There's a libertarian-type backlash coming. Call me crazy, but

[Skidmore]

I am listening to a Ron Paul speech for the first time on CSPAN. I'm understanding his appeal better now. What people are hearing is not rantings of the RW kooks or the well-reasoned, extremely logical reasonings of the left. They are hearing a guy who says "leave me alone and let me live." People are tired of the convoluted arguments and rantings of both sides and even though he's an R, he sounds like neither to the uninformed ear. This is the candidate to be worried about.

[midnight]

1. The same mentality that was convinced that they just wanted to

have a beer with bush.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[backscatter712]

48. You hit the nail on the head.

This is why out of all the GOP candidates, Ron Paul's the only one I respect. Not that I'll vote for him - I'm not for tearing down the social safety net and creating an anarchic market (as opposed to a free market) that would lead to us all being devoured by corporate sharks. Oh, and he's also very pro-life...

But I do respect him, which is more than I can say for all the other fascists in the GOP Presidential race.

[MLFerrell]

49. "...which is more than I can say for all the other fascists in the GOP..."

And some of the so-called "Democrats" in the race as well.

[cali]

2. If by some miracle

Paul got the nomination, he's be incredibly easy to defeat. You may be right that there's a libertarian backlash coming, but there won't be a sizable one coalesing behind Paul.

[glowing]

4. dupe

[glowing]

5. I'm not so sure he's that easy.... He's got a following like no other...

Its almost scary to me how people who I believe to be so progressive and liberal are annoiting him like Jesus... Its very odd to me. I don't trust his dismantling of the govt. Govt is supposed to be of the people.. so dismantling anything to me means dismantling ourselves. I'd rather work within the system to make it more about the people and less about corporate.

The biggest reason I don't support him is because of healthcare... I only wish our candidates were addressing an all encompassing healthcare program... that includes getting rid of FDA/ Pharma corruption, GMO foods, and encouraging small farms that produce more organic foods. And introducing holistic/ natural medicines into the healthcare model. It is absolutly no brainer to me why people are getting fatter. Why these news people haven't figured it out yet is beyond me.

[cali]

10. All you have to do to defeat him is flood the airways with the truth

of his positions; that he wants to define life as beginning at conception, that he wants to dismantle ALL social safety networks, that he's for UNFETTERED free trade, and lowering taxes on corporations. In fact he's for dismantling the IRS, and such bodies as the EPA and the Ed Dept- just to name a few of his ideas.

[glowing]

26. Well, that's not exactly the truth... that's the spin, but not exactly what he

would do. As an individual, he believes life starts at conception, but in no way has he ever said he would take away a woman's right to choose...whether he supports more help for the mother after or not is something I'm not sure about. I know he doesn't believe in medicare or social security, mainly because people pay in, and its not guaranteed back. Say you die at 55, who gets all the money you've paid in. Perhaps your spouse, if your spouse didn't make as much at the time of death? Lowering taxes all around is a Libertarian mantra... Gov't out of my business. I believe its more about trying to bring back American mainstreet (my personal feelings with this is that universal healthcare would, in fact, bring back smaller, local business and farmers. The IRS is a powerful machine that needs to be dismantled and assembled correctly. Income tax should not be taken from your labor. It was designed to pay for WWI.. now it continues to pay for more wars and our children are born indebted to the war machine. The EPA is not working effectively, but I don't know if his exact wording on that issue. And the Dept of Education is retarded. Yes, there should be standards that all children should live up to, but the NCLB is not working. Before this States regulated more of there own schools...

He's a little too old school for me. He believes in smaller govt... giving more power to the states. In reality, we are way too big of a nation to do that. A lot of his ideas come straight from constitutionalists... But they had less population and 13 states to regulate. I believe in moving progressively, I believe in throwing out the Fed's, and I believe that some federal agencies need to be in place, but should never usurp the constitution (Homeland Security)... Too much secrecy, not enough honesty, and the good people getting screwed. His ideas are too outdated.

[RainDog]

38. state v federal

the funny thing now is that the federal govt is the reactionary one while many state govts have majority populations that want to create a govt. for people more to their choosing.

ex. are the California (and other states) medical marijuana initiative.

Vermont's child health care program

the vast numbers of people who are a majority of the American population --those who live in "blue states" but have to live under the thumb of red authoritarianism because of the electoral college.

these people do not want a private army paid for with tax dollars, or want money to go to rich people instead of schools.

so old school has evolved with the changes wrought by the republican revolution over the last decade. state rights doesn't necessarily mean small govt and repression of minorities. state levels seem to be the only responsive levels of govt. for those who want to live in a liberal democracy.

I don't understand why "libertarians" are the only ones who can speak about the stupidity of the war on drugs or terror, etc. at the federal level here with a conviction that things should be different NOW. Fundamentally different. But again, these same frustrated democrats and independents don't support a libertarian economic view... but since the middle class is going the way of the horse and buggy as we regress, economically, to the 1920s... the beltway politicians on the left do not seem to get how disgusted so many of their constituents are... and they're not just democrats.

[glowing]

43. Completely agree with your view... Sometimes your state is a saving

grace and is more progressive.. but then other states want to outlaw abortions...Allowing only states to mandate is like making mini-countries within the United States.

I think a lot of people see the fallacy in the War on Drugs, and if people had it explained better to them, they'd think it was absolutely crazy. Its a slave business pure and simple.

And the middle class is almost gone. Two people having to work like dogs to make ends meet is not a middle class lifestyle, no matter how great King George thinks it is that someone is working 3 jobs to pay for his war.

But we'd have a different outlook in America if we did throw out the Federal Reserve... There is nothing Federal about it, its a private banking institution that controls our lives. And I hate to say, the few Presidents that wanted to challenge this system, were assassinated. So Ron Paul is really bold to suggest this in his campaign.

[RainDog]

55. we need to abolish the electoral college

that is why this nation skews so much farther to the right than its population (or any other western democracy, for that matter.) Salon.com just had a good article about this very issue.

I agree that "states' rights" is not the answer to the divisions in this nation. However, I also often think that the U.S. is not going to remain one country because of these same divisions. I cannot see any way I can reconcile my view of this nation with a theocrat. there is no middle ground there. I think their view is unconstitutional.

as far as the Fed res. -- if you didn't see Naomi Klein and Greenspan on Democracy Now! you should go their site and read/hear it. I was really stunned to see, on my tv, a debate about issues in which blanket statements were refuted with facts and no one was yelling. I don't watch the old yellers anymore anyway. they all disgust me.

[liberaldemocrat7]

37. I would not vote for a person who would want to dismantle the social safety net

even if he acted honest about his or her positions.

I wouldn't vote for a present KKK leader either even though he or she acted honest as well.



I want to vote for someone who acts honest AND also wants to replace medicare part D with something better.

I want someone who will help increase the minimum wage to $10/hr.

I want someone who will help enact HR 676 single payer universal health care.

I want someone who will keep America strong and act strong on national security.

Don't forget that the Republicans lost the world trade center on 9-11 and not the Democrats. The Republicans acted WEAK on national defense and national security and such should go into a campaign commercial for president in 2008.

Ron Paul doesn't appear as a mixed bag. Ron Paul appears a beaker with milk and posion although the analogy might not extend very far.

[glowing]

45. There are 2 sides to the social security net.. #1. what you pay in

you may not ever receive. #2. I will never see my social security. I am paying into a system that is broken. It would have worked if they hadn't borrowed it, but they did.

People my age could care less to pay into that system.

[sandyd921]

63. Well maybe if we elected people who would actually fix social security

people your age could benefit from the system. My understanding is that the fix is not all that complicated. Extending the social security tax to incomes over 97,000 would do it. Right now people only pay the tax on income under 97,000. This means that people with lower incomes are paying a higher proportion of their income into the system than those with higher incomes.

As far as Ron Paul, I want a government (elected by "We the People") that prioritizes both promoting "the general welfare" and securing "the blessings of liberty". I respect his views on civil liberties but not on promoting the common good in our society.

[renie408]

3. I don't watch Tucker Carlson, so I don't know if he has always

portrayed himself as a libertarian, but that is what he was doing on Real Time last night. He made several efforts to identify himself with the Libertarians. I didn't know if he was trying to score points with Maher.

[Skidmore]

7. Tucker is afraid of losing his job as a neocon flack.

He likes his cushy lifestyle and rubbing elbows with the elite of DC.

[bvar22]

53. Tucker revealed himself as a ...

...whining, petulant, rude, self-centered little brat who is afraid to let anyone else finish a sentence.

He was handed his ass several times. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Don't Think You Could Get Ten Percent Of Americans To Support A True Liberterian Platform

-the legalization of all drugs

-the legalization of prostitution

-the legalization of all pornography except child pornography

-the legalization of gay marriage

Not in America and not in my lifetime

[Skidmore]

9. I think there are voters who only listen to one part of a message and vote

on that. That is how * got the nod. I also think there are more people interested in voting this time around too. How tuned in they are, I don't know.

[pampango]

34. That is certainly true, but I think we are all guilty of listening to one part of a message

and voting on that. Many of the quarrels we have about Dem presidential candidates are over a part of their message, not their overall platform or performance.

[pretzel4gore]

8. watching mr pig squirm....

'wee shoood make guvmint small enoff to snuff it in a bathtub' they're saying to each other (and Ron's the voice of rightwing reason-'marajuwanna's bad, drugs are bad' etc)
too bad Hunter Thompson wasn't here to speak for the left: "How long, OH LORD, how LONG!"
And hillary and barack and the good guys, except Dennis, of course, all wanna 'stay the course' with mr pig, who deserves our respect, you gotta admit (he wears old glory underwears and strokes his chin when brite hum pontificates) unless you're insignificant
you know what it means....

[Didereaux]

11. at this time Paul may be the most probable to go 3rd Party!

That would NOT be good for the Democratic Party candidate. As stated the Paul supporters are not the neo-cons, nor the religious right...they are the 3-5% totally unpredicatable, but vital voters who can determine the winner in the general. If Paul does not run, then those that actually will turn out to vote will have a high likely-hood of voting against any republican. Considering just how close the past two elections were in the popular vote, their small numbers could be crucial.

I think that is why you have not seen a concerted public attack on Paul by the Republican Party, he is serving them well at this juncture recruiting potential Democratic votes from those 'quasi-libertarians'.

TURN OUT IS CRUCIAL!

[cali]

15. There's actually a substantial amount of repuke

support for him, as well as libertarian support. And he's committed on several occasions to NOT running as a third party candidate. He knows he's done in Congress if he does that.

[Didereaux]

22. I live in his district and....

He is 72 years old, he could give a rats ass. He is a loose cannon. We in his district(thanks to Delays redistricting) have learned not to predict the old coot, he lives in his own world.

[CGowen]

24. Is it true that he was gerrymandered into a black district or is it just a rumor? n/t

[Didereaux]

30. Yes, more or less... here's what occured...

Delay had two goals in mind, namely get rid of Nick Lampson a fairly powerful but behind the scenes Democrat(odd district that went from Beaumont to ClearLake/HoustonNASA and Galveston. The second was to rid the party of the gadfly Ron Paul who just never played the same ballgame as DeLAy. Lampsons district did have a fairly large black and other minority demographic, so DeLay sliced out most of those and put Lampsons home district into Delays home district which is Sugerland/Brazoria, Lampson lost that election 2004. But he didn't figure on being forced out of office before the next elections and the Repugnants got to fighting amongst themselves so long that their eventual candidate Sekula-Gibbs was left off the ballots and a write in caampaign had to be launched...turns out repugnuts aren't good speeling and Lampson wound up the elected representative of DeLays home district and the Democrats couldn't field a viable candidate either time against Paul so he remained as well.

All told DeLay had a very bad last coupla years! LOL

That's more or less the gist of it all.

[CGowen]

31. thanks...n/t

[BoneDaddy]

12. And maybe this line of thinking is correct

I have watched the "left" champion people's freedoms to becoming as fascistic as the right when it comes to restricting people's freedoms.

SAD

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. right-wing libertarians don't just want to be left alone.

They don't want to be regulated in anyway. If they own construction companies, they're probably very knowledgeable on how to sue a city to break their city ordinances. They fight back against every imaginable setback, and that's what they do in their work lives.

They're no different in their private lives.

The problem is, that you aren't reading between the lines. They want complete freedom, and it will eventually infringe on your life, because the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

[Skidmore]

14. Seems to me that the republican corporate wing has done this already.

They disregard regulation and break laws with impunity.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. Exactly. They continue to skirt the laws, because no one can stop them.

No one has been able to organize a true court challenge to the property rights groups which are organizing across this country. They have been attacking our city governments since the 1980s, until there are really no true public servants left. Just people who are good at being told what to do, and look the other way.

No federal or state, regulatory or criminal, agency even has them on their radar. Yet, make no mistake, they are very active and organized, and the public doesn't even know it.

[pretzel4gore]

21. right wingers don't actually do anything....

not in the interest of privilege, not if it's grinding thankless work, as privilege by design must be foisted on the public, and stealing candy from a baby is sooo easy (after all, goofball bush did it, after goofball reagan set the standards, after nixon suggested how)
the real question is whether the public isn't such a pos that hitler bush franco swartshog papa doc duvalier ghenhis khan aren't really the best they/we deserve- even napoleon had to con the public to get it to go along with the civil code. In the US Aaron Burr would note that contempt for the people is inherent in the men who rule, and only rarely does pity temper it....
god maybe made a big fukking mistake- humanity loves being slaves of ignorance. And that's just silly

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. The public can't organize against them, because the public is being

given mixed messages. It's the same reason that people decide to become Republican even if they qualify for welfare, because the Republicans say all the right things, hit all the hot buttons, character assassinate anyone who opposes them, but in the end, they're really the "I got mine, you get yours," party.

[ourbluenation]

54. Exactly. There isn't one libertarian government on the planet for a reason...it would be chaos. n/t

[Skidmore]

57. Perhaps not, but it seems to me that is is the natural consequence

to an form of oppression. A deconstruction, if you will, as a prelude to a reformation. Certainly there has been cyles in history like this.

[mmonk]

16. You are correct. And his message is taking hold.

I just dropped my son off at the State fair in my city to volunteer for a booth for NC State. Ron Paul signs were everywhere along the road. I also see Ron Paul signs along the route to my office. There are no other Presidential race signs along either street. I do not want a libertarian government or libertarian executive branch. But I think the fact congress has done little to stop political abuses or opposed the war in strongly enough stated terms or actions is costing us and I feel independents aren't going to be with us. We need stronger leadership with less equivication if we are to be guaranteed the executive branch that this cautious party leadership has said is ours by default.

[KoKo]

50. Same thing in my part of the Triangle....Ron Paul signs up everywhere

and no signs or bumperstickers for anyone else. The disillusioned Bush worshipers want to distance themselves by now thinking they are libertarians who were hoodwinked by Bush. I wondered if it's the "pox on both parties" syndrome...and some of the people who went for Ross Perot re-surfacing. C-Span has a growing movement of hysterical callers who sound similar to the ones who were mounting the Ross Perot movement back during the first Clinton run.

[mmonk]

52. Yep, that's what it sounds or looks like is going on.

We are evidently close to the same areas of the triangle.

[Mrs. Overall]

51. Yes, I awoke one day last week and found my entire town covered in Ron Paul signs--

I live outside Seattle in an area that is about 40% Republican and 60% Democratic. The signs were everywhere and I have noticed quite a few cars with Ron Paul bumperstickers.

[TimBean]

62. Check his voting record

H J Res 114: To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Ron Paul Voted NO
Dennis Kucinich voted NO

Hillary Clinton voted YES
John Edwards voted YES
Joseph Biden voted YES
Christopher Dodd voted YES


H J Res 88: Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relating to marriage. (to exclude gay marriage specifically)
Ron Paul Voted NO


Patriot act of 2001
Ron Paul voted NO

Clinton voted YES
John Edwards voted YES


more at vote-smart.org

[undeterred]

17. Read this Libertarian Reaction to Crandon homicides

(Greenfield) Six Wisconsin young people, recent victims of firearms violence on Sunday morning in the hamlet of Crandon, are being buried this weekend. All of victims were unarmed when shot down. The State of Wisconsin forbids Wisconsin citizens younger than 21 to purchase and carry a firearm, even for self defense. Unless, that is, they are law enforcement officers, either active or retired.

The assailant, 20 year old Tyler Peterson, was a full-time sheriff's deputy and part-time police officer. Therefore, he had ready access to an AR-15 rifle (the semi-automatic version of the M-16).

"It would be encouraging to learn that the citizen who shot the mass murderer was a civilian, perhaps a public-spirited resident of the North Woods who put his hunting rifle to its best use, protecting the innocent. After all, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms Amendment to the Wisconsin constitution was intended to ensure that law-abiding citizens have the means to defend themselves and others from anyone who may attack or threaten the innocent," said Linda Sturtzen, Chair of the Libertarian Party of Wisconsin. Article I, Section 25 of the constitutions says that all citizens have the right to bear arms for self defense or any other lawful purpose.

"How can the Legislature justify that only the police should carry firearms when the latest atrocity was carried out by a police officer?," asked Sturtzen. Sturtzen observes that even young Iraq vets are banned from purchasing a firearm if they are younger than 21. Libertarians feel that Wisconsin would be safer if more, not fewer, responsible citizens carried firearms.

The Platform of the Libertarian Party of Wisconsin supports the constitutional rights of responsible citizens by stating, "We believe the right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. We therefore oppose all laws which tax or otherwise restrict the ownership, open or concealed carry, manufacture, transfer, or sale of firearms or ammunition." The Libertarian Party of Wisconsin is the third largest political party in Wisconsin. The LPWI believes that no conflict exists between civil order and individual rights and that individuals, groups, or governments should not initiate force against other individuals, groups, or governments.

http://www.wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=107359

Its really easy to convince people in the rural parts of the state that this is the way to go. But this is where the mass shooting tragedies have happened. And I think there would be even more of them if people in big cities like Madison and Milwaukee were armed to the teeth also.

[CGowen]

18. Were you listening to his famous speech "Neo-Conned" from 2003?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:

1.They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
2.They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
3.They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
4.They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hardball politics is a moral necessity.
5.They express no opposition to the welfare state.
6.They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
7.They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
....

16.They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
17.They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

[fed-up]

19. Ron Paul was one of 2 that voted NAY on Methamphetamine Remediation Research Act of 2007

f*ck him or maybe he would like to buy my uncleaned (nondisclosed to me at time of purchase) former meth lab house

http://www.naco.org/Template.cfm?Section=Environment,_Energy_and_Land_Use&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=22630

Meth Cleanup Bill Approved by House
On February 7, the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed the NACo-supported Methamphetamine Remediation Research Act of 2007 (H.R.365) by a vote of 426-2. The two members voting against the legislation were Reps. Ron Paul (R-Texas) and Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.). The bill is sponsored by Science Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.), Ranking Member Ralph Hall (R-Texas), Reps. David Wu (D-Ore.) and Ken Calvert (R-Calif.). The legislation would authorize the Environmental Protection Agency to develop voluntary cleanup standards for former meth labs. Prior to House approval, NACo Executive Director Larry Naake participated in a press conference on the bill with Chairman Gordon and several new members of the House including: Reps. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.), Baron Hill (D-Ind.), Brad Ellsworth (D-Ind.) and Dave Loebsack (D-Iowa). A Senate companion bill is expected to be introduced in the next few months by Senators Gordon Smith (R-Ore.) and Max Baucus (D-Mont.). (Contact: Joe Dunn 202/942-4207 or [email protected])

[sendero]

20. And you know what....

... if it weren't for business and economics, I'd agree with him TOTALLY.

The only problem is that under libertarian economic policies, we'd have an Enron every day, consumer fraud, contaminated or defective products, and corporate ripoffs left and right. Because these loony tunes actually think companies would act more morally with less oversight.

Only in their simplistic dreams.

