not recognize your partner has rights to your estate that are naturally conferred by a marriage license.

Why do you think divorce attorneys get involved in divorce cases?

To sort who gets what under the law.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-27-07 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
17. A couple of over-simplifications in his paper.
Edited on Tue Nov-27-07 01:27 AM by happyslug
First, during the Middle Ages, the Church as more important to more people then the State. For this reason the church did and could revived up to four times the income as the State. The state only interest in "Marriage" was who owned Real Property (land) and thus who owned Military duty (Land Ownership and Military duty where tied together). The STATE courts thus determined who owned what land, and the military obligations that went with that ownership. For Example if a Woman married, her land came under the control of her Husband, for the simple reason HE HAD TO DO ANY MILITARY DUTY TIED IN WITH THE LAND. Furthermore, given that men needed someone to take care of their property while away on military duty, the wife had the right to 1/3 life estate (i.e. till her death) of his land. This was to balance the duties of land owners and their spouses (This is based on inheritance of Property, which generally went to only the spouse who was the heir to the previous owner. On the other hand, purchase of property was generally by BOTH spouses and it went to the surviving spouse by operation of law, as it does today in most cases).

All other property, Weapons, Armor, Tools, Farm Animals, Horses, Pets, Clothing, etc was given to one's heirs by the Church NOT the State during the Middle Ages. This tradition seems to last quite a long time, for example, Daniel Boone lived with his son in his old age, with his son getting all of Daniel Boone's surviving property (Daniel owned NO real property at that time). This was viewed as operation of law, Daniel Boone's son just ended up with the property and no one disputed it. By the time of Daniel Boone's death the Church had been relegated to a mediator in such disputes, and this ended most disputes.

It is only about the time of the US Civil War that disputes as to non-Real property inheritance started to be resolved by the Courts. It was about this time that the Courts found out that with adoption of the Concept of Freedom of Religion, someone had to step in a perform the functions of the old English Church Courts. With the Separation of Church and State, the Church could no longer decide cases, the Church could mediate if both members were of its religion, but even mediation as not possible if the dispute was between two people of different religions. Two factors push this adoption of the old English Church Court Jurisdiction by the Courts, first was the care of neglected children. This had long been a problem that old Church Courts handled in England, as long as you had a State Church OF a Church most people belonged to, such cases of Child Neglect could still be handled by the Church. As you started to have people who did NOT belong to any Church, the Churches could no longer perform this function, and the State Courts had to adopt the jurisdiction. Thus only about 1860 the State Courts started to rule on cases of Child neglect and mis-treatment. This moved the State Courts to decide even more matters (Through the movement started in the time of Queen Elizabeth I when Elizabeth had her Courts ORDER father's of illegitimate children to pay the mother's of such children money for the cost of care of such children, these were Common Pleas actions, but Criminal in Nature, i.e. the Attorney General brought against the father the CRIME of fathering a illegitimate child and if convicted forced to pay the mother support, through It was possible for men to compromise out of such action by denying paternity but paying the woman, George Washington did this to a woman in Bedford County Pa right after the Whiskey Rebellion).

The second push, was the raise of non-real property as a source of wealth. This again stared during the Renaissance, but gain great speed after 1800 with the growth of Corporations. Who inherited the Stock? The Stock was NOT real property so technically the NOT subject to Common Law Courts Jurisdiction, but it was often the main source of the wealth of a Deceased person. Thus this became more and more under the Jurisdiction of the Common Law Courts from 1500 onward (and increase after 1800). The Church Courts had always been viewed as a poor man's court, which kept a result of what was the decision, but rarely if ever kept a record of WHY that decision was made. The Common Law Courts took this weakness to say they was no record of WHY the decision was made and then made its own. This was complicated by the fact the Common Law Courts would require the NON-real property of the deceased by sold off to pay off any mortgage on the real property, even if the non-real property was to go to another heir than the real property (The real property generally went to the eldest son, the non-real property tended to be divided among all the children, a major difference between the common law and Church Courts).

Notice, the concern of the State changed over time. During the Middle Ages it was Military service. As England went from the Middle ages to the Renaissance, the Military Service was transferred to taxes and women's rights declined. At the same time the rights of the church's courts declined as England preferred to raise revenue then who received what non-real property. As non-real property started to equal and exceed Real property value, the State Courts took notice and started to decide such cases. The Church Courts never technically cross the Ocean, but till the 1800s the State courts did NOT want to take over what had been the Jurisdiction of the Church Courts so the Churches did most of what the old English Church Courts did but in the form of Mediation than litigation. Sooner or later you had a dispute that had to be decided, it could NOT be mediated and the property involved was enough to pay for lawyers to bring the case to court. This was when the state started to look into inheritance and who received what when.

Basically prior to about 1860, family disputes was a Church Matter NOT a State Court Matter (Through any attack within the family could raise to Criminal matter if it was an act if done to a non-family member could be a criminal matter, for example when a husband hit a wife, but fights among family members were viewed as belonging to the Church Courts, and where they was NO Church Court, a "Private Family Matter").

The only concern of the State Courts prior to 1860 was what duties a spouse had to a spouse. IF no valid marriage existed, no duty. If a valid marriage existed then a duty existed. This meant that if a jury count a marriage, all of the rights of a married couple kicked in (and the all male juries were noted for finding the marriage existed when the couple had lived together and she had used his last name). This more often then not affected men, but could affect women. The classic case was how Richard III was crowned King of England. His brother had married the mother of his children after she refused to go to bed with him without a wedding ring, but he had previously promised another women marriage if she slept with him. Thus the question, which had been his wife? Common Law Marriage did NOT mean Common law Divorce. Once Married you were married. Under the common law they was two types of common law Marriages (Three if you count Formal marriages). The First was when two people, single, announce to each other they were Married (Notice Sex was NOT needed for this type of marriage), the Second was a promise to marry in the future followed by Sexual intercourse. Given thant Richard III's Brother had made such a promise and had sex, he was married to that woman NOT the mother of his children for as a married man he could NOT marry again. This made his children illegitimate and Richard III his nearest legal heir. Thus Richard III had himself crown King of England at his brother's death (I will NOT go into what happened to his brother's two sons, that is NOT relevant to this discussion).

As England became more and more ruled by the Raising Middle Class (Even while over 90% of the population were working class or peasants) the above rule as to inheritance came to be more and more important. People wanted to know what someone was bringing into the family when their married into the family. Thus as to neared 1900 you see, more and more formality needed to have a valid Marriage. More so in Middle Class families then working class or peasants (Both of which as least till about the time of WWI had over 1/3 of their relationships in "informal" matters i.e. people lived together without formally getting married).

If you look at marriages since 1215, you will see Marriage is more concerned about who owns what, then how two people view each other. If you read the Story of Hitler's Family you will see that his father was born in Austria and even in highly Catholic Austria, Children were routinely recorded born by parish Priest. This is true even if the Couple had never been married (Most of this had to do with the Church performing a State function of recording births, but the church did it readily). A similar observation was made during the French Commune of 1871, most of the working class Couples were NOT married. As working class people income and property increased during the 20th Century, marriage rates increased, then dropped starting around the 1960s as income dropped. This again shows the state's greater concern for property issues then relationship issues. The state is concern about who owners what, not how two people are interacting EXCEPT if that interaction reflects property. Property is the main concern in how the State view Marriage and why the state have slowly made in more formal to get married.
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