Can we please stop the nasty anti-doctor posts here?

[knitter4democracy]

Sorry to post this and run (gotta make lunch for Little Man and get him to Kindergarten), but can we please stop posting anti-doctor crap here?

If you're against the AMA, I'm all for it. If you're against the medical system, I'm right with you. I'm a doctor's wife, though, and I've seen what Hubby goes through on a daily basis, and it's not easy. He's a damn good doctor (saved my life, for one), and he's a Dem. When he has a minute, he checks here, as do other doctors I've run into here. They're good doctors, too.

Doctors, nurses, other healthcare providers are often Democrats, and many hang out here. Saying that they've gone into medicine for the money or to kill people is wrong and nasty. Trust me, for the vast majority, there's not that much money--we're comfortable, but we're also in massive debt from med school--and Hubby cries still when he loses a patient he tried so damn hard to save.

I know malpractice, as I've had wrong diagnoses, bad prescriptions, and a kidney tumor missed for years. I know severe pain, I know crazy side effects, and I know sleepless nights of fear waiting for pathology results. None of those were my doctors' fault--they were doing the best they could with the crappy system they have to work in.

Please know that you're slamming real people who hang out here who have real feelings and are sick of this crap.

[kestrel91316]

1. Good luck.

:popcorn:

Everyone in medicine is just evil corporate shills. Even us lowly veterinarians.

[knitter4democracy]

89. I gotta try, though, right?

Move over and share the popcorn. *scoot, scoot* :) Thanks!

Btw, thank you for being a veterinarian. I thank God all the time for our vets--great practice. They get thanked in the local paper all the time, too. We need you guys!

[Marrah_G]

2. My life has been saved a few times in the last couple years

by truly wonderful doctors. My sons have both been saved by wonderful Hospitals and doctors. My daughter can still have children due to wonderful medical care.

I've never had a truly bad experience with a doctor. I like mine and I feel as though she really cares about me. When I was in the hospital with raging fevers (for 4 days) she was right there, and if she wasn't, then her husband (also a doc)was. When the Anti-biotic that saved my life left me unable to move my limbs a few days later she was right there. She has been there every step of the way and never brushed off my concerns.

Don't worry most here are not anti-doctor, as with all things here, rational people are drowned out by those hysterical few screaming that the sky is falling.

[mondo joe]

3. The scapegoating of physicians is remarkable.

Here and almost everywhere else in the United States.

[tblue37]

167. Perhaps. But notice that in polls indicateing levels of

admiration and trust, doctors come out at the very top (I think the last one I saw was 89%), with scientists second (about 74%, if I remember correctly). Some people will bad mouth anyone and anything, and certainly there are bad doctors, but in general, doctors are highly respected and admired in this country.

My daughter is a 4th-year emd student. I hear all about how rough and demanding medical school is. This brilliant young woman, who has always made straight A's with little or no effort, who was a Fulbright Scholar in 2005-2006 (one of our country's two most recognized academic honors--the Rhodes being the other), and who has an IQ and SAT scores that practically achieve escape velocity, told me just yesterday, "Mom, people just don't get it. I am smart, but in med school, I am just high average. I am nowhere near the top. You would not believe the brilliance of the people I am in competition with! I have to study all the time."

So when you hear people say thing like, "Remember, half of all doctors graduated in the bottom 50% of their class," keep in mind that is 50% of a highly slective sample, and in an ordinary sample, those "bottom 50%" would eat your lunch--and the lunch of most of your high school valedictorians, as well.

[knitter4democracy]

218. Please give her a hug from me.

She's made it through the worst year of med school (third year--ugh!), but that internship year sucks. I'm sure she'd love care packages with good food. Hubby didn't eat well that year at all, though he didn't have the hours restrictions they have now (120 hour work weeks weren't uncommon--I kept track). If only the hospitals would stop busting the resident unions.

[tblue37]

259. She knew third year was going to be hell.

She wanted to take third year off and go to Ireland and do some traveling generally. So I told her early in second year about how John Kerry's daughter had won a Fulbright when she was in her second yer of med school. Becky checked to see if she was eligible--she was, but there were only two weeks until the application deadline by the time she found out about the Fulbright competition.

Other people spend months preparing their research proposals and applications, with all sorts of advisors and even paid professionals helping them perfect the applciation. She had to throw hers together in two weeks, while in med school, and she had no one but me and one academic advisor to look over her application. By winning the Fulbright, she was able to take that third yer off and take a master's in social policy at University College in Dublin, while researching how changes in Ireland's child welfare laws had imapcted the well-being of children there.

She is glad she took that time off, but she was really stressed this past May when her original class graduated and she still had a year to go. I reminded her that she got that extra degree, spent a year in Ireland, did a lot of other traveling, and while she was in Dublin she met the young Frenchman she is going to marry. I understand how low she felt watching her friends graduate without her, but all in all, I think she got a very good deal out of it. (Besides, that Fulbright looks nice and shiny on her resume.)

She told me a few months ago that she and all her med student friends agree that if they'd had any real notion of how hellish third year is, none of them would have had the courage to go into medical school at all. I am glad she had that year off to help pad her against burn-out when her third year came. While she was studying for her degree in social policy, she missed medicine desperately, and that also helped get her through third year.

She was going to take third year off one way or another--many med students do, and then compelte their training after that year off, simply because third year is so rough--but by winning the Fulbright, she ended up getting the time off and a lot of other worthwhile things in the bargain.

[knitter4democracy]

278. Hubby took a break, too.

After that first year, he wasn't sure he was cut out for it. So, he started his second year, was horribly depressed and only wanted to stay home all day and read big books (like Moby Dick, of all things). I didn't know what to do, we were newly married, so when he asked if I thought he'd make a good teacher and maybe should take a year off and teach, I agreed. It was good for him. He needed to explore that side of himself and find that he really missed medicine.

She was smart to do that. She'll be able to get into whatever residency program she wants with that Fullbright, and she had a time to recharge. Good on the guy, too.

[tblue37]

261. Oh, about the care packages with good food--

her fiance is a classically trained French chef, from Lyon, France. She gets more good food than she can handle! (What she gets from me is a loving, willing listener and financial help when necessary.)

[w8liftinglady]

4. I've worked with some very caring doctors

several who have opened their offices on Sunday to get free samples for their patients with no health insurance.Most of the family docs I know aren't getting rich.

[area51]

5. k&r (n/t)

[coffeenap]

6. Yep, and let me say the same about dentists. There are bad ones,

there are greedy ones, and then there is the majority who wants to deliver health care to help people. My husband's city of Chicago office is not slick, not fancy, but is clean and up to date. He is not slick, not fancy, but is talented, gentle, smart, and heals people. I too understand malpractice and the problems with high costs. I empathize with all those who cannot get access to proper care and I want to change the "system" to provide everyone with the care they need.

Best wishes for good health.

[knitter4democracy]

93. Thank God for dentists!

My mom called me practically in tears this morning after getting good news from her dental specialist guy (I forget his real title--helps with TMJ and such). I love our dentist--young guy just starting out, takes everyone in and gives awesome care. My stepdad drives 45 minutes to see him. I'd bet your hubby has patients that travel long times just to see him because good health care providers are worth it.

:hug:

[tired_old_fireman]

7. There a lot of prolific posters on here that don't speak to the majority.

It's good to remind them that they're speaking about real people, but sadly I've come to realize over the weekend that they don't care. There's a mixture of good and bad in everything and people who try to paint things as black and white care more about winning an argument than living in reality.

[sneakythomas]

8. Thank you

My father is a doctor, my brother is a doctor and my sister is a doctor. Dad an my sister are confirmed democrats and all three have devoted their lives to saving others. It really drives me nuts to hear that they're only doing it for the money, no one who knows any of the three could possibly think that.

[Kelly Rupert]

9. I'm engaged to a third-year med student.

So I'll add my voice to this. The overwhelming majority of doctors both she and I know are extremely good people. She didn't go into it for the money--hell, if you do go into medicine for the money, you're going to be disappointed. There are plenty of jobs out there that don't require years of intense study and 24-hour shifts.

[Corgigal]

10. Cop's wife here

Man do I understand where you're coming from. I just ignore most of those haters of occupations threads. I've have great doc and bad docs and like all things, each person has to be judged individually. The way I see it, the people who hate doctors, cops and teachers will turn around one day because they will need all of them sometime in their life.

Thanks for supporting your hubby. I know he has a tough job to do.

[hlthe2b]

17. A nod to you and your cop husband as well.

With the Craig incident, I've seen lots of broad swath posts insinuating that no cop can be trusted. That is appalling to me to see on this forum, but we must recognize those attitudes are in the minority among progressives.

[Beausoir]

20. Doc's wife here. I know what you are feeling. The level of nastiness is astonishing.

But, like you said, someday, these people may require the services of a cop or a doc..and then the tune will change.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

36. Well, unfortunately

I already have needed the services of doctors. They almost killed me on three different occasions. They also have given me other problems I'll have to deal with for the rest of my life.

And as an African-American, don't get me started on cops.

[mondo joe]

23. As bad as the anti-doctor rhetoric is, the anti-cop stuff is so much worse.

Sorry to know the crap you must read every day.

Thanks for stepping forward!

:-)

[Felinity]

28. Here's the problem

Both doctors and police officers hold the power to injure or kill you. Not disputing that there are wonderful examples of both, and hopefully even most of them are trustworthy, is it wise to assume in every interaction that you are dealing with a "good one"?

One has to be careful. Personally, I don't think either profession does a very good job of protecting the public from the dangerous ones. So it's consumer beware.

[knitter4democracy]

95. Of course you have to be careful.

I'm not saying you don't. There are doctors in this town Hubby refuses to send patients to and does his best to get patients away from (they've been sanctioned by the state, even, but apparently not enough to lose their licenses--Grrrr!), and there are doctors I refuse to go to.

But that said, most doctors in this town are decent, and a few are tops in their fields. Just because someone has MD after his or her name doesn't automatically mean that one can trust that person, but it also doesn't mean that one should automatically hate his or her guts, either.

[DemBones DemBones]

257. Well said. When people's jobs essentially give them the

power to decide who lives and who dies, it is frightening that there are any bad doctors or any bad cops. I think most people know that there are good and bad people in any group you can name.

[LanternWaste]

86. After some of the threads I read last week slamming cops...

After some of the threads I read last week slamming cops ("they beat people and anyone who says differently is a liar or deluded..."), I'd be surprised if your blood pressure is normal.

For what it's worth, I thin that doctors, cops, and teachers are the most unsung, under-paid, and ill-abused positions of our culture.




"The way I see it, the people who hate doctors, cops and teachers will turn around one day because they will need all of them sometime in their life." Ha! I hear you on that one.

They're into the neo-trendy, anti-authoritarian gig right now-- "I had to stop at a red-light today, what a nanny state we live in!" or "I can't blow cigarette smoke in my neighbor's face because we live in a fascist country". When they become adults, they'll be thankful for the infrastructure. Until then, they'll fill up MySpace pages with sophomoric rants about "how unfair life is", whilst edifying themselves on the latest X-Box shoot-'em-up.

[knitter4democracy]

94. My stepbrother's a cop. Thank you for being a cop's wife.

That's a hard job in and of itself, being married to a cop. I see the fear in the back of my SIL's eyes when he gets called away from holiday family functions. When he was undercover in narcotics, we were all so scared he was going to get hurt.

May you and your hubby be blessed with peace today and a date night soon! :hug:

[StarryNite]

142. As the wife of a retired cop

I understand it too. But in reality there are bad cops and bad doctors and bad everything else. There are a lot more threads that bash cops than those that bash doctors and I don't see a lot of people around here jumping in to defend the cops. And I don't think anybody gets more angry at a bad cop than a good cop does.

[knitter4democracy]

229. I always try to defend them.

I know too many good cops and thank goodness for them.

Maybe if we were all just nicer to each other . . .

[uppityperson]

260. I did a cop rant recently, meant it against specific ones, not in general

I apologize if I came across as general as I know cops, considered it as a career in college, and only have a problem with specific ones. Prejudging someone because of color, size, sex, occupation, etc, it happens but it is good to be aware and try to not be a bigot, if that makes sense. Sorry, my words are slipping. Judge people individually, and my rant was about individuals, apologies if it was taken otherwise as it wasn't meant so.

[tammywammy]

11. Agreed

My best friend is doctor and a dem, as are all her doctor friends. :) They're good and caring people.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. There are bad doctors out there and they should be weeded out.

However, stating that and stating that all doctors are money-grubbing insensitive shills of the insurance company are two very different things. There are a growing number of people who are so frustrated with the whole health care industry in this country that blaming doctors is just part of the standard rant.

Aside from those with personal horror stories of bad doctors, I believe that many people have a deep seated mistrust of physicians because of the way care is limited or seemingly dictated by penny pinching health insurance plans and the way employer-sponsored group plans change providers so frequently that fewer and fewer people can stay with the same PCP long enough to develop trust. Perhaps if we can achieve a single payer system we can address those issues.

If it makes you feel any better, I've read countless rants here against people in my profession or allied ones. Sometimes the criticism is valid but frequently it's just a rant.

[knitter4democracy]

96. Amen they need to be weeded out.

I've often wondered how to get on the state medical board. There are a few I know of who need their licenses stripped, and the whole medical community here knows it. It's well-known, but those quacks are still practicing on patients, something that infuriates me and gets Hubby seeing red (he's taken their patients away before in the hospital--not exactly professionally nice, but the patients begged him to).

[bobbolink]

161. That will change when the doctors themselves no longer protect the bad apples.

I'm glad to hear that your husband has, at times, stepped in to save a patient from a "quack" (your term, not mine). That's what needs to happen.

But too many of us have seen doctors protect each other, rather than patients, and I imagine you've seen that, also.

As for the "bashing"..... you might have noticed that DU does a good job on just about every group. I don't think doctors have been singled out any more than any other group here. It gets nasty here for ALL groups, because it's allowed.

[knitter4democracy]

219. The former teacher in me doesn't like to see it happen to anyone.

I don't hate lawyers--know many good lawyers and respect them greatly. I don't hate teachers, since I come from teachers and taught for three years. I don't hate cops, mostly because my stepbrother is one and I know that fear that he might not come home some day. I don't hate Republicans because I know some good old-fashioned Republican who honestly hate what their party has become. I don't hate pro-lifers because I know some who have put their money and lives where their mouths are and have saved lives because of it.

Maybe I know too many people, but the reality is, hating or bashing any group here is likely to hurt someone. I wish it were, not banned really, just curtailed a bit more.

[bobbolink]

294. As a person in poverty, I can assure you that "bashing" is NOT banned

nor curtailed here. I've seen so many very ugly things said about poor people, but it goes on without a pause.

I don't know what you were posting about as bashing doctors. All I can say is that people differ in their use of the word "bash". While I wish that personal attacks weren't allowed, I know they are, and that is just plain wrong.

On the other hand, some people get upset if *any* negative thing is posted about their favorite group.

I wish that we were, indeed, a group seeking peace.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

[knitter4democracy]

301. Oh, I know!

Why is it, if someone's in hard times, it's considered okay to say some nasty stuff about him or her? I grew up in a rural area and went to school with some kids from poor families (dirt floors, no running water, etc.--it's bad way out in the country), and I know how wonderful they were to know and go to school with. I went to college with kids from poor families, and they were the first ever to go to college, and they were great friends and colleagues at college.

One poster mostly, but there were some posters calling all doctors murderers and such. That's what I got upset about. Not all doctors are bad or evil or getting rich.

I wish we were a group seeking peace, too. :hug:

I don't like any of the group bashing or the gross generalizations. I'm sorry, but I just don't. People are too complex and unique for that kind of talk.

[bobbolink]

306. "Why is it, if someone's in hard times, it's considered okay to say some nasty stuff about him or

her?"

Undergroundpanther has quoted a marvelous piece called "The Just World Theory". It states that most people, out of their need for control, insist on believing that the world is "just". So, if someone faces hard times or injustice, it must be their own fault. I learned much of this the hard way, after my son was kidnapped. Here I was, in the midst of so much pain and grief, and people (mostly women!) said things to me like, "What kind of mother are you to let such a thing happen?" !!!! It took me years to figure out that they were shocked that my son was kidnapped, and it brought up fear for them, so they quickly had to find a way to make sure that they were different from me, to insure that it wouldn't happen to them. When Columbine happened, I saw the same process again... blame the parents of the shooters, and find ways to see them as "different" and "flawed", so they can be sure that they would never be in that situation.

But, that's the left-brained explanation, and I don't think either one of us are looking for that. What is wrong is that we have become so ingrained in our "toughness" and insensitivity, and so afraid of being labeled "sensitive", that we can't empathize with people any more. It's always "US and THEM". The society as a whole is sociopathological, and even the "liberals" aren't very empathetic. I see such a difference between liberals in the 60's and now.

"One poster mostly, but there were some posters calling all doctors murderers and such."

I didn't see that, but that is terrible. I can understand why you were hurt. I'm guessing those people were hurt by doctors, also, but surely we've come to the point where we can understand that not everyone in a group is alike?!

I got caught in much the same thing. Months ago, there was an article about ELton John saying that all Christians are evil, and should be put to death. Much the same as you are talking about. I said that is ridiculous--in the first place, putting *anyone* to death isn't "liberal", and second, lumping all of any group, including Christians, is just.... well, it's just sad. So, that group (happens to be gay, but it can be any group, as you've seen) now have labeled me as "anti-gay", and follow me around with that accusation. I can't figure out what this is supposed to accomplish, as I'm sure you are puzzled with what you were involved with.

"I wish we were a group seeking peace, too"

I've given up on the idea of peace. Not in our lifetimes. We can't even make peace among people who essentially believe all the same things. Liberty for all, and all that. All the accusations and attacks..... it's a small scale of what our country is doing in Iraq, and did in Vietnam, but we can't seem to look at the moat in our *own* eye, and get our own peace act together. So, there sure isn't much hope for a larger peace. Their *used* to be that awareness that it has to start on a small level. Non-violent interactions on a personal level. But, no more. It's only peace internationally that seems to matter. On a personal level, it's just fine to blast others. All in the name of "free speech".

:cry:

"I'm sorry, but I just don't. People are too complex and unique for that kind of talk."

Please don't be sorry! We need to stop apologizing for wanting peace and liberty! And, yes, people are more than the surface things that get labeled and criticized. But we're nowhere near the point of recognizing that either as a society, or as liberals.

:cry:

Thanks for your well-reasoned response.

[knitter4democracy]

307. This should be a post all on its own.

Amazingly well-put. I am horrified that anyone would blame you for your child being kidnapped. Just horrified. It's that "it's safter to blame the victim" mentality that makes it so nothing changes. That's like saying I wanted that radiology tech to assault me because I was, what, lying there? Good gracious, that's bad.

It's days like I these that make me glad for my knitting websites that have "play nice" rules. Gives me hope for peace, really, even if only on a small scale.

:hug: I hadn't seen those attacks. I would've said something, since I think bashing all Christians is wrong. I know many liberals who are so left-wing because they are Christians. I'm one, Hubby's one, and we know many others. We're just as horrified and disgusted by the actions of right-wing Christians that hurt people as anyone else here. You've been a great DUer, and I've loved reading your posts and analysis while I've been here.

Makes me wonder how much of all this is troll-work, honestly. Division and in-fighting keep us ineffective.

[harun]

13. Thank you, enemy is the Health Insurers not the Doctors or Nurses (n/t)

[hlthe2b]

14. I concur and empathize; however IMO the AMA has done more

harm to the collective reputations of physicians (and other HCWs) given their positions in recent years--decades. Physicians must work with or in exclusion of AMA to deal with this disastrous health care system, to clean up the corporate influences (pharmaceutical industry, for example) and to fight back against this tendency for the "xian" RW to legislate the practice of medicine and the bastardization of science, upon which good health care must be predicated.

No one physician or other health care worker can do this, of course. These expectations on the part of the public are incredibly broad and arguably, at times, unrealistic. That is why providers must demand much more from AMA and others who speak on behalf of health care in this country. The public looks to physicians and other highly trained scientific professionals for leadership and advocacy when it comes to the public and their individual health. In the minds of many, they've not seen it.


edited for typos.

[ryanus]

15. "anti-doctor"? Maybe we are a little oversensitive

I don't think anyone is anti-doctor

[Beausoir]

22. Respectfully, I suggest you visit the "Mandatory Check-up" thread.

Granted, it's only one or two individuals, but there are some posts over there that accuse doctors of murder and compare them to genocidal maniacs. Pretty sick stuff.

ETA a sample:

<<Doctors not only get away with killing people, they keep
their job making hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, and are regarded as philanthropists.

What more must be said? What murderer wouldn't love that?>>

<<Obviously I can't prove the statement. I don't think a reasonable person would think it's that far-fetched though. As pervasive as medical malpractice is, it's clear that carelessness pervades the profession.

I know that a lot of doctors are rather childish. Perhaps many become doctors because they lack will-power and their parents make them?>>

[AnneD]

171. There has been more than a few...

bash Doc, Nurses, and Cops threads lately. Give it a few more weeks and we are sure to have a Teacher bashing thread too. These folks are the glue that hold society together.

I never went into medicine (Nursing) to get rich-but I didn't expect to be bashed either. The pay isn't proportional to the effort you put forth to get and maintain the license. I am tired of trying to make a silk purse out of this sow's ear.

Frankly, I have steered my daughter away from the profession. I didn't have to work so hard though-she has experienced it first hand-having to go with Mom to work Christmas eve only to be snowed in at the hospital for several days, having Mom come late to pick her up from school on a regular basis because there was a last minute emergency that Mom had to deal with. I always worked hard to make her understand that she was my first priority-even if she did have to come in second sometimes, but what kid or husband wants to come in second. That is another reason they can't pay you enough. And don't even get me started about natural disasters.

There is good and bad and it is silly to lump them together. At the rate these professionals are leaving and not being replaced-we will have a sad society. Just try piecing thing together without glue.

[uppityperson]

187. Read the rest of this thread. You may notice some who are. eom

[progressoid]

16. Yesiree

My F-I-L was a Physician. Damn hard worker.

:thumbsup:

[philly_bob]

18. I hate insurance companies, feel sorry for doctors.

Some anti-doctor hostility is simply aimed at medical system, which everybody agrees is not working well.

Some anti-doctor hostility is anti-science. There's a huge alternative-medicine industry that makes
big money selling quack pills to the gullible; they resist calls for scientific validation of their
outlandish claims.

AMA was too pushy back when they had power in the 60's, but now they're toothless, playing catch-up to the insurers.

Doctors take an oath. That means something to me. And doctors -- at least the ones I go to -- work hard.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

48. Unfortunately, even if the US gets universal health care,

we are doomed to have bad health care in this country.

Profits over people is the dominant American ethos. Until that changes, how will the ethos of the American doctor change, caring more about money than human beings?

Yes, doctors express and often cite philanthropy as a reason for choosing the profession. Does it follow that it actually is? Suppose LeBron James, with a straight face, could say he became a basketball player because he wanted to help people. Why wouldn't he say this, if people were credulous enough to believe it? It makes him look like a better person, and he still gets his $90 million contract (or whatever it was) doing what he loves to do.

And not all doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, if that is to what you refer. Regardless, had they, it's clearly broken on a daily basis.

[philly_bob]

148. I thought all doctors took Hippocratic oath.

Which doctors don't take it?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

162. It's really irrelevant.

I've only talked about the HO with one doctor. He's the one who told me he didn't take it. I am not sure why.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_today.html

Apparently most do take it, and it's nearly 100% today.

Even so, it's just an oath.

"Yet paradoxically, even as the modern oath's use has burgeoned, its content has tacked away from the classical oath's basic tenets. According to a 1993* survey of 150 U.S. and Canadian medical schools, for example, only 14 percent of modern oaths prohibit euthanasia, 11 percent hold convenant with a deity, 8 percent foreswear abortion, and a mere 3 percent forbid sexual contact with patients—all maxims held sacred in the classical version. The original calls for free tuition for medical students and for doctors never to "use the knife" (that is, conduct surgical procedures)—both obviously out of step with modern-day practice. Perhaps most telling, while the classical oath calls for "the opposite" of pleasure and fame for those who transgress the oath, fewer than half of oaths taken today insist the taker be held accountable for keeping the pledge."

[bettyellen]

222. LOL, so your point was irrelevant.....

and redraw the line in the sand... again...

[AnotherGreenWorld]

227. That obviously wasn't the point of the post.

[bettyellen]

233. well it was another undocumented slam at doctors... so it is releveant in that regard

it's called full of shit itis.

[uppityperson]

241. sad, isn't it?

I wonder if 1000 will happen?

[muriel_volestrangler]

179. So your problem is with average Americans, then, not doctors?

"Profits over people is the dominant American ethos. Until that changes, how will the ethos of the American doctor change, caring more about money than human beings?"

You think the majority of Americans care more for money than their fellow humans. Do you make such strong criticisms of other professions too?

[kineneb]

19. I like doctors, it is the "medical industry" that I loathe.

The Docs are keeping Hubby alive and happy; and they are doing a good job. Also, without them, I would not be alive, either; some clever emergency surgery saved me from dying at age 19 from peritonitis.

To all the Doctors out there in DU Land: Thank you!


What pisses me off is the system that screws over people with chronic illnesses: to get care for Hubby, we had to spend down all of our assets and then had to go through Ch. 7 bankruptcy. We are now stuck in low-income medical hell, where if the family earns too much money, they loose all Medicaid coverage. Then the family winds up with less income than before, due to the high costs of medicine. It is totally insane.

[knitter4democracy]

98. It is insane.

Massively insane. It's why we need a national health care system with one plan that covers all. We all have that right as human beings--medicine and care are rights, not privileges.

[xchrom]

21. my life too -- has been saved by doctors and modern medicine.

do i have frustrations -- have i had bad run ins with doctors --? -- you bet.

but it's what i have to work with -- and medical care givers -- from doctors to nurses -- have worked wonders in my life and the lives of people i've loved.

i have to recommend this.

[AngryAmish]

24. When do the anti-lawyer threads get quashed?

People have opinions. They express them around here.

on edit, today I am spending $1000 per hour of someone else's money to talk to a doctor. That sum is not unusual in the least. A years work at this rate would earn the doctor over $2,000,000. So, tell me, do you think this person is greedy?

[Felinity]

29. Please explain

Just curious. Who gets $1000/hour for a consult?

[AngryAmish]

30. This one is an orthopedic surgeon

Next week is the neurosurgeon.

[Felinity]

34. Still asking

Are they actually billing that rate? Is it through a major instiutution like the Mayo clinic?

[AngryAmish]

39. Yes. It is a major institution (Northwestern Memorial Hospital)

Actually he has a practice near the hospital and has admitting rights but not part of the hospital per se (independent contractor of the hospital).

The neurosurgeon next week is not affiliated with a major institution.

They can command this rate because they know if we do not pay they will shade their testimony against our client and hurt or kill our case. This is someone who treated the patient already, been paid for their surgery and is just squeezing the last blood out of the stone. If I went to court to reduce the fee (to something more reasonable, like $400 per hour) it would cost me a lot of time and then they would really shit on our client.

$1000 per hour is close to standard in this area for orthopedic surgeons and neurosurgeons. They know it comes out of their patient's pocket but don't care.

[knitter4democracy]

100. Hubby doesn't get nearly that.

He helps a lawyer in town with disability suits and such. They pay him a couple hundred per case, and that's in spending a couple of evenings going through the whole chart, looking stuff up, mulling it over, and then writing up his response. That's it. If he has to testify (and he does soon for one case at a deposition), I think he only gets $50 for his time.

Man, he'd never take that kind of money to help someone who'd been hurt. He almost did these cases for free and then decided his time was worth something and took what they offered.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

121. Then he's an exception.

[Beausoir]

133. Nope, nor does mine.

Not even close.

[mondo joe]

35. Is greed measured by what someone earns?

I rather thought that had more to do with the market.

[AngryAmish]

46. No market at play here

I can't pick a doctor at random and shop on price, etc. Actually, outside of plastic surgery it is very difficult to make an intelligent choice on doctors because the information of ability is not available (same as lawyers and many other professionals).

Anyway, this is a treating physician. I can't select someone else. So I (or my client) pays full boat for fair testimony or cut the fee and have the doctor shade his testimony in every way to hurt their patient's case. Fair or greed? You tell me.

[Kelly Rupert]

51. It's interesting how people believe

that 100% of their medical expenses goes to the doctor's salary.

[LanternWaste]

78. I think those same people...

I think those same people believe that Hospital Administration, HR, RN's, the janitorial staff, and EKG machines are free and fall out of the sky as needed (and that those sweet, innocent insurance companies take absolutely no slice from the medical pie...)

:crazy:

[terisan]

25. Tell your spouse thank you for going into the profession and serving people. nt

[emilyg]

26. Good post.

[Celebration]

27. I have so many doctors in my family

Every single one of them are wonderful, caring people..............

I do think it is appropriate to have a thread here saluting doctors, who have to live with the mess of a medical system that has somehow been created on a daily basis. I just cannot imagine the frustrations of this. Surgeons spending their time arguing with paper pushers that an operation is needed.........insurance companies "losing" paperwork.........

I won't even add a "but" on this post.

[GoneOffShore]

31. The Anti- doctor-drugs-science crowd here is most disheartening

I find it difficult to square liberal thought with the embrace of woowooism by many here.

It's as anti-intellectual as many of the right wing fundy nuts.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

41. Actually the pro-doctor crowd

seems the most right-wing. Need I remind you who said, "Too many good docs are getting out of business. Too many Ob-Gyns aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country"? Of course, he was scapegoating medical malpractice, parroting the medical malpractice myth most Americans have uncritically accepted.

"What do we know?

First, we know from the California study, as confirmed by more recent, better publicized studies, that the real problem is too much medical malpractice, not too much litigation. Most people do not sue, which means that victims—not doctors, hospitals, or liability insurance companies—bear the lion’s share of the costs of medical malpractice.

Second, because of those same studies, we know that the real costs of medical malpractice have little to do with litigation. The real costs of medical malpractice are the lost lives, extra medical expenses, time out of work, and pain and suffering of tens of thousands of people every year, the vast majority of whom do not sue. There is lots of talk about the heavy burden that “defensive medicine” imposes on health costs, but the research shows this is not true.

Third, we know that medical malpractice insurance premiums are cyclical, and that it is not frivolous litigation or runaway juries that drive that cycle. The sharp spikes in malpractice premiums in the 1970s, the 1980s, and the early 2000s are the result of financial trends and competitive behavior in the insurance industry, not sudden changes in the litigation environment.

Fourth, we know that “undeserving” people sometimes bring medical malpractice claims because they do not know that the claims lack merit and because they cannot find out what happened to them (or their loved ones) without making a claim. Most undeserving claims disappear before trial; most trials end in a verdict for the doctor; doctors almost never pay claims out of their own pockets; and hospitals and insurance companies refuse to pay claims unless there is good evidence of malpractice. If a hospital or insurance company does settle a questionable claim to avoid a huge risk, there is a very large discount. This means that big payments to undeserving claimants are the very rare exception, not the rule."

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/036480.html

[Kelly Rupert]

44. Obviously medical malpractice is bad.

Nobody would claim otherwise. Nobody is saying that doctors do not ever make mistakes, and nobody on DU (or left of Bush, for that matter) is saying that the problem with the medical system is malpractice claims.

What we are saying is that doctors are not malicious, but rather are overwhelmingly competent, good-intentioned people.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

58. You can't possibly know that doctors are competent, good-intentioned people.

It's not just that doctors make mistakes. Mistakes are common, and they are not held accountable.

[mondo joe]

61. "Mistakes are common"? How common is medical malpractice among

doctors in the United States?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

63. 100,000 people are killed by doctors each year.

Millions of lives are ruined each year.

[mondo joe]

66. You failed to answer the question. What percentage of doctors are guilty

of medical malpractice?

[Kelly Rupert]

64. Yes, you're right.

My entire social network is made up of law students, lawyers, doctors and medical students. Clearly I have no idea about malpractice lawsuits or the life of doctors.

Most doctors live in fear of malpractice lawsuits. They often order tests that are largely unnecessary, just to cover their legal asses. I know a half-dozen doctors (none of whom have actually committed malpractice) who have moved out of Illinois and into Indiana, just because Illinois malpractice insurance is so expensive.

Mistakes are common, yes. They're mistakes. Doctors are human. They are extremely-well-trained, devoted humans who are constantly in life-or-death situations. And they will make mistakes. To say they are not held accountable is demonstrative of gross ignorance.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

67. Actually, it's a fact that most victims of medical malpractice do not sue.

And the doctor's life goes on as if nothing happened. The patients bear the cost of medical malpractice, not doctors.

[knitter4democracy]

106. That's not entirely true.

Yes, I know a doctor who sleeps just fine at night while giving out crappy care. He's an assholic jerk, and he's losing patients for it, as is right.

Hubby made a big mistake once which happened because the nurse read him the wrong number over the phone, but he didn't double-check that number (now it's all on-line so he can read it all for himself, which cuts out this kind of error). He was stewing over why the patient wasn't getting better but instead getting worse. When he took out the whole chart and sat down from the beginning, he found the mistake and almost threw up. That's what he told me that night, when he still looked grey and ill. He changed the treatment, the patient got better, and everything was okay, but he still double-checks everything and worries he'll do that again.

Last spring when he lost a patient who had lung cancer, he sat in my arms and cried all night. The patient wasn't originally his but instead the asshole's. Hubby was covering over the weekend and saw that things weren't like normal. He started searching for what was wrong, only to find after a month of specialists and testing and a risky biopsy that it was lung cancer and had spread. The patient died two weeks later, and Hubby cried. He went the day before the patient died to do a home visit (which he does with his very ill patients) and sat with the man and his wife, not knowing how to make it better.

I'm just saying--he's never been the same since then. He still wonders if he could've found out sooner, seen something somehow sooner. His life sure as hell didn't go on like nothing happened.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

108. There are good doctors. Your husband might be one of them.

But they are rare. The doctor to which you refer at the top of your post is common in my experience. And these sorts of doctors will always have patients. The free market, unfortunately, doesn't work the way The Wall Street Journal would have us believe.

Journalists don't document error after error a local doctor makes. And even if that information were widely available, people likely wouldn't check. Of course, were it available, the patient would bear more responsibility.

[knitter4democracy]

114. I don't think he's as rare as you make him out to be.

I have several doctor friends, and when my kidney tumor was found last fall, great doctors saved my life. I avoid the bad ones, report the really bad ones (yes, I have), and share with everyone locally the names of doctors we don't trust.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

117. I've never been to a good doctor in my adult life. And I've been to dozens and dozens in the last

two years.

Sure, when I was a kid, they didn't greatly harm me. But a garbage man just as well could've done what they did, telling me to drink plenty of fluids. Drink orange juice. And so on.

If your husband is a good doctor, he is rare and becoming rarer.

[Tyler Durden]

132. No offense, but you sound like an unsatisfied hypochondriac.

Sorry. But as a former member of the medical profession (USN Field Medic) who watched physicians WADE into situations hazardous for themselves to save someone, you are talking through your ass.

I can count the number of mediocre doctors I've met in 55 years on one hand.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

137. Well, you're wrong.

Do you have any serious diseases?

If I went to doctors just because of a cold, I would be perfectly satisfied with doctors. Though at my age, I'm intelligent enough to know that there's no reason to go to a doctor for such a trivial thing.

[Tyler Durden]

196. Well, NEENER, NEENER, NEENER to YOU too.

Father: Cancer. 5 pain free years thanks to a doctor.
Uncle: Cancer, rheumatoid arthritis. 15 years past diagnosis in comfort thanks to a doctor (Canadian)
ME: accidental poisoning, two massive orthopedic surgeries, three minor repairs plastic surgery.

Son: PE tubes and TWO YEARS of care on COPAY ONLY when I had lost my insurance: thanks to a doctor.
Daughter: Gall bladder and kidney surgery, fine now, thanks to a doctor.

wife: 5 orthopedic surgeries; she walks now, thanks to a doctor.

Why don't you tell us what your REAL issue with medicine is?

[LanternWaste]

134. The doctor's lives go on as nothing had happened?

The doctor's lives go on as nothing had happened?

Chief, seriously-- I think you're getting into assumptions you don't really know too much about-- other than (maybe, at best) anecdotal evidence. There a LOT of posters on DU who are in/have been in the medical field long enough to know your statement is simply not the case...

[AnotherGreenWorld]

138. I've experienced it first hand.

[LanternWaste]

169. Which is... (wait for it)...

Which is... (wait for it)... Anecdotal Evidence! Ta Dah!

[AnotherGreenWorld]

140. The doctor of death I know actually receives rewards now.

[mondo joe]

145. Possibly your claim that he or she is a "Doctor of Death" is slander.

:-)

[AnotherGreenWorld]

146. Have I mentioned his name?

[mondo joe]

151. Nope - but it doesn't mean your charge is accurate.

I didn't mean legally actionable.

I meant bullshit.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

153. Well, you don't know the situation.

Even if you think it's unavoidable that doctors kill approximately 100,000 people every year and that doctors bear no responsibility at all, that has no bearing on this specific case.

[mondo joe]

155. No, but I know how quick you were to misrepresent the study you

referenced, so your track record isn't looking so good.

And you continue to do it. Look here:

The study says: "Many Americans are injured by the health care that is supposed to help them. Tens of thousands, in fact, die from injuries caused by their care and treatment, rather than from their diseases. The IOM's estimate is between 44,000 and 98,000 such deaths per year in hospitals, alone."

Not 100,000 but somewhere between 44k and 98k - you misrepresent that by going to highest amount. Additionally, they are not "killed by doctors". Another lie on your part.

The study says "Only a tiny fraction - perhaps two or three percent of these injuries are due to incompetence, carelessness, sabotage, or gross negligence on the part of individuals."

[AnotherGreenWorld]

157. That's because standard procedure

is walk into a room and write a script for a drug the doctor knows nothing about. If the patient dies from the drug, it's not the doctor's fault. If the patient comes in complaining about side-effects and later dies, it's not the doctor's fault.

And the 98,000 figure is in hospitals alone. This also ignores malpractice that merely ruins lives to the point that they would rather be dead than alive.

"Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing." —Voltaire

[mondo joe]

159. You are making up more BS about "standard procedure". Now you're

saying the study you cited is wrong.

Make up your mind, please.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

160. Are doctors required to tell patients about side-effects?

What happens if they do not?

What happens if they deny that the patient is experiencing a side-effect and instead choose to keep the patient on the drug?

[mondo joe]

164. Canyou decide whether you actually believe the study you referred to or not?

If not, what are you basing your BS on?

[AZBlue]

178. ....

Trust me, you're wasting your breath with this one. They quickly dropped off my radar - I refuse to ever acknowledge their presence here again.

[DemBones DemBones]

262. Is this the "anyone can be thin" poster? I have him on Ignore so

I can't tell. The one who has never seen an obese poor person?

[uppityperson]

264. Yup.

Branching out to doctors are evil murderers who only become drs because their parents made them or who only want to make money and have the prestige of being a Doctor. Yeah, same one.

[DemBones DemBones]

267. Just as I thought!

This whole thread is half "Ignored" because I'd had enough of him last night! I remember now that his sig line said doctors kill 100,000 people a year. I considered asking him the source because I think I know the whacky-quacky site that makes that claim, though it's probably made by others.

[pookieblue]

274. same person

about doctors, I have ran into a few bad ones. But overall, I have had/have some very caring, great doctors more than I have had bad ones.

[Mojorabbit]

180. Actually

this statement is pure bullshit. I am sorry but it is.
That's because standard procedure
is walk into a room and write a script for a drug the doctor knows nothing about. If the patient dies from the drug, it's not the doctor's fault. If the patient comes in complaining about side-effects and later dies, it's not the doctor's fault.

Even as a nurse, I had to know all about the drugs I gave, their side effects and how they work.
My husband knows all this plus the in depth chemistry on how and why they work.
I don't think you know anything about training for the medical field judging by your statements.

[Marrah_G]

275. Sometimes there are rare side effects, but that isn't the doctors fault

I became unable to move my arms and legs, feel my hands and feet, had a sudden onset of panic attacks and had memory issues after taken the commonly used anti-biotic Cipro. It took about 5 days for the doctors to figure out what was wrong. Sometimes people react badly to things 99.9999% of the population respond great to. It took a while but I am almost fully recovered.

Anyway, to all you medical field people: Quinolone based anti-biotics can cause severe peripheral neuropathy and nervous system damage! (in rare cases)

[LanternWaste]

170. Would that be more anecdotal evidence?

Would that be more anecdotal evidence?

[Mojorabbit]

176. I will tell you

that my husband(family practice) was sued once. He wanted to fight it but his malpractice company settled the case for ten grand because it was cheaper than going to court like hubby wanted. He had no say in whether it was fought or not. Then they raised his malpractice insurance and he got a black mark on an otherwise perfect record..
One suit in 25 years. The whole system sucks.

[sendero]

225. Is your DU name..

... the title of one of my all time favorite recordings in the world, or is that just a coincidence? :)

[Exiled in America]

291. The "Pro-Doctor" crowd?

:eyes:

[AnotherGreenWorld]

32. Murderers are people, too.

They have wives/husbands, children, mothers, fathers. And yet, we don't excuse their behavior for that reason.

The people who suffer malpractice are not doctors but patients. And doctors very rarely even attempt to make amends for their gross incompetence. Usually it is covered up. And the patient does not sue.

And no one has said that doctors become doctors to kill people. It just ends up that way too often.

[mondo joe]

38. Oh yeah right - doctors = murderers. For fuck's sake.

Do you have something to back up your claims?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

42. You don't read closely enough to appreciate the point obviously.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/036480.html

[mondo joe]

45. And what percentage of doctors are guilty of medical malpractice?

?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

50. Most medical malpractice is covered up, and goes unreported.

It's much like rape.

[mondo joe]

52. Then how do you know it is covered up and unerported?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

56. If I go to the trouble of referencing scholarly research

for the claim, will you bother to read it?

