|
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend Bookmark this thread |
This topic is archived. |
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 08:30 AM Original message |
Americans living beyond their means |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Craftsman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 08:44 AM Response to Original message |
1. Like man could not see this coming |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
unpossibles (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 08:56 AM Response to Original message |
2. what? We Americans have a hard time thinking ahead to the consequences of our actions? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
no_hypocrisy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 08:57 AM Response to Original message |
3. I agree with the thesis of affluenza and easy credit being the downfall |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:34 AM Response to Reply #3 |
7. 'affluenza' |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Lorien (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:51 PM Response to Reply #7 |
76. And an excellent book, too: |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:56 PM Response to Reply #76 |
78. Cool, thanks! |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:48 PM Response to Reply #3 |
25. And if they are foolish enough to do as you say, keep up with the Jones, |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Clark2008 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:46 PM Response to Reply #25 |
44. What if you're doing it just to get by? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
yardwork (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:30 PM Response to Reply #25 |
52. Many people are undone by health care costs. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Katherine Brengle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:41 PM Response to Reply #52 |
71. This doesn't account for *most* of these people though. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:03 AM Response to Original message |
4. Mine is a dying breed. I live beneath my means. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:29 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Keeping up w/the Jones' |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:43 AM Response to Reply #5 |
10. Most people don't have a budget. Most likely, they are afraid to do one. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 10:21 AM Response to Reply #10 |
11. Just not the budget |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:06 PM Response to Reply #11 |
17. I am trying to get to Europe (Italy in particular) once a year. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Johonny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:18 PM Response to Reply #4 |
26. I'm with you |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:14 PM Response to Reply #4 |
50. satisfied saving |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
yardwork (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:37 PM Response to Reply #4 |
54. I would love to buy a modest house. They go for $225,000 and up in my community. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:08 AM Response to Reply #54 |
59. It's very hard right now if you want a modest house in a decent neighborhood. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
yardwork (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 01:55 PM Response to Reply #59 |
66. I live in a college town, too and love those aspects of it. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:12 PM Response to Reply #66 |
80. Especially great for retirees. All the free stuff. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
yardwork (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 05:04 PM Response to Reply #80 |
86. Let's just say that I'm in the Southern Part of Heaven |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Katherine Brengle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:47 PM Response to Reply #4 |
74. Amen. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
BellaB (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:27 PM Response to Reply #4 |
91. Same here sort of |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:31 AM Response to Original message |
6. It's bizarre than anyone would even THINK of blaming anyone but the spender... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:36 AM Response to Reply #6 |
8. Well, predatory lenders prey... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 09:39 AM Response to Reply #8 |
9. They prey on irresponsible people..... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Love Bug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:37 PM Response to Reply #8 |
30. I remember getting tons of home equity loan offers in the mail |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:42 PM Response to Reply #6 |
32. It's bizarre that any grown adult... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:44 PM Response to Reply #32 |
43. Unless part of their weaking is a provision forcing the borrower to borrow, it's immaterial. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Mandate My Ass (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:55 PM Response to Reply #32 |
77. Amen |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:52 PM Response to Reply #77 |
85. If the means shrinks, they shouldn't take a loan out that they can't repay.... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:23 PM Response to Reply #32 |
89. What does the average American know about that? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
renate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 02:08 AM Response to Reply #6 |
98. well, shit happens |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
no_hypocrisy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 11:18 AM Response to Original message |
12. Too late to update, but I recommend this article found on DU. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Javaman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 11:27 AM Response to Original message |
13. Yes and no... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
UncleSepp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 02:25 PM Response to Reply #13 |
33. Thank you, thank you, thank you |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
midlife_mo_Jo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:37 PM Response to Reply #33 |
68. that's how my parents lived |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Pithlet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:00 PM Response to Reply #13 |
38. Thank you. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:22 PM Response to Reply #13 |
51. A study touted in the media recently |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Zodiak (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 11:29 AM Response to Original message |
14. Whenever an article comes out like this |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:13 PM Response to Reply #14 |
18. "will only get much bigger in the coming months." |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Zodiak (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:32 PM Response to Reply #18 |
28. Then you are dismissing millions and millions of Americans |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:25 PM Response to Reply #14 |
20. But don't you think "financial literacy" has something to do with it? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Bill McBlueState (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:38 PM Response to Reply #20 |
23. yes, financial literacy is a big part of it |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 02:26 PM Response to Reply #23 |
34. You are right. I recently worked for Literacy Volunteers and financial |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
JBoy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:37 AM Response to Reply #23 |
63. Sorry, I'm too busy |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:42 PM Response to Reply #20 |
24. I have so many things to say |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 02:29 PM Response to Reply #24 |
35. No, you didn't offend me at all. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Zodiak (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:39 PM Response to Reply #20 |
31. I know that my generation (gen X) was taught two things about finances |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
UncleSepp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:42 PM Response to Reply #31 |
42. I was taught that you HAD to buy a home |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:01 PM Response to Reply #42 |
47. I think there's roughly two groups |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
UncleSepp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 07:15 PM Response to Reply #47 |
58. I'm not sure how many groups there are |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:25 AM Response to Reply #58 |
61. I think there is a difference between the Dutch tulip bulb craze and the housing market |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
UncleSepp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:30 PM Response to Reply #61 |
67. Definitely true for owner-occupants |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:51 PM Response to Reply #67 |
84. Value in exchange can be risky, altho gold seems to be an eternal standard. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
PassingFair (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Sep-13-07 07:53 AM Response to Reply #47 |
107. You are right about that, riverdeep! |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
LondonReign2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:03 PM Response to Reply #42 |
48. The difference is |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
UncleSepp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 07:00 PM Response to Reply #48 |
57. Absolutely no CC debt. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Blue_Tires (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:21 PM Response to Reply #31 |
88. very true n/t |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:27 PM Response to Reply #20 |
41. I pitched something like to my daughter's school once. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Manifestor_of_Light (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:24 PM Response to Reply #14 |
40. Guess I should not have spent that money on that law degree. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Coyote_Bandit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:12 PM Response to Reply #40 |
87. I hear ya' |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
goodgd_yall (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 07:25 PM Response to Reply #14 |
94. Watch it. Here come the capitalist hordes out of the woodwork. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
napi21 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 11:32 AM Response to Original message |
15. The article is RIGHT! I've always been very afraid of over extending |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:05 PM Response to Original message |
16. Some Americans with that luxury may be living beyond their means ... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:23 PM Response to Reply #16 |
19. What do you mean,can't save? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:27 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. Sorry, forgot DSL(internet connection) |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:35 PM Response to Reply #19 |
29. These are the Americans with that luxury to live beyond their means n/t |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
DaveJ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 12:34 PM Response to Original message |
22. Even if failure is a possibility |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
jdlh8894 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 01:19 PM Response to Reply #22 |
27. "Take no risk and be less benifit to the World" |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
DaveJ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 02:38 PM Response to Reply #27 |
37. Wow, way to really take something out of context |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 02:34 PM Response to Reply #22 |
36. Some things are, to put it quite simply, just the "cost of doing business" which |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Mutineer (659 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:15 PM Response to Original message |
39. No shit. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:48 PM Response to Reply #39 |
45. It's a house of cards |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
renate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 02:17 AM Response to Reply #45 |
99. just wanted to applaud your comparison of voluntary debt with the the environment |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Beaverhausen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 03:48 PM Response to Original message |
46. The insensitivity in this thread is mind-boggling |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
LondonReign2 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:07 PM Response to Reply #46 |
49. No, that's not the point |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:54 PM Response to Reply #49 |
55. The real question is, just how many of those silly people are there? |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
midlife_mo_Jo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:19 AM Response to Reply #55 |
60. This isn't exactly the answer to your question |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:31 AM Response to Reply #60 |
62. It should also be mentioned, fraud occurred in some cases |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
midlife_mo_Jo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 08:37 AM Response to Reply #62 |
64. Yes, I've seen that on tv |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 09:33 AM Response to Reply #60 |
65. Thanks for the link |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Katherine Brengle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:43 PM Response to Reply #46 |
72. Financial difficulty from healthcare costs is not the only kind of financial difficulty. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
AX10 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:36 PM Response to Original message |
53. This should have been obvious to all, |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-10-07 04:58 PM Response to Original message |
56. Have anyone in this thread professing the self restraint pathway ... |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Katherine Brengle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:44 PM Response to Reply #56 |
73. It absolutely does -- the system requires us to be in debt in order to |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
hfojvt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:50 PM Response to Reply #73 |
75. debt is not an evil thing |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:38 PM Response to Original message |
69. Blaming the victims n/t |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Katherine Brengle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 03:39 PM Response to Original message |
70. Almost everyone I've ever met lives beyond their means. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Raine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:09 PM Response to Original message |
79. It used to be shameful to be in such debt |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:17 PM Response to Original message |
81. If Americans don't continue consuming as much as they do now |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
riverdeep (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:48 PM Response to Reply #81 |
93. 70 percent of US economic activity comes from consumer spending |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
goodgd_yall (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 07:28 PM Response to Reply #81 |
96. Exactly n/t |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:22 PM Response to Original message |
82. Do anyone other than me remember * encouraging Americans to come out of their homes to shop |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Raine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 01:26 AM Response to Reply #82 |
97. I sure do |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 07:20 AM Response to Reply #97 |
104. Actually, * was being truthful |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
earth mom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 02:39 AM Response to Reply #82 |
100. Americans are "consumers" -not "citizens" these days. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 07:18 AM Response to Reply #100 |
103. That's it! |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
joe_sixpack (655 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 04:23 PM Response to Original message |
83. And when the government tries to bail us out |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Coyote_Bandit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:24 PM Response to Original message |
90. There's a big difference between rich folks and folks that |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Rosa Luxemburg (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 06:29 PM Response to Original message |
92. but the government wants you to consume as much as possible |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
mentalsolstice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-11-07 07:27 PM Response to Original message |
95. It's an attitude started during the Reagan years. n/t |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
earth mom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 02:53 AM Response to Original message |
101. The biggest problem in this country is that wages/salaries are WAY less than they were |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
flashl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Sep-13-07 06:31 AM Response to Reply #101 |
105. Exactly! |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Sep-13-07 07:35 AM Response to Reply #101 |
106. As I understand it, it's health care costs that hold down wages. |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
Beerboy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-12-07 03:06 AM Response to Original message |
102. I read just the OP, not the article linked, |
Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top |
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Thu Apr 25th 2024, 07:43 PM Response to Original message |
Advertisements [?] |
Top |
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) |
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators
Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.
Home | Discussion Forums | Journals | Store | Donate
About DU | Contact Us | Privacy Policy
Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.
© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC