Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Senator Clinton, former President Clinton, NAFTA, Perot, etc...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 11:29 PM
Original message
Senator Clinton, former President Clinton, NAFTA, Perot, etc...
I didn't want to hijack a similar thread to which this is ultimately tangential, so I wanted to give the flames and popcorns for this its own thread:

Perot is the reason Senator Clinton was First Lady

And I think those of us who deny that are, well, in denial.

Here's the sick irony of it all and part of why a lot of the "angry white man" right-wing was so angry at Clinton. Perot ran on essentially an anti-NAFTA platform, millions of people voted for it who would probably otherwise have voted for Bush, and ended up giving the election to Clinton, who worked even harder to make NAFTA happen than Bush Sr would have.

Labor, at that point, wiped the **** from its face and began a decade-long exile it's only beginning now to stir from. Keep in mind we have three forces here: old business, new business, and labor. New business loves NAFTA, labor hates it, and old business is at best ambivalent. Clinton and the rest of the DLC have been betting our party's future for a few decades now on the premise that new business is going to eventually outweigh labor. Bush Sr. represented old business, Clinton new business. Bush Jr. -- and this may surprise you -- represents new business too. His economic policies are not terribly different from Clinton's (both sides overstate the importance of Bush's tax cuts, though I'd certainly like that money back in the treasury): both did whatever they can to encourage debt-based consumerism and other forms of cheap, mobile capital while taking it as given that the US's industrial base will continue to decline. To put it glibly, the fact that you can get a $2 shirt at Wal-Mart makes up for the fact that the local textile mill closed and you lost your job -- just put that shirt on your credit card and work as a barista.

The bourgeois part of the Left, overjoyed at having "one of our own" in the White House, raked it in from the NAFTA windfall while driving the increasingly-pressured lower and middle classes to the right (see "What's the Matter with Kansas"). Seeing no help from their traditional protectors, middle- and working-class people flocked to Gingrich in 1994 because if the government was going to collude with business, at least they could try to make government weaker.

NAFTA was just one trade accord, but it represents an entire attitude towards economics that is collapsing around us: cheap, highly mobile capital and labor. When money can move easily, it has a tendency to accumulate, and it has. Senator Clinton still, rightly or wrongly, is fixed in many people's minds (including mine) as an advocate for this economic worldview. Unless she starts touting some serious anti-corporate-managed-trade language, she's going to have trouble convincing me (and, I think, other people like me) that she has had a change of heart about this.

On a side note, the question "Was Perot right?" is only a "gotcha" because we've fallen for this idiotic idea that a politician must have the same position on even peripherally related issues over the course of decades. Maybe NAFTA was the best best for 1992 but I think it's pretty clear that nobody is really satisfied with it except for people whose chief worry is keeping their diamond-tipped cane from scratching their monocle.

Would Hillary Clinton sell labor down the river the same way Bill Clinton did for 8 years? Is she committed to workers' rights here and abroad, or is she in favor of expanding corporate-managed trade agreements?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. The rosy scenario is that Hillary is a stealth progressive
But the rhetoric so far does not support that view.
I see her as the acceptable Dem for the elites to fund.
Acceptable because she believes in the free trade firesale.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I've seen posters here make that claim -
that her pro-military interventionist stance masks an anti-war agenda; and that she collects corporate dollars now, but will turn on the donors after the election.

Problem with that is, she wants to be in office for 2 terms, and lying to your donors is no way to get donations for the 2nd run, therefore, to ensure that backing she has to play along for the entire first term. Once re-elected, she could follow her progressive heart for about 18 months, but by year 6, when the next election is warming up, she will be irrelevant as people on both sides will run away from her because she is box-office poison, having betrayed the left, for doing so little for them, and the right for the few progressive stances she actually worked for.

Triangulating to draw in everyone winds up being trusted by no one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Please read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine.
The Clintons are, even if unwittingly, aiders and abettors of a historical movement called the Chicago School that favors "free enterprise" uber alles. If you read Klein's book, you will understand why it is so important at this time to elect Edwards. As far as I can tell, Edwards is the only one of our candidates who, at the same time, understands the aims and treachery of the Chicago School movement and can speak in a style and voice that ordinary people understand and trust. Kucinich sees the perils of the "free economy" or extreme capitalist ideology, but he does not speak in the voice and language that ordinary people understand. That is why I support Edwards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. So glad you posted this here! Here's my k&r -- and now I've got to go.
I'll check back with your thread tomorrow and kick it up if it needs it.

Thanks again for a terrific post!
sw
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Will she sell labor down the river? Yep.
Edited on Mon Nov-26-07 12:31 AM by antigop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs
Hillary pushes for more h1-b visas and outsourcing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLNOSGM2jK4
Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgdrh2Bc95M
Lou Dobbs: Hillary Clinton's hypocrisy (part 2)

And she supports the Peru trade agreement:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bonior/senator-clintons-wrong-p_b_71978.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-26-07 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kicking and recommending!
Hopefully, some Clinton-bots will read it and
actually comprehend that Clinton's (Trilateral Commission and
CFR members) do NOT have the best interest of the
American people in mind.
It's not the New World Order agenda for Americans
to live above third world status.

BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC