FUCK THIS COUNTRY. WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE.

[MLFerrell]

Coffee, Tea, or Should We Feel Your Pregnant Wife’s Breasts...?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x313797




Cop shoots man. Cop cuffs man. Then he pistol whips him. All on video. No charges laid. No investigation.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZZQZKHB7bUQ



Science teacher's brush with police ends in heart attack
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/10/08/2007-10-08_science_teachers_brush_with_police_ends_.html



Cop Pepper Sprays, Punches, Nearly Breaks Girl's Arm During Curfew Arrest
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/october2007/051007_curfew_arrest.htm



Videotapes of angry officers savagely beating civilians and charges that a murder plot was hatched within an elite special operations unit have Chicago's troubled police department reeling again.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070930/ap_on_re_us/police_scandals_4



Oakland cop beats, tasers, then kills.
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/09/oakland-cop-beats-tasers-then-kills.html



N.C. man charged with coughing assault
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21018299/



School Guards Break Child's Arm And Arrest Her For Dropping Cake
http://www.infowars.net/articles/september2007/280907Cake.htm



A St. George, Missouri police officer is caught on tape threatening to invent charges to arrest a motorist for parking after hours
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1961.asp



Deputies subdue autistic boy with Taser
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser19sep19%2C0%2C2376553.story?coll=la-home-center



Tasered student nets worldwide attention
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/68791.html



Wheelchair-Bound Woman Dies After Being Shocked With Taser 10 Times
http://news.yahoo.com/s/wkmg/20070919/lo_wkmg/14147512



In America people face up to six months in jail for wearing clothes lawmakers don't like
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/09/in-america-people-face-up-to-six-months.html




There can be no denying it. We are living in a police state, where pigs are above the law, and the people are just supposed to shut the fuck up about it OR ELSE. Fuck this country. It's not America anymore.


EDIT: added more links

[niyad]

1. and it hasn't been siince 12/12/2000, when five REPUBLICAN-appointed members of the

Supreme Court abrogated the constitution and installed georgie boy as king.

it's only going to get worse. frankly, I am truly surprised that martial law has not yet been instituted (the bird flu scare was, I believe, a trial balloon about using the military to squelch civilians)

[zonmoy]

176. the fascist takeover started a lot earlier than that.

it takes a lot of time to co-opt both major political parties.

or does it just take threats to the so called liberal party telling them that if they try to stop them they will be killed or put in concentration camps with the undesirables.

[aquart]

2. Anymore? Were you asleep in EVERY American history class?

What blithering, witless hysteria.

[robcon]

3. You haven't any idea what a police state is.

n/t

[Cetacea]

20. Ok then. A police brutality state. n/t

[MLFerrell]

62. See post #57.

[bos1]

111. do u have background to the second link?

shooting, cuffing, pistol whipping? Youtube has no context, no news link.

[tom_paine]

104. Actually, rob, only a fool would believe that there is only one kind of authoritarianism

and that it looks and acts a certain way.

If it doesn't act like that, then it cannot be aithoritarianism or totalitarianism.

Well, that is simply the fool's paradise. Byt please, don't let me tell you. Listen from the lips of a man who lived through Hitler's Rise as we are living throughthe rise of the next logical "kinder and gentler" incarnation of totalitarianism, designed to be so in order to act in this nation at this period of time.

robcon, who believes there is only one kind of totalitarianism, meet Karl Jaspers, a German psychiatrist who will tell you in his own words and experiences, how foolish it is to be lulled into a false sense of security in this fashion.

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/jaspers02.htm

What worked in Nazi Germany cannot work here, mostly because even people like you would notice it, and that is the one thing tyrants must avoid until it is too late for anyone to do anything about them. As many people as possible for as long as possible must be fooled, for any form of totalitarianism, past or present, to succeed.

Oh, and perhaps you would like to meet Milton Mayer, who also explains how foolish it is to fail to "resist the beginnings" and "foresee the ends".

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Pay special attention to this quote, rob, for this man is peaking directly to you from behind the veil of years:

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no (patriotic American) could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

So don't feel bad. In your denial, not only do you stand with the majority of Amerikans 2001-7 and the majority of Germans 1928-1937, but really, you stand with the vast majority of the human race, who does this same thing over and over and over, in so many different forms under so many different banners, that the story is a part of our shared cultural heritage, recently enshrined in the Star Wars Prequels.

The bottom line is this: what works in America 2007 could never have worked in Nazi Germany, where the people had no tradition of freedom such that they could be gleichschaltung ("brought into line") by "firmer" means.

Please feel free to cover your ears and sing little songs until any unpleasant thoughts I have raised in you go away.

Move along. Nothing to see here. Just a normal swing of the pendulum.

Oh, one more reading suggestion which I know you won't read because to do so threatens the denial that keeps you happy.

"I Will Bear Witness" by Victor Klemperer, which shows conclusively that, even in a society that turned to the purewst evil humanity has ever known, Nazi Germany, even for a Jew day-to-day life was so damned normal and humdrum until the Nazis had fully consolidate their unchecked power.

Therefore, I maintain you have little understanding of what authoritarianism or totalitarianism is. I would suggest you educate yourself on the topic (Hannah Arendt's books are excellent also) first.

[sce56]

170. This writing deserves a thread of it's own! Great work

[Pooka Fey]

192. Wonderful post. Thanks for the links. n/t

[Islander Expat]

118. I've been to a police state, and yes America is very much one.

Absolutely the USA a police state, anyone that says it isn't, has never been to a free country.

[MLFerrell]

123. Welcome to DU!

Hi! :hi:

"I've been to a police state, and yes America is very much one."

I agree that it's well on it's way to becoming one. Which police state have you visited?

EDIT: Brain Malfunction. Need More Coffee.

[Richardo]

138. So: What police state did you live in, and what are your ideals of freedom?

[Islander Expat]

205. Well, I'm a retired seaman, where do you want to talk about?

So I've been to Russia, mainland China even North Korea. I'd say Albania a few years back was about the weirdest fringe of authoritarianism that I've experienced.

But I'm retired here in the Visayas Islands, it a little rough around the edges, but my family and live free and have our liberties respected.

[ooglymoogly]

150. It is you how have not got a clue

How police states become police states...You are not paying attention. THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN BY HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.

[Marrah_G]

4. If you actually lived in a police state you would realize how foolish you sound

[Cetacea]

21. And this pattern is OK with you? n/t

[Chulanowa]

32. Well, I guess we'll just wait, then.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

56. I'll speak my mind thank you very much

Yes if we do not ensure police abuses are stopped and the Bush administrations rights violations are stopped then we could end up in a police state. But we are not in one now. If we WERE in one you wouldn't be typing, you would be in jail.

[immoderate]

142. You are naive.

I hear this all the time from right wingers. Fact is, the regime is not scared of me, yet. They don't have to arrest everyone who wears a Bush t-shirt, just a few, to have the effect they want. Some of the combat is waged by propagandists, who challenge the patriotism of dissenters. This lays the groundwork for future round-ups.

Then there's the no-fly list, which also has the effect of chilling dissent. (I know that I don't e-mail this White House with my complaints, like I did under the previous administration. If I can't fly, I'm out of business.)

Read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" to reveal the plan.

--IMM

[Marrah_G]

161. I am not naive

I simply have different opinions and views then your own. Kindly keep your insults to yourself. This conversation is over.. You can continue on if you wish to talk to yourself.

[immoderate]

168. Insults? Are you new here?

Indignation as rebuttal.

Thanks for giving me permission to talk to myself. Seems I've already been doing that. OK, then, I give you permission to be naive.

So having a different opinion is an insult?

--IMM

[UncleSepp]

243. The Nazi Seizure of Power explains it better

It all takes place in one town, and really shows the mundane details of how the Machtergreifung happened. Shirer does not go into the same depth, because it is so broad.

[zonmoy]

177. or would it.

we are in a lower level of a police state but one none the less. also it is much easier to marginalize people by giving them two choices of parties. one is farther right wing authoritarian than the other but both of them are right wing authoritarian.

[ShortnFiery]

51. I have lived in a Police State, and I'm here to tell you, this is NOT a good SIGN.

:thumbsdown:

[Richardo]

137. Which one?

[earth mom]

73. Jeez! How bad does it have to get?!

:wtf:

[Islander Expat]

117. No, he's right, America has been a police state for many years now

It's just that the people haven't gotten out of line.

[defendandprotect]

126. Right--!!! If they're not breaking everyone's arms, you're not in a police state -- !!!! ?????

Remember, the Nazis threw a lot of people off balconies and rounded up Jews, so we're not there yet.
Oh, you want to count our prison system filled with minorities?
Is that rounding-up? eh . . .

[davekriss]

143. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world

We imprison more of our citizens than any other nation on earth. More than China, more than Russia, more than North Korea. Does this not suggest something is amiss in America?

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

167. Calling other posters Nazis, even in a backhanded way is against the rules

[LeftCoast]

162. I agree Marrah.

The OP doesn't have a clue.

[bridgit]

180. agreed...

[AngryAmish]

5. don't tase me bro

[Snarkturian Clone]

37. here ya go.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lDTkTAo_l2g

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wGnhHufV-Lg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AQ8DgNAmL_c

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EqRf8odn7Xk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jlCyRIj6Iug

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wfJ2G_7Km2Y

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M-8nNE0N0yM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aN_pnQGjbx0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UQWTCkoznXs

:bounce:

[Webster Green]

6. I just heard that the boot camp pigs in Florida got cleared of manslaughter..

They killed a teenager while the jail-house nurse stood by watching.

Cleared of manslaughter while they should have faced murder charges.

The vast majority of cops are fascist fucking assholes!

[NeedleCast]

7. No, we're not

n/t

[Chulanowa]

29. Show me some prosecutions

Show me an instance where a police force doesn't close ranks.
Show me how many other cops you have arrested and charged. I know you've got to know a few who need it.

You might not be one of these assholes. I'll bet you're standing by complicitly while some other asshole you work with pulls shit like this, though. Unless maybe you're in Mayberry

[KAZ]

50. Brilliant! I look forward to your next utterence...

... with great eagerness.

[pokercat999]

108. You are part of a "brotherhood" or you are an outcast in

your department. Admit it, describe it for the civilians, you know exactly what I'm talking about. That, are you are so indoctrinated that you can't or don't want to see it.

[Purveyor]

8. According to a Zogby pollster on CNBC this afternoon, 10.1% of US households are

activing considering leaving this country.

When I first heard it, tried to find a related article but came up empty handed.

[ThomCat]

10. I've seriously investigation the possibility.

But there are health considerations that make it impossible.

I'd love to be able to leave the US. :(

[Hydra]

12. I would be one of those

If I had the money, I'd be running so fast I'd leave a flaming trail :evilgrin:

[Boudica the Lyoness]

23. I've lived here since the early 70's

I feel so bad that my two sons are American citizens. I shouldn't have stayed here. The police frighten me and it's hard to get ahead financially. My friends who I grew up with and my cousins in England are all doing great financially and all are world travelers. Last week I heard from another friend who I hadn't heard from in 35 years, he's a business owner and a millionaire. I'm stunned! He's just an ordinary bloke. He's living life to the fullest. They are all well off and enjoying life. We try to get ahead but are beaten back down by medical bills. My teeth need attention really bad and I'm going to need surgery next year so I can walk again and the insurance company are going to fight us. O SHIT!
I was reading about that freeper who was so proud his wife always made sure they had medical insurance, he said they live in a tiny 1953 house. They are like cattle in a feedlot, they have grub thrown at them and they can't see the big picture.
A woman wrote to the local newspaper a few weeks ago and said 'if people don't LIKE the troops they should move to another country then you'd know how good you've got it here'. I know her, besides being as thick as shit, she's never left the country. Her grandson quotes Rush on his myspace.
I want to go home now. This is a bad country.

[Hydra]

28. Hopefully I'll see you there

I was born here, but as much as I love the land, I hate the people that own it.

I'll go adopt someplace else as my home.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

148. English Lady, it may not be too late to get your sons British passports

depending on how old they are.

I know a couple of European expats who have done that, specifically to protect their children from any possible draft and to give them an easy escape route if things get too bad.

[earth mom]

76. I'm with ya. If I had the money I'd be outta here in a nano second!

Or at least as long as it took to sell my stuff. :hi:

[Megahurtz]

26. That Is A

serious consideration. I don't believe things are going to get any better here.

[trusty elf]

38. My brother and his wife and four kids recently moved to France.

I've been living in Switzerland for years and doubt whether I'll ever go back.

I (half) jokingly told my brother he should ask for political asylum. He says he's never going back either.

It's sad really.

[MattSh]

165. Yep, out of the US two years now,

and loving it. Went back to visit for a few weeks and found I didn't miss it much. I have several brothers and sisters in the states but that might not be enough to get me to even visit. My only regret is my 80 yo mom. Who knows if I'll see her again?

[Deja Q]

214. Why not be humane; fly your loved ones out of the country?

Or is that too much a selfless, loving thing to do?

[mnhtnbb]

52. We are. We bought property in Panama in 2005.

[Purveyor]

58. Panama was mentioned as one of the favorite destinations. They call it the new 'Florida'. eom

[MLFerrell]

61. If I could find a decent job in Canada, Europe, Australia, or New Zealand, I'd be gone ASAP.

Anyone know of decent work to be had for an American with a soon-to-be Masters in History?

Anyone?

[NYC]

70. Did they say why?

I'm very curious.

[bdamomma]

79. we shouldn't be doing the running, this thuggish regime we have

should be doing the running, we need to make them afraid of us, not the other way around, but we already know * is a coward and lives in a bubble.

[fujiyama]

101. I'm seriously ready myself..Wow 10% though?

If I find an opportunity, I'm packing my bags. Until drastic changes occur, the appeal this nation once had is fading...The future just seems very bleak....

[Greyhound]

106. If I had the money my shadow would have to run to catch up.

Unfortunately, there are no other countries that will let us in without a fairly large stack of money.

:shrug:

[kedrys]

119. Our plan is to be out of the U.S. by the end of the year

I've been in the States 28 years, and never thought I'd go back to Canada, but we've come to the conclusion that staying here is insane.

[Deja Q]

207. Bye

Have fun, but if this "North American Union" is anywhere near true, you'll just be wasting your time and money. ;)

BTW: Canada looks after its own for jobs before they take in imported people. Good luck.

[kedrys]

238. Snarky!

I'm Canadian, so I'll be looked after. The s.o. is a de facto Canadian by virtue of us being married, which means that health care and work permit are only contingent on not having typos in the paperwork.

And if it comes to having to escape to Europe, it'll be a lot easier to do from Canada than from the States, traveling with Canadian passports and such.

[kedrys]

125. Found this through Google News

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB119041441207935747.html

Seems to have the numbers you mention.

[davekriss]

144. That's amazing, but believable

The thought has crossed my mind more than once. If I didn't have a family in tow, it might be a probability.

[ThomCat]

9. Anyone who thinks it's "just a few bad apples" on the police force

is a total idiot. It's not a few bad apples. It's the entire current culture of law enforcement, together with a total lack of accountability. Even the so-called good cops are supporting the bad cops. That makes them all guilty. There are very few really good cops left.

At this point, the corruption is so entrenched, supported and reinforced that there's little we can do.

We are an authoritarian country with a hostile police force. As often than not, the police are a bigger threat to us than the criminals.
x(

[fujiyama]

102. Good post

An atmosphere of intense authoritarianism fostered and encouraged by this administration has helped empower such thugs in the police force. Coupled with a lack of accountability, a surplus of weapons, returning soldiers (and the mercenary thugs) who will possibly apply the same law enforcement tactics as they did in Iraq...and gee, you have one awful combination. And as it has often been for a LONG time now, officers often will not hold other officers accountable. PERIOD.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. In any organization or group, the people at the top set the tone

The administration's use of torture has emboldened the more thuggish members of the law enforcement community and the "hanging judge" types.

[tigereye]

124. it's interesting - I don't know a lot of police officers personally -

some here have been in trouble for racism and there is a police accountablity board, which is good.

I sometimes like to watch Cops, since I think it is one of the most interesting reality shows - often brutal, but usually the police at least try to take a reasonable approach to the problem before folks are hand-cuffed and arrested. My husband and I often call the show "social workers with guns." Granted I don't know if it appears this way since I suspect those shows are often vetted and edited.


OTOH, there was an incident very near where I live where one of the small suburban police forces (we have many here) over-reacted and maced and injured war protesters when they crossed over the city line into their borough. I called the borough where I live and complained. The folks there said that the borough I lived in had not hurt anyone, but that the police in the borough next to ours had. There were some people I knew among the protestors.

I think that fits with the OP's contention that the police often over-react to a situation that needs no violence.

[Odin2005]

11. Reality check: If we lived in a police state we wouldn't be posting here.

If we lived in a police state Olbermann wouldn't be on TV. If we lived in a police state protestors would be treated like they are being treated in Burma. If we lived in a police state we wouldn't be seeing LTTEs criticizing Bush in newspapers. Saying we live in a police state is an insult to people who live or have lived in a real police state. Asshole cops does not equal a police state.

[DS1]

13. thank you

:thumbsup:

[AlCzervik]

14. correct and well said.

[nashville_brook]

16. if we don't stand opposed to these offenses to liberty, DU and Olbie will be next.

[Mad_Dem_X]

18. That's correct

The internet could be next, if we don't put a stop to this fascism right now!

I don't even recognize my fuckin' country any more. It's disgusting.

[Cetacea]

It seems that the increased brutality is acceptable to some. n/t

[Marrah_G]

33. Perhaps those people can see the difference between some bad police incidents and

OMG WE LIVE IN A POLICE STATE. Obviously you have no clue what a real police state is like or you wouldn't make the comparison.

Yes we need to find a way to keep police from abusing power. That is a very different statement from the one you made.

[John Q. Citizen]

67. The perfect police state is where people don't even realize they are living in one.

Think about it.

[NYC]

72. The horse doesn't feel the reins

until he tries to stray.

[NotGivingUp]

87. Exactly. Time for some of you people to smarten up. n/t

[earth mom]

77. You need to read the Constitution because NONE of this shit is acceptable. NONE.

:puke:

[Marrah_G]

78. Not acceptable does not equal Police state

Police state is a very specific term.

If we aren't careful we could turn into one. But we are not one now.

[earth mom]

81. Nope don't think so. You need to read this thread & the recommended books in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2010566

[Marrah_G]

83. I have read the thread

And you and I have a very different definition of the term police state. That is not going to change. What we have in common is the deep concern about where this country is headed and the gradual loss of rights.

[earth mom]

84. The gradual loss of rights is EXACTLY one of the warning signs.

Studying Nazi Germany is an excellent way of understanding that history is repeating itself in this country-right here right now.

[Marrah_G]

86. I agree

I don't agree that we are already a police state though. If we were we would not be posting on this site. I think the disagreement between us is mostly semantic. I acknowledge that if we continue on this path we could end up in a police state and that we need to continue to fight to make sure that does not happen. I just do not believe we fit the definition right now.

[earth mom]

88. So if we aren't allowed to post on DU tomorrow, or next week after the Topoff 4

exercises-that some believe may be a repeat LIHOP or MIHOP of 9/11 or 7/7-then will you believe?

Like how bad does it have to get? :shrug:

[pokercat999]

110. OK Mr Webster, how long should we wait, how many

rights should we surrender before we can utter the magic words and officially be in a police state?

[davekriss]

154. While I agree with you...

...despite the fact that the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world, you could settle matters on this thread by defining for others what you think a "police state" is.

[Deja Q]

206. Look at American history, some of these things have been curtailed before.

The Habeus Corpus was suspended during the Civil War.

Look at World Wars 1 and 2; especially #2 (the real shitter).

World War 1 had some freedoms suspended. They came back.

Some of the internment camps and other things implemented WERE wrong. But there's that little expression many people use when voting, and it damn well applies equally well here: "The lesser of two evils". Those internment camps of WW2 were wrong. But I would have supported them at the time too. It could have been far worse to have taken a chance. Espionage isn't just a plot device in a novel, you know!!

What's going on today is HARDLY unprecedented.

[mrcolson]

159. Police State

I would say that if you are in need of a way to keep the police from abusing power, you're living in a police state.

[Mnemosyne]

189. Nailed it, mrcolson.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

I live in a small town/rural community. We've been having "drunk driving" check-points for at least a decade now. The local rag recently had an article bragging about the cops being able to pull you over to check seat belts now. In Alabama I ran into "safety" checkpoints in the mid-90's.

And it has only gotten worse.

There always talk about the 'meth epidemic' but all I ever see busted in the paper are tokers.:shrug:

I tried to get help from a charity to replace my frig a couple years ago and they kept insisting they needed my SS#.:grr:

It's many small things over time until...

[cali]

39. Yes, it's important to address these incidents- though I might

add, some of the examples given are debatable as to whether they constitute police brutality, and none provide proof that we live in a police state. But frankly, your line about DU being next is akin to the terra, terra, terra shit that comes from the right.

[nashville_brook]

45. puhlease -- get real, just for a second, and then go back to your regularly scheduled snark

i used that as an example b/c that was offered in the post i was responding to.

[cali]

49. Let's see: You responded to this

Reality check: If we lived in a police state we wouldn't be posting here.
If we lived in a police state Olbermann wouldn't be on TV. If we lived in a police state protestors would be treated like they are being treated in Burma. If we lived in a police state we wouldn't be seeing LTTEs criticizing Bush in newspapers. Saying we live in a police state is an insult to people who live or have lived in a real police state. Asshole cops does not equal a police state.


And i responded substantively to you. And the best you can come up with is snark to a comment that wasn't snark. What's the word I'm looking for? Oh, yeah. Irony.


Your remark about "them" coming after DUers was ridiculous unless your comment to post 11 was sarcasm, and as you didn't indicate that it was...

[MLFerrell]

89. "Asshole cops does not equal a police state."

No, granted, you are correct in that assertion.

But "asshole cops" is the first step toward a police state, no?

A willing "enforcer class" is certainly a prerequisite to the infamous brown-shirt tactics that characterize a "true" police state, in your estimation.

Slippery Slope, and all that Jazz...

[orleans]

100. here's my contribution to a pissing contest re a thread on smoke/kids/cars

(speaking of slippery slopes)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2020234&mesg_id=2022053

and this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2020234&mesg_id=2028102


it's late--i'm a little spacey--in case i'm not making the connection here, what i'm trying to say is that i'm agreeing with you.

[cali]

116. Could be. Could be some measure

taken by the gov't. I'm much warier of the Patriot Act and warrantless wiretapping for example.

[UncleSepp]

244. The brownshirts didn't start as asshole cops.

The precursors to the SA were private, armed, paramilitary political groups. In the Soviet Union, the precursors to the police state were also armed paramilitary political groups. In China, it was armed, paramilitary political groups. Police states come not from police, but from private political armies - political parties with guns and blackjacks, who eventually rise to power and give authority to their militarized members.

Brownshirt tactics were not roughing up random suspected lawbreakers, or even random people. Brownshirt tactics were, in the beginning, roughing up political opponents and breaking up meetings. The actual police prosecuted the SA, and tried to ban them. It didn't work - trotz Verbot, nicht tot? Marching in white shirts when the brown ones were banned ringing any bells for you?

[SlowDownFast]

219. Ready and willing.

*If* DU and Olbie (or anything else that are the last bastions of free speech) are gone, I break out my so-far restrained Revolutionary.

Don't matter if *they* come get me in the end:

I'm as peace-loving as they come, but if *they* decide they're coming to fuck with me or mine, I'll be taking out *at least* a few Nazis with my FMJ loaded 30-.06/7mm/.308 (for those Kevlar-wearing MFr's) and my Mossberg Persuader 12ga (for Close Encounters).

I recommend all gun-fearing liberals learn to stop fearing the tools of the Freedom/Revolutionary trade.

I really hope for some peaceful change in this country - but it's gonna be what it's gonna be, and I got plenty of like-minded neighbors in my neck 'o the woods.

Fuck a bunch of Blackwater thugs.

I ain't skeered.

[backscatter712]

42. WRONG! TOTALLY FUCKING WRONG!

I said it earlier in this thread - the level of fascism isn't a boolean - it comes on gradually. Of course, people aren't going to accept a full-scale police state, so they bring in on gradually, habituate you to it, take a small freedom away, make you thing "This isn't so bad." then take another small freedom away, and keep dissecting our liberties piecemeal, until one day, thinking everything's fine, we look around and discover that liberty is dead.

SO WAKE THE FUCK UP!

[mudesi]

47. THANK YOU

I never ceases to amaze me how many people don't get it.

[Divine Discontent]

195. I get it... some on this board don't.

My whole (and first comment) point on this is that there are TOO many millions of us to just outright say we're in a police state, but what has been done is absurd - you can't do MANY things you could do 50 years ago. The thing is, that they are situational-police-state proponents. Meaning - if someone does something they don't like, they taze THAT person they happened to SEE doing something. Like the airport absurdity that's going on. Tazering someone because they're obnoxiously hyper and just need talked calmly to (as Kerry was starting to work on before they yanked Andrew away), so, I think we're a huge country, and if we all just said no to the bullshit to our police chiefs, sherriffs, and politicians when we get the chance - we can have an effect against the strangle hold that is the status-quo/conservative/neocon fascist movement before us.

sorry if I'm not clear enough - I just sense a strong push to fascism since 9/11 and also a push against all things we hold dear being slowly taken away piece by piece. We are not IN an official police state, but we're heading there unless WE stop them in the way I suggested above.

[Odin2005]

68. The US isn't Germany.

Americans have a very strong libertarian "don't tread on me" mindset that many other countries don't. "Creeping Fascism" may work in, say, Russia, but in the US it's like a pressure-cooker that will explode in the wannabe totalitarians' faces.

[Usrename]

114. Do you really think that law-abiding citizens will just run amok?

This line of reasoning that you are using isn't all that well thought out, if you ask me.

When these abuses of our civil liberties are made "legal" then who are you going to complain to?

Who are these "don't tread on me" citizens going to point their weapons at? The local mayor or sherrif?

I don't get how you can believe such nonsense. As if everyone will wake up some morning and simultaneously decide to become felons, all on their own without organizing or anything. How does someone come to believe this stuff?

edit> syntax

[davekriss]

160. We don't have to be Germany to be a neo-fascist state

From an oldy but a goodie, an article from 2003,

A Kind of Fascism Is Replacing Our Democracy
by Sheldon S. Wolin
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0718-07.htm

...Like previous forms of totalitarianism, the Bush administration boasts a reckless unilateralism that believes the United States can demand unquestioning support, on terms it dictates; ignores treaties and violates international law at will; invades other countries without provocation; and incarcerates persons indefinitely without charging them with a crime or allowing access to counsel.

-snip-

The American system is evolving its own form: "inverted totalitarianism." This has no official doctrine of racism or extermination camps but, as described above, it displays similar contempt for restraints.

It also has an upside-down character. For instance, the Nazis focused upon mobilizing and unifying the society, maintaining a continuous state of war preparations and demanding enthusiastic participation from the populace. In contrast, inverted totalitarianism exploits political apathy and encourages divisiveness. The turnout for a Nazi plebiscite was typically 90 percent or higher; in a good election year in the United States, participation is about 50 percent.

-snip-

While Nazi control of the media meant that only the "official story" was communicated, that result is approximated by encouraging concentrated ownership of the media and thereby narrowing the range of permissible opinions.

-snip-

In institutionalizing the "war on terrorism" the Bush administration acquired a rationale for expanding its powers and furthering its domestic agenda. While the nation's resources are directed toward endless war, the White House promoted tax cuts in the midst of recession, leaving scant resources available for domestic programs. The effect is to render the citizenry more dependent on government, and to empty the cash-box in case a reformist administration comes to power.

Americans are now facing a grim situation with no easy solution. Perhaps the just-passed anniversary of the Declaration of Independence might remind us that "whenever any form of Government becomes destructive ..." it must be challenged.

[Mrspeeker]

172. ???How do you bring Germany into this???

Maybe if your trying to reach back into history like 60 years of course alot of what happened back then was enabled by American Corporations oh and Bush's Dad, he was a part of the American Nazi Party.

So yeah the US isn't Germany..but that sure doesn't mean what happened their can't happen here or isn't already happing for that matter!

[Deja Q]

204. If you think there's a problem, take charge and be a leader. Stop whining "they're coming to get us"

because in all likelihood, they won't.

There's a word for what some people are going through: It's called "PARANOIA".

:shrug:

[niyad]

46. you might try reading the new mccarthy watch at progressive-- and tell me then

that we are not sliding rapidly into that state, free speech zones, anyone? the halliburton detention centers that are being built? bush's little bubble zones of "loyalty oath" audiences? fbi visiting people because of peace posters? wake up and smell the stench of a rapidly expanding police state.

[John Q. Citizen]

66. You never studied Mexican modern history from the 1930's to present, I see.

[ProudDad]

92. Do you feel the water getting a little warmer yet?

This is the post-modern police state.

They're oh, so genteel.

They don't run around in jackboots any more. They're much too smart for that...

They just buy up ALL the media and pump out soothing pap interleaved with their fear mongering shit...

They just pass so many laws against anything "disorderly" that they can chill anyone they feel like...

They just fill the streets and towns and cities with their armed paramilitaries whose NUMBER ONE JOB is to "keep order" -- to make sure you aren't untidy enough to effectively question or worse, defy authority.

They give you just enough crumbs of "freedom" to make you think you're actually "free"...

However, if DU were really effective, If DU were really making any change in the basic system that rules this country (and the world), it would be shut down so fucking fast it'd snap your freakin' fingers off at the keyboard.

Hell, the majority of folks I read on DU buy into the Corpo bullshit and are in such heavy denial that their corporate capitalist masters who own the Police State have nothing to worry about.

If this is the best the "left liberals" can do...well...

[fujiyama]

99. True, it's important to keep things in perspective

but "the shining beacon on the hill", this country is not.

The hope, the inspiration, and the mass appeal of this country no longer exists - either internally among many of its citizens, or the rest of the world.

We may not be a "police state" in the same way as Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or various Soviet block countries, but the direction our country is taking is leading us to our own unique American police state. The authoritarian atmosphere this administration has created has allowed many cops to administer actions without accountability. The same exists for all levels of government. The above examples are just a sample. I can only imagine how many are NOT reported due to fear of retaliation from the police.

At this point, what separates us and what you might consider "real police states" is scale.

At this point, our country does the following (aside from the cases of police abuse listed above):

Our government can detain anyone, including citizens indefinitely without charges.

Our government tortures.

Our government hires mercenaries to kill (and those people are there to kill because they get off on it), which have no accountability to military codes of conduct, US, or international law.

Our government spies on anyone including citizens with no warrants.

No, we are not Nazi Germany. We are not Soviet Russia. We are not Burma. But we are not the same country we once were. We are a new deranged beast.

As a powerful nation that preaches freedom abroad, we have completely lost any moral high ground. After all, when we look at issues like number of execution - who is with us? But Iran and China. Great company.

[GrannyK]

121. Were Waco and

Ruby Ridge just test cases to experiment on how much the American people would allow?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

166. What a Life of Privilege You Must Have Had

God...you are a pawn and you don't even know it.

[MADem]

178. I lived in a police state, and you are correct.

Iran under Shah was quite the place. Imagine a tank on every corner anytime ANYONE got a bit uppity. Curfews from dusk until dawn whenever there was too much unrest--the poor wild dog who darted through the shadows got shot, and that dog could just as easily have been a human. If it moved, they'd shoot it when curfew was in effect.

Imagine having to discuss the latest happenings in government in whispers, outside with the wind blowing, and using code words, and pretending that you were talking about an annoying relative or a naughty baby instead of the ruler of the country..."Oh, the baby has a bad cold...no, it's worse than a cold, we hope it isn't cancer, the baby is looking very ill lately...I saw the baby at an event a month ago, he's lost so much weight..."

It IS important for people in America to continue to challenge abuse, but this is not a country, yet, where one's neighbors are there one day and gone the next routinely, or where you EXPECTED your house to be searched if you had "foreign" visitors over for a meal or a chat (and they wouldn't even put shit back properly after they'd rifled your stuff), or you EXPECTED your phone to be tapped (if you were lucky enough to have such a thing!!) because, well, that's just what they did. And your safety and security, and ability to get out of any legal problem, were very much dependent on knowing someone who was "close to the throne" or at least some bastard within the governmental system of the monarchy, who might, or might not, want a little cash for his trouble.

This place isn't even CLOSE. But hey, hyperbole is fun for some. Drama is absolute manna to others.

I hope they never have to deal with the reality, because it really AIN'T fun at all.

[Deja Q]

208. And the more paranoid people think paranoia is immutable reality, the more likely we MIGHT become

a police state.

I don't want, Heaven help me, these paranoid jerks fucking it for the rest of us. I don't want the resultant disease, thanks anyway.

[Deja Q]

203. *DING* *DING* *DING* *DING* *DING* We have a winner!!

I read some of the stories.

Some causes were unjustified.

Others were.

I recall some other posts on DU, including one with a youtube reference video -- and having looked at the youtube video, it was obvious the people (youtube, not DU) who posted that video had edited it before uploading. Never mind it was obvious the teenage brats were trolling the police for a reaction. It was also amazing how many people couldn't see where the cuts were made (never mind their trolling) and automatically damned the police at every single opportunity, without so much as a second thought. Possibly without a first thought either. Again, both as youtube comments and on DU.

It's baseless shit like that which not only compels people to leave DU, but it gives people on "the other side" real ammo to use.

Sometimes there is more than one perspective, and sometimes it's worth figuring out more than the ones we're used to.

[Gregorian]

15. Sorry. I had to post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDwEnFhMVOU

But seriously, we've been ratching up since the drug war. It's bad.

[onenote]

17. Yes, and in the good old days, the police never, ever abused their powers

They spent all of their time catching bad guys (by slugging them in the chin and knocking them out) and helping little old ladies cross the street. Particularly in the deep south, where the police were the ideal of perfection.

Get a grip, willya?

[Cetacea]

24. It's much worse now. And not confined to the south and blacks.

This pattern is happening everywhere and at increased frequency.

[lurky]

19. Fuck this country?

No thanks. This country has been fucked quite enough lately. How about stop fucking my country?

[MLFerrell]

22. "How about stop fucking my country?"

Fair Enough!

:)

[Boudica the Lyoness]

31. Well said, BUT

it's not going to improve. We tried to do our bit. We spent all our money on politics. My husbands was asked to run for congress by the Democrat party..big rat hole. It's a total waste of time in a red district. We really tried but the brain washing has gone on for so long. I see it here on DU and I know it's a lost cause.
When driving late at night you should not expect to be pulled over and questioned about where you are going. It's happened to us a few times and we are, for the record white. Once we were leaving our own business and were 'busted' by the cops. We are in our 50's and in a fucking minivan. He said he was making note of our names in case there was any crime reported there (in our building) he'd know who was there. It didn't matter we owned the place. It's about power. Take the cocksuckers guns away from them and then see how many want to be cops!
This country is so used to bully cops, going without decent health care etc it will never change. For some reason people don't know how to do the right thing.
The water is getting warmer little froggies...I think I'll hop on to this lilly pad. Sorry, I'm all worn out just lately.

[bdamomma]

82. yea, not only fucking the country ,raping it and abusing it too.

ENOUGH.

[Zywiec]

25. Does DU have a hyperbole patrol???

:shrug:

[backscatter712]

53. This is hyperbole how?

[Richardo]

136. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

SPend some time in North Korea and get back to me on that one.

[Spazito]

171. So, unless the US is the exact replica of North Korea no one

should be concerned? The Patriot Act is not of concern? The no-fly lists are of no concern? The "free speech zones" are of no concern? The illegal wiretapping is of no concern? Is there anything currently happening in your country that DOES concern you regarding the reduction of your freedom, the decimation of your Constitution, the government ignoring the Bill of Rights?

[Richardo]

175. I don't think in a real police state you'd be posting this material on a public website.

Nice strawman argument.

[Spazito]

220. Actually, in a real police state you might well be posting, everything is

monitored not stopped at first, only later. It is fascinating that you obviously don't have a concern about the loss of your rights and those of others, of being spied on by your own government, etc. You might wonder why your tourism is WAY down, could it be citizens of other countries don't feel they are safe, free and would have their basic civil rights in the US anymore? It seems so.

People around the world know about the Mahar Arar travesty and know that freedom and civil rights no are no longer guaranteed in the US.

[UncleSepp]

245. So we're all with you or against you?

It is quite possible to be concerned about all of those things, even outraged, without concluding that we live in the present moment in a police state. It is possible to not agree that we currently live in a police state while still maintaining that our current state shares some characteristics and tendencies with a police state. Things are not always A or Z, black or white, with all correct options on one side of a line and all wrong options on another.

Personally, I think that kind of black and white, only-two-options thinking is exactly what's getting us further and further into this mess. It's certainly a characteristic of the neocons. I don't want to see it become a characteristic of liberals as well.

[Odin2005]

69. Yes, me.

O8)

[Deja Q]

213. It's got patrols for every other denominator of human nature, why not that one too?

[Vilis Veritas]

27. Check this out.

http://tribes.tribe.net/redemption101/thread/f6094919-fe1b-4e79-9277-5aa094090322

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/index.php/t-18933.html

I did some research after reading a comment in one of the articles...about how we need to fix our birth certificate...not sure if it is true, but I will research more...and post later...

Probably nothing...or?

No Fear.

[Danger Mouse]

30. That story about the girl dropping the cake is horrible.

It does seem that police abuse is becoming worse lately. We don't live in a police state, though. Not yet.

[HeraldSquare212]

34. The new normal?

I do believe it is signficantly worse than it ever was - surveillance is constant and expanding and everything is handled with overwhelming force on the assumption that it is a terrorist threat.

In some respects, this is because that is where the funding for training is coming from - DHS. If the money were coming from HUD for training on assisting the homeless, then police actions in other situations would have a whole different tone.

[Deja Q]

209. Hardly. Freaks like Jerry Springer and Maury have taken advantage of this stuff for years.

They help perpetuate it as well. Not always tazering people, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're back on next season with his big fat bald nit-witted guards tazering the wild ding-dongs on state, to the response of a warmly applauding audience...

[Rainbowreflect]

35. Some days it is just too much to deal with.

:cry:

[Megahurtz]

36. You Can Also Add On

a case where a 19 year old girl in Southern California was shot by 2 Policemen 25 times, several rounds in the back and killed.

Their excuse? They approached her 25 feet away, she turned around and because she was holding a Buck-knife they shot her. 2 big Thug Cops shot and killed a very petite 19 year old who was upset because she had been raped the night before.

I've been talking to her Mother who I'm sure will never be the same :crazy: because of it.
It also has affected me. :cry::crazy:

And don't forget the Rent-A-Cop Thug types, and Bouncers/Security Guards etc.
They seem to get a free ticket to abuse people too.

This Country is gone and I would love to move to a different one.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

40. British cops

British police seem to be gifted with some kind of super power and they can control a situation involving a teenage girl with a knife without resorting to shooting her! American cops are ignorant pussies who are the judge jury and executioner.

[Megahurtz]

60. I Totally Agree!

It is a joke here!

The Police here were trying to argue that she was holding a knife, she was dangerous!
2 big 6 foot Thugs yet! WHIMPS!:argh:

They are the ones who are a danger to the Public. I do not feel safe here anymore!

The Mother is suing the Police Dept. for Millions.
I hope she wins by a landslide!

[Flatulo]

174. Aren't the Brittish police armed these days?

And, no offense meant toward your native country, but I believe London is now the most heavily surveiled city in the world.

It's happening everywhere.

[Disturbed]

43. Video & video phones are a good thing.

Is there more Police brutality than ever before or are more incidents being reported & filmed?

No Habeous Corpus & "No knock law", along with new rules of the so called Patriot Act are dangerous. America could easily turn into a RWing Fascist Police State but maybe if a Dem Admin. is voted in that can be avoided. Maybe not.

[Megahurtz]

63. The Only Actual Witness

to what they did is now, strangely enough, in Prison!:wow:
I do not know what they supposedly put him in there for (I could imagine to threaten him)
but I am going to find out more. Maybe even visit him if he's close by.

I bet the Cops had some kind of video from their car but I would imagine that probably disappeared.

I do think that there is actually more Police brutality now than there ever was. Good thing we have picture taking abilities on our cell phones. It's definitely best to be prepared.

[siri2k]

44. K&R. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

48. 2nd largest group abusing steroids after athletes

Cops and other law enforcement personnel.

No one wants to admit it, or do anything about it.
It is a growing problem, and if I was involved in a legal fight with the cops for any reason involving the use of force, I would ask my lawyer to demand a test for any and all illegal or controlled substances that the police officer may have in his system.

Know a few cops in my gym, an FBI agent that used to be a cop.

They say things.

[Pastiche423]

54. K&R

[XanaDUer]

225. That's a great picture.

n/t.

[Pastiche423]

231. I think so too

I "borrowed" it from a Mother Jones article.

[XanaDUer]

232. I remember that now!

I subscribe to MJ mag.

Thanks for posting it here. :hi:

[Pastiche423]

233. You're welcome!

I fell in love w/it and its message the moment I saw it.

[tigereye]

55. it's interesting that many of these events involved either people with mental

illnesses or perceived "unruliness." And the presence of the police or security guards who may not know how to calm people down rather than using extreme force, is very disturbing.


however, I don't think that these events characterize a police state per se, but more of a lack of calmness, compassion and better planning to de-escalate problem situations.

[MLFerrell]

57. After having read the many replies to this thread, I have a few things to say...

Perhaps I chose my title poorly. A more accurate reflection of my sentiment would be, "We as a culture are being steadily indoctrinated with the concept that police, and by extension the state, are above the law."

Another aspect of this change is the accompanying process of acculturation to the extreme violence that often results when police officers are not immediately obeyed to their satisfaction, regardless of the legality (or lack thereof) of their demands.

"however, I don't think that these events characterize a police state per se..."

I concur, but I submit that the climate of fear and subservience to police that is being fostered reflects a concerted effort to convince the public that brutal violence is always acceptable when perpetrated "in the name of the law".

And that's the crux of the matter: It is the law of a state which truly characterizes it as a "police state". Do our laws currently meet that standard? Not entirely, no. Some do, arguably a great many, but in totality, they do not constitute an authoritarian regime like the ruling junta of Burma or the government of the former Soviet Union.

Nevertheless, the law is as malleable as aluminum foil. If (when?) more repressive laws are instituted, the culture of total submissiveness to "officers of the law" necessary for the implementation of those new repressive measures will be firmly entrenched in the American collective identity.

So, ultimately, is this a Police State? No, not quite yet. But we're too close for my comfort...

[Marrah_G]

59. Now that I can agree with

It's important to keep vigilant to make sure we do not devolve into one.

[ProudDad]

93. Depends on how many times you've been on the receiving end

of these "officers of the law"...

Get fucked over by them and this brainwashed society will blame YOU...

Oh, we're there.

It's just a matter of time before everyone notices or gets to be on the receiving end of their tender mercies...

and then it will be too late...

To paraphrase:

First they came for the "Communists", and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the "drug dealers", and I did not speak out -
because I was not a "drug dealer".

Then they came for the "drug addicts", and I did not speak out -
because I was not a "drug addict".

Then they came for the Noisy Lady in the Airport, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a noisy lady in the airport.

Then they came for Code Pink, and I did not speak out -
because I was not in Code Pink.

Then they came for the demonstrators, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Demonstrator.

Then they came for the Athiests, and I did not speak out -
because I was not an Atheist.

Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

[MLFerrell]

97. A worthy adaptation of Pastor Niemoller's pronouncement.

Fuck a 5-0. By and large, they are my enemy. And that is a terrible reality to contemplate...

Welcome to the United States of Torture. Through the looking glass, as they say...

[tigereye]

122. I think it's the lack of respect for police and authority overall -

different than perhaps in the past, plus an increase in a tendency to violence, that results in an over-reaction by the police or security officers, and may cause them to exert more extreme forms of authority such as tasers, as opposed to negotiation. Also the pressure of media on them to rapidly "produce" some reaction or resolution or other.

In our culture, it seems as if we are always callling in authority, rather than trying to resollve conflcts among ourselves.

[ThomCat]

158. Do you really think the problem is that

people just woke up one day and decided not to respect the police? :wtf:

You don't think that the police have been getting exactly the amount of respect they earn?

I think you have it entirely ass backwards.

[tigereye]

197. I live in a large city and it does seem that there are more folks shooting

at the police, trying to run them over, killing them at traffic stops. I work a lot with kids and teens who have no respect for themselves and are not taught any respect for authority figures, period. I think the preponderance of a lack of civility and self-control in individuals produces escalations of violence for individuals and for the police as well.

I'm not saying the police are never wrong. I'm not saying people aren't hurt by them. Probably a lot of people who become police officers may not have the most complex views of societ -many may be racist or intolerant. But plenty of them are good people who put their lives on the line all the time trying to keep others safe and enforcing the laws that are on the books, and I don't think it's fair to stereotype all of them as part of some fascist system.

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

201. no need to be insulting just cuz I have a different viewpoint -

I haven't taken anything resembling a drug in years.

I have a lot of theories about why people are mad, period. It's kind of an occupational hazard.

In my work I spend a lot of time teaching unruly teens with no insight to control themselves and think about their actions, and I think a lack of control and self-awareness leads to a lot of these incidents. Not always, mind you. Sometimes the police might have the same issues.

I think people have a reason to be mad at cops, but does that change the problem in the interactions?

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudDad]

237. I would urge you to ask the next questions

"Why are those kids 'unruly'?"

"What are the conditions under which they and their caregivers live?"

"Who benefits from those conditions and are the only ones who could change them if they desired?"

Wow, those who benefit from the system are those for whom the cops are working and the ones whose protection from those "others" is the cops' Prime Directive.

Good example of Catch-22 for those kids...

"Why should anyone "respect" the agents of one's own oppression?"

[fightthegoodfightnow]

241. Would you delete my message if I ask why?

You write: 'I think people have a reason to be mad at cops, but does that change the problem in the interactions?"

Why?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

227. It's About Power

........and in case you haven't heard, the state has more of it than the people.

[sandyd921]

194. You are kidding, right?

We are living in a time in which the executive branch of government has assumed unprecedented amounts of power and has used the supposed threat of terror to impose greater and greater control over many aspects of daily life (all you need do is take a trip to the closest airport to observe this). There has been, undeniably, a spin-off of this to the approach that civil authorities at the local level are taking. At the same time, we have the extreme right wing lunatic element with their racist, misogynist hate-filled drivel broadcast over mainstream media influencing and providing an excuse for police brutality. And your analysis is that the problem is "lack of respect for police and authority overall"?????????

:yoiks: :wow: :shrug:

[tigereye]

196. sorry, that's just how it seems sometimes...

I'm not saying that their isn't police brutality. I think people up the ante all the time and attack the police at times in ways that were not typical in the past, and the police tend to over-react and be more fearful and angry. It's almost an escalation of anger and violence on both sides.

Many people don't respect authority because they have lost their trust in it. When I was a kid, people trusted authority figures like the police and there were fewer conflicts overall. Current American society tends to litigate every event - sometimes this is necessary - but it's almost like the social contract that used to govern bureaucratic interactions has ceased to exist.

I agree that the idea of the unitary executive and the over-reaction to the "terrorist threat" has produced extremes in airports (although not like Israel, from what I understand), such as everyone having to take off their shoes because of one aborted incident. Bush tries to take power in many ways, and local authorities are encouraged to look constantly for "threats" - the over-reaction of thinking that every anomaly is a terrorist threat like the young woman who had a primitive circuit board on her shirt is an example of this. People have become paranoid.

But I guess I don't agree that local police are more brutal for that particular "trickle down" reason, but more because of the increase of threats to them and their being first responders in more dangerous situations than in the past, and in situations where their presence exacerbates situations that could have been resolved more informally.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

202. no, I'm not blaming the victims...

but sometimes some people have no personal controls and do try to hurt or harm officers, too. That doesn't excuse brutality for either side. Police often have to maintain personal controls in the face of folks who are intoxicated or belligerent, too. Maybe we all should ride with the police sometime to see the other side of it.


There's no need to use ad hominems. It's an ineffective way to argue with someone. If you can't be civil, I'm pretty much done with this discussion.

[ThomCat]

222. You absolutely are blaming the victims.

x(

[fightthegoodfightnow]

229. Good Grief

You've got to be kidding me.

You write: ' sometimes some people have no personal controls'...........you mean like the police who harm citizens?

You write: 'Maybe we all should ride with the police sometime to see the other side of it."

Hummm......I thought there was only one side and that is the law. The very fact that you think there are two sides suggests that the police are not acting as agents of the people.

Please don't accuse me of being uncivil like you have others.........which seems to be your mantra anytime anyone disagrees with you.

[tigereye]

234. make an argument instead of an attack and there isn't a problem -

the police may lack personal controls, too, which is more of a problem than individuals. I didn't say the police were always right, they aren't.


But I think there is a lack of control and civility in our society overall at times, and those tend to contribute to these problems.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

239. I made an argument.

You didn't read it.

You reduce the enormous power of the state to nothing more than the possibility that 'the police may lack personal control' as if they were nothing more than an annoying jock itch in the body politic.

And for that........I say ............give me a break.

[ProudDad]

236. WOW, what a bizarre exercise in

blaming the victims. Maybe that isn't really what you meant? :shrug:

"I think it's the lack of respect for police and authority overall"

And, historically inaccurate... especially when today is contrasted with the 1960s...

The cops are unfettered, over-armed, over seasoned with paramilitary testosterone and gifted with a plethora of bullshit laws, regulations and procedures to stifle any attempts to change the status-quo...

They and their owners and handlers have "EARNED" whatever lack of respect they get.


"In our culture, it seems as if we are always calling in authority, rather than trying to resolve conflicts among ourselves" <-- this is VERY true. It's much worse now than when I was younger...

[UncleSepp]

246. Yes. That makes much more sense.

We're living in an increasingly authoritarian society. It is not only police officers who must be obeyed, but teachers, principals, pastors, any authority figure at all, even the authority of the always amorphous Most People. Those who rebel or resist are derided as "precious snowflakes" and "attention whores". It's not the state that's doing it. Half the people got exactly the government they wanted, and out of those who don't like this government, there are plenty more who still think in authoritarian patterns.

[lonestarnot]

64. c students.

[MLFerrell]

65. Huh?

[Megahurtz]

71. Wha?

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

211. Maybe if you mean D or F...

[truedelphi]

164. The mentally ill, or those who *act* mentally ill

Are the new N*rs.

In 1969, I remember my shock at the age of eighteen, driving by accident through an area near the Univ of CHicago and seeing a white cop pounding on a little black kid.

I doubt that you would see that now.

What is replacing the idea that those of color are subhuman (and thus desrving of brutality) is the notion that those who do not "act right" are subhuman.

This means that neither you or I are safe. Should my asthma flair up on a crowded jet, I "act" unruly (As I suffocate, my body needs me to rise to my feet and seek elsewhere where theere may be more oxygen.

Should your diabetes flair, you too may be judged to not be "acting" right.

[tigereye]

198. that's what I was thinking

it's almost an inability to have compassion or understanding for differences, despite all the laws that hope to produce it. It's very odd, and sad.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

242. Right...........because the police are so well known for their

.....'compassion' and 'understanding differences.'

Where exactly do you live?

Denial, USA

Oh.....nevermind........

[Deja Q]

212. You're suggesting the police can't tell if the person is pretending to be ill, just to take

advantage of the situation? (That's why cops aren't going to think about every nuance, and I can't blame them; it's an unsafe situation they're in and they are responsible for the decisions they make. Especially if they are wrong and the actor-in-training seizes the advantage and does something truly nasty.)

If you're an asthmatic, as I am, having the inhaler might come in handy in case of an acute attack. We're not subhuman because we have asthma...

Given the delays I keep hearing about, particularly planes grounded for hours with the A/C turned off so the people inside can bake, I wouldn't get on a plane ever again. The mismanagement is overwhelmingly icky.

[truedelphi]

235. I am not suggesting anything, but for the record I will state

That some of these goons do not deserve to be wearing the Blue.

There was a local San Francisco man (Redwood City, maybe?) and when his diabetes flared up, the cops pinned him to the ground and hauled him off to be cited and arrested.

Now I do not want to imply that Police Officers should not protect themselves first. But why in the world ONCE the "perp" is pinned to the ground, and safely subdued, can't they take the ten seconds to check someone's wrist area for a chain to see if there is a possibility of medical problem? (In this case, there was the Medi alert band on the man's wrist.) That should be standard operating procedure.

And it really is an omission of the training that police receive. When I read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell, he talks about how much physical stress that the police undergo as their body's physical responses take over during an incident. The blood pressure is elevated, the pupils dilate, the heart is racing, and all the instinctual rhythms of the body are screaming to the individual in uniform (At least on the instinctual level) "Kill or be killed!" That is why the manner in which police are trained is so imperative.

Just as the trained lifeguard knows enough not to respond angrily to the drowning victim when the victim starts to punch him out, so can the police be trained as well.

[lonestarnot]

223. Scarey assed position to be in isn't it?

[Deja Q]

210. Are the 'miscreants' deliberately out of control, or did somebody light their proverbial fuse?

There is a difference in terms of the type of provocation.

Nor do guards always have the time to stand there and decipher "Hmmm, is this person a legitimate maniac or an emotionally or mentally crippled person who just needs help." Given the number of real thugs out there, the police just don't have the time to think. Just thinking half that quote I'd typed out could have them incapacitated or murdered by a killer.

Besides, police aren't paid to think like that. They're not social workers. They are there to quell possibly dangerous disruptions, regardless of provocation, because it's unless they know the venue on which they are entering, they are going to assume it's another willfully violent person out to kill, rather than somebody with "special needs".

What I've said is clearly a generalization, particularly with the girl who was tazered over that cake. But I wasn't there that day, and all media sources (right, left, in between) don't always tell every nuance of the story. Because they didn't see it all, prefer one aspect over another, time constraints, or other reason. Therefore I would be inclined to take the news with a grain, if not bucket full, of salt.

And unlike a policeman at most given situations, I have the time to think out most, if not all of these possibilities.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

230. Notice How Once Again You Blame the Victim

Couldn't possibly be because the police acted improperly.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

240. Right.......

..........because the police are known for 'calmness and compassion'

[slackmaster]

74. Does an apparent proliferation of reports and videos necessarily reflect a change?

There is nothing new about incidents of police brutality.

[ProudDad]

94. As one who's been around

and been aware and has been the occasional target of police injustice and harassment since pre-nixon days...

It's never been worse than right now...

The cops and the criminal-injustice system are NOT accountable to anyone for anything and there are so many laws against nearly every conceivable activity that they are never at a loss for some excuse to roust you...

The secret police (FBI/CIA) are unfettered by any reasonable constraint.

Totally fucked up and getting worse...

[bos1]

112. true. could mean more people with cameras!

which means -- it's been this bad for a long time.

[Pavulon]

75. 299million, 999thousands minus your incidents

would be the people actually oppressed by the police state. And of course you are not oppressed for your pots etc..

I enjoy our freedom to speak, you should too.

[Dave From Canada]

80. The hyperbole meter is off the charts right now, oh, wait, it just blew up : (

[ProudDad]

95. Hyperbole?

"A hyperbole is a type of figurative language. It is often confused with a simile or a metaphor because it often compares two objects. The difference is a hyperbole is an exaggeration. For example: His feet were as big as a barge. It looks like a simile. It is comparing foot size to the size of a barge. Everyone knows that a barge is approximately 700 feet long. Imagine getting a pair of shoes that big!"

If anything, that USAmerika is a Police State is an understatement of the facts...

[MrScorpio]

85. I've been harrassed by the police since the first day I've walked out of my house

I'm black. It's nothing new to me.

The police however have changed, they've become even bigger assholes than ever before

[MLFerrell]

90. "I'm black. It's nothing new to me."

My most sincere apologies. American society has a LONG way to go with respect to racial issues.

I have two very good friends who are black. And several times, when the two to whom I refer and I have gone out on the town, cops have found it necessary to fuck with us.

Does that happen when I'm out with my white friends? Hardly ever.

And THAT is fucked up. Seriously fucked up. It's almost as every pig in the U.S. presumes that African Americans are predisposed to criminality.

FUCK THAT.

I will NEVER respect police officers until they perform their necessary duties properly, free of prejudice, malice, and their horrid desire to impose their will upon any and all that defy them in the slightest.

Is it all cops who exemplify these traits? No. But it's enough of them. And it seems to me that there are more of that bent every day...

[MrScorpio]

91. It's always been a toss up when I'm dealing with cops

I never know when I'm going to deal with officer friendly or an asshole with a badge and a gun.

I try my best to avoid them all.

[MLFerrell]

96. "I try my best to avoid them all."

And that's the REAL point, now isn't it?

What a crying fucking shame that those with more melanin are singled out.

Police State or no, FUCK THIS COUNTRY.

Again, I apologize for the ignorance and intolerance that is characteristic of life as a dark-skinned American. African, dark Indian / Hindu, Caribbean extraction, the racist fucks in this "country" consider everyone who doesn't resemble them physically as inferior. And too many of those fucks are pigs.

Abner Louima?


Rodney King?


Vijay Singh, when he first entered the world of Golf?


I could name innumerable more victims of the State, in service of the overt presentation of "culture".

Fuck it, I'm goimg to drink excessively and forget that the world is a terrrible, terrible place.


FUCK THIS COUNTRY. Especially if your skin is too dark for Whitey...

Perhaps one day, "society" will come to its senses, but I won't be holding my breath.

[file83]

98. You know, some people just don't see the incrementalism as clearly as you do.

I see it all around us, every fucking day. It's a slow conditioning process being indirectly funded by the TONS tax dollars being poured into "Law Enforcement."

Really, in the 1950's we saw a similar mutation as the "Military Industrial Complex" - but that's crossing over into civilian life now.

I call this new phenomena the "Law Enforcement Industrial Complex". Taser is perfect example of this. Not to mention the trade shows and conventions revolving around "beefing up" the Police Departments into what are becoming more and more difficult to distinguish from organizations like Blackwater and/or the US Special Forces.

In the end, anywhere you see tax dollars funding a public service, you'll see Corporate America reshaping that service into a money siphon. It makes the corporations richer, the people working in those departments get bigger budgets, bigger paychecks, more expensive "toys" to play with, and most importantly, more POWER.

It makes everyone involved feel "important".

However, just like you see with our military being used in conflicts all over the world, the money must be "justified". So it is with these "Law Enforcement" dollars. Police Chiefs are getting kick-backs from companies like Taser for "encouraging" their officers to use the things whenever possible. The more Taser recharge cartridges that get sold, the better. And so on with all the other gear that gets peddled.

Let's not even get into forest fire fighting... the amounts of money wasted in those "Incident Command" camps is staggering.

Did I mention the Prison Industrial Complex? I could go on forever...

[tom_paine]

105. I firmly believe at least 50% of people are INCAPABLE of seeing incrementalism

and that if they do and the incremental changes are unpleasant, then denial kicks in to finsih puting down those unruly and unpleasant thoughts.

If this was not true, why does the same shit keep happening again and again and again, with only the snake skin tyranny wears changing to fit the age and people it is attacking?

Caesar, Mussolin, Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Marcos, Bush...the list is depressingly long and repetitve, for they are all similar personalities.

[AX10]

149. You are correct. I know that we are in the minority.

[Richardo]

103. ..

[piesRsquare]

115. Hee hee!

Mathematics and English teacher here...

Perfectly "stated" post! :)

[Richardo]

134. ..

Thanks. ;-)

I think I'm putting that one in photobucket for future use. I'm sure around here I'll never run out of chances to use it.

[liberal hypnotist]

107. Police are motivated and influenced by TV

Many police officers watch TV and get an initial concept of the inherent power the position offers. They learn that lying is important in being a cop. Cover ups are important. Then there is technology like temporary electrocution to stop a hostile situation.

Many people become police to compensate for image problems. But, if we as citizens do not pay attention and speak and act up, we will default to an atmosphere that can easily breed a police state. Some one like Bush is a typical candidate for being a Power Ranger if he were not super wealthy.

There are many great and dedicated police persons. The sick ones float to the top and overshadow the good ones.

Great to speak out and watch but be ready to act.

[Deja Q]

215. Who the hell isn't influenced by the media? The rapists, murderers and stuntmen wannabes?!

Like those movies featuring characters doing stupid things, and then reports of Joe Nitwit down the corner who tried to do the same thing and died.

Or the loopy nutter who saw "The Matrix", thought it was real life, got some guns, and started killing people he thought were "Agents". (Good fuckin' grief, and I don't often swear...)

:(

[bos1]

109. when I saw DUers support the tasering, I came to agree with you on the Police State thing.

Take a look at this angle of the tasering incident. The guy is so definitely doing nothing wrong but excitedly engaging in free speech and democracy. He even does the right thing as they try to push him around -- puts his hands up, shows he is not a threat, stands his ground.

Yet the crowd APPLAUDS the abuse he receives, as did many DUers. We can assume most neocons and repubs did too.

[Perry Logan]

113. Call me when they start gunning down protesters.

[backscatter712]

133. Just wait a bit...

That'll start happening when the .gov hires Blackwater to do crowd control at war protests...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

153. But I can't retro-call you in 1970

:shrug:

[Oldenuff]

120. Freedom in the US is

slip sliding away.Fear of Terrorism and the never ending Iraq war deflects attention from what is really going on.

I've already bailed.

[Pooka Fey]

127. K&R

[Richard Steele]

128. K&R

[Le Taz Hot]

129. OP Delete.

WAAAY too early for me to be responding to posts.

[MLFerrell]

130. Did I inadvertently offend you somehow?

:)

[Le Taz Hot]

141. No.

*I* deleted my own. I TOLD you I shouldn't be posting this early. :hangover:

[kskiska]

131. Go rent "The Lives of Others" (Das Leben der Anderen) - great movie

Won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film in 2006. It's about the Stasi conducting extensive surveillance operations against East German citizens suspected of opposing the Communist regime.

Hits close to home. I just saw it the other day.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MLFerrell]

135. Well, that certainly is a mature, nuanced, well though out response.

:eyes:

[Black Adder]

139. You can still live the American dream

in Canada...

[Deja Q]

217. See post #216.

:evilgrin:

Or google some news articles; some claim the American dream can be had in China for less...

[Warren Stupidity]

140. To all of you still in total denial:

US notches world's highest incarceration rate
A report highlights extent to which many citizens have served time in prison.

By Gail Russell Chaddock | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON –
More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

Please add that to your Cognitive dissonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Pull the fucking plug out and look around.

[ooglymoogly]

145. Yes we are! and it all began and was brought on by the

Phony "war on drugs" which allowed the state and police unfettered power. It was and still is the biggest boondoggle for the Pukes ever contrived, till a vastly bigger boondoggle, the phony "War on Terra" was manipulated into play. It has been a very successful treason to transfer wealth to the "right" people. Corporate Murka

[AX10]

147. Where are there a couple of stray bullets when you need some.

Worthless PIGS! :mad:

[roamer65]

151. I am seriously considering trying to get Canadian permanent residency.

That way I could leave easily and get a job in Canada.

[Deja Q]

218. See post #217, but I'll add -

make sure you read the fine-print before you go. Last time I checked, Canada typically looks after its own first, and puts foreign imports last for employment. (And people in the US complain about birthright advantages...)

[RoccoR5955]

155. DUH!

Brilliant deduction Holmes!
{sarcasm}
Don't you know that the whole damn world changed after 9/11? The police MUST have supreme authority, you don't want some terrist with a nukuler bomb set it off, do you?
{/sarcasm}

[warren pease]

156. I'd say the Military Commissions Act nailed the coffin lid down...

According to Anthony Romero, ACLU executive director:

"The president can now - with the approval of Congress - indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions."


And note this bit of joy: From the Military Commissions Act, sub-section 27 of section 950v.

"Any person subject to this chapter who with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign power, collects or attempts to collect information by clandestine means or while acting under false pretenses, for the purpose of conveying such information to an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a military commission under this chapter may direct."


The more militarized, sadistic local cops, seeing this kind of sanction for murder and mayhem against the citizenry coming from the feds, know they're not going to get in much trouble if they act out their darkest fantasies and beat, tase or murder anyone they damn well please.

Protect and serve is sooooo 20th century.

wp

[Roland99]

157. How about getting pulled over and cite for 71mph when your cruise was set on 61mph??

Happened to me yesterday, in the dark morning rush hour in a pack of cars. Cop singled me out despite me going 10mph slower than the guy he clocked. What recourse do I have? Pay up $200 and pray my insurance doesn't go up.

[LeftCoast]

163. Yeah. Textbook case of a police-state right there.

:eyes:

[Roland99]

190. Did I say it was? Was merely commenting on what happened to me yesterday.

:eyes:

[Cant trust em]

169. "Put your hands behind your back"

My sympathy for the 15 year old girl who got pepper sprayed by the cop isn't complete. The cop gave her many opportunities to comply without the need of force. She chose to writhe around and resist him. Ultimately the cops are going to win and you can either get in the squad car willingly or by the cop's will.

Granted, she probably got pulled over because of some bullshit racial profiling but this isn't the way to protest that. If you want to make a stand here by screaming "I didn't do anything" you're probably put yourself in a position to get your ass beat.

[davekriss]

173. My opinion is we live in a repressive state that...

...falls short of "police state". A friendly centrist debator on Urban75 made the point to me, back in 2003, as follows:

"This is not a police state. I have many close friends who have emigrated from such countries, and to compare our recent erosion of civil liberties with theirs, even if only slightly, mocks their struggle."

This is a very good point and did shock me off my hyperbole -- to compare the U.S. to a "police state" is to mock genuine struggles in violently repressive states. I humbly conceded the point.

But this person was speaking from the comfort of a privileged graduate student life. Would he say the same if he was unemployed in the South Bronx or East St. Louis or East Los Angeles? If he were the "wrong" color, without signs of affluence, and the simple act of walking down the street invites police intimidation?

The U.S. is not a "melting pot", it's a jambalaya -- a myriad of differing cultures and peoples strewn across the strata of our socioeconomic hierarchy. Depending where one sits, what one says about "freedom" and "police state" may vary greatly.

But I conceded the point. Here's why: The tortured bodies of students and labor leaders are not being strewn in U.S. ditches. There is a yawning gap between the problems and threats to democracy here and the various terrorized populations living under monstrous regimes. To equate the two dishonors those that struggle on the front lines.

HOWEVER: Note that our government, out of public view and behind charades of lies, often aids and abets the very states that torture, kill, and terrorize their citizenry. I am not certain that, if citizens threatened state power here, that this violence wouldn't be turned on us too.

Especially given that Bush has dropped the pretense of proxy and now directly intimidates the citizenry of other countries by imprisoning without charge or recourse to a judiciary and openly torturing them (anyone who believes we torture to surface actionable intelligence is plainly naive -- we torture to intimidate and terrorize).

Easier to lose ourselves nightly in the soothing blue glow of the cathode ray tube, popping those choco rations, ignoring that gnawing moral itch that whispers, in the still of night, that things are not right, things are not what they ought to be...

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to William Stephens Smith, 1787

[warren pease]

179. Agreed, although all the mechanisms are in place...

They just haven't been activated yet. And by that I mean a pattern of repressive legislation going all the way back to the first patriot act, the military commissions act, the death of habeas in the 2006 federal budget authorization bill, and including the current FISA/domestic surveillance program that the democrats vow to "fix" -- and when this pack of democrats "fixes" something, I think of the word as it's used to describe neutering pets rather than repairing anything.

But the real nasty stuff is in the executive orders and presidential directives, which are enacted with a stroke of Bushie's pen and not subject to congressional override. These include NSPD 51/HSPD-20, signed May 9, 07, which provide the framework and excuses for implementing martial law. Note that Bush is to be the sole guarantor of the continuance of Constitutional law under these conditions, and that he’s the only one who gets to define what constitutes grounds for declaring a state of emergency.

And this one, which essentially outlaws the anti-war movement by allowing the feds to confiscate all assets -- liquid or real property -- of anyone deemed to be "…undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people."

Under those terms, the entire executive branch and much of congress should be penniless and homeless, but that's unfortunately not the way it works.

So I think it's a fair argument that we're not in a de facto police state now, but the pieces are all in place just waiting for some the right excuse to implement them. Or maybe not...

Comments?

wp

[davekriss]

187. Pretty scary, isn't it

And unfortunately it's all fact. One point, though. You say, "death of habeas in the 2006 federal budget authorization bill". I feel kind of redfaced if I missed it, but I thought the elimination of habeas corpus was part of the Military Commissions Act, and it is vague on the point of its applicability to U.S. citizens. It's worse than that?

[warren pease]

193. I'm RIGHT, dammit! er, maybe not...

Sorry. You just happened to tap into my inner fascist. Turns out we're both right, but you're righter than I am. Here's a piece re the 2006 DoD Appropriations Act, which stated in Section 1005(e), “Procedures for Status Review of Detainees Outside the United States”:

“(1) Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

“(2) The jurisdiction of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit on any claims with respect to an alien under this paragraph shall be limited to the consideration of whether the status determination … was consistent with the standards and procedures specified by the Secretary of Defense for Combatant Status Review Tribunals (including the requirement that the conclusion of the Tribunal be supported by a preponderance of the evidence and allowing a rebuttable presumption in favor of the Government's evidence), and to the extent the Constitution and laws of the United States are applicable, whether the use of such standards and procedures to make the determination is consistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States.”

So the DoD budget bill killed habeas for "detainees" at Gitmo and elsewhere in the American gulag. On the same day as he signed this abomination, Bushie also signed the MCA, which killed habeas for the rest of us by first broadening the definition of "enemy combatant:"

“Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.” §1005(e)(1), 119 Stat. 2742

And then Gonzales, may he roast in the warmest corner of hell for all eternity, broadened the definition even further by asserting that while habeas corpus is "one of our most cherished rights," the United States Constitution does not expressly guarantee habeas rights to United States residents or citizens.

As such, the law could be extended to U.S. citizens if left unchecked.

One such attempted check was the Habeas Corpus Restoration Act of 2007. It was approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee with an 11-8 vote split along party lines with, naturally, all but one Republican voting against it. Although the Act would restore statutory habeas corpus to enemy combatants, it would not overturn the provisions of a Clinton era law which set a statute of limitations on habeas corpus claims from ordinary civilian federal and state prisoners.

So I guess the real answer is that habeas is kind of in limbo. If you're an alleged enemy combatant, you're screwed as far a habeas is concerned. If you're a US citizen, things are pretty murky. Personally, I think that if they care enough about an individual case, this pack of criminals will figure out a "legal" way to deny habeas to anybody. If it's a low profile case, it's up to the politics of whatever circuit court catches the case. The Ninth is considered "liberal," as is the DC circuit court. The Fourth, based in Richmond VA, is considered the most conservative.

[BornagainDUer]

181. I have had my phoned tapped, I've been surveiled and harassed.

I've been assaulted by people who attempted to frame me for criminal activity. I'm sure I'm on the "no fly" list. It is this kind of thing that convinces me we are in a police state.
When I hear somebody say "We live in the freeist country" blah, blah, I say Yea, if you don't question the powers that be you can do whatever you want.

All of the people who knew too much who have been murdered convinces me further.

[BornagainDUer]

182. The presence of so many Psy-ops types at DU and presumably every

other political website is also a indicator of a police state. State money being used to curtail free speech.

[Joanne98]

183. I say that eveyday around here!!!!!!! K&R!

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomg]

185. Reminds me of a Tom Paxton song from

1966 or 1967.

Good morning Mister Blue, we've got our eyes on you.
The evidence is clear, that you've been scheming.
You like to steal away and while away the day.
You like to spend an hour dreaming.
What will it take, to whip you into line?
A broken heart? A broken head?
It can be arranged. It can be arranged.

I don't think we are in a police state yet; however, we are far closer than I can ever remember and it seems like pretty much a straight run. For me, it isn't about cops, either individually or in groups, that are the issue. In fact, when we were in Washington last month, one of the things that struck me was just how much better the cops were than they were in the late 60s and 70s. It isn't about them shutting down DU or directly controlling the presses. Why bother? It is about a kind of creeping authoritarianism under vastly changed conditions.

We know that we have always had police who have brutalized citizens. We know that there have always been practices that our law enforcement agencies have condoned that were, in a word, immoral. And in the past we were ashamed of them. We didn't talk about them. I keep thinking about that character Nicholson played in A Few Good Men who said, in essence, you don't want to know. Well, in the past we did and we moved forward. These were things that happened and we were ashamed of them and slowly we were going forward.

Now, though, it seems as though renditioning, the use of torture, the suspension of habeus corpus, the nullifaction of the Posse Comitatus Act, the use of Blackwater mercenaries in Katrina and Order 17 regarding Iraq, massive surveillance of citizens - these are all of the things of which we should be ashamed, and this government and the corporatists are actually proud of it. Actions that were once impeachable offenses - Watergate anyone - are now business as usual. In the past we moved painfully forward. Now we move rapidly back. And much of what we are seeing on the streets is not only the filtering down of that authoritarianism but its acceptance/ encouragement as seen in court decisions.

Police state? Getting very close but not there quite yet. Fascist corporatist state. Absolutely. Incidentally, a very close friend of mine - a woman about 5'1" in her late 60s - recently got pretty badly knocked around by local cops when she didn't pull over for a broken tail light. Arrested for "resisting arrest" and sort of punched out in the process, her eyes are still black and blue. I had heard about this a couple of days ago and details were murky and a little more complex - but there is nothing that justifies slamming a 5'1" unarmed 66-67 year old . I saw her this morning and when she found out we were going to be down at Union Square in New York next week, she asked if she could have a ride with us. She said she would fill us in on the details of what happened on the way down.

[KG]

186. yes.

we are.

[Thothmes]

188. Police State

The continued existence of this thread would tend to indicate that we were not. A police state will not permit dissension.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

228. Nonsense

You obviously don't know how they work.

It's a fact that some media have been manipulated by the state with illegally paid columnists supporting the state's agenda and that's just skimming the surface.

Keep living in the delusional world that we are a democracy.........all evidence to the contrary.

[Swamp Rat]

247. "A police state will not permit dissension."

Or, an old-fashioned police state will not permit dissension.

Having learned from the past, a new police state might control dissension instead of trying to directly eliminate it. This is much more cost effective and less time consuming.... and so far quite effective.

[jeff30997]

191. Well,when I see Wat's going on in you country...

I'm glad I'm a Canuck.

[Deja Q]

216. ROTFLMAO

If the "North American Union" is an eventuality, you probably won't be for much longer, in your country.

Are there any other bogeymen I can introduce you to? :evilfrown:

[SergeyDovlatov]

224. We have an america-hater!!! lol. Don't confuse country with its government n/t