[mmonk]

23. They are just part of the anti-government anti-tax radicalism.

Everything is "big government" this or "socialism" that. The problem is you may as well not even have a society at all if you listen to them.

[pretzel4gore]

39. no more date codes....!

best before dates etc. they should be unregulated :sarcasm: (already bread companies add several days to bbd's, so you read them AFTER the bread's in the store- and mouldy bread often does sell)...also on cans, BBD's are usually 2/3 years. But everyday entire skids of canned product goes to landfill, in every town and city on earth. Unlike bread, vacuum packed canned goods, with glass lined cans, are good forever (or several years, snyway!) but food companys intentionally print BBd's close as possible; the system then has to pay for colossal waste (and don't think the BBDates aren't sometimes fixed) which they then replace...
Just in this ONE little area of gov regulation, one can find the spirit of the law bent so the letters fits! And when one has seen mouldy dry dogfood-which dogs still would eagerly eat, the importance of date codes is obvious, and the necessity for gov regulation is plain. The system works almost by default. But the packaged food inspection system has been allowed to regress, and only by having lots of dedicated inspectors can it possibly work as time passes. Anyone who works in food, preparation, packaging or handling knows gov is really the only thing between good and very very bad (interestingly, reading recently about Victorian England when fine wines imported from Italy and France Spain etc were adulterated with water then SPIKED with arsenic and strychine, to restore the ole kick! Mygod! Strychnine! And the rich, anti gov/tax types were the people who drank the corrupted wines etc! Needless to say after too many sudden 'orriible and very spectacular deaths at the dinner table, the gov was empowered to inspect the wines etc...lol)

[bowens43]

25. what they are seeing is a nut job who wants to lead us into the 18th century

other then his stance on the war, this guy is a raving lunatic. He would seek to destroy everything that liberals and progressives have fought for over the last hundred years.

[kurth]

27. Libertarians like Neal Boortz?

Remember most "libertarians" have voted with Republicans.

[struggle4progress]

35. "Ron Paul .. voted with .. his Republican colleagues 75.0% of the time"

Washington Post Votes Database
Voting with Party
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/p000583/

[Skidmore]

60. Boortz, a Libertarian?

He's a full-fledged neocon. Breathes *'s air for him.

[ThePowerofWill]

29. I can feel it.

Heck i been waiting on it to start. We have been going through a very repressive era, losing many rights, and seeing the rise of an almost police/nanny like state. Many of us out here feel that whole "just leave me the fuck alone already" mentality.

I respect Ron Paul. Maybe not for his full tilt list of positions, but for his honesty. I can respect an honest man/woman even if i don't agree with them. Having the spine to say what you really believe is a rarity we see none to often.

[tuckessee]

32. People are getting sick petty gov't interference.

After being fined, threatened with jail & property seizure for trying to replace aluminum siding with vinyl siding on my home I kind of understand.

[PATRICK]

33. The real worry

is that he IS addressing a hardcore reality the others avoid. The people who back him are no longer part of the great evasion and feel no confidence in "leaders" who still are. People on this site should recognize the feeling. It's called those who see in the land of the blind are ignored, persectued, written off and opposed. Libertarian types have been suckered by demagogues who sound out the truths. Well, what about liberals with that everlasting hope the silent, passive Dems actually know and will someday act on that silent knowledge? People who see are grasping at straws and canes while those who are blind lash out like they dont where they are going- and don't.

Libertarians, mostly poor disadvantaged ones at that, have their wild delusions and we have ours and self-righteously softer ones.

I have one son backing Ron Paul and I have no perfect argument except that his defeat by the GOP is etched in steel. The Dems could have these people, all DU types and many more if they decided to help people just see and not be a fuzzy part of the big problem. The big problem that entitles an incompetent ugly sociopath some sort of bully god over all civilization. And ignores truth by necessity.

This partly goes with why the Dems are never shoo-ins, never clear, never certain and never confronting the GOP except on the GOP terms. In the GOP choice is crushed by bossism, currently the Dyanasty. Third parties are now a threat to Dems for the same reason they have abandonned so many passionate, truth seeing, socially concerned groups. All the rules and expectations are veered away from and the DLC philosophy is as big an actual curse as any global elite conspiracy whether is emasculates Dems or enables fraudulent GOP undemocratic victories.

[RainDog]

36. excellent post

Paul does speak to people of all political beliefs who are disgusted by the politics as usual. His economic ideas are untenable, but his unwillingness to create an empire and his respect for personal privacy are issues that are not addressed by mainstrem democrats. I'm glad he is in the running just to talk about things that no other candidates will in ways that so many can relate to (as you said...just leave me alone.) Same with Kucinich.

[ozone_man]

47. Great post!

I'm not very familiar with Ron Paul, but happen to agree with some of his positions. Being a Conservative Libertarian (big L), he offers some very different views like anti-Iraq War, abolishing the FED, and even legalizing marijuana (not that I have done that since I was young). These issues I might expect to see from a candidate like Kucinich or Gravel, over in the third quadrant of the political compass. They are social libertarians (small l). This is where my political "coordinates" lie, so it's strange when I hear Paul talk and find myself nodding, waiting for other Republican candidate's heads to explode. Listening to the recent Republican debate I happened to hear Paul for about five minutes, the only time I've ever seen or heard him. But he was right on. Granted, I haven't listened to him talk on certain social issues, that I'm sure I wouldn't agree on.

By comparison, I was listening to Hillary Clinton (Conservative Authoritarian) defend her Iraq War vote, saying that it was not a mistake, and her continued support of the war, defending her stand on job outsourcing, and suggesting a 401K plan for Wall Street made me realize that I disagree more with what she seems to say than what Ron Paul was saying. I think they are roughly orthogonal to each other (about 90° apart).

So, what I'm saying here is that we tend to marginalize candidates based on certain positions instead of sifting out the good ideas from the bad ones. The social libertarian, as I believe the majority of DUers are from their political compass bearing, doesn't really get represented well by the field of candidates. Kucinich is the best fit overall, but if I was at a political salad bar, I would take some Ron Paul to get out of Iraq and abolish the FED. And maybe even a bit of Hillary, she's a social liberal after all.

The bigger problem is that we are stuck with this two party system, and both parties are in the first quadrant, both are conservative authoritarian. The Republicans are deeper into the first quadrant, that's the only difference. We need a third party that is social libertarian. Or we need to drag the Democratic Party all the way into the third quadrant. See graphs below:







Considering the political difference between the average DUer and Ron Paul or Hillary Clinton, you see there is not much difference in vector magnitude. I find nearly as much to agree or disagree with either candidate. The point is more conceptual, that we just aren't represented very well, that we live in an authoritarian, bordering on fascist country. This I hope is not a permanent state.

[NC_Nurse]

40. I think many of his supporters realize that he has some strange ideas

about economic issues. They don't care because they know there is no way he could change the system completely in 4 years anyway.
He could get us out of this war, and that's what they want. I can certainly understand that feeling.

[Greyhound]

41. You're crazy. n/t

[L. Coyote]

46. Allright, this is better thsn Goldwater, the last guy to really worry about.

[BlackVelvet04]

56. I agree....

between the rightwing language, sex and security gestapo and the leftwing nanny staters people are eventually going to get totally fed up with government interference and what is left then is libertarian ideals.

[Snarkturian Clone]

59. Bingo. NT

[fujiyama]

58. He's not getting the nomination

No way in hell.

Though, he could run as an independant or on the libertarian party's ticket...

[dbt]

61. There sure as hell needs to be SOME SORT OF BACKLASH.

1. The Republics have fucked this country over.

2. The Democrats LET them do it.

3. Discuss.

4. Refute if possible.

[ozone_man]

64. Yeah, what's up with that?

Don't blame us, both of our senators voted against that war. But Democrats as a whole are a spineless bunch. Time for a Dean transplant I guess. ;)

If there was a candidate who promised to get us out of Iraq immediately (and he/she wasn't lying), I'd probably vote for them. Unfortunately, Democrat or Republican doesn't seem to matter much. They are both war parties. I recommend a documentary "Why We Fight (2006)".