Why is this Armenian genocide resolution such a big deal all of a sudden?

[MrCoffee]

Is it because this is the first time in at least 7 years that it's up for a vote? This is one of those strange issues that pops up on both sides of the aisle whenever someone's constituents start yelling loudly enough.

Hastert almost brought it to the floor for a vote in 2000, but pulled it after Bill Clinton asked him to.

http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/hye_sharzhoom/vol22/october71/genocide.htm

http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=41

[groovedaddy]

1. Probably because it reflects badly on Turkey

who would probably love to do a repeat with the Kurds in Iraq.

[MrCoffee]

3. all i see is a political anthill being kicked every so often by interested parties

what effect does Congressional recognition of a 90 year old genocide have? is Congress attempting to cover-up the genocide?

there are so many more pressing issues for people to get their undies in a bind over.

[karynnj]

29. The reason is that it has been denied

or at minimum said to be in dispute by some organization. If you were of Armenian descent or were Orthodox Catholic, you would likely be disturbed by the fact that this is still not admitted. It bothers me, as a Jew, that some Jewish organizations have taken a neutral position because Turkey is one of the few reliable friends they have in the region. It's seems hypocritical when you contrast it to the idea that the holocaust must be taught to keep it from repeating. The fact, that there has long been a contention that Hitler told people that people would not object to the slaughter of the Jews - because there was little out cry about the Armenians.

For our Congressmen, the problem is they are balancing a morally right thing to do that has no real effect on the world vs the likely geo-political impacts of doing it.

[MrCoffee]

34. ok...that's a valid reason

if the intent is to simply state the official US position that the Armenian genocide did in fact occur, that's fine. i was unaware that there was a current controversy over the fact of the genocide. i mean, i knew that Turkey has long denied that it happened, but i didn't know that there was a fresh round of debate on the topic. thanks for clarifying for me.

it's the history of the resolution that bothers me. the Repukes used this in 2000 as an electioneering tool in California, until Clinton called Hastert and had him pull the resolution off the floor.

[Bitwit1234]

2. I suppose because according to Jon Stewart last night

Armenia and one of the other Baltic countries are the only ones left (except Britain) who are the whole shebang of the coalition of the willing bush has left.

[mmonk]

4. Because on so many levels, it shows

how contacts and self enricment and coverup run American politics.

[pingzing58]

5. I have friends of Armenian descent whose parents escaped with the help of Turkish neighbors.

But so many were murdered (over 1 million) because Armenian communities are among the first Christians and the intention was to cleanse the country of Armenian Christians. To the Armenian Americans who honor their parents and grandparents struggle it is their continued wish that this holocaust be recognized. Or, is our Congress like Ahmadinejad and declare that it never happened?

[JDPriestly]

8. The Armenian genocide was a horrible crime.

[MrCoffee]

9. i still don't know why a Congressional resolution makes it more real

or how the lack of a Congressional resolution = denial

[Javaman]

6. Because Turkey is about to take care of starting a war with Iran for us.

that's why.

[Clark2008]

17. I thought that was Israel's job.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

20. Too many eyes on Israel after it violated int'l law and bombed in Syria.

Of course, it was a "surgical strike" :rofl: doncha' just love the language. Turkey just wants to do some "surgical strikes" of its own.

[Javaman]

21. Naaaa. to obvious. nt

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

7. BushCO is making a big deal out of it as a diversion from another scandal.

That would be pure speculation.

However, the Bush administration MUST have negotiated some quid pro quo to convince Turkey to reverse its denial of access to the US military. Also, supposedly, this administration was a defender of the Kurds but the issue of oil seems to have interfered with that relationship. Lastly, Sibel Edmonds keeps popping into the fore of my thoughts, for some reason.

Anyways, I speculate that BushCO is making a big deal out of the resolution to divert from its own malignant mistakes in the region.

[JuniperLea]

10. Because BushCo doesn't care about human lives...

Unless he can use them politically. He hasn't needed this until now.

[Faygo Kid]

11. Mr. Coffee has a big problem with acknowledging the genocide. This is hardly a "strange issue."

We have exchanged views here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2013638&mesg_id=2013638

[MrCoffee]

12. now i'm a genocide denier?

that's an amazing stretch.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

18. What's your opinion on why Bushco is making such a big deal out of it?

An acknowledgment of the genocide wasn't such a "big deal" until BushCO decided to make it an issue that may 'endanger the lives of our troops'. What the hell is BushCO talking about?

What's your opinion?

[MrCoffee]

23. that was Clinton's argument in 2000...endangering American lives

i think Chimpy is walking a fine line with Turkey (the northern border incursions, Kurds in norhtern Iraq) and doesn't want Congress to piss Turkey off.

This resolution is not new. It was a domestic political issue in 2000 when Repukes wanted to win House seats in California.

personally, i don't think we need a Congressional resolution acknoledging a 90 year old genocide that has no other effect than to state the obvious: genocide is bad, and people who commit genocide are bad.

i understand why Armenians would want this resolution. personally, i think the resolution is a bad move in terms of foreign policy.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

35. Why is an acknowledgment of any genocide ever bad? Let's talk Bushco rather than Clinton,...

,...because BushCO is in presently in power.

Why do you believe the resolution is bad in terms of "foreign policy"? How does such an acknowledgment impact "foreign policy"? Was the acknowledgment of Germany's genocide of Jews bad for "foreign policy"? Compare, contrast and explain.

[MrCoffee]

41. i believe its bad because it will cause massive outcry in Turkey

yes, Turkey committed genocide 90 years ago. yes, that was and is reprehensible, and Turkey should take responsibility for its history.

this resolution will not make that happen. this resolution will stir up massive US resentment in Turkey. does anyone want Turkey invading Iraq to go after the Kurds? no. will this resolution ease the way for them to do so? yes.


The acknowledgement of the Holocaust was not bad foreign policy. The acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide (which we should all agree was horrific and tragic and actually did happen) would be bad foreign policy at this time.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

55. Why would an acknowledgment stir up anything? It happened.

Do you have some evidence that the citizens of Turkey would become more resentful of us due simply to an acknowledgment of that genocide?

Hell, they resented us BEFORE the Iraq war and marched on the steps of their parliament DEMANDING Turkey not serve as a military base for the U.S. They SUCCEEDED, too!!! Then, something behind the curtains happened.

I ask, how will the mere acknowledgment of past genocide stir them any further? I don't think the Turks' resentment of us has one damn thing to do with this resolution as much as it does this effed up war.

I find the exaggerated focus on this resolution merely another switch-n-bait by BushCO. It's not the resolution that will stir up anti-American sentiment in Turkey. That's just silly.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

58. Geez. I read back through this thread and see you treating it as a "big deal".

You believe an acknowledgment of genocide is such a "big deal" that it is bad foreign policy (without providing any substantive support for your assertions) yet ask why it's such a big deal?

I am wondering where you are coming from? It appears you believe congress should just drop the resolution per BushCO's desire but never explore why BushCO wants it dropped.

Very confusing to me.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

48. Wait a minute. Who raised hell over the resolution in 2000? Were they connected to the scandal,...

,...that is still being covered-up,...the reason Sibel Edmonds is being shut down? I'm thinking this may be a bit more complex than what appears.

Moreover, could you provide some substantive back-up for your assertion that Clinton shut down a similarly proferred resolution (sorry that I tend to question representations without any evidence of their truth or veracity,...it's just the times, ya' know).

[MrCoffee]

50. here's Clinton's letter to Hastert asking him to cancel the vote

http://www.anca.org/596-hastert.html

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

56. Um, huh. I thought Hastert was one of the officials mixed up in the scandal,...

,...Sibel has been censored over. Curious.

I wonder if SLAD can cast more sunshine on this. I know that poster has kept quite informed about all that.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

57. Yes. My memory does not deceive me. Hastert accepted bribes from Turkey,....

,...apparently.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/10/1346254

Now, what better way to cover up malignant behavior than to pull out a resolution seemingly opposite to your own activities?

[WilliamPitt]

22. Stretch? That was yoga on meth.

;)

[cali]

43. no he doesn't. That's just base calumny.

A variation on saying you're making shit up. In that thread he refers to it as genocide repeatedly.

bzzzt. You've been caught in lying about another DUer and slurring them.

[seemslikeadream]

13. Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers Group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=344



Turkey does not like the Kurds especially the PKK

Turkish PM clears way for Iraq assault
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2010021&mesg_id=2010021


Ruffling feathers - will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
Posted by seemslikeadream on Tue Oct-09-07 08:52 PM


Ruffling feathers - will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1608046

Turkey sent 350 special ops forces south into Kurdistan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1544571

This is so pissing me off -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1547409

Turkish Commandos Inside Iraq?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1529843

Novak: Bush considering secret military action in Turkey
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1474571
This is my fourth and last time
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1429288

It is really a little too quiet up north right now -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1472171

Please- watch the north in Iraq - this is going to blow shortly.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1429138

Turkish PM threatens to invade northern Iraq - 250,000 men in the region
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1393490

Turkish security services in possession of videotapes of weapon deliveries by US military to PKK
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1327965

[Eurobabe]

14. Let's just cover up Genocides

Bush and cronies that are holocaust deniers deserve to burn at the stake. Yes, this was a mass slaying, just like what happened to the Jews, the people in Bosnia and Kosovo.

When do the Armenians get justice?

Unfreakingbelievable.

Politics trump moral values, once again.

[bdamomma]

31. 48 percenter I am angry.

it's amazing that no one group is in the clutches of this vile and disgusting regime of *co, now he is screwing the Armenian people, this man is so heartless and deems Turkey as our allies and to dismiss that this happened to a million and half that were slaughtered. Well what do expect from man who is ethic cleansing Iraq right now. Damn him.

[Eurobabe]

45. Just goes to show you that in American politics money and influence

always trump morality, values and doing what's right.

:eyes:

FWIW, I am pissed off too, but not surprised -- and that says volumes about what has become of the United States of America and her leaders.

:mad:

[MrCoffee]

44. this isn't covering up genocide

and you know that, so knock it off

[Eurobabe]

46. uh, yeah, it is. It is allowing a country to sweep atrocities

under the rug.

Do you think for a second Germany would have EVER gotten away with that?

No fucking way. You are way off base here, ever read a history book?

[MrCoffee]

49. so if Congress passes the resolution, Turkey will acknowledge the genocide?

that's your argument?

[Eurobabe]

51. No, my argument is that it is high time the US

acknowledged that this is a genocide, I am not sure what Turkey will do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Becuase Turkey does not recognize this even happened

and they want to invade northern Iraq to chase after Kurds

That is why

It will only increase tensions

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Becuase Turkey does not recognize this even happened

and they want to invade northern Iraq to chase after Kurds

That is why

It will only increase tensions

[MrCoffee]

25. if someone could please tell me why this will make Turkey change their position

i'd be greatly appreciative.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Could somebody tell me why this should be rejected?

[JVS]

30. In terms of Realpolitik because Turkey is one of the 2 countries in the Mid-East that doesn't hate..

our guts and antagonizing them might be a bad idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. To reduce tensions and be able to talk to turkey

and prevent turkey from invading northern Iraq.

Real Politik

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. So should we deny the holocaust to improve German-American relations?

[JVS]

39. That would be unneccessary at this point. Relations with them have been fine for nearly 60 years

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Let's say for the sake of argument they were iffy.

[JVS]

62. Let's not.

I'm not willing to concede unreal conditions to you in order for you to be able to make your argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. If this is passed it wil only increase tensions and the possibility that Turkey

will go in.

If we don't. it will open some wiggle room

Personally IT WAS the first genocide of the 20th century and all political calculations should be sent packing.

But that is not a political statement

Nor a diplomatic one.

It is a big deal since all genocide should be recognized for what it is.

[seemslikeadream]

19. Read Jane's Defense on the PKK and a lot more

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=12870

Ruffling feathers - Will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
Key Points
Turkey's government is under pressure to attack rebel Kurdish bases in Iraq after the ruling party's election victory.

The Turkish military wants to launch an invasion to disrupt the Workers' Party of Kurdistan (Partiya Karkaren Kurdistan: PKK) before it can take advantage of growing disaffection within Turkey's Kurdish population.

The government will have to balance the military's ambitions against its relationship with the US, which will not want northern Iraq's stability harmed by a Turkish invasion.


The Turkish military is preparing for a potential offensive against Kurdish rebel bases in Iraq. Graeme Wood examines the country's options.

Turkey is once again undergoing preparations for a possible invasion of northern Iraq to disrupt the activities of the Workers' Party of Kurdistan (Partiya Karkaren Kurdistan: PKK). On 7 August, Iraqi and Turkish Prime Ministers Nouri al-Maliki and Recep Tayyip Erdogan signed a Memorandum of Understanding to jointly work towards ending the PKK presence in Iraq. The decision followed Turkey's July general election, won by the ruling Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkinma Partisi: AKP), which saw the opposition parties, the Republican People's Party and the National Action Party, running on nationalist platforms.

Such a cross-border operation against the PKK would not be unprecendented. Turkish soldiers have been fighting the PKK in Iraqi Kurdish regions since the mid-1990s, usually just across the border from Turkey. Every few years the fight against the guerrilla movement reaches a minor crescendo, with the Turkish military weighing the option of swooping into the Kandil mountains to completely destroy the PKK's camps. Four significant incursions were launched in the 1990s and 2001.

So far, Turkish deployments inside Iraq have been modest. Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani (nephew of KRG President Massoud Barzani) confirmed in early August that Turkish troops had already begun operating in Iraqi territory. However, their main activity has consisted of preparatory work on the Turkish side of the border, in particular the establishment of 'temporary security zones' in the border provinces of Hakkari, Siirt, and Sirnak. These zones involve tighter controls on civilian movement and could be a prelude to cross-border action.

As these zones and the election demonstrate, attacking the PKK camps is once again being considered seriously in Ankara. Perhaps the most significant reason for this is that the PKK's insurgency has shown surprising resilience by sustaining itself since ending its unilateral ceasefire in May 2004, and there are signs it has taken lethal new tactical turns. In addition, given the PKK's strategic reliance on static camps, the military is confident that it could deal a substantial blow to the organisation in a cross-border operation.

Domestic factors also provide a favourable climate for an invasion in 2007, particularly the ruling AKP's desire to demonstrate its Kemalist credentials. The party narrowly failed to win the two thirds of parliamentary seats necessary to act unilaterally in appointing a president, and so it needs to pander to nationalists such as the National Action Party. Also, a stand-off between the military and the government in May, when the armed forces all but threatened a coup if the AKP's preferred presidential candidate was appointed, demonstrated that the AKP must also take into account the military's wishes in its appointments and policies. An invasion to tackle the PKK is supported within the military and could be seen as a concession to the armed forces from the AKP.

There are, however, obstacles to an invasion. The reaction of Iraqi Kurds, the Iraqi government and the US may mitigate against a cross-border operation, although an agreement could be reached with all parties for limited military operations. Furthermore, Turkish Kurds, who gained the greatest parliamentary representation ever in the July elections by running as independents, could act as a restraint on the government if it requires Kurdish support in parliament.

Given these competing factors, the probability of a Turkish invasion of Iraq is not yet assured. Nonetheless, the Turkish military has pressed forward at the Iraqi border and sent in mine clearance and special forces teams. In August, in the run-up to the Maliki-Erdogan meeting, Iraqi Kurdish media reported intense Turkish shelling and a 1 km incursion into the KRG area in Iraq's Zakho district. These events and the discourse in Ankara suggest that the likelihood of an invasion is at its greatest since 2001. Even if it does not take place in 2007, it is likely to occur in 2008 or 2009.


lots more.........

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

28. I suppose BushCO would/could never anticipate this might happen. BLECH!!!!

I think this is just another calculated means to the PNAC end.

MIHOP/LIHOP or just another opportunity that just HAPPENS to present itself as a justification to pursue PNAC and expand conflict in the region?

BushCO is prolly jumping up and down with glee while engaging in the usual psyops to divert and project blame elsewhere, namely, the Democrats.

[bdamomma]

24. it is a "big deal" for the Armenian people

that is like saying why are the Jews bringing up the holocaust after so many years, an injustice was done to Armenians today.

[MrCoffee]

27. i meant, why is it a big deal for Congress

what injustice was done to Armenians today? the genocide happened 90 years ago

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Those who refuse to learn from history are condemend to repat it

also if you have a well respected body pasing a resolution, you may have a better chance of getting reparations even 90 years after the fact.

And it is recognizing that a genocide occurred. This was not even understood for the first fifty years, and yes, in some ways it lay the territory for both the horrors of the holocaust and the gulags, as both used methods first developed by the Turks.

[MrCoffee]

42. this resolution will do nothing to encourage Turkey to acknowledge the genocide

which seems like the whole point. if anything, this will encourage Turkey to continue it's policy of denial.

are you suggesting that the US pay reparations to Armenians?

[Eurobabe]

47. I am not suggesting reparations

I think what the Armenian people want is for Turkey to recognize this period in time, make amends and move forward. Simple as that.

And Turkey is never getting into the EU, heck my landlord is Turkish and he and most business owners don't WANT to be part of the EU because their cost of doing business (labor, materials, etc.) are going to price them out of many markets.

[MrCoffee]

52. my whole point is this...

in what way will a resolution by the US Congress acknoledging the Armenian genocide encourage Turkey to acknoledge it?

Turkey has denied the genocide for 90 years. A Congressional resolution is going to change that?


i don't believe that this resolution is about getting Turkey to recognize anything. the resolution always been a domestic political issue. i agree that acknowledging genocide is the moral thing to do. i don't think it's as simple as it's being made out to be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. No, but it will encourage the Hague to pressure Turkey

as well as the UN.. as part of the Genocide Conventions

It has an effect...

Oh and let me add, silence makes us part of the conspiracy of silence.

A resolution is important, if nothing else, to break that silence

[MrCoffee]

54. encourage the Hague? who are they going to put on trial?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Their function is not only to try people

but to also pass judgement

At this point, it would be for reparations

[bdamomma]

40. this resolution was brought up to recognize that there was a genocide of the

Armenians in 1915, and because of Turkey being our (supposedly) allies if the Congress voted in favor of the Armenians this would cast a very bad light on this thuggish regime we have here. Does anyone think the Turks will not attack Northern Iraq now just because the Congress was called off to pass this resolution doesn't mean squat to the Turks they will probably still attack the Kurds.

[seemslikeadream]

36. Turkey bombs suspected Kurdish rebels

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3023126#3023126
3023126, Turkey bombs suspected Kurdish rebels
Posted by shain from kane on Wed Oct-10-07 01:27 PM

Source: Associated Press


By SELCAN HACAOGLU
Associated Press Writer


SIRNAK, Turkey --Turkish warplanes bombed positions of suspected Kurdish rebels Wednesday, and the prime minister said preparations for parliamentary approval of a military mission against separatist fighters in Iraq were under way.

A cross-border operation could hurt Turkey's relationship with the United States, which opposes Turkish intervention in northern Iraq, a region that has escaped the violence afflicting much of the rest of the country.
-----------------------------
Turkey and the United States are NATO allies, but ties have also been tense over a U.S. congressional bill that would label the mass killings of Armenians by Turks around the time of World War I as genocide. President Bush strongly urged Congress to reject the bill, saying it would do "great harm" to U.S.-Turkish relations.
---------------------------------------
Turkish troops blocked rebel escape routes into Iraq while F-16 and F-14 warplanes and Cobra helicopters dropped bombs on possible hideouts, Dogan news agency reported. The military had dispatched tanks to the region to support the operation against the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, in response to more than a week of deadly attacks in southeastern Turkey.



Read more: http://www.bnd.com/283/story/149436.html

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

60. In hopes MrCoffee will read SLAD's post and compare to his/hers.

:kick: