The family political arguments have officially started!

[bluedeminredstate]

My stepson and his wife are here for a few days for Thanksgiving. Both are rabid fundie wingers - she works for a complete nutjob in Congress. Anyway, my stepson and I were having a conversation this morning about his friend who just got divorced and how his ex tried to get half his investments, blah, blah, blah. He then mentioned proudly that his friend told him that he made more on his investment portfolio in the last few years than on his SIX figure salary.
We banter all the time good naturedly so I casually mentioned how lucky his friend was that all the GOP/Bush tax cuts of recents years on unearned income - dividends, stocks, capital gains, etc. helped him beef up his portfolio.

Well...off he went, escalating from talking normally to shouting. Basically the argument was his friend saved that money and no one should punish him for it, double taxation, GOP talking point after GOP talking point, on and on. You get the picture. He said I was insulting his friend and I said I was merely pointing out that things had changed in this country: tax breaks are for the wealthy who get their money through inheritance or investment - not going to work.

Should this come up again I'd like to have a few choice things to throw back at him and his "double taxation" bullshit. Any thoughts?
I can't believe it's not even Thanksgiving and the bickering has begun. Damn, they're here until Friday. Him and the handgun he brought to my house, but that's a whole other story...

Nothing like a rightwing Christian toting a weapon just in case he needs to break the first commandment.

:eyes:

[NMDemDist2]

1. double taxation?? ROFL

I invest $1 after paying taxes on that dollar

my $1 earns me $2

so now I have $3 of which I have paid taxes on only $1

why shouldn't I be taxed on the other $2?

I just don't get these guys who can't do simple math :shrug:

[Mountainman]

2. I think the idea behind double taxation is that the corporation paid tax on it's earnings and those

who own stock in that corporation pay tax a second time on those earnings when they have to pay tax on the dividends they received. Dividends are a share of the earnings already taxed.

The problem I see here is it's not the money being taxed it is the corporation and the individual.

The tax paid by the corporation is a tax on the earnings of the corporation. The tax paid by the investor is tax paid on the earnings of the investor.

Like most right wing ideas, this is a sham to get out of paying taxes or to get more wealth. Show me one right wing idea (less government, lower taxes, cut entitlements) that isn't all about getting more money in their pockets. There is nothing nobel about it. It is all me me me me me me. That's the main difference between them and us. They think about themselves and to hell with everyone else and we think about the society as a whole.

If the country were made up of only conservatives I'm afraid they would grab for all they could get and fight each other to the death for the rest.

[rateyes]

3. So, paying taxes is punishment?

Bullshit. Tell your stepson that he won't pay enough taxes in his lifetime to pay the cost of one bridge on an interstate highway--many stretches which are lighted up at night (somebody's got to pay that bill), and yet he gets to use every mile of those highways, if he wishes. Tell him the next time he takes an entrance ramp onto the interstate to say, "This is MY entrance ramp (even though he won't pay enough taxes to ever pay for it), and then look at the rest of the highway on his trip as interest on his investment.

He also gets police and fire protection. His children are afforded an education (although the teachers are WOEFULLY underpaid in relation to their importance in society). He, most likely, will draw more in Social Security than what he pays into it. Tell him there are people paid by the government whose job it is to make sure that the food he eats isn't contaminated, the toys his children play with aren't poisoned with lead, the water he drinks is clean, as is the air he breathes. Farmers are paid subsidies to try and keep his food prices down, and he is living in a free country (though, it's becoming much less so with the Republicans in charge).

And, tell him to EXCUUUUUUUUSSSSSSEEEEEEEE those who are disabled on the job for asking for a little bit of help from him, and that you hope he never has to rely on the government for disability benefits.

He gets a HELLUVA lot more back for his taxes than he pays into the system. I'm sorry, but people like your stepson are a bunch of pitiful ingrates. Tell him that those who do so well, like his friend, do so BECAUSE of the tax system and the government of the US, not IN SPITE of it...and, instead of complaining about their taxes, they should PAY UP and say THANK YOU!

Tell your stepson that rateyes says, "Quit your bitchin' and be grateful."

[donsu]

4. tell him you don't allow guns in your house (I don't)

and put him out if he doesn't remove it.

it's your house

[truebrit71]

8. Agreed. 100%

No penis extensions allowed... ;-)

[NYVet]

5. My family has a rule that the first one to bring up politics has to sit with the kids.

And that table is for a 5 year old. The rule was instigated by grandma 40 years ago, and has outlasted her.

I made the mistake about 10 years ago of making a political comment and she set her fork down, picked me up by the ear, and sat me at the little kids table.

That was the LAST time I did that at her house.

[NYVet]

6. As for the last line of your post.

In original translations, the bible states "thall shalt not murder". There is a difference between using deadly force to defend yourself or another and going out into the street to gun down the neighbor because you don't like the color of his car or something.

I am a Christian and I own guns. Other than hunting, I have only had to use my weapons once in defense of myself and my property. At the time, I was outnumbered 2-1, and my Remington shotgun was enough to persuade these 2 miscreants to surrender before they came any further into the house.

[mmonk]

7. Let it be an opportunity for calm explanation of your position.

Political ideology is very similar to religious belief. It is a belief system. So make your arguments without being drawn into angry argument and give rational reasons and be done with it. They may see your point later in a life experience. But don't keep angry debate going because they will just lock down into their position. The willingly blind are the most adamant in their blindness. And tell him it is unfair for the working poor to bear the tax burden of corporate tax loopholes.

[lovuian]

9. Happy Holidays

don't ya love it Throw a turkey leg at them

[NewJeffCT]

10. The infrastructure that allowed him to make his capital gains

is mostly used by those who can afford to invest in stocks. The people that use the system the most should be the ones paying the most in taxes.

If he invests in the stock of say, General Electric, he should know that GE and their 400,000 employees benefit greatly from the infrastructure of the American economy in many ways:

1) By utilizing the government paved roads to go to & from work; In locations where there is snow, many of these employees drive on roads plowed by state or local governments. Because of various OSHA laws, he also knows that the many GE offices and factories are safe places to work.
2) Using clean water provided through enactment of the clean water act and clean air through various anti-pollution laws. Their electrical service and other utilities are mostly provided through regulated utilities.
3) He knows GE is financially stable enough for investment because of numerous financial disclosure requirements required by the SEC and other regulatory agencies and these disclosures have been audited by KPMG, and vetted through numerous analysts on Wall Street and other world markets.
4) GE products are services have to meet certain regulatory standards and quality standards or they would not sell and/or be recalled. They know that GE has an army of lawyers at their disposal in case another company sues them over various isssues - and 95% of all lawsuits are between one company suing another. Do you know how much of a burden that imposes on our taxpayer-funded court system?
5) GE owns NBC, MSNBC, CNBC and other television channels, and makes use of government regulated airwaves to obtain this benefit.
6) GE does billions of dollars in business in foreign countries and had greatly benefited from our country's (now fading) reputation as having well-regulated financial markets.

That's just one company off the top of my head.

[kineneb]

11. "So you don't want to pay taxes; may I suggest...

that there are many fine Third World countries, especially in Africa, where you won't have to pay any taxes. Of course, the roads are all dirt, there is no clean running water, no flush toilets, no bridges across the rivers, no electricity, and all the neighbors are at war with each other and would cheerfully kill you. If that is your idea of a nice place to live, a country where you can keep all your money, please fell free to move there. Otherwise shut up and be grateful for all the things your taxes provide."

I am not nice.

I got into a disagreement with "Little" Brother (age 40, 6'2"), and told him something to the effect of: "The entire Bush administration is a bunch of assholes. That is my position, I am sticking to it, and don't bother arguing with me." It worked. My Brother and Step-father do not discuss politics with me anymore.

(Little Brother knows better than to argue with me anyway...)

[monmouth]

12. Wow, great post, am sending to the RW uncle who thank gawd, does not dine with me...lol.

[spoony]

13. You shall have no other gods?

:shrug: How does one violate that with a gun?

[trotsky]

15. In terms of importance, "Thou shalt not kill" should be first.

But god's apparently pretty vain, eh?

[bluedeminredstate]

14. Thank you for the comments and insight

He stormed off before I had a chance to get angry back at him so we never discussed my position other than when he initially heard me make a remark about taxation on unearned wealth and went off like a rocket. Could be his sensitivity on the issue is that his wife works for a legislator who helped push through all the tax bonuses for the wealthy and that also, at the age of 35, he and the wife are pulling in over 200K a year. He yearns to become a part of Bush's "investor class" and is working to save every nickel he can by being cheap (not thrifty - I mean the kind of person who doesn't pull his wallet out a Starbucks when someone else is with him who'll take care of it. To him, money saved this way is a big thrill. He talks about "saving" money when he's with his dad because my husband pays for lunch, coffee, movies, you name it.) :grr:

I think it's best to leave politics and Bush alone for now, although if he tries any of his global warming denying at any time between now and Friday I expect his father to blow a gasket. My husband is totally shocked and bewildered that his highly intelligent son (1600 on his SATs, William & Mary, etc.) could possibly believe that climate change is a liberal hoax. But he does. :shrug:

But...I've doled out a little payback for his rude behavior this morning - I have him vacuuming the entire downstairs this afternoon so the floors will be "nice for Thanksgiving." Yeah, I did it on Monday night, but a little work won't kill him. Get him out of the investor class and into the working class.