Not reported in the MSM: What Ahmadinejad did on Monday afternoon

[Holly_Hobby]

http://www.president.ir/en /

President Ahmadinejad meets Jewish rabbis in New York



President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Monday afternoon met with a group of Jewish rabbis who gave him a silver grail as a sign of friendship. The president is currently in New York to address the United Nations General Assembly.

The rabbis carried a placard which read, "I am Jewish not a Zionist." A senior rabbi of the group said that they considered the visit to New York of President Ahmadinejad as an exceptional opportunity and would never forget it. He referred to the Iranian president as a person who made a distinction between Jews and Zionists. "You understand us and make a distinction between the violent behavior of Zionists and the religious beliefs of Jews," said the senior rabbi who called President Ahmadinejad "a pious man who is seeking to restore peace in the world and has humanitarian plans." Appreciating the rabbis for their gift, President Ahmadinejad said he was happy to visit them.

"All people in the world have now understood that Judaism is different from Zionism," said the president. He added, "Zionists are a political group looking for taking advantage of the opportunities while Jews are the followers of the Moses who promoted peace and friendship."
President Ahmadinejad stressed that there was no disagreement between the followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all pray the same God and are brothers.

...

Official site of Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran News Service
http://www.president.ir/en /

Go to the website and click on the story. Then click on the picture for more pictures of meeting.

[snappyturtle]

1. Thank you. nt

[Holly_Hobby]

4. More pictures

He must be special, because when I met a Jewish Rabbi, he refused to shake my hand.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[riderinthestorm]

21. So it's okay to shake the hand of a guy who approves of stringing up gays

on a crane until they are dead but not okay to shake hands with a woman? And Holly is "ignorant" how?

[Bonobo]

26. Umm, wtf?

[riderinthestorm]

48. You imply that Holly (a woman) is "ignorant"

because she didn't get her hand shaken by an Orthodox rabbi (implied in your statement was that she didn't know that Orthodox men won't touch women like her).

My point was that these rabbis are fine with touching a criminal like Adminedinejad but cringe at touching someone like Holly.

And who is really "ignorant" in that comparison.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dorian Gray]

75. "These rabbis"

I'm sure are not the same rabbis.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

93. having lived next to ultra-orthodox,

and seeing how they treated their women, and my several girlfriends, I am surprised that no one has raised that issue before. Until I learned just how poorly treated women are by the ultra-orthodox, I would have never guessed.

Handshake? Hah. How about no eye contact, and saying curses about unclothed women sinners as they pass?

[piesRsquare]

157. You don't wanna know some of the other details

regarding what these kooks do.

[Dorian Gray]

185. That happens all the time!

(NOT!) Look, I live on the border of Crown Heights. I live in a community with a HUGE percentage of Orthodox Jews, and many of them are Lubovitch or some of the lesser known Messianic Jewish groups.

I have NEVER ONCE been cursed at or treated badly by those "kooks." For the most part, they do leave me alone and don't pay much attention to me, as I am not Jewish nor do I follow their strict dress codes. But, I have never ever ever been cursed at or treated shabbily either. And it is unfair to call them "kooks" or tell stories about them when you have no interaction with them.

[Chovexani]

191. Don't they pray every morning thanking God they weren't born women?

I remember seeing that in a documentary on LOGO about GLBT Orthodox Jews.

[LittleClarkie]

135. I suspect it's out of modesty instead of an implication of being unclean

Perhaps they are guarding against their own sexual thoughts about a woman if that woman isn't their wife.

[piesRsquare]

163. Actually,

it's because men are not to have any physical contact with a woman while she's menstruating (yeah, even just her hand).

A man wouldn't know if a woman is menstruating or not, and he's not supposed to ask, and (of course) he can't trust her to be polite and refrain from touching others while she's menstruating, so the "safe bet" is to simply not touch women at all.

Women covering up is about guarding against sexual thoughts. The touching thing is a "clean/unclean", or rather "impurity" thing.

[leftynyc]

168. You do realize they wont touch any woman that's

not their wife, don't you?

[gaspee]

69. Of course

A man of god won't shake hands with a woman. Don't you know women are the source of all evil???

The one thing all these nutjobs have in common is their feelings about women. Sigh.

[Chovexani]

189. Gays: bringing organized religions together

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. "Fundamentalist" Jews Are No Different Than Other Fundamentalists

I knew this young woman, a convert, who was living in Israel who lectured an Orthodox rabbi on why he should embrace feminism...I heard this second hand but I found it hilarious...

[BrklynLib at work]

173. THA T is the truth!!! Fanaticism in ANY direction is dangerous...particularly since they usually

cling to the belief that their way is the ONLY right way..and have little or no tolerance for those that disagree.

[PDenton]

181. I would not say Orthodox are necessarily fundamentalists

the comparison with fundamentalist Christian or Muslims is not quite the same. Yes, they believe in more restrictive gender roles, very strict practices in their day to day lives, but they generally don't force their views onto other people. Judaism by its very nature is not a prosthyletizing religion.

Some Orthodox Jews are oppossed to the creation of the state of Israel being they believe the Messiah alone has the authority to do so, that Jews are atoning for their sins first before Israel is re-established (in this meme, Jews became a diaspora because of their sins or falling away from God). It is a religious difference for them. OTOH, the state of Israel was founded by secular-minded Jews, many of them irreligious. The religious settler movement in Israel/West Bank is a very wierd mixture of Orthodox/Conservative religious beliefs and secular nationalism.

[Holly_Hobby]

35. You're right

I didn't understand and I still don't.

[Bonobo]

40. Orthodox and ultra-orthodox is like a conservative branch.

Like fundamentalists. People that belong to it are not necessarily "rabbis". But the men are not allowed to touch a woman's hand.

A rabbi could be the rabbi of a very hip, ultra-liberal Reform community who has no beard and drives a Prius on Saturday mornings.

[Maraya1969]

156. Heck I am Buddhist and a I met a Rabbi on a dating site who wanted to go out

with me. I don't think it's going to happen because I got back with my x but I would have gone out with him.

There are crazy fundy Christians, crazy fundy Muslim and crazy fundy Jews. They are not representative of their religion. They are just bat shit crazy nuts and I think it is racist to label an entire religion after a few bat shit crazy nuts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Don't Think An Orthodox Jew Is Allowed To Touch A Woman Other Than His Wife

eom

[stellanoir]

59. Yup that is true.

[madeline_con]

124. Orthodox= too good to touch infidels, women or other unclean

things?

My ignorance is such a problem sometimes. Enlighten me.

[freedom fighter jh]

171. Not "too good."

Someone said it above. It has to do with "uncleanliness," which is related to menstruation, as well as with modesty in sexual matters. Most women are assumed to be unclean all the time. If a woman is not Orthodox, she will not go through ritual cleansing after menstruation, and therefore is unclean all the time. Even if she is Orthodox, she is assumed to be unclean because she could be menstruating, or may not have cleansed herself afterward. Of course there is an exception for her husband, because he has to have some idea of when she is clean so that they can, you know.

There is an exception within a family. The touching rule is a protection to ensure that there is no real union during a time of uncleanliess. If there is no chance of that anyway, it does not apply. There is no restriction against a man touching his daughter, sister, or mother. In general, the rule does not apply to children, because they are not sexual.

[cali]

38. LOL.

this thread really is funny.

[Zandor]

54. Check out your source.

Sad that people so desperately want to believe this man is not an anti-Semite, they will post his propaganda.

[peacetalksforall]

91. Why don't you use a little more reason - how is everyone supposed

to know the intra-Rabbi squabbles. We know there are people in Israel who pursue peace, why not in this country. Why not educate instead of attack. This is getting to be a very sick thread. It is full of vitriol. There is no recognition of people who want peace. There is no honor given. This now appears to be a campaign to make sure no one on DU is hurting Israel. This campaign appears to be an effort to insult fellow DUers. What aggression. Way over board. Just like the threads yesterday.

[Zandor]

95. I questioned the source

and rightfully so.

These Rabbis are being used in Ahmadinejad's propaganda games.

[roguevalley]

106. that is the same rationale that bush uses not to do diplomacy.

you might 'reward' the 'bad guys' if you talk to them. fuck that. talk to everyone. it is the more pleasant alternative to bombing their innocent people.

[Freeusfromthechurch]

178. I second that roguevalley EOM

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Nothing Wrong With Working For Peace...

I think some folks are pointing out that those rabbis oppose the creation of the state of Israel on religious grounds ,Israel can't be established until the Messiah comes back, and they are not in the mainstream of Jewish thought...

It would be like saying George Herbert Walker Bush loved black people because he put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court...

[piesRsquare]

158. These Rabbis are NOT "pursuing peace"!

These people are anti-Zionist because of their own right-wing, medieval religious agenda!

They are NO BETTER than the fundamentalist Christians that everyone here on DU despise so much!

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frankf]

198. It doesn't really look like he is does he?

Sounds like he is against the state of Israel and not against Jews - which means he is not what people call an "anti semite". The subject of this thread is how this HASNT been reported in the mainstream media so complaining about it's source is a bit ironic. You could also question it if there were no pictures but they are in glorious technocolor.

[Mass]

2. Actually reported in Haaretz with context.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906911.html

Neturei Karta welcomes Ahmadinejad
By Anshel Pfeffer

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad received a friendly welcome to New York from one Jewish organization: Representatives of Neturei Karta, the tiny anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox sect, came to meet him and congratulate him on coming to the city.

This was the Neturei Karta delegation's third meeting with Ahmadinejad. Their previous meeting took place during his Holocaust denial conference in Tehran last year. Their participation in that event drew harsh reactions, and some delegates were later ostracized in the ultra-Orthodox community.
However, that failed to discourage at least some Neturei Karta members.

A spokesman for the anti-Zionists, David Weiss, said in a statement: "The Iranian president is a deeply religious man, who is committed to world peace based on mutual respect, decency and dialogue. Unfortunately, there are Jewish people today who seem to think that the appropriate Jewish response to enemies real and imagined is aggression, calls for violence, and attempts to drag other countries onto the warpath."

So, the Iranian government is as good as the Bush administration at PR? We already knew that.

[2rth2pwr]

7. Are they a pacifist group?

Sounds like it.

[Mass]

10. Nope - They are a group that believes that Israel is not in this world and has

opposed the creation of the state of Israel on purely religious grounds.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. They Are Waiting For The Messiah To Establish The Jewish State

eom

[madeline_con]

125. Well, let me just say they have a very good point.

Many Biblical scholars would agree.

And, since the Bible says Jerusalem will descend from the heavens, they need to stop freaking out over that, while they're at it.

I'll leave Zionists out of this post. Don't get me started...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. How have Iranian Jews been fairing under Ahmadinejad?

[Holly_Hobby]

5. I don't know. Do you? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No.

Seems relevant to the current discussion though.

[Bonobo]

14. Here you go.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semiti...

" Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry."

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

68. Gobbledy gook

Israel is a country like other countries not some super entity that controls the U.S. or is on a mission to destroy the world. Like other countries it has some profoundly objectionable polices: The occupation and oppression of Palestinians being foremost among them. Dozens of countries have done continue to do terrible things. Israel doesn't even stand out terribly in that group. It's simply one of many.

[LeftishBrit]

188. Very true!

[madeline_con]

126. I was under the impression that Zionist beliefs and those

self-proclaimed "Christians" who support it were behind the atrocities visited upon innocent Palestinians by the Israeli government.

Faith is not secondary enough, apparently. It's all based on some crazy mythology that both groups are brainwashed by. Come on, Rapture!

[piesRsquare]

160. Please do some research on "Practical Zionism"...

...sometimes referred to as "Modern Zionism".

The "Christian Zionists" and the bozos who cause problems in the territories are NOT modern Zionists.

The original Zionist doctrine (the whole "Euphrates or Tigris or whatever to the sea" crap) essentially went up the smoke-stack during World War II.

Chassidic Jews, "Modern" (yeah, right) Orthodox Jews (of the "settler variety") and "Christian Zionists" are the only Jews clinging to the biblical stuff.

I am a Zionist. I believe in and support the (continued) existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish State and homeland, with a united Jerusalem as its capitol.

I also believe in and support the (foundation of the) political platform of the (new) Kadima party, which is committed to establishing permanent borders for Israel in 2010, and involves ceding (all of Gaza and) over 90% of the territory in what is currently identified as the "West Bank" for the establishment of a Palestinian State.

Kadima is currently the ruling party in Israel, having won 63% of the vote (I believe that was the percentage) in the last election. Problem is, you wouldn't know it, seeing as how Olmert is royally fucking everything up and his popularity among Israelis is now at 3% (and no, that's not a typo--that's THREE PERCENT).

[rosesaylavee]

170. Thanks for the info

Hadn't heard about this before...

And pies are round, btw. Welcome to DU!

[LeftishBrit]

192. Not really...

Oppression of Palestinians is based on two things: self-interest and fear (with innocent Palestinians being easily lumped with terrorist groups). Especially the latter. Fear is one of the most powerful and corrupting emotions that humans have; and Israelis are as subject to it as anyone else, and have been at times given reason for it.

Religion plays only a relatively small role in this conflict.

[JackRiddler]

111. Was there anything to the spying charges? n/t

[Emillereid]

148. Now there's an unbiased source for ya'

[frankf]

199. Thats just a big paste there

Its not really a discussion is it - I would be debating with the probably biased web site you copied from.

for example you quote "At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago". Well, they execute a couple of hundred people a year (isnt execution so barbaric!) so is it as much as it seems especially since you say "Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. About As Well As African Americans In The Jim Crow South

Like other religious minorities in Iran Jews suffer from discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. According to the U.S. Department of State, Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.<33>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

[cali]

34. Jews and other religious minorities are officially discriminated against

in Iran.

[liberation]

130. So does Israel...

Muslim citizens in Israel are 2nd class citizens in their own land.

Try being an openly gay African American atheist in the deep South and see how well you fare. Heck in some parts of the deep South up to recently there were 2 sports: Football and burning cross planting. Or if you reeeeally want to feel the love, try growing up in an Indian reservation with average infant mortality rates which rival some parts of Africa.

Our very own vice president was pushing on the 80s to label Mandela as a terrorist for having the gall to fight Apartheid.

Shit smells every where.


Iran's policies suck, however we lack most of the moral high ground to have the balls to accuse other people. Saying "ooops, sorry" or making moving pictures as a sort of mea culpa, with plenty of artistic licence to boot, only works if you have the psyche of a 12 yr old. Which judging by a lot of people I interact with in this country seems about right.

We have a looooong way to go to chew what's on our own plate before we focus the blame on other people's eating habits....

The funny thing is that Iran sucks, mostly because it is a theocracy. Which is the wet dream of most conservative Christians in this country if they were left on their own devices. Yet the Right goes apeshit antagonizing anything and everything Iran. The cognitive dissonance the past week has been deafening.

[Dorian Gray]

80. Most of the Jewish in Iran

left ages ago. I believe there are about 25,000-30,000 currently living in Iran, though not sure about the numbers. And they are treated as second class citizens.

Here is one article about it:

http://www.forward.com/articles/iranian-jews-reject-out... /

And Wikipedia has an interesting history of Persian Jews.

[madrchsod]

25. three links that may help you to form an opinion

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semiti...
Jews of Iran

http://iranfreedomproject.blogspot.com/2006/07/irans-je...
Iran Freedom Project: 'Iran's Jews don't recognize Israel' - Jerusalem Post

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5367892.stm
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran's proud but discreet Jews

there are other links on both sides of the issue..

[Zandor]

49. Jews in Iran

Jews in Iran have constitutional rights equal to other Iranians, although they may not hold government jobs or become army officers. They have freedom of religion, but may not proselytize. Jews have a representative in parliament; this person is legally obligated to support Iran's foreign policy and anti-Zionist position. Jews, along with other Iranian citizens, can be criminally prosecuted and subject to the death penalty for supporting Israel. After the Islamic revolution in 1979, several Jews were executed for Zionism. In 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was executed without charge. In 2000, 13 Jews including religious leaders in Shiraz were accused and imprisioned for spying for Israel, but were released after an international outcry...

Iran's official government-controlled media published the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in 1994 and 1999. It is unclear whether Jews stay in Iran because they are happy and comfortable there or because they are elderly and speak only Persian. Most pre-revolutionary Jewish schools and synagogues have closed. Jewish children still attend Jewish schools where Hebrew and religious studies are taught, but Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslim ones, the curricula are government-supervised, and the Jewish Sabbath is no longer recognized. Jews may use passports and visas to leave Iran, but those who apply must do so to a special bureau and are placed under surveillance. Whole families may not leave Iran together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran#Jewis...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Most Jews With Means Split...

eom

[Zandor]

63. Quiet, you're upsetting those

desperately wanting to believe otherwise.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Yeah, My Fiance From The Phillipines Worked For One In L A

Jews fared better in Muslim lands than they did in most of Christendom but they were never allowed , to the best of my knowledge, to have the same rights that Muslims have...

A funny story... When I was in grad school I had many Muslim friends...I had one from Morrocco...He confided in me that his mom was a Jewish convert but asked me not to tell the other Muslim grad students...

That being said... I come from a mixed background and try not to see religion , color, or sexual orientation... I just see people and try to find common ground with them...

[peacetalksforall]

94. Ridiculous

[kineneb]

116. most people with means split, like my parents.

since most people of means also backed the Shah, leaving was a healthy thing to do.

[robinlynne]

70. As far as I know, they all moved to los angeles.

[kineneb]

117. that's Tehrangeles, please :-)

probably second largest population of Iranians (of any faith) is in So.Cal. My Aunt is one of them.

[Emit]

155. I read recently that Iran's Jewish population is second largest in the ME, after Israel

And that prior to the Islamic revolution of 1979, it was double that.

I also came across this article a while back:

Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians Recognized by Government; Baha'is Not (Iran)
Dec 4, 2003
San Francisco Chronicle
On December 4, 2003 the San Francisco Chronicle reported, "Among its population of 70 million, Iran has about 25,000 Jews, 100,000 Christians and 60,000 adherents of Zoroastrianism, which was the religion of the Persian Empire before the Muslim conquest in the seventh century...Despite their small numbers, the three groups -- 'recognized minority religions' under the 1979 constitution -- are guaranteed five seats in the 290-member parliament. Jews and Zoroastrians get one seat each, Armenian Christians two, and Chaldean and Assyrian Catholics share one seat. They have their own schools, as well as churches, synagogues and temples. Unlike Iran's Muslims, men and women of these minority faiths are permitted to dance together in their clubs and to serve liquor -- as long as no Muslims are admitted to the premises... The Baha'is, Iran's largest religious minority, continue to face unapologetic persecution. A 19th century offshoot of Shiite Islam, the Baha'i faith is viewed as apostasy by the Shiite establishment. The estimated 300,000 Baha'is in Iran are denied permission to worship, hold office or carry out other communal affairs publicly or privately. They are banned from university education, they are denied most business and professional licenses, and their property is often confiscated."

Cited here: http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=5416&print

Original/Full Story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/...

[PDenton]

180. unfortunately the creation of Israel

created very bitter attitudes towards Jews all over the Middle East. In many cases Israel, while not supporting these attitudes, at least welcomed the influx of immigrants.

Islam, like Christianity, has a history of anti-Semitism. Jews in both Christian and Muslim countries often were forced to live in ghettoes, wear special clothing, and always reminded of their inferior status (in Muslim countries, this happened to Christians as well- the reverse, Muslims in European countries was almost unknown). In some medieval Muslim societies, however, they were allowed to advance socially somewhat. It was not until the late Reneissance and Enlightenment periods in Europe that Jews would achieve similar status there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. wow, where did this news go?

[snappyturtle]

13. Wouldn't you like to know. I doubt we'll see this presented by MSM.

It gives me hope to see different sides conversing with respectful recognition. This is a far cry from the reception Ahmadinejad received from the president of Columbia University! It gives me hope.

[Marrah_G]

72. It's not what you think

Check the source.

[Supersedeas]

97. stovepiped into the WH propoganda grinder

[helderheid]

9. Wow!

[nashville_brook]

11. well, that's interesting.

[cali]

43. I suggest reading the entire thread for just a wee bit

of perspecive: In a nutshell, these are ultra fundies who share a common interest with Ahmadinejad in seeing an end to Israel. He uses them for that purpose.

[Mass]

15. 11 recommends for that - Why?

It is akin to Bush's PR operation "Mission accomplished". "I meet with a few rabbis, so I am not antisemitic".

Some of you may remember that some Jewish people in Germany tried to deal with Hitler as well, so I guess he was not antisemitic either.

[peacetalksforall]

17. This is a beautiful moment for me. This is a peace step. This is

a learning experience - to hear Rabbis say there is a difference between being Jewish and being a Zionist. For Ahmadinejad to go there and shake hands.

I am very happy that you posted this. It is a wonderful gift to me.

I wish we could trumpet this story to every person in this country.

Jews have lived in Iran peacefully for long periods of time.

There are tolerant people everywhere who can say brother.

But, our brains are very washed.

Thank you. Thank you. I am elated.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. "Jews have lived in Iran peacefully for long periods of time."

Kind of like the way African Americans lived in the south between the end of the Civil War and the civil rights era...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Or now in Jena.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Ha

As long as Jews in Muslim lands and African Americans in the Jim Crow South kept their "heads down" they were ok...

That's the lesson...

[mikelgb]

87. ding

[LittleClarkie]

133. Well, he didn't say this this period of time was included in one of those long periods

so perhaps we're just not talking about right this minute.

[cali]

50. This is pure propaganda

Let me make it simple"

Jewish fundies want an end to Israel unitl the Messiah comes. Ahmadinejad wants an end to Israel. Result: photo op and propaaganda.

[riderinthestorm]

52. I don't agree Higher Class.

This is PR of the worst kind, showing people whose common cause is to eradicate Israel. I'm sorry you don't recognize it for what it is.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madeline_con]

128. Well, now that you put it THAT way.

It's kind of a birds of a feather photo op?

[peacetalksforall]

66. I didn't know about this group's severe break with their own brothers.

This is disappointing to learn.

More links have to be fixed.

As to Jews living in Iran - there is history there - don't knock it. It wasn't all just under the Shah. There are minority religions in many countries.

I think relating my comment to Black-Americans living in the south is a reach.

If you don't believe that there are minority religions living safely under majority religions, give it a click.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. "f you don't believe that there are minority religions living safely under majority religions, give

it a click"


It's very rare and a relatively recent phemomenon...

[riderinthestorm]

77. There's a saying by Ben Franklin

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Yes, there is a history of Jews living in Muslim lands, even perhaps "safely", but not with any real freedom or rights.

[sabra]

18. They belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

With their distinctive hats, beards and side locks, these men may, to the untrained eye, look like any other Orthodox believers in Jerusalem or New York. But the Jews who went to Tehran are different.

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a Hasidic sect of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

...

The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.

...

Neturei Karta's views are regarded with abhorrence by most other Orthodox Jews, according to Rabbi Jeremy Rosen of the Yakar centre in London.

[cali]

19. LOL! People here complain about the MSM and yet have

no hesitation about posting pure propaganda. Context is important.

The reason he met with them and they with him, is simple: Their most profound interests intersect. This tiny sect wants to see an end to Israel. Ahmadinejad wants to see an end to Israel. And it's great propaganda for Ahmadinejad to seen with Jews. This group even attended the Holocaust Denial Conference in Tehran with David Duke and other luminaries of the Holocaust Denial World. (They don't actually deny the Holocaust. They're just batshit crazy waiting for the Messiah types.)

You know, it took me all of five minutes to do a little research. Try not accepting propaganda at face value next time.

Neturei Karta (Aramaic: נטורי קרתא, "Guardians of the City") is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, who oppose Zionism and call for a peaceful dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.<1> They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Bet Shemesh (near Jerusalem), and Bnei Brak. Others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

[Mass]

22. I am afraid some DUers show their profound ignorance in this thread.

It is also amusing that the WH website would be seen as total propaganda, but the Iranian president website would be taken without any questioning.

[Bonobo]

42. Imagine the ignorance in the rest of the US. OMG!

[Bonobo]

29. Thanks.

[Marrah_G]

37. makes me sick

DU is becoming more like the twilight zone by the hour.

[piesRsquare]

162. These same Haredi in Jerusalem

are notorious in Israel for flinging everything from spoiled food to feces at non-Haredi visitors to "their" area of town. Yeah, *tourists*.

The first time I travelled to Israel, I went with a youth group (I was a teenager). We visited Me'ah Sharim (Haredi area) as a group. Very, very hot summer afternoon, and we girls were sweltering under the long dresses and long sleeves we had to wear while in that vicinity. The boys found rest and shade, sitting on the front step of a Yeshiva. When two of the girls did the same, one of the teachers came charging out of the building, screaming at them in Yiddish, shooing them off the steps. No women on the steps of the Yeshiva!! So we got to stand.

We got to stand, in full view of a group of kindergarten-aged Haredim Yeshiva boys on a balcony who were spitting on us. For no less than 15 minutes, they spat at us. Oh--except for when one of the girls got (gasp) an ITCH on her knee, and pulled up her skirt slightly to scratch it, an elderly woman whacked the girl's legs with her cane and bitched her out in Yiddish.

Oh, what a lovely afternoon that was! At least it was educational.

Here's a tid-bit y'all might enjoy even more: These Chassidic/Haredi men do not--and I mean DO NOT--like to come into contact with women. These fellows are SO UPTIGHT about it, they make love to their wives through a hole in a sheet!

That's right! A hole is cut in a sheet--just "big" enough for Mr. Schlonger to fit through--and the man lays the sheet over his wife and Mr. Schlonger goes through "the hole" while the rest of his body doesn't make contact with her body!

How these guys perform circumcision is repulsive.

Yeah, REAL PROGRESSIVE these guys! Not!

[Bonobo]

23. I don't mean to rain on the parade here, but...

Please consider that there are many, many different Jewish groups and some are, ahem, a little less "mainstream" than others.
If this was a group of ultra-orthodox whackos who STILL oppose the creation of Israel based on their interpretation of the Torah, well... IF Ahmadenijad met with them specifcally BECAUSE they are anti-zionists, it is not exactly the same as seeking brotherhood with the mass of World Jewry.

[blondeatlast]

27. You do know anti-Zionist means anti-Israel, don't you? He met with a group that

supports his own views--how open-minded of him.

And just for the record, I absolutely, 100% support a Palestinian state AND Israel.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

41. Trying to keep an open mind here, but a direct quote contradicts what you are quoting, below:

"The rabbis carried a placard which read, "I am Jewish not a Zionist.""

I apologize for my ingnorance regarding my post above, but am sincerely wanting clarification--how can one be what one visibly proclaims one is not?

[Poll_Blind]

46. "Jewish" is a religion, an ethnicity, a culture. Zionism is an idea some believe. n/t

PB

[robinlynne]

74. wow. if you think jews are all zionists, you need to read, and a lot.

[blondeatlast]

78. It comes directly from the OP. I know all Jews are not Zionists, but

read the OP again, and then my post.

It's a direct contradiction.

Edit: My bad--I'm interpreting both the quote Poll Blind referenced (from Lithos) and the OP, which seem to contradict each other.

[robinlynne]

84. no contradiction. My whole family is jewish and I have never even met a zionist.

kind of like thinking all white people belong to the kkk.

[Mass]

85. I guess is that the contradiction pointed to is between

Even Neturei Karta, the fringe extremist group are Zionists

in post 28

and the "I am Jewish non a Zionist" quote in the OP article...

I would guess that the poster is asking if the first statement, as stated somewhere else on DU, is an accurate description of the group.

[robinlynne]

98. sounds like he is saying jews are zionists.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Depends On Your Definition Of Zionism

If Zionism is simply defined as the belief that Jews should have their own national homeland than I suspect large majorities of American Jews and non-Jews share that belief...

[piesRsquare]

166. Congratulations...

You just discovered the definition of "Modern Zionism", sometimes referred to as "Practical Zionism". I wrote a smidgen about it in another post somewhere on this thread (sorry--don't know the number of the post...it's around here somewhere!)

[truedelphi]

108. I find it hard to believe that your excellent post is still up

I beleive what you say is true - but thought this thought was not the DU party line

[DemocratSinceBirth]

153. Zionism Is Simply The Belief That Jews Should Have Their Own Homeland

I have met few people in the States , Jew or Gentile, who didn't believe that.

Have you met many people in the States who didn't believe Jews should have their own homeland?

[LeftishBrit]

194. I think the chances are that you have met some Zionists...

in the sense of people who think Israel should continue to exist. Most Jews and many non-Jews do think so. Not all Zionists support the Likud, the Occupation, or everything that Israel has ever done.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

90. Thanks--I honestly was confused, and admittedly pretty ignorant. nt

[Lithos]

197. You are correct

I was intentionally playing up the definition. I did so mostly because people were throwing around many definitions of what Zionism without understanding it's evolution and historical, cultural and modern usages. Your own citation of my post is guilty of this as you mixed interpretations from 1967 with today's modern usage. Zionism today while just as varied as 1967, the gestalt is completely different.

By pure definition, NK are Zionists as they support the notion of a return of Israel. Their main issue with modern Israel is the current state's establishment did not follow as a result of the Messiah's return. It is ironic and extremely mind-twisting that they would toast at Passover seder "Next Year in Jerusalem" while at the same time condone the actions of a petty man who besides denying the Holocaust is using his podium to threaten the modern state of Israel in a way that would destroy it and prevent this return. Yes, I know there is a technical difference between their views of today's Israel and what they think of a future Israel, in the end, there is no difference in that they support the idea of Israel reborn and that they too desire a Jewish Israel.

Personally, I wonder why people cherry pick one item about the NK without stopping to consider the whole. The sectarian beliefs of the NK are generally extremely homophobic (advocating violence), bigoted (not only towards women, but also including believe it or not, forms of holocaust denial where "Jews" were complicit), and generally at violent odds with most of modern society and with modern Jewish theology (even more so when you realize a sizable number of Jews are secular). When raised up as they are as an example of "Jews" who are against Zionism, it makes me wonder if people realize just how offensive this is.

[cali]

110. if you don't think that the majority

of jews and in fact the majority of Americans are zionists, you have a lot of reading to do. i'm not jewish, and i support isreal's existence. as far as i understand it, that makes me a zionist. granted i oppose the occupation and oppression of the palestinian people, and believe that israel should withdraw from the west bank, etc, but i don't want to see israel disappear as a nation.

[madeline_con]

129. Read Herzl

Then you'll know what "Zionism really means".

[PDenton]

182. Zionism in the usual sense

refers to the secular movement supporting a Jewish state in formerly-British Palestine. This is the meaning that Arab critics usually use when they talk about "Zionism".

In the religious sense, alot of religious Jews could be considered "Zionists", since the belief that the Messiah will return and create a modern Jewish state is traditional in Judaism (hence the saying "Next year in Jerusalem"). This is not the usual meaning of Zionism.