Somebody Needs to say It, " Those Burmese Monks Should Have Had Uzi's Under Their Robes"

[Wiley50]

Thugs like the military rulers of Burma respect nothing except Force greater than their own.

And greater moral force doesn't cut it. It's like going up against machine guns armed with Nerf Balls

They have only one use for religion: it is to keep their victims docile to their tyranny by providing solace

Nothing else.

The monks should have raised money and smuggled in weapons, distributing them to their supporters.

THEN, gone marching. And when the military got mean, whip them out from under their robes and showed them who is boss.

Yes, there are some that will scream, "NO It Would Have Been A Bloodbath!"

It Was.

The monks just lined up and let the thugs bash their brains out on a brick wall, one by one.

And so the revolution failed again.

The days of Gandhi and MLK are over. It's a different world now.

Hopefully some people will learn by their sacrifice.

[Trajan]

1. The military thugs of Myanmar ....

Are good friends of Cheney from WAY back ...... Halliburton and UNOCAL both prospered under their fascist rule .....

I would be surprised if there were ONE fascist regime that the Texas Oil Barony hasn't ever jumped in bed with ......

[cali]

2. Then they wouldn't be who they are.

They took vows. Refuge and Boddhisatva vows, presumably. And those vows are intrinsically who they are. Suggesting they pick up Uzis and blow away their persecutors is profoundly disrespectful.

[renie408]

3. Thanks. n/t

[AuntPatsy]

4. So very true.

[Wiley50]

5. I don't expect the overly religious to understand

Religion iis Religion

Revolution is Revolution

[cali]

6. It's not about being "overly religious". It's about

understanding the precepts that these monks live by. And respecting their choices.

[TomInTib]

16. Do you think they chose to die?

I am not being argumentative, cali, I am truly wondering.

They had to know they were going to be slaughtered.

Courageous and committed beyond anything I can imagine.

[bicentennial_baby]

24. Chose? No....Knew it would happen, probably

Which is why I admire them so deeply. They stood in the face of violent repression and brought a message of peace. And died for doing so.

x(

[cali]

27. I think many of them probably accepted that

possibility. That's kind of inherent in the choices they made, and the vows they took. It's not like Buddhist vows are akin to vows for the priesthood. They don't vow to serve God or Buddha. They vow to serve all humans and forswear enlightenment until all are enlightened.

[TomInTib]

62. I understand Buddhist vows.

If you ever get off your butt and come to Tiburon and see my Gallery, you will understand.

This thing has me reeling.

I just cannot believe that they did this.

Suicide is not part of the deal.

The last two days, I was looking at those pictures thinking, "Most of these people will be dead within days".

I am blown away.

I have friends in Myanmar who I haven't been able to reach in days.

[cali]

70. I am so terribly sorry about your friends, Tom.

I will be thinking of them and hoping that you hear from them soon and that they are well.

And I think we both agree that this wasn't about suicide.

[Cerridwen]

31. I think they made that choice.

Not stalking you, honestly. Saw your subject before your name. :D

Anyhoo, I truly think they made a choice that to do what they felt they must do, they might die. That was a choice.

I don't know if I have that particular form of bravery or commitment or foolishness if that's what some might call it.

But, yes. I think they chose to die for what they believed. They had to know what they were up against. Yet, they went up against it anyway. Another choice.

At the very least, they chose to accept what might happen to them.

[TomInTib]

44. There is no more honorable action...

than to lay down one's life for one's conviction.

After some of my reflections/memories of today, this just blows me away.

All of those guys made a collective, conscious decision to lay it all down.


And hey, Cerridwen, at my age and state of decrepancy, I could use a few stalkers.

Is "decrepancy" a word?

[Cerridwen]

69. It is a different mind-set, reality, ideal, conviction than what most in the U.S.

can conceive, I think. I include myself in that. My intent is not to cast aspersions but to point out a different view of the world. (See my post #50 in this thread)

I don't think I can or should judge others by my "world view" any more than others can judge me on mine. We have no true understanding of each others' convictions and beliefs. To try to apply what works in "our reality" to what should work in another's is, in part, the reason empires colonise and countries invade other countries; all with equally disastrous results.

As to the rest of your post :D if you're going for something age-related I think you meant decrepit or some derivative? At my age, it's sometimes hard to tell. :rofl:

[Naturyl]

56. Yes, that's exactly what they did.

They chose to die rather than violate their principles. Sure, that kind of approach is not right for you and I, but you and I are not Buddhist monks. That is another level of commitment entirely.

[Cerridwen]

76. I'm not sure whether "right" or "wrong" applies.

I know that as of this second, it's beyond my level of conviction to do what they did.

My only points are:

I care not to judge.
I truly think they made a choice.
I cannot, at this second, know the depth of their conviction for myself.
I do not know, at this second, what I would do if a revolution came to my doorstep.

[FredScuttle]

7. You don't have to be religious to respect their actions

You are being profoundly disrespectful with this idiotic Rambo fantasy thread.

[Wiley50]

14. Then they should have stayed in their monastery and not tried to lead a revolution

They each take different tools

[renie408]

17. Wow. Do those callouses on your knuckles give you much trouble when you try to type? n/t

[Coexist]

127. ever heard of MLK or Gandhi??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_resistance

[burythehatchet]

112. used to be John Wayne, now Rambo. The depth of misunderstading

and ignorance is truly mind-boggling.

[AuntPatsy]

11. I understood your anger and your reasoning, but I also understand why

they refuse to act in like manner to the way they are being treated, in a perfect world they wouldn't need protection, but its obviously not and they do, and though they cannot take up arms, others can, I would to protect my own and or to defeat the criminaly insane individuals who care so little for human life.


Not sure what that makes me but as much as I admire their faith, I would personaly behave differently but they do deserve respect for their beliefs is all I believe some meant, I don't think anyone was attempting to be offensive to your op.

[Wiley50]

29. It wasn't meant to be an offensive OP, just the facts Mam

and BTW Even Rambo bugged out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1955105

[AuntPatsy]

36. I understand where your coming from and yes I did see the Rambo thread, can't wait for the movie.

As you can see though I can admire those that don't need brute physical force in order to face obstacles I can also find admiration for those that do use it, a paradox I can be.

[cali]

37. But that's not the realm they exist in.

It's not their reality. You just have to accept that they don't think in the terms you laid out in your OP.

[renie408]

15. Goober, I'm an atheist. And I still get that they wouldn't BE monks

if they carted uzi's around under their robes. And they are BUDDHIST monks, at that. They are non-violent. It is part of what gives this story its punch. See, if they were all shooting at each other, nobody would care as much.

[TomInTib]

21. Do you think they were planning to die?

I do.

And I respect them for it.

[renie408]

26. Me too. I think they were tremendously brave precisely because they DIDN'T

have uzi's under their robes.

I cried when I thought about those monks lined up and allowing themselves to be killed one by one because to do anything different would have been a violation of their beliefs. You don't have to be religious to respect that.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. Thank you

:)

[karlrschneider]

12. All very true, and may explain their not-too-distant disappearance.

We shall see, though.

[Coexist]

126. THANK YOU.

for crying out loud.

[spoony]

135. Thank you!

If people sacrifice their identities, then they may as well surrender. For the dignified, peaceful ways of these monks to be condemned as out of touch or obsolete is just...SO wrong.

[TomInTib]

8. I agree. Vows are useless against superior force.

When they hit the streets, they were already dead.

If they didn't know that, they were fools.

If they knew it and did it anyway, then they were strong and honorable beyond anything I can imagine.

[cali]

19. They weren't fools.

And their vows aren't useless. And the power of those vows can be seen in what they did. And who knows what their courage may inspire?

[AuntPatsy]

32. I cannot even imagine that kind of bravery, going into battle with only

your own personal strength, the world would be much better off if all felt the same way I would imagine. Anyone could feel brave behind the power of an ak47, not everyone is brave enough to go without.

[TomInTib]

35. I meant what I said. Did you read my entire reply?

"If they knew it and did it anyway, then they were strong and honorable beyond anything I can imagine."

[cali]

39. I did. And I agree with your statement. n/t

[renie408]

42. EXACTLY. They gave their lives and it is BECAUSE they didn't

have 'uzi's under their robes' that this story is getting the attention it is. Their peaceful protests pack far more power than any number of uzi's ever could.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. They knew exactly what they were doing.

Read up on what happened almost 20 years ago in Burma, the 8-8-88 movement. These brave monks understood that they were going to die. Their courage and dedication to non violent resistence is almost beyond comprehension. The naive idiocy of the OP's thread is a stunning insult to what these freedom fighters have given up their lives for. They are an example to all of us. There is no political solution through violent revolution. Not in Burma, not here either.

[PDenton]

9. I don't know if that would help, really

They'd just be shot after getting a few shots off.

I don't know what the uprising in Burma is about, but killing unarmed people is pretty barbaric.

I think there should be sanctions on Burma if there aren't already. No trade at all. Maybe a UN force should go in there and end the regime?

[Marrah_G]

13. That is not who they are

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

18. Your right, it is a different world now.

But the days of Gandhi and King have just started, it takes time to change ideas that have been conditioned into us. peace be with you and all of us.

[backscatter712]

20. I was thinking of saying it.

I'm a great fan of non-violent direct action and civil disobedience, but what happened in Burma pretty much cemented a theory I had in my mind.

My hypothesis:

Civil disobedience only works if enough people in the government's leadership actually have a conscience.

The 1960's civil rights movement worked because there were enough conscientious people in government to push it through. The dissolution of the Soviet Union, and the fall of the Berlin Wall happened because enough people in government and military top positions stood up to Communist hard liners and said "No, we're not going that far."

But that isn't always the case.

In China, nobody stood up to the psychopaths in power who said "Put the Tienanmen uprising down." Or maybe there was one or two, but that one or two was forcibly silenced. The same thing happened over and over in Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, etc. People stood up, like the White Roses, but nobody in leadership positions stood up. So the hammer came down, and people who wanted justice and democracy were crushed. In Burma, there was nobody to stand up the the military rulers, who don't care how many people get murdered so they can remain in power.

You know what scares me?

I'm absolutely certain that George Bush and Dick Cheney are among those who do not have a conscience. Absolutely certain - 100%. And they have been spending the past six years pushing the people with conscience out of government. There aren't very many of them left. Soon, when people like us stand up and say "What you are doing is wrong," there may be not be enough people left in the halls of power who will stand up and say "You're going too far," and what happened in Burma will happen here.

Fortunately, we do still have a Second Amendment in this country. I'd suggest those who are so inclined get weapons now while they still can. I'm not about to let myself be executed, tortured, driven on a death march or left to rot in a concentration camp. Maybe those Buddhist monks died upholding principles of non-violence, and they're incredibly noble for that. But I'm not that noble. I'll die fighting.

[Wiley50]

38. Great Post. It completes what I had in mind with the op

People of conscience in govt are a vanishing breed

[sentelle]

157. What does that mean?

You talk of how government leaders had (at least some) conscience. Not just here with MLK, but elsewhere, with Ghandi, and the soviets. Yet they don't anymore. Does this mean that civilization has peaked? are we simply becoming more and more barbarous as a race (human race)?

Seriously, where is the outrage to the iniquity in the world? Hell, the iniquity in our own neighborhoods? Does anyone care about anything but themselves? Sure, we all talk a good game, but ultimately we all show our beliefs by what we do, what we are capable when we have to lay it on the line.

The monks layed it on the line, and were killed for it. What are we willing to die for? What is so important, you are willing to stand up for it? Is there anything that any of us is willing to act on, not fund, not protest, but act in a reasonable way?

There is a difference between what a person is willing to KILL for, and what one is willing to risk their OWN death over. It shows resolve.

And no, it is not a futile gesture, unless others are unwilling to take the torch from them. In which case, the monks believe in humanity, and the divine is misguided.

Too bad the media cares more about britney than this....

[backscatter712]

166. Do you think Bush has a conscience? or Cheney?

I don't. They're sociopaths, and you know, birds of a feather - they're bringing more people like them into government every day - witness the whole U.S. Attorneys scandal.

They're actively pushing out, punishing and even imprisoning those in government who won't play ball with them - those with a conscience, who react by saying "This is illegal. This is wrong."

I'm certainly willing to stand up, but I'm only one person, and all I can do is make some phone calls, write letter, stand on a street with a sign and make noise. And that just doesn't seem to be good enough, even if I do so in the face of being shot. Not in the face of all this hatred and death.

Yeah, I see humanity rapidly plunging into a new age of barbarism. I'm losing hope. :(

[renie408]

22. And honestly...DOES somebody really need to say this? n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

89. Well, yeah

You wouldn't want anyone to think DUers are well-informed or culturally sensitive or mentally over the age of twelve, would you?

:banghead:

[AlCzervik]

23. wow.

[bicentennial_baby]

25. exactly...

x(

[Forkboy]

49. Hey you!

How ya been?

:hi:

[bicentennial_baby]

59. hey *you*!!

Yes, crawling out of the Lounge... :P

Good! Sniffa and I are coming up on our 3 month wedding anniversary, busy with Senior yr of school, etc, etc. But, good, overall. :)

How are you?! :bounce:

:hi:

[Forkboy]

65. Insane, as always.

I've decided madness is my comfort zone.Sanity is for crazy people. :)

Nothing at all exciting going on in my life, and that's not a bad thing.Been a long year and it's only 3/4 done, so any down time is welcome.

You should come out of the Lounge more often...or I should go in the Lounge more often.

:loveya:

[bicentennial_baby]

77. Agreed!!

Miss you, friend...

We should hang out sometime, Masshole :D

:hug:

:loveya:

[ourbluenation]

28. Gandhi was dealing with a reasonable opposition - these people are monsters.

Gandhi's policy of non-violent protest probably wouldn't have worked in Burma - he would have suffered the same fate as the monks.

I'm sad beyond words for these people.

[JVS]

95. I'm sure they have their reasons too.

Somewhere in Rangoon right now there are probably people saying "Well, what do you expect them to do? Let a bunch of religious kooks take over the country?"

[Kajsa]

139. What?

"Let a bunch of religious kooks take over the country?"

Do you know what position monks held in Burma?

Until they demonstrated, a very high one.

After they took to the streets in opposition to the thugs
running the country, they were slaughtered like anyone
else who dares to stand up to the dictatorship.

I believe the people of Burma support the monks.

No one there has any rights to do/ say anything in opposition
to the government.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. Jallianwala Bagh massacre

The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, also known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in the northern Indian city of Amritsar, where, on April 13, 1919, British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted about 10 minutes and 1650 rounds were fired, or 33 rounds per soldier. Official (Raj) sources placed the casualties at 379. According to private sources, the number was over 1000, with more than 2000 wounded,<1> and Civil Surgeon Dr. Smith indicated that they were over 1800.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_Massacre

The reasonable opposition you speak of here: the British colonial administration, were every bit as brutal and bloody as the Burmese military thugs. The monks and the people of Burma know exactly what they are up against, they remember quite well the slaughter of the 8-8-88 movement.

[ourbluenation]

156. oh, so your speaking for the monks. The british colonials were not even CLOSE to the junta in Burma.

I'm aware of the massacre in India but I still stand by what I said. I understand buddist monks being non-violent, but the non monks will have to rebel at some point and it will probably be a violent rebellion. wish it weren't so, but there it is.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

131. there were some massacres.

the movie on Gandhi was pretty accurate about the scene inside the walled city. machine guns vs. unarmed women and childred.

[MedleyMisty]

30. Do you understand anything about Buddhism?

Just wondering.

[AlCzervik]

33. this thread defies all logic, Monks with guns, whats next, Nuns with crossbows?

[AuntPatsy]

40. the truth is in the world we live in both past and present there have always been

those that thrive on viciousness and evil, so in such a world, people that can fight back is also needed as well as the peace makers who fight evil with simple goodness.....


We need both it seems. I wish I had that kind of faith that the monks possess but I don't give humanity as a whole that much credit that would be needed to hold such a faith.

[Wiley50]

41. In Israel, some Rabbi's carry Uzi's n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

43. Oh, what a magnificent example...

:rofl:

:sarcasm:

[Jim Sagle]

85. Actually it is. And your sarcasm icon is out of place.

But then if you understood that, you would not have posted as you did.

[renie408]

94. No, it's not.

Comparing Jewish Rabbis to Buddhist monks is comparing apples to oranges. All religions are not the same. All religions are not the same. All religions are not the same.

[bicentennial_baby]

96. Yah, and as far as I know, Israelis are soooo non-violent!!

:rofl:

Do you have a bridge to sell me too? :D

Israelis to Buddhists...Hmmm, which of these things are not like the other?

:rofl:

[Jim Sagle]

103. If they were non-violent, they'd be dead. All of them.

And everybody goddamn well knows it.

[Raksha]

108. It may be coming to that everywhere in the world, not just in Israel.

Re >>If they were non-violent, they'd be dead. All of them.<<

As someone noted above, it takes a certain minimal number of people of conscience for non-violence to work. And conscience seems to be an endangered species these days.

[AuntPatsy]

47. And in ancient biblical times, using the sword was standard practice, its all about what one believe

s in.

[AlCzervik]

48. Monks with guns would no longer be monks.

and i'm guessing the monks had an idea of what they were getting into and maybe though dying was worth it. As for Rabbi's packing heat, i don't know about that but i'll ask my Great Uncle The Rabbi when i talk to him next.

[backscatter712]

55. Go see Lucky Number Sleven!

That movie does have a rabbi that packs heat...

[renie408]

51. All religions are not the same. Buddhism is considered by many to be a

philosophy, not a religion. And the first part of the philosophy is to do no harm. None. Not to anybody. For any reason. Ever.

[AlCzervik]

54. i can't believe we're having a discussion about arming Monks, did i take crazy pills today?

[renie408]

63. I don't think it was you. n/t

[cali]

61. And that's the bottom line. The first of the five precepts

is to refrain from taking life.

[cascadiance]

80. Are these the guys you are thinking of?...

[hlthe2b]

34. You know nothing about Buddhism, do you?

That could never have happened. And, if you think that Gandhi and MLK did not face down violence resulting in death of their followers-while still maintaining a non-violent stance--you really really really need to read some history. Please do... :shrug:

[Wiley50]

60. I've Studied About Most Religions but, in the end, I believe in Science more

I understand why they did what they did

But, it just proves to me that delusions can be suicidal at times

[hlthe2b]

87. I"m the most "left-brained" person my friends/family know

and my entire working career has been in science/medicine. Yet, I do understand what they did, though I clearly could not. But, whatever you think you learned about Buddhism from your study of religions did not teach you about Buddhism. It is not based on some delusion or believe in some God entity per se. It is a way of being, reacting to life, others, and what comes to pass. You are bringing an antagonism towards religious doctrine (some which I share) to try to understand Buddhism. It does not apply. I hope someday you'll spend a bit of time specifically learning more about Buddhism. I have a great deal of respect for those who live their lives true to Buddhist beliefs and though I am appalled at the horrendous waste of these wonderful people, I can, on some level understand their actions.

[Mythsaje]

45. No, that would be the OTHER kind of monk...

The shaolin kick-ass revolutionary monk...the ones that kept pissing off the Chinese government until they finally tried to wipe them off the Earth because they were a bloody nuisance.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Damn soulless Hollywood Rambo/Jean Claude generation.

[AuntPatsy]

58. God forgive me, I liked the Rambo movies, I love seeing the deserving get justice meted out

and at the same time I detest violence? consider me a product of the movie generation where reality is easy to turn off.

[BlooInBloo]

64. So do I; but not at the cost of people's integrity and ideals. They've already lost at that point.

[AuntPatsy]

75. I agree there is a fine line but the reality of the world we were born into

is that there will always be greedy evil bloodthirsty fools attempting to destroy others and so there must be an opposite of equal ability to use force when necessary.

If I came across a person say stabbing someone in full attack mode and I had a weapon on me, I would not hesitate to use it and take the evil one out, I would more than likely feel sick about the whole situation but I do believe that evil deserves no mercy and evil does exist like it or not which I don't but there it is.

Though I do have a very personal faith I also value scientific fact and as the years have gone by I have less tolerance of taking anyone or anything at face value.

That being said, I admire the monks and wish I could help them.

[BlooInBloo]

79. Yup - don't take the meaning of their lives away from them by wishing they were something else.

[AuntPatsy]

84. I understand and that is not my intent at all, in fact I wish I could be more like them.

[renie408]

67. Hey, I am being forced to watch while the TV is being flipped between

"Universal Soldier" and the Padres game.

SOMEBODY SAVE ME.


(I did get to see Jean Claude Van Damme's butt, though!!)

[BlooInBloo]

68. Bah - watching crap when there's a perfectly good football game on.

[renie408]

72. Oh wait...I think he is managing to get some of that in, too. I heard him bitching about New England

a minute ago.

[BlooInBloo]

73. Yah - they're pretty damn good.

[FloridaJudy]

81. Bah - watching a game when there's perfectly good crap on.

[BlooInBloo]

83. Just because you can't beat Auburn in the Swamp.

Oh no he di-int!

Oh yes he di-id!!

:rofl:

[FloridaJudy]

97. Did Auburn beat UF?

I never follow football. That qualifies me as a heretic in this town. No wonder everybody looked so ticked off Sunday.

[BlooInBloo]

98. yuppers.

[Cerridwen]

50. From a book I'm re-re-reading...

The author says:

I was reading several books on Buddha's
life. In one book was a story that really gave me something to chew on.
It seems that Buddha had a disciple, a teenage boy, who devoutly came
to spend a little time with the master each day. One day the boy's village
went to war with a neighboring village. The boy was drafted to defend his
home. The battle raged hot and heavy. Dead animals and dead and
wounded friends lay around. Blood and death were the order of the day.
The disciple became terrified, immobilized with fear. In his desperation
he cried out "Buddha, save me". Buddha, hearing the plea in his heart,
appeared on the edge of the battlefield. Buddha in all his radiance began
to walk across the war zone. His countenance was of his usual peace and
beauty. He arrived at the side of his friend, a smile on his face, calm in
his being, and held the boy until his composure returned.


In the context of my understanding of the realities of life, I had no choice
but to declare Buddha an insensitive, compassionless monster. My
understanding said that battles were real, that harm was being done,
lives were being lost and pain was being experienced. If Buddha had at
least as much insight as I had, then surely he would have been upset. He
certainly would have used his influence as a local authority figure to stop
the war, to convince these people that they were going against the will of
God. But he didn't. As a matter of fact he never resisted evil in any form.
And surely Jesus wasn't serious when he said "Resist not evil".
(emphasis added)

[Naturyl]

52. That's not what Buddhist monks do.

They would rather die than sink to the level of the tyrants, and that is why they are admired for their principles. I agree that they have every right to self-defense, but Buddhist monks don't become guerrilla soldiers. The fact that tyrants mistake this commitment to higher moral standards for weakness does not mean that it is the wrong approach. The world is united in sympathy for these monks. I do wish that someone would send in some actual soldiers to get behind them physically, though. Monks are not soldiers.

[Cronopio]

105. "Monks are not soldiers." Actually, sometimes they are.

http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Warriors-CIA-Backed-Fighters-Communist/dp/1585423483/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7351283-8856609?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191303779&sr=8-1

[Forkboy]

53. This thread gets my vote for best visual aid of the week.

The image of monks loaded for bear is the funniest damn thing.

Other than that the thread is beyond silly. :thumbsdown:

[EFerrari]

57. My friend, it's always been a different world.

People died during Gandhi's resistance and during Martin's.

[Kingshakabobo]

66. Where's Kwai Chang Caine when you need him :(

[AlCzervik]

71. waiting on his 7 day background check no doubt.

nuts, i think after reading this thread i've literally read it all. This one is the winner.

[renie408]

74. Thank you both, that was hilarious. n/t

[cascadiance]

78. So is this what you are looking for?...

[charlie]

82. Guns. Is there anything they can't do?

No problem they can't fix? No happiness they can't deliver? The world should take a year off from raising food, having sex, and all that rot, and just make guns. Make guns until they're hanging from trees, falling off rooftops, washing ashore by the millions. Then the world. would. be. perfect. A well-oiled, well-mannered utopia.

Or so I hear. A lot.

[Hydra]

86. Don't listen to the flames

If we hadn't heard about the monks being killed, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

That is the power of extermination.

Buddha says, "I shall show you how the Dhamma is similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping"

The teachings are a means, not an end.

[cali]

88. Well, maybe not the flames

but the posts explaining might be useful- even some of the ones that are a bit harsh. Do you know the story of Tilopa and Naropa?

[Hydra]

100. I'm a left-hand path walker

But I read the story- about a blind man thinking that he seeks wisdom. In refusing to see, he rejects the truths of the right-hand path.

To anyone worth their salt in either path, the fact that they died is irrelevant- none of this is real anyway. Left-handers like myself, though, look to how life can be better for people, rather than transcended.

[Cronopio]

162. "The teachings are a means, not an end."

They're both. The path is the goal.

[Hydra]

167. No, the path is the route

The goal is to wake up from Maya, and Buddha made clear that the method was not important. As such, he probably wouldn't disapprove of my left-handedness since we end up in the same place. His supposed followers often do have such issues, though :evilgrin:

[Cronopio]

171. "... the method was not important."

The path is *vitally* important to the person on it. The fact that there are as many paths as practitioners doesn't change that.

And the path becomes the goal in practice, as you travel on it. The goal of meditation is to be in meditation, and the experience of meditation transforms itself and you in a non-dualistic way toward enlightenment the more you are engaged in it.

"The path is the goal." - Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

[Hydra]

172. You're showing off your raft

to borrow my previous Buddha quote.

... "Therefore, be islands unto yourselves. Be your own refuge. Have recourse to none else for refuge. Hold fast to the Dharma as an island. Hold fast to the Dharma as a refuge. Resort to no other refuge. Whosoever, either now or after I am gone, shall be islands unto themselves, refuges unto themselves, shall seek no external refuge, it is they, among my disciples who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be keen to progress."

I hope I need not translate.

[KitchenWitch]

90. The disconnect here astounds me

:wow:

Ign'ance is bliss I guess.

[bicentennial_baby]

91. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1955887

:)

:hug:

[BlooInBloo]

92. BB has it covered.

[KitchenWitch]

93. I saw that!

:hi:

[JI7]

99. so they can be in the same situation as Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam

the people there had weapons, and they certainly don't have peace.

one thing the Buddhist Monks have is the respect of the people. even with the tight controls on the media and the lies of the military leaders, the people still side with the monks.

[uppityperson]

101. Oh bs, unless this is sarcasm. Death is not the worst thing there can be.

The revolution hasn't failed again. Death is not the worst thing there can be for some. I am sorry you do not see this and cannot seem to understand.

[Mojorabbit]

102. I understand the sentiment

I wanted it to be just like a movie and have the monks and people win and be out from under the miserable junta. I understand how it is in real life though. I still grieve for those brave people and I am so sad for how it turned out. I am also pissed that the whole world did not stop in it's tracks and condemn their govt. I want a happy ending damn it.

