Ok, screw this. Someone please explain to me how Petraus is a traitor or committed treason, please

[Harper_is_Bush]

I only pointed out that the moveon ad accused him of something that is equatable to treason. In a time of war, if you "betray" your nation you are being treasonous/traitorous.

Betraus...er...Patraus is shilling for Bush, yes. I agree.

Is he being treasonous? A traitor?

If you think so, please refrain from attacking me personally and tell me what your reasoning is.

thx.

[ixion]

1. well, point A would be we are not tecnically at 'war'

we have, however, illegally invaded a sovereign nation and are currently an occupying power amongst a hostile populace.

So, IMO, yeah, anyone who takes part in that, especially a general, is at the very least guilty of war crimes.

[Harper_is_Bush]

8. Ok, but a "war" is being waged, and US troops are in the middle of it.

And your "war crimes" point is not relavent to the topic.

[ixion]

18. war crimes irrelevant? I hardly think so...

These crimes are being committed in your name, and with your tax dollars. I would think you'd care more about that.

As for what we started: It's more of a turkey shoot than a 'war'. That is, we kill far more of their citizens than they kill of our soldiers. The imbalance is in the extreme. That's not really a war. More like mass murder, IMO.

[SlowDownFast]

44. "...crimes are being committed in your name...

...and with your tax dollars."

Not true.

Harper_is_Canadian.

[ixion]

68. d'oh!

:rofl:

[ProudDad]

56. Not a war, an illegal occupation...

and crimes according to the Geneva Conventions and international law.

So no, he's not a traitor, he's an international terrorist and criminal along with his big boss -- cheney/bush...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

2. He will not be among the fired Generals.

MKJ

[blogslut]

3. If you equate betrayal with treason, then yes

I certainly believe he is betraying his country by lying about how the war is going and promoting the idea that we can somehow win a war we weren't supposed to wage in the first place.

As far as the people I believe should be up on treason charges, he is not one of them, or at least, not the first on my list.

[0007]

9. I'll second that!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

100. He perpetuates the fraud committed by this administration against the American people.

If the commission of fraud by elected representatives against their own people is considered "treason", this general is a co-conspirator.

I suppose the question that should be posed is whether or not the intentional misrepresentation of facts by the executive branch to an entire nation in order to FORCE a profiteering war is within the realm of "treason".

Does an intentional and organized plan to deceive hundreds of millions of people to sacrifice what they would otherwise NOT sacrifice, in contradiction of the laws of the nation's laws, amount to treason?

Is treason an INTENTIONAL effort to avoid/bypass/ignore the U.S. Constitution and laws attached thereto?

Does treason include multi-national corporations attempting to gain power over this nation,...and, hence, "MAKE THE RULES", without regard to democratic institutions and human rights and laws of the land?

[Kagemusha]

4. Yeah, like I said in the other thread, it's = to being called a Benedict Arnold

And certainly people are pushing the betrayal angle as correct.

But I'll put it bluntly. They're using the word "betray" because Petraeus willingly came to Washington, feted like a conquering Roman general, as he politically massaged Congress with claims of noble progress and urging the civilians of Congress to support his warfighting for another six months. He came in as a political agent of the administration, and departed as a successful and triumphant political agent of the administration. The facts are nowhere near as rosy as he presented, but he came in, bamboozled the Congress, did his job, and went back to Iraq.

[Occulus]

86. It's called a "dictionary definition"

and each and every last person who looks up the word in the dictionary will find there are multiple meanings of the word "betray".

Somehow, the people who are chastising MoveOn always seem to neglect to mention that little fact.

[pampango]

90. Petraeus did come to Washington "willingly" but Congress required

him to do it, as I understand, so it's not like it was his idea.

If he really believes that the "surge" is working as a military tactic, then he is not "lying", even if he is dead wrong. And if he is wrong about something as important as that, he is a very bad general. There have been bad generals throughout history who did not "betray" their citizens. He was honest, or politically savvy enough, to admit that he didn't know if the "surge" was making the US safer, which I imagine made Bush cringe.

Moveon's ad was a great success for the organization, lots of publicity, contributions and new members. In the long run ('08 elections) I think it will be great for the Democratic party as many repubs will be defeated as a result of their votes on antiwar legislation. In the short run I think the ads probably helped the GOP solidify their hold on wavering senators in the Webb amendment vote by exaggerating the controversy generated by the ad and presenting a vote for Webb as a vote for Moveon.

If the ad had appeared a day or two after Petraeus' testimony and dealt with its content, it would not appeared to be a personal attack on the guy before he even testified, but as a refutation of what he had said. It may not have been as great a success as it was, but then again, maybe it would have been more effective to refute his testimony after the fact than to discredit before it was given.

[AuntPatsy]

5. Ask those that gave him the name, those that worked underneath him and wore the uniform.

[EFerrari]

6. He told the American press that weather balloon stations

were mobile weapons labs when he knew better.

He lied to Congress when he said he wasn't arming tribals. He is.

He has been linked in the NYTs to kickbacks from arms sales.

And that's just the sh!t we know.

Please. He's kissing Bush @ss. No real boy scout would do that.

[flyarm]

83. other better men have quit rather than to smear their own name or reputation!

or to betray their soldiers or their oath.

Petraeus is a liar at the least..if you want to call him a traitor go to it..

i will only repeat what his soldiers have called him..first colonel betrayus..and now general betrayus!

he has betrayed his oath..he has betrayed this nation, and he has betrayed his soldiers..

the courts would have to decide if he is a traitor..or committed treason.

i am not qualified..but i sure as hell will hold onto my free speech as long as we have a small slice of it left..and i will call it as i see it..this man is a liar..he has not followed his duty to his oath..and he has politicized his military position..at the price of our nation and our soldiers.

that is betrayal...at the least..

he has disgraced himself..all move on and most of us have done is report it.

If he had told the truth..he would have none of this attached to himself...he brought this upon himself...because he allowed himself to be used by this white house..others have resigned rather than do this to their own oath and reputation..a reputable person with real credibility would resign as well!

fly

[The Vinyl Ripper]

7. You don't think deliberately causing the useless deaths of more American troops

Is not a betrayal?

Because that is the ultimate result of Petraeus' false testimony.

[BlooInBloo]

10. And of course it's part of the rules of your game that nothing counts...

... unless there's video tape of him explicitly telling OBL the locations of our troop deployments.

What a fun game.

[EFerrari]

11. Harper, this is one of the things that people aren't understanding.

This administration has deeply corrupted the leadership in the Pentagon. They had to pay in some way to play.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1864799&mesg_id=1864924

[ProudDad]

57. "They had to pay in some way to play"

They always have. That's the S.O.P. in the military.

The whole damn ball of wax is kiss up, kick down...

you don't get to be general without kissing a lot of ass.

You don't get to be 4 stars without kissing a lot of political ass...

[EFerrari]

63. But in a different time, you could do that without actually

collaborating with this degree of criminality. :shrug:

[ProudDad]

65. True, they weren't this blatent

until Vietnam...



Weeeellll, there was that nutjob MacArthur...but he thought he was GOD...

[EFerrari]

93. I was too young to pay attention. Is that how it went down?

It was surprising, once I started counting, how many of these @ssholes have bent over for BushCo -- and my grandaddy was a general in Central America, lol, so it must be bad if it shocks ME.

:)

[Hissyspit]

12. It said "OR General Betray Us?" It didn't say he did betray us.

The question mark was actually pretty important.

This is mainly what he was accused of in the ad:
"General Petraeus is a military man constantly at war with the facts." Also "cooking the books."

[SlowDownFast]

13. Still at it, eh?

:popcorn:

[Harper_is_Bush]

16. Still at what?

[TankLV]

73. I'll spell it out for ya - a CANADIAN poster who goes from thread to thread criticizing us DEMS

for daring to be "mean" to the repukes.

Always the same line.

We got your number...

[Posteritatis]

91. I wasn't aware Canadian posters are being held to different standards here? (nt)

[LittleClarkie]

101. Blame Canada

Some people are just paranoid.

Not that you people aren't too damn quiet up there.

[CatWoman]

80. I was about to say the same thing

:eyes:

[saltpoint]

14. His shilling for Bush is transgression enough, given the demonstrable

failure Bush has visited on the Middle East, with wide and deep repercussions for our foreign policy -- transgression enough without the legal formulation of "traitor" or "betrayal" as definitional supports.

I've seen generals come and go in the national spotlight. Now and again they are elected to public office.

This general's IQ seems extraordinarily high but his blind spot has eclipsed the rest of his brain, and he sounds to me like a common shill.

[DefenseLawyer]

15. You are framing the debate

to fit your point rather than the facts. They didn't call him a traitor, they asked whether he betrayed us. If one knowingly lied or prevaricated about the situation in Iraq to Congress for political reasons, one might argue that that is a betrayal. You are the one resorting to hyperbole to attack anyone who dare question the infallible and pure military.

[Harper_is_Bush]

20. Not at all. Most people will not differenciate between actions that "betray" and those that are

treasonous.

Your disseminating may be valid, but you're missing the POINT that there is a larger audience that is not as smart as you.

[DefenseLawyer]

32. Actually, I think most people will

and do differentiate. Treason implies that Petraeus was acting against the interests of the nation on behalf of a foreign power or in order to undermine the government. I don't think anyone could honestly read the Moveon ad and conclude that they made that accusation. A soldier that gets drunk and falls asleep at his post could be said to have betrayed our country, it wouldn't mean he was a traitor.

[Occulus]

84. Horseshit, Harper!

And here's the proof.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/betray

1 : to lead astray; especially : SEDUCE
2 : to deliver to an enemy by treachery
3 : to fail or desert especially in time of need <betrayed his family>
4 a : to reveal unintentionally <betray one's true feelings> b : SHOW, INDICATE c : to disclose in violation of confidence <betray a secret>
intransitive verb : to prove false

Read much? No? Let's try again:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/betray

be·tray (b-tr)
tr.v. be·trayed, be·tray·ing, be·trays
1.
a. To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
b. To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
2. To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
3. To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
4. To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
5. To reveal against one's desire or will.
6. To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.

CAN 'betray' mean 'commit treason'? Yes. Did it in MoveOn's context? HELL NO! They meant the word in a very different context.

Betray != treason each time it is used. Learn your the English language and you'll learn that sometimes, words have multiple meanings depending upon their context.

[brentspeak]

27. I don't see how the OP is advocating an "infallible and pure military".

I'm not sure where you're getting that.

[DefenseLawyer]

39. There seems to be

as someone said earlier, a kind of "cult of the military" in this country, that dictates that any criticism of the military or of any soldier is automatically beyond the pale, that it is by definition outrageous and contemptible. I fail to see how the fact that Patraeus is in the Army has any bearing on whether he can be a legitimate target of criticism.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. That is, you know, one of the 14 warning signs of fascism. nt

[rwheeler31]

17. Do you think a military man should dictate policy?

George said wait for this guy. Look at his record.

[Harper_is_Bush]

42. How the fuck did you get that from my post?

No offense, but I'm getting tired of all the nonsensical bullshit responses.

[TankLV]

74. Then stop posting bullshit...

Go back to the tundra and take care of your OWN glass house...

[LittleClarkie]

102. He has a perfect right to post the same as anyone

Would you please stop with the anti-Canada thing, please.

And just because you disagree with him doesn't make what he posts bullshit.

[Harper_is_Bush]

107. Thankyou. There's quite a bit of the anti-Canada thing in this topic

Canadians are well-equiped to participate in a discussion of US policy, since much of the media we injest is US.

Those who adminished me by saying "this is FAMILY business!" are short-sighted at best.

[global1]

19. Just Checked The Definition For Betray......

1. to lead astray:SEDUCE; 2. to deliver to an enemy; 3. abandon; 4. to prove unfaitful to; 5. to reveal unintentionally.

I'm thinking that MoveOn was meaning definition #1.

Besides wasn't the text under the HEADLINE explanatory. Didn't it reinforce what MoveOn was getting at.

MoveOn was just using a play on words to get people to read the real message.

The Repugs had nothing going for them last week. MoveOn was the only target they had. They went after them with all the bullets in their holster. They were successful to the point that they even got Dems to back them up today. How sad.

If I was MoveOn - I wouldn't be all that upset with what the Repugs did today. What's the old saying - any publicity is good publicity. What the Repugs did was probably get more people to actually read MoveOn's message.

If I were MoveOn - I would really be upset with the Dems - and not just those that voted with the Repugs - but all of them. The Dems didn't do too much to quell this - stupid attack. If the show were on the other foot - the Repugs would have.

[The Wielding Truth]

24. dido

[BlooInBloo]

37. What does a rather pretty crooner have to do with this?

[PeaceNikki]

51. Oooo, I love her!!

:)

[Harper_is_Bush]

28. If you look at synomyms, it also means to "inform" or to be "disloyal".

It matters nothing that your #1 definition is what you think moveon meant.


The result is what matters, and the result is that it appears like they're calling him a traitor.

[ProudDad]

59. He's not a traitor to his handers

Just a traitor to the human race...

[Old and In the Way]

34. It got me to donate tonight......

Maybe MoveOn will do a "Democrats, why have you betrayed us?" ad. Then the Republicans can get another condemnation vote initiated and approved by the Democrats. Oh wait....

[BootinUp]

21. It was over the top. eom.

[EFerrari]

25. I thought so, too. And the more I think about it, the more I learn

and think through the consequences, the more wrong I think I was.

[Canuckistanian]

22. Betrayal does not equal treason

Where are you getting this from?

Read a dictionary!

[Capn Sunshine]

58. We know where it's coming from

Read THIS
if you care about what happened. personally , I'm sick of members at DU parroting rightwing media talking points day and night.

[Canuckistanian]

67. Thank you for the link!

That explains a LOT about the post and a LOT about the OP as well.

Thanks again.

[napi21]

23. If you found out your wife/husband was cheating on you, would you

consider that betrayal or treason? You're playing symantics here. IMO, the General betrayed the American people by siding with his boss in his report. Did he lie? Probably not, but he didn't tell the whole truth either.

Remember it was Shrub who said "Give us till Sept. I will listen to General Petreaus' report", but THEN the WH told, strongly suggested, or whatever adjective you want to use, what their position is and the General KNEW if he said anything different from the WH opinion, he'd be GONE! Just the same as all the Generals before him were fired, or magically resigned.

THAT is not a traitor, but it sure is betrayal of the honesty the American people deserve!

[Harper_is_Bush]

30. This is not a situation of matrimony, it's active military. Betrayal of the military IS treason.

[napi21]

52. No it isn't. Yes he is active military, and he has a job to do as

the military leader in Iraq. I believe the General is doing the best job there that he knows how to do. I don't think he feels he's betraying his troops by persuing the mission. What I fault him for is not being completely honest with his answers to Congress. That's not treason, that's playing politics for his boss.

Treason 1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies

[Liberal In Texas]

26. I can hear the keyboards rattling as I rattle mine.

First: Is this a joke? Are you just trying to stir up shit?

Second: It was his own troops that gave him the name.

Third; With that name, what an obvious moniker.

Fourth: He became a political shill. The military, by their own charge does not involve themselves in politics. He crossed the Rubicon when he became political.

Fifth: He skewed the numbers. As pointed out in the MoveOn ad. In doing so, he lied. He betrayed his nation and his troops.

What else do you need?

[Psephos]

29. He's not and he didn't

He's a career military guy, in an essentially impossible situation. His years of service, good record, and willingness to take on a thankless job have earned him the right not to be used by either Bushco or us to score political points.

MoveOn did us no favor by "questioning his patriotism." Questioning his military tactics, ok. We need a more debate about just that. To those who aren't political animals (i.e., most voters) this can make Democrats look insincere when talking about supporting the military. In practical terms, it makes it harder for us to successfully press our anti-war arguments outside our own circles.

You will be pilloried for your post, Harper. But it's the right question to ask. Ideology clouds judgment when it becomes extreme. Perhaps the most signature symptom of an alcoholic is his/her angry denial that drinking is causing a problem.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

33. What he did was proscribe troops for many years to come in the

morass of the Mid East.

He has a plethora of honorable former colleagues who had the long view.

Yes, he's tool, I'll give you that.

MKJ

[WillyT]

31. Oh, I Think That's Easy !!!

Just like Bush, Cheney, et. al. betrayed us, so does Petraeus.

The war is a lie. It is therefore a crime.

The military is being destroyed, and Petraeus's boss knows it too.

General Fallon, Petraeus's boss, called him an "ass kissing chicken-shit".

Now when an ass kissing chicken-shit, whose own book on counter insurgency is being entirely violated for the purposes of supporting the lying commander-in-chief, to the detriment and deaths of hundreds more Americans and thousands more Iraqis...

How can it be anything less than betrayal?

:shrug:

[alittlelark]

62. Excellent concise answer!

:thumbsup:

[nashville_brook]

35. you don't cross the line btwn political and military -- only dictatorships do that

[SlowDownFast]

36. Funny you should ask...

because Keith Olbermann expounded upon this perfectly in his 'special commentary' tonight.

Here is the excerpt:

The line between the military and the civilian government is not to be crossed.

When Douglas MacArthur attempted to make policy for the United States in Korea half a century ago, President Truman moved quickly to fire him, even though Truman knew it meant his own political suicide, and the de-ification of a General who history suggests had begun to lose his mind.

When George McClellan tried to make policy for the Union in the Civil War, President Lincoln finally fired his chief General, even though he knew McClellan could galvanize political opposition - as he did... when McClellan ran as Lincoln's presidential opponent in 1864 and nearly defeated our greatest president.

Even when the conduit flowed the other way and Senator Joseph McCarthy tried to smear the Army because it wouldn't defer the service of one of McCarthy's staff aides, the entire civilian and Defense Department structures -- after four years of fearful servitude -- rose up against McCarthy and said "enough" and buried him.

The list is not endless -- but it is instructive.

Air Force General LeMay -- who broke with Kennedy over the Cuban Missile Crisis -- and was retired.

Army General Edwin Anderson Walker -- who started passing out John Birch Society leaflets to his soldiers.

Marine General Smedley Butler -- who revealed to Congress the makings of a plot to remove F-D-R as President -- and for merely being approached by the plotters, was phased out of the military hierarchy.

These careers were ended because the line between the military and the civilian is... not... to... be... crossed!

Mr. Bush, you had no right to order General Petraeus to become your front man.

And he obviously should have refused that order and resigned rather than ruin his military career.

The upshot is -- and contrary it is, to the Move-On advertisement -- he betrayed himself more than he did us.

But there has been in his actions a sort of reflexive courage, some twisted vision of duty at a time of crisis. That the man doesn't understand that serving officers cannot double as serving political ops, is not so much his fault as it is your good, exploitable, fortune.

Petraeus dishonored himself and betrayed the country by allowing himself to be used for political purposes. Simple as that.

Read the entire commentary - there's more:
http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/09/20/372833.aspx

[stillcool]

38. He lies...

and many more will die because he lies.
what does that fall under?

[Rex]

40. Not a traitor, just a liar. Maybe he will join the HUGE amount

of generals that have retired instead of work for George Jr. I give him a few more months before Bush tires of his General Puppet and moves on (get it) to another poor sucker.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. STRAWMAN ARGUMENT

YOU are saying that "In a time of war, if you "betray" your nation you are being treasonous/traitorous."

You are creating the definition, then require a response based on that definition. But the definition does not hold up.

Instead of looking at 'betray', let's look at 'treason'.

Treason: Violation of allegiance toward one's sovereign or country: especially, the betrayal of one's own country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid it's enemies.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

Obviously, it is possible for a military man to 'betray' us and still fall far short of being a traitor. He could be betraying his oath of service, to protect and defend the constitution; he could be betraying his duty to his position by lying, to promote the administration's agenda. Unless you consider the * administration the 'enemy', there is no indication that anything he has done is acting to aid the enemy.

Traitor? No. Betrayer? Yes, just like Powell, and Bremer and all the others who have gone over there and lied for the sake of Bushco.

[TahitiNut]

43. Try reading this ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1812385

It's not rocket science. :eyes:

[stillcool]

55. cool...

:thumbsup:

[noise]

45. Moveon.org doesn't have state power

so let us not pretend they were passing off a legal sentence. I would also note that political ads use exaggeration to score points.

[frogcycle]

46. oh for pity's sakes

it is a freaking play on words. he has had that nickname for years. I saw an article the other day where his troops called him Colonel Betray Us years ago. It goes with Admiral Fallon's comments - he is one of those people who "manages up" - making sure to tell the boss what he wants to hear and not lookin gout for those who work for him.

So Moveon used it and probably would have been smarter not to. Now lets give it a freaking rest.

[Raksha]

48. He betrayed US, the American people,

by lying on cue for the Bush administration. And the troops who originally gave him that name think he betrayed them too...he sold them out. He committed them to an open-ended occupation in which many of them will get killed, or have already.

And you're going on my Ignore list.

[Harper_is_Bush]

50. None of what you describe is a betrayal to the nation in terms of the war it's involved in. n/t

[ProudDad]

60. IT'S NOT A WAR

it's an illegal occupation of what was a formerly sovereign nation...

STOP CALLING IT A FREAKIN' WAR, PLEASE!!!!!

[TankLV]

76. That is only YOUR warped OPINION. And a badly researched one at that...

Don't you have anything better to do in CANADA that going around and criticizing AMERICANS when they are JUSTIFIABLY and CORRECTLY criticizing our WAR CRIMINALS?!?!

You know - the REPUKES who own this ILLEGAL WAR OF CHOICE BASED ON LIES lock stock and barrell?

And who your own PM lackey WAR CRIMINAL STRONGLY SUPPORTS!!!

[LittleClarkie]

103. DU is open to more than Americans, in case you hadn't noticed

Why do you have a problem with his Canadian-ness?

[Orsino]

96. Why not?

Are you insisting that he be convicted of treason before people call him a traitor?

[KoKo]

77. He Betrays his own troops and the people who pay him by blindly following the Bush Line...

By being Bush/Cheney's hand picked toady who will tell people and Congress things are just going swell in Iraq while the consensus of other Generals and Experts says the opposite.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

49. Petraeus is a betrayer

Because his purely political actions will lead to more useless deaths of American troops..

I predict you will not reply to this post.

[Macchendra]

53. If the glove doesn't fit, then you must... know that Petraus Will Betrayus.

Swear allegiance to all life on this planet and become an enemy to all divisions of it, because true loyalty means going beyond oneself, or ones territory.

[gatorboy]

54. Maybe not a traitor but apparently he's a very big cry baby.

After all, if he can't handle being called a name how can we trust him to stand up to terrorists? Republicans treat their leaders like children, running out to defend them every time they're teased. What big strong men they are. :eyes:

[Amonester]

64. "Republicans treat their leaders like children" = Good one (true one)

Many Republicans R not strong men, they're more like schoolyard bullies.

Their "logic" got stuck somewhere between the age of 5 (*) and 11 ("President" Cheney).

[pingzing58]

61. Petraeus does not know if our country is safer - so what is he doing?

The General when asked if the surge and sending 95 soldiers to their deaths every month on average in Iraq achieve our mission to fight al-qaeda in Iraq so that we won't fight them here he said:

Warner: “Does that make America safer?”

Petraeus: “Sir, I-I don’t know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted out in my own mind, uh-what I have focused on and been riveted on is how to accomplish the mission of the Multi-National Force Iraq.”

What mission? That's why his own soldiers called him "betrayus" because he's willing to betray his troops - by sending them into a loosing battle for the sake of his commander in chiefs desire for control of Iraqi oil and personal reputation.

That to me is clearly a betrayal of the U.S. citizens trust; a betrayal of the troops under his command; and a betrayal of his own integrity.

And I am using the word betray from the following definitions:

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

By sending innocent troops to their deaths for a war perpetrated by deception is to deliver our troops to the enemy!

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

The American people have been told that we are fighting the terrorists (al-qaeda in Iraq) but in all honesty even Allan Greenspan said the war was for oil is a betrayal of each U.S. citizens trust!

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

Reports have been made that Gen. Petraeus has political ambitions and that's why he revealed only what was favorable to the Bush plan of "stay the course." This ambition to success betrays his own ethics because he can't even tell congress under oath whether our country is safe or safer or not.

8. to seduce and desert.

American men and women are being seduced into the military by patriotism and the desire to defend our country - but for what cause? He participates in this seduction by supporting Bush's political sound byte - we're fighting al-qaeda who attacked us on 9-11 in Iraq.

It's clear to me: the moniker betrayus is appropriate.

[bridgit]

66. Petraeus is a military man...he only follows orders...

and the edicts of his commander in chief

[Canuckistanian]

70. Not at that level

Once you become an officer with that amount of responsibility, you're not merely a soldier who takes orders.

You are the leader of all the forces under your command. You are also their advocate. You're supposed to speak up and advise the CinC when you see major problems. If that gets you in trouble, so be it.

He was appointed to that position for clearly political reasons. There's no reason why he should be an advocate for the president, at the expense of the troops.

[JNelson6563]

69. Frankly I think giving

political concerns higher priority than the good of the country is traitorous. Whether it's a military leader or elected official.

What we have here is a military leader carrying water for the most traitorous misAdministration ever.

I don't think it could be more plain to see.

Julie

[spanone]

71. they are free to expres their opinion, sir.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

79. You have a problem with Canadians posting at DU?

Or you just don't like Canadians with whom you don't agree posting here? How about Canuckistan who posts regularly here? You want him to take his keyboard elsewhere? Or is he a "good Canadian?"

Respond to the content of his posts or ignore him, but stop slamming him based on his nationality. If you want DU to ban Canadians from posting, take it up with the mods. :argh:

[Orsino]

75. Lied to help * prolong an undeclared, useless and bloody war.

He's helping to sell his fellow soldiers into bondage and death, and abetting war crimes. He's an enabler for the biggest swindle in world history, and therefore a traitor.

[treestar]

78. It's doesn't have to be meant literally - it is just a play on words

And nothing the right wing does not deserve, as they call us "traitors" merely for opposing the war.

Not everything is meant to be taken literally. Look at the Bush/Mandela comment. They KNOW that. They just use it against us in an argument, pretending they are incapable of understanding allusion, metaphor or comparison.

[Xenotime]

81. If he had any decency, he would start bringing troops home.

[ThomWV]

82. His lies extend the war and more US troops die - Classic definition of treason.

An overt act against the nation. His is not some small like that has no effect on the nation. By providing inaccurate information to the nation he extends a war that should not be and more of the nation's citizens die because of it - he is actively working to the detriment of the nation. Treason is the right charge.

[Beelzebud]

85. You must get tired carrying all that water.

[moondust]

87. Allowed himself to be used as Bush's frontman.

Bush has no credibility. He has to find somebody else to sell his war. Who better than a man in uniform whom the public holds in high esteem and will not be inclined/allowed to doubt?

Most people know that George "My Way Or The Highway" Bush would never allow someone to take the world stage and report on the Iraq war unless he was absolutely certain that the person reporting was a fellow traveler. When the right wing saw Bush promoting the Petraeus report as the Big Event they knew without question that Petraeus was "on board" so they proceeded to build it up into a world media spectacle. A nonpartisan general would have strenuously objected to being used like that and would have resigned if necessary to stop it.

The betrayal in this case is similar to the betrayals that took place in Germany during the 1930s. The Nazis forced the German military to swear its allegience to Hitler instead of to Germany, which was clearly not in the best interest of Germany. As such it was a betrayal of the German people.

[Javaman]

88. At the start of the invasion betray us stated that he had

found the very fictitious mobile labs.

need I say more?

[LanternWaste]

89. I reject the premise...

I reject the premise-- betrayal is not the equivalent of treason. Looking at some of your other responses on the thread, you continually hold that "but the American people aren't smart enough to recognize the difference" or variations on it.

Yet you yourself stated "In a time of war, if you "betray" your nation you are being treasonous/traitorous." That's your definition-- and an invalid one at that.



Ask the question: "please explain to me how Petraus betrayed us, please", because it is not the same as the one you posed. They are two completely different questions with different meanings and different answers.

[bigtree]

92. promoting the immoral militarism of a treasonous commander

[yardwork]

94. I think that lying about the war is a betrayal of the trust we place in Petraus.

The person holding Petraus's position should be placing national security and the good of the nation above personal considerations. Instead, Petraus clearly lied about his knowledge of the facts about the way the war is going. I think that that is a betrayal.

If you want to equate that with treason, ok. I'm not sure I would go that far.

[ProudDad]

97. That's a huge mistake

having any faith in petraus...

[yardwork]

106. Of course I don't trust him! The point is that his position requires trust.

The OP's question was whether or not the general's behavior amounts to treason. I would say it certainly comes close to treason, because his behavior is a violation of the trust that his position requires. We - the taxpayers, the citizens, the people who live in this country - pay his salary. His job description requires that he be trustworthy and that he place the interests of the nation above his personal gain.

He's failed at that. If we give him a pass, we're giving up on the entire premise of the nation.

[goodhue]

95. Betrayal does not necessarily connote traitor or treason

That is a right-wing conflation the MSM swallowed hook link and sinker

[133724]

98. Jesus Christ was betrayed with a kiss........

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.


Bob Dylan "with God on our side"

[ProudDad]

105. When I perform, I do that song

Isn't that sad.

That I still have to sing that song...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

99. Yes, he is betraying US because he is perpetuating the fraud this administration committed,...

,...against US.

Questions?

[AntiFascist]

104. He is enabling a treasonous traitor....

plus the civilian military is not supposed to be involved in politics, which makes it even worse.

The Iraqi treason is constantly changing, first it involved lying about WMDs, now it seems to involve three things: using our military as sitting ducks so that the vengeful need for war continues, appeasing hawks on both sides. Also, keeping the central government in a state of disruption prevents Iraqis from agreeing on how to exploit their own oil, which keeps oil prices high and appeases the Saudis. Third, extending the war out for decades keeps a constant stream of $billions moving into the hands of the corporate war profiteers and continues to allow Bush to build his own privatized military force, who are being paid more and treated much better than our own military.