I'd like to get some thoughts from people here

[Hydra]

I've noticed lately that posts here have gotten EXTREMELY polarized...understandable, given the magnitude of the issues we are discussing.

Given that fact, I may be asking for a flamefest by suggesting this, but lets assume that all of us here have the same objective(and that's a HUGE assumption, I know)- the removal of Bushco.

From my perspective, he must be removed to restore rule of law. As much as I don't like the law, law provides an objective measure of behavior rather than the word of the kings and the nobles. The President is not the law, nor are his servants.

I'm not concerned as to how, so I'd like the thoughts of DU as to how this may be accomplished. Impeachment is the obvious answer, but for those who feel it is not viable, please post your alternatives.

[SteppingRazor]

1. My alternative is the 2008 election.

:shrug:

[Hydra]

6. Can't be counted on

Election fraud for one thing. Also, if Bush walks out of the oval office having completed a full two terms, his assumed power will become precedent, and he will be seen as a legitimate ruler of our country.

That cannot be allowed.

[groovedaddy]

2. If the votes aren't there, it ain't gonna happen, even thought you're right

It needs to happen to restore the rule of law. Bush's signing statements are a clear violation of the law, as are wiretaps without warrants, detentions without probable cause, invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat, contriving evidence to support the illegal invasion...well, you get the point.

[bunkerbuster1]

3. I don't think he can be removed.

We could barely get 2/3s of Senate to provide healthcare assistance to kids; those sick, evil GOP Senators are not going to convict.

And being that they won't convict, the President will not be removed. He won't resign. There's no international body that will arrest him.

All we can do is cut him down and mess him up however we can, in as efficient a manner as is possible. I'd prefer massive public mobilizations and strikes, but I doubt we'll get our Democratic leaders to call for that (as they would in other countries).

Impeachment is fine--it's necessary to set the historical record straight--but it's nothing more than the mother of all rhetorical exercises, and as we get closer to Jan. 2009, we might as well recognize that.

[againes654]

4. Impeachment

we have to impeach them. They are warmongering criminals. The deserve no less than prision. If Clinton deserved to be impeached for lying about a fucking blow job, then this should be a no brainer. :shrug:

[CT_Progressive]

5. The counter-argument to impeachment boils down to this:

- Have congress pass a whole bunch of laws clearly and unabiguously making all the things Bush did illegal. That way, no future president can do what he did. That will safeguard Americans again, and restore law and democracy.

i.e. You don't have to punish Bush to fix the damage to our Freedom, you just have to pass laws.

Impeachment would also accomplish the same thing, because finding him guilty of violations would become Legal Precedent, which in effect, creates laws "from the bench". i.e. the Judiciary would in-effect clarify the law by their ruling of guilt against Bush.

[tularetom]

7. Dems in Congress should realize impeachment MUST take place

or history will record that they were complicit in the crimes of the cheney administration. Regardless of whether or not it is timely, will succeed, don't have the votes, blah blah blah, they need to do it or in a hundred years they will be blamed as much as anyone for the downfall of the USA.

Maybe in a lot less than a hundred years.

[JuniperLea]

8. I don't care what excuses people give you for NOT even attempting an impeachment...

It's clear that impeachment is the only way to insure this rat bastard and his vile band of cronies are ousted from the office they stole. Don't tell me we don't have enough damn votes! That isn't the point. The end, actual impeachment, is the least of it. We need to show the country, and the entire world, that what BushCo has done is wrong and unacceptable. Don't tell me that Congress has better things to do with their time. Bullshit! What is their time being spent on other than bills the rat bastard in chief will veto?

To ignore, avoid, dig your heels in and say "impeachment is off the table" is to CONDONE the illegal behavior.

[VP505]

9. Oh, I have

an alternative but since Agent Mike might be surfing through I'll keep it to myself, thank you!

[Hydra]

11. In a land without laws...

You know that's how it is right now, right? The only law is fear of the King's Thugs.

[renie408]

10. I just don't get that.

It pretty much seems to me that this is the way it has always been. I remember when I first started posting here, it was the scariest freaking message board I had ever been on. I have been posting here off and on for over three years and it seems to me that it is always like this.

[renie408]

13. Just checked your profile...

You haven't been around long enough. It gets like this around primary season. The problem with this year is that the campaign season has been stretched out so long. There will probably be some pretty icky stuff going on up until we get a nominee and for a little while afterward. Then things should settle down.

[H2O Man]

12. I think that

there are some issues where there are going to be very different points of view on. Let's take the issue of impeachment, as there may be some differences being expressed on thgis now.

There should be some good threads with reasoned debate. There should also be respect for some threads where some DUers want to organize among their smaller group to engage in something like a LTTE campaign.

Just my opinion, of course.

[specimenfred1984]

14. I don't "feel" anything, I know republicans will not convict the fake prez

if he's impeached for his numerous crimes. Need some proof, ask yourself what Lewis Libby is doing these days. Want some real answers from someone in power then read what Pelosi has to say:

----Speaker Pelosi: Thank you David. The American people really don’t even know the half of it, but we are trying to build the record, and that’s what we have to do. You know, they’ve been going for six – almost seven – six and a half years, with no oversight. Just absolutely zero accountability, no oversight. And when people talk about this Congress, they have to recognize the big distinction between this Congress and previous Congress’ in terms of shining the light of oversight and accountability on this administration. So when people see what is happening in terms of… What we said last year during the campaign – for the whole of 2006 what we said “Corruption, Cronyism and Incompetence”. And that’s some of this unint… Corruption. It’s not just the corruption; this personal aggrandizement that were guilty of, it was the corruption in terms of the governmental process. And they… it’s stunning. It really is stunning. And on many of these things, you have to build a record so that the public sees what it is. And I think that some of our people, Mr. Waxman in particular because he has the committee – The Government Reform and Oversight Committee – has done a spectacular job and I think you might share that assessment of what he has done.

Now you see the administration asserting executive privilege. So the press asked me this morning, “Does this mean you’re going to hold them in contempt next?” I said “No, we’re gonna let the process work out” because you have to build the record. You have to build the record. ----

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/3472-speaker-pelosi-on-the-war-impeachment-and-accountability

[MrModerate]

15. "Bushco" is much bigger than just Bush himself -- or his father . . .

for that matter. It is, truly, a "vast right-wing conspiracy."

If that's what you want to get rid of, you've got your work cut out for you and I'd counsel saving up your patience, because it's not going to happen during Schimpanski's term, it's not going to happen during the next presidency, or the next, or the next.

Bush will be remembered by historians for two things: his incredible botch of the Iraq War and his incredible success in accelerating (to a degree never seen before in this country) the transfer of wealth to the uberrich. The power of that money (which hardly originated with his presidency, but which has seen its influence magnified hugely on Bush's watch) won't be overcome without rolling back hundreds of laws favoring corporate rights over citizen rights that have been put in place over the last few decades (under dems and 'licans alike).

The fact is that defective campaign financing practices have effectively handed governing of America over to the top 1-percenters and they are absolutely convinced that it's their government now, since they bought it fair and square.

Impeachment would be morally satisfying, but largely irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. We need to elect solid majorities of reformist progressives, election cycle after election cycle, who will repair the damage done to our constitution, our commercial practices, our supreme court, and our international credibility.

Good frakkin' luck.

As for me, I've had it. I'm leaving the country and hopefully will have somewhere to hide when WWIII breaks out for real.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

16. I think if the truth about PNAC came to light...

...people would start believing that we are dealing with an organized crime family.

People have to realize that it was always Cheney and the neo-cons’ plan to seek world domination through aggression. We have to talk more about war profiteering.

We have to get people to connect the dots. I think we should start with the fact that John Hinckley’s dad was an oil tycoon and friend to Papa Bush . If we start there, everyone would realize the depths the Bushes would sink to to steal the presidency, all to achieve power.

If the truth came out, Americans would DEMAND the removal of the White House mafia.

We need patriots who are willing to tell the truth. And we shouldn’t support politicians who enables the current administration.

[asjr]

17. He must be removed before the

next election. He needs to be gone NOW! Republicans have put him before the country. I would like to impeach all Republicans. Didn't they swear on oath to uphold this country? I am so fed up with our government it may take millions of us pounding the pavement in front of the WH to demand he resign. He has betrayed his country. What other reason should there be to get rid of him? There are many many reasons to impeach him, but who will instigate it? That entire cabal will go scott free after 8 years of treason.