[KitchenWitch]

104. I think we are due about 6.5 years of happy endings at this point!

x(

[Raksha]

106. Sadly, I have to agree. n/t

[Norrin Radd]

107. Putting out a fire with gasoline. n/t

[seriousstan]

109. I remember that famous non-violent race of people...what were their names?

Oh. that's right they were wiped from the face of history without a trace.

[Cronopio]

111. And all those people who died on Omaha Beach - what morons, right?

Oh right, we won the war, so *they're* heroes, not schmucks like those nice little peace-loving monks who "lost". And the Nazis who got wiped out - they weren't exactly weak-kneed pacifists, were they?

Don't worry, the path of least resistance will always take care of you.

[grahamhgreen]

117. The Indians in India.

[grahamhgreen]

118. Violence fuels the war profiteers and breeds more war.

[Warren Stupidity]

119. Oh yeah, them.

The ignorance on display in this thread is truly discouraging.

[grahamhgreen]

120. And the blacks in the south.

[grahamhgreen]

121. And all of the thousands of wars that were averted by peacful means.

[Cronopio]

110. "Hopefully some people will learn by their sacrifice."

What did *you* learn from their sacrifice?

That saying "NO" to a repressive regime is pointless until you have more ammo than the opposition?

As a practical matter, where do you think they should have gotten enough Uzis to overpower a military force lavishly funded and backed by the Chinese, and covertly by Western industrial powers?

Even if you don't agree with the Theravadan monks that the Rule of Lethal Threat isn't the best that Burma (or humans in general) can achieve, you could at least respect their dedication to working to free *all sentient beings* from the Rule of Lethal Threat, regardless of their chances for success in their lifetime.

If they overestimated the possibility and the courage of the people in 2007, that isn't their fault or shame. It's just too bad for people who can't understand the wisdom and necessity of their attempt, or the difficulty of working for peaceful ends without resorting to violent means.

The fight isn't over. Those monks sowed some karmic seeds among the Burmese and around the world that we haven't seen the results of yet.

[conscious evolution]

113. "Karma seeds"

Beware the buddha bomb.When set off,the world changes.

Hara Shiva
ce

[ChairmanAgnostic]

128. you go! (girl? guy? irrelevant?)

I fail to see how Stalinist troops taking hundreds of thousands out of their homes and sending them to Gulags or Siberia is any different. (They were short of bullets)
I am missing how Mao's great leap backward or cultural devolution, killing 25,000,000 in the process, is any different.
I can't understand how HItler's treatment of Poles, Jews, Baltics, and a dozen other nationalities differs in one way.

times haven't changed. It is just that people don't learn their history.

[Cronopio]

161. "It is just that people don't learn their history."

Or they do know it, but are too invested/indoctrinated in evil to learn the right lessons from it.

[grahamhgreen]

116. Are you insane? Ghandi died so we would learn to kill people?

[LeftishBrit]

122. But that would have been against the very principles that inspired their actions

These were incredibly courageous people, who sacrificed their lives for their beliefs and their people. I don't know of many who would do that. They should be honoured forever, and mourned by the world.

Perhaps the inspiration given to the world by these people's sacrifice will do much more for their cause in the long run than violent resistance would have. I hope so.

Do you think Gandhi should have carried an Uzi as well?

[Exultant Democracy]

123. If they had weapons with wearing military uniforms wouldn't that make them "Enemy Combatants."

Tick-tock goes the moral clock, while the world goes down in flames.

[ehrnst]

124. And the world would not feel the same outrage at their oppression

The photos of the peaceful marchers with MLK and Ghandi being brutalized were a great catalyst for change, because people understood immediately who the thugs were.

[blondeatlast]

125. I thought this post was a joke. I'm astonished that it's for real.

Would you have said the same about Martin Luther King, Jr. or Ghandi?

Pardon me, I need to throw up now.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

130. I did at first, too.

please move over, there's room for two.

[MilesColtrane]

129. "And so the revolution failed again."

Wow!
You can see the future!

Quick, who is going to win the world series?

Love conquers all. Get used to it.

[NMMNG]

132. So what is going on in Iraq is accomplishing so much more?

No, Uzis wouldn't have done anything but create more bloodshed.

[Richardo]

133. I disagree. No one needed to say that.

So far beyond stupid, that the light from stupid will not reach it for 1,000 years.

[cali]

136. OK, but let me say what I feel is really going on with the

OP I'm sure he'll refute me, if he disagrees. I think, in a way, the OP is exprssing the pain and outrage he feels over what happened to the Burmese monks. It's like a kid talking, saying if only mighty mouse had been there, he could have beat up on those mean guys.

[Midlodemocrat]

147. Agreed.

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

134. Tell that to the people of India. Or Americans in the South. nt

[raccoon]

137. I'm going to hide this thread. nt

[flvegan]

138. Somebody Needs to say It, " Those Burmese Monks Should Have Hired the A-Team"

Nobody ever actually got shot on that show, but the A-Team always won.

[Virginia Dare]

144. I'll take Gandhi and MLK over Rambo or John Wayne any day..

it's not so different a world. Symbolism is a still a very powerful thing.

[flvegan]

145. In addition, Gandhi and MLK were real people.

The Johns Rambo and Wayne were fictional.

Besides, Rambo got busted with steroids. He's a cheater.

[BlooInBloo]

149. I was close with #46!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

140. Do you know anything about Buddhism?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. If they'd have uzis, they'd have garnered no sympathy, and never have a chance.

This revolution has a shot because the populace is sympathetic to monks, and the troops are beginning to mutiny against the government. If it were just a shooting war it'd be like Iraq, stretch out for years and go nowhere.

"The days of Gandhi and MLK are over. It's a different world now."

They shot blacks and indians too, you know. It ain't any different.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

142. What, then, would they be fighting for? Certainly not what they believe in.

The days of Gandhi and MLK are not over.

[Mountainman]

143. They believe in reincarnation. They died as they surely would have some day and they will be

reincarnated.


If the whole world were as the monks were this never would have happened. Human kind is not evolved enough for that to happen. But taking up arms is not heading in the direction of enlightenment but is going the other way.

Someday the opposite of this will take place. People will see the value in protecting all forms of life.

The clash of those on the path to enlightenment with the unenlightened is what we are witnessing. To take up arms is to join the unenlightened.

[piedmont]

146. A disarmed populace is at the mercy of the state. This will fail just like the last one...

or China in 1989.

[blondeatlast]

148. Tell that to India. nt

[BlooInBloo]

150. There's no point. Some people JUST KNOW guns are the ONLY answer....

... you can't talk to people like that.

[blondeatlast]

151. Sadly true and I know far too many of them.

I thought this thread was a sick, ill-timed joke. I'm surprised our friend Zandor hasn't chimed in. :puke:

[BlooInBloo]

152. Trying to build cred by silence, I would assume.

[piedmont]

155. The British were certainly brutal, but not on the level of the Burmese or Chinese military.

The protesters are incredibly brave, and I hope they succeed, but I fear they will be crushed just as in China in 1989, or Burma in 1988, or Tibet since 1950.

[blondeatlast]

159. You might want to ask an Indian about that. I'm married to one, if it helps.

They were heartless and saw the Indians as far less than human.

It was a whilesale slaughter on occasion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

165. I agree. They should all be armed. Then they'll be at peace.

Just like the Iraqis.

[KG]

153. well, that has to be one of the most ignorant OPs i've ever read on DU.

[gatorboy]

154. Luckily the new Rambo movie will help fill his void.

[Akoto]

158. As a Buddhist, I find that to be an absurd statement. n/t

[LanternWaste]

160. Explain that to me, please.

"The days of Gandhi and MLK are over. It's a different world now."

Explain that to me, please. What are the precise and relevant differences between the here and now vs. the turbulent and oft-violent 60's that would preclude peaceful protests from now being successful in the long run.




Armed monks? You're actually being serious, aren't you? Oh dear-- it looks like America's gun-culture has claimed another victim.

[backscatter712]

163. The Burmese are back where they started. Square fucking one.

What's karma and sympathy going to get them? About the same thing the suggestions of violence get them. Nowhere. If they grabbed guns, they would be shot. They chose not to use guns, and they still got shot.

It's all fucking futile. We're all desperately reaching for something - anything to rid us of these demons that murder us and enslave us. And we're getting nothing. We've always had nothing. And all we'll get is nothing.

It's hopeless.

I fail to see how non-violent resistance is helping them. At least you've persuaded me that violent resistance isn't helping either. Nothing is helping them.

Can you tell, I'm really, really fucking bitter right now. There is no comfort for me. Not from the Christian faith, not from the Buddhist faith. All I see is the face of the demons.

[Hydra]

168. So kill the demons

If nobody kills the demons, the demons continue to kill until there is no one left.

[guitar man]

164. no Uzis needed

they just needed this guy...



he woulda fucked them up in a right Zen fashion :)

[varkam]

169. Who Would Jesus Kill?

Buddhists monks? Uzis? Really? Really?

[walldude]

170. Wow what a great plan.. Arm the Monks... Show em' who's boss

Unlike those PHONY MONKS who actually believe in their spirituality. I usually don't disparage a post in this way but this is the stupidest thing I've heard since... since.. shit this may be the stupidest thing ever.