VN Vets and others: Did this *really* happen?

[Smarmie Doofus]

>>>The nightmares began in Iraq, before he arrived home in May 2006 for his mid-tour leave. At the airport, most welcomed him and other troops home. But one man began shouting at the servicemembers, calling them baby-killers.>>>

The above is a snippet from an article from the current Stars and Stripes re. PTSD among returning Iraqi VETS. It's referenced in an earlier VETS forum post by, I believe, unhappycamper.

I recognized the airport scene immediately from a few dozen accounts of returning VN VETS usually in the context of discrediting opposition to the war by painting the opposition as ill-mannered, obnoxious and unsympathetic to the plight of returning VETS.

It's reappearance in gov't mouthpiece Stars and Stripes begs the question. "Did this actually happen?" Or is it gov't/RW urban mythology?

I find it's current reappearance *pretty* hard to believe... since it's hard to get *anyone* to express *any* opinion about Iraq in *any* public setting. At least that's been my experience. Hard to envision an encounter like the one S and S describes.

In the case of VN, the dynamics were different and everyone had an opinion. Still, I don't remember anyone "blaming" people who were sent by the gov't and I sure don't remember civilians at airports shrieking insults at returning GIs ( oh... and *spitting* on them; that's another variation of the story).

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it occurred with regularity. But... if I'm right, does anyone know what the basis for this 'urban myth ' might be? E.g. a movie, TV show, column by WF Buckley?

[B Calm]

1. Speaking for myself, no one spit in my face and called me a baby killer.

It was urban legend started by the war mongers.

[KharmaTrain]

2. Longtime Right Wing Talking Point

I was part of a group that marched against the war, wore a POW bracelet and visited VA hospitals to say "thank-you" to those who had returned. I saw PTSD then...and have seen it in many variations since. Some of us didn't forget the Vietnam Vets as they were our brothers and neighbors and co-workers. The ones who did were the ones who blamed them for "losing" Vietnam...and most of those were the chickenshit chickenhawk Repugnicans.

[Sadie4629]

3. A good friend of mine was in the Navy during Viet Nam

He had (of course) entered the Navy voluntarily, and was proud of what he did, as we all should be proud of our professions. He was in San Francisco on shore leave (or whatever they call it.) He was wearing his uniform and people threw rotten tomatoes at him. I believe it happened. He wouldn't lie to me about it. There were people who did atrocious things to military people at that time.

[B Calm]

5. hearsay... Might have been a small group of marines. After all

we know it would have took more than one to attack a sailor!

[Smarmie Doofus]

15. Ouch. Were they specifically "antiwar "people...

>>He was wearing his uniform and people threw rotten tomatoes at him. I believe it happened. He wouldn't lie to me about it. There were people who did atrocious things to military people at that time. >>>

... or was there more context involved? I.e. Did they say or shout anything?

[Sadie4629]

23. He didn't say if there was any verbal stuff going on

But, who carries around rotten vegetables, unless they were looking to throw them at someone?

And, would it make a difference to you if there was?

[B Calm]

24. Did your friend say that it was girls throwing the rotten vegetables?

[Smarmie Doofus]

26. It would absolutely make a difference. (?)

The thread is about returning GIs who were harrassed/ insulted/and or spat upon by *antiwar* people.

I'm trying to establish from your account that that's WHY they threw the tomatoes. For instance : we can make a fair guess that if they said" you GD war criminal baby killers !" and then threw the tomatoes that they were motivated by antiwar sentiment.

Hence my request for more context.

I'm guessing that occassionally on shore leave ( yes, I do believe that's what it's called) there might have been in the VN era a few altercations involving US sailors on shore leave that had nothing to do with the politics of the VN war.


>>>But, who carries around rotten vegetables, unless they were looking to throw them at someone?>>>

Let me guess: only anti VN war demonstrators?

[Sadie4629]

29. Don't know the context

But I do know that this is not the kind of guy who would get into an altercation.

This was a long time ago, but to imply, as some on this thread have, that there was NOTHING but the most absolute respect for the military and for veterans, is ridiculous. According to some at the time, anything associated with the military was fair game. Do you think that people who would blow up a MATH building on the University of Wisconsin campus (killing one researcher, BTW) would draw the line at throwing stuff at a guy in uniform?

">>>But, who carries around rotten vegetables, unless they were looking to throw them at someone?>>>

Let me guess: only anti VN war demonstrators?"

Or anti-vegetable demonstrators, maybe?

[Smarmie Doofus]

31. With this I agree:

>>>his was a long time ago, but to imply, as some on this thread have, that there was NOTHING but the most absolute respect for the military and for veterans, is ridiculous.>>>

there was widepread disrespect for the MILITARY ( and FEAR of it also). "Absolute respect" for veterans would be overstating the case. Most people... in my recollection... felt sorry for people who had to go and felt relieved that THEY didn't have to. But that's not what my OP was about.

There's been a long standing implication that returning vets were "harrassed" and , in some cases "spat upon" by people who opposed the war. The visual image conjured is organized antiwar demos at airports and a veritable gauntlet of abuse.

There seems to be a dearth of evidence that that is even remotely true... although at least some posters have described what sound like isolated incidents of social hostility on bus rides and such.

[lazer47]

4. Yes it happened, at Oakland Army Terminal in 1969,1971, 1972

Do you think the word "baby killer" just magically appeared out of nowhere, The peace movement was in full force back then, as the same thing now, It was extremist then and the same now whether right wing or left wing it make no difference then or now, it is wrong, soldiers have nothing to do with the politics of war. And my final question why bring it back up? that is just a war wound that needs to heal

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. For about two hundred different reasons....

>>And my final question why bring it back up? that is just a war wound that needs to heal>>>

To begin with: I'm not sure that NOT discussing or examining things like this facilitates the healing process.

To end with: I'm an amateur media wonk and I like to try to discern media mythology from actuality.

I'm ambitious. What can I say?

[lazer47]

22. I can understand ambition, drive on!!

[TahitiNut]

34. "facilitates the healing process"??? WHAT FUCKING "Healing Process"??

This piece of shit gets dragged out on DU about 3-4 times every fucking year of the five I've been here and it's the same goddamned bullshit every fucking time!

When I recount my experience returning from 'Nam in November 1969, I've been called every fucking name in the fucking book! People who weren't even born or were still in diapers try TO TELL ME(!!) that I'm either delusional or a liar.

"HEALING"???

BULLSHIT!

Keyboard warriors who continue to posture on this issue are merely pouring more salt in a repeatedly re-opened wound.

:grr:

[fasttense]

6. During Vietnam it did occur.

When I went into the military, right after the Vietnam war had ended, we were warned to avoid wearing our uniforms in public in certain areas of the US. It was never made clear what would happen to us if we wore our uniform, but it wasn't a good thing.

I have yet to get a confirmation on the same thing happening to returning Iraqi vets. I don't honestly believe the same thing is happening to them.

[Ice4Clark]

7. When my spouse came home, he decided to go straight to

Oregon to visit some very close cousins. He loved the state, his cousins and thought it would help him heal. Anyway, he was in uniform while traveling on a bus and he told me that many women called him a "baby killer" on that trip. Not the riders, but at places where they would stop and stretch. Those words and their actions have never left him. Occasionally the hurt and anger still surface, especially in the waging war era we seem to be living in today.

[B Calm]

8. The Vietnam War was not a popular war. But.. most of these rumors

were started by the returning vets because they were not greeted with parades..

[lazer47]

9. That is so full of Bull Shit it stinks,,, always blame the victim, right??

[B Calm]

11. US NAVY 1969 to 1973

USS Yosemite AD 19
USS Albany CG 10

Damage Controlman

[lazer47]

12. U.S. Army, Retired, '65-'85, 'Nam 68-69//71-72,,,,,

[B Calm]

18. "Debunking a Spitting Image"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1004178

[lazer47]

20. Jerry Lembeck's account has been in question with a lot of

people, for a long time, especially sociologists, and members of academia.

[B Calm]

21. ha ha

[TahitiNut]

36. Indeed. Lembcke's agenda is obvious and his contrived 'logic' anything but objective.

I'm sure he regards his motives pure and his 'cause' righteous ... but it stinks, to me.

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. Wow. Powerful stuff. I didn't realize that....

... there had been so much work done in this area alone.

Bookmarking it for later tonite. Thanks for the link.

[tuckessee]

32. Victims?

Are you talking about the millions of Vietnamese killed, maimed & dislocated because of the US troops?

[Glorfindel]

13. Most of us came back one at a time

It would have been hard to stage a parade for each returning soldier. My family picked me up at the Atlanta airport. That was all I cared about at the time. I flew Northwest Orient Airlines from Cam Ranh Bay to Fort Lewis, Washington, and then from Seattle/Tacoma airport to Atlanta. It took about 30 hours. I was so tired and jet-lagged that I doubt I'd have noticed a parade, anyway. :hi:

[lazer47]

14. Most of the Army personell were processed back in country

at what used to be called "The Barn" at Oakland, Most of us were flown back to Travis AFB and rode a bus back to Oakland.

[lazer47]

17. Correction, Replace "most" with "a large majority"

[HereSince1628]

25. It didn't happen to me, but I found the local American Legion distinctly unfriendly

and unwelcoming. I wouldn't want to generalize beyond that Post or beyond 1972.

Besides general civic activities the AL post had it's own bar and was a popular hangout for some WWII and Korean Vets with the sort of personal problems that cause 40+ - 50+ year-olds to spend lots of time in a bar. These local denizens of the AL greeted me with little enthusiasm and some outright disrespect, not so much because I was a veteran but because I belonged to a different generation. It seemed my buddy's moustache and long hair and my growing beard were things that trumped our veteran status and which the old guard weren't yet ready for in "their watering hole."

My uncle was very active in the AL, at the time I came back he was actually the Commander of that Post. As there were few VN veterans showing up he had pressed me to visit. So I went and had dragged along another vet, a kid I had grown up with and who had been out of service for four or five years. After our experience I told my uncle I'd not be returning. I never did.

I'd not want to imply that things didn't change over the years or that my experience was in anyway more general than my personal experience.


Sorry I meant to post this as its own reply...

[B Calm]

27. t took me approx 20 years to join the AL and the VFW..

[Glorfindel]

10. It didn't happen to me, personally

I did hear of and read about such incidents that happened to others after I was discharged from the army.

[madokie]

16. As I look back I'm glad I didn't ever wear my usn uniform when I was traveling

and then when I got home with a 'whole new plan' everyone I knew had something else to give me a hard time about. only one other person in my hometown of about 1500 souls plus the surronding area of maybe another 1500 or so smoked. Let me say I heard this from many parents, "I've heard of you and I don't want you around my daughter or son", mostly daughters, like I was going to really be worried about corrupting them, yeah right. My wifes parents being one of them. Lucklily for me by the time, some 20 some odd years later, we hooked up to spend our lives together they were both gone, otherwise I'd prolly be dead now ;-)

[Bitwit1234]

30. We all know something like that might happen BUT

we all, also know, that no matter who you are what you do and where you go, there will always be assholes who do stuff like that.

Some people think they are funny, some have mental problems. It does not mean because one person might have done something of this nature that the whole country condones it. People that saw stuff like this would be outraged and rightly so.

[nguoihue]

33. Did this really happen

Came back twice, to MCAS El Toro. No civilians around. Wore my uniform home both times LAX-Chicago O'Hare-Wash Dulles-Greyhound Bus to my home in the hills. Nobody bothered me. No one said hello. No one said kiss my ass. It was like I did not exist.

[B Calm]

35. Only when the vets tried to join the American Legion and VFW

We got more disrespect from WW2 and Korean Vets than we ever did from war protesters! Hell many of the Vietnam Vets were in fact the war protesters!