[renie408]

59. Yeah, I would. I would like to see the proof of unreported and covered up malpractice.

I am not saying it NEVER happens, I would just like a little perspective on what actual experts have to say on the subject.

[mondo joe]

60. Then please answer the question. What percentage of doctors are

guilty of medical malpractice?

[Kelly Rupert]

53. That didn't answer the question. n/t

[renie408]

55. Huh? Isn't that kind of an easy claim to make?

Like saying that the times that Barack Obama has beaten his wife have gone unreported and it has been covered up.

I am not saying that Obama HAS beaten his wife, I doubt it very sincerely. But you can claim that anything is happening, only it is being covered up and unreported.

[renie408]

57. No. Really. You are going to have to provide some links for that. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

49. That is rebutting a very specific argument,

which has not been raised here. That article (and book) is debunking the claim that excessive numbers of medical malpractice lawsuits are the primary cause of the high cost of health care. Nobody has claimed that. What we are claiming is that doctors are not murderers.

Malpractice happens. It will always happen. Doctors are human, and make mistakes. When a patient who recently fell off a stepladder presents with back pain, it just might be an aortic aneurysm. However, the odds of that are pretty damn low. On the other hand, failure to detect that will kill the patient. When you have a patient like that, the doctor must weigh the 99.998% odds that the patient hurt themselves in the fall vs. the dozens of deadly but extremely unlikely possibilities, each of which requires an expensive and lengthy test to rule out.

Multiply cases like that by the millions of people requiring medical care each year, plus factor in the undeniable truth that eighteen-hour shifts will dull any human's mental abilities. Add the fact that during a surgery, a quarter-second mental lapse can cause enormous problems for the patient.

Malpractice will happen. Yes, some doctors are bad and should be driven out of business by multiple malpractice suits. But most are competent. And most shouldn't be slandered with the name of "murderer."

[AnotherGreenWorld]

54. I didn't call doctors murderers. Some are though.

The point was that you can excuse anything--even murder--by pointing to the fact that the person doing the misdeed has family. :eyes:

Most medical malpractice is hardly like you describe. :eyes:

[Kelly Rupert]

62. Two things:

1. You replied to "Stop calling doctors murderers, it's insulting to their families" with "Murderers have families too." Your sig is "Medical doctors murder approximately 100,000 people each year."

Let me spell this out for you. You. Are. Calling. Doctors. Murderers.

2. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about as regards malpractice. Just another case of an internet warrior who read a few articles and now thinks they're an expert.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

65. I am calling the doctors who kill 100,000 human beings each year murderers.

And when I say "murderers have family, too," you are missing the point.

[mondo joe]

68. Which doctors are those, and how do you suppotr your allegation that

they have killed those people?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

71. ?

Is that your way of asking for a cite for that claim, or do you want an enumerative list of every doctor who has ever murdered a patient?

Obviously the latter is unreasonable. The former has been posted numerous times. Here it is again.

"Throughout the medical malpractice crisis, leading newspapers carried accounts of other obvious medical mistakes. Like the L.A. Times piece on Jesica and Jeanella, the accounts often linked the particular mistakes to the larger story about the extent of medical malpractice in U.S. health care. The report by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, To Err Is Human, was a common source. That report summarized research showing that nearly 100,000 people die in the United States each year from medical mistakes—more than die from automobile and workplace accidents combined."

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/036480.html

[mondo joe]

73. "Medical mistakes" are not all medical malpractice.

Baker is perhaps most open to criticism in his treatment of medical errors. Chapter 2 is titled "We Have an Epidemic of Medical Malpractice, Not Malpractice Lawsuits." What follows is a discussion of the literature culminating in the publication of the 1999 Institute . of Medicine report To Err Is Human. The underlying point is not in dispute. Whatever we call it, there are serious problems of patient safety and health care quality. What we call it, however—whether it be errors, mistakes, adverse events, negligence, or malpractice—does matter. Baker acknowledges the taxonomy difficulties (pp. 34–35) but collapses down to a shorthand of "malpractice." From this move comes the oft-repeated statement, which takes on an important rhetorical flair, that there is a greater problem of medical malpractice than malpractice lawsuits.

Labels are important. What we call a problem has direct implications for how we attempt to solve it. When Baker labels the problem "malpractice," this naturally suggests torts and the judicial system as the solution. Alternatively, the label of "errors" or "safety" or "adverse events" might lead in stronger regulatory or self-regulatory directions. Moreover, collapsing down to a single label, as opposed to a more nuanced taxonomy, suggests that a monolithic rather than a differentiated policy solution is appropriate. A better frame is suggested by Michelle Mello and colleagues in their call for "regulatory pluralism," where torts operate in concert with a range of other interventions to improve patient safety.1 Under this approach, the very definition of "negligence" might be reconceived to channel only those types of problems into the legal system that courts have a comparative advantage in addressing. Malpractice cases ask courts to do difficult things. Defining the appropriate standard of medical care and establishing causation are inherently complicated tasks, which might or might not be best suited to an adversarial legal process.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/289

[AnotherGreenWorld]

76. I believe this was brought up by AEI during Baker's presentation there.

I'm gonna see if it's still on-line. Baker's reply is worth hearing.

[mondo joe]

77. Until you can start substantiating your claims, nothing you have

to share is "worth hearing".

[AnotherGreenWorld]

80. Doctors kill 100,000 people/year. That's a fact. Most victims of doctors do not sue. That's a fact.

If people don't accept these as facts, why bother to look for other research?

It really doesn't bother me if you believe me or not. One day, perhaps, you'll be on the receiving end of medical malpractice.

[mondo joe]

81. If these are "facts" they should be easy to substantiate. Please do so.

Thank you.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

83. I already have.

[mondo joe]

84. Repeating "it's a fact" is not substantiation.

Thank you.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

87. But referencing a book and a study is...

[mondo joe]

88. No, it's not. It's just referencing a book and a study.

Not all books and studies are authoritative.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

90. One published by the academically prestigious University of Chicago is though.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

92. The report was by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science.

[renie408]

104. I saw the link to the book, but I don't think that is very compelling. Could you please cite the AEI

report?

[pinto]

110. The findings of the report are different than being presented here. See my post (#102) and the link.

Hope this clarifies things somewhat.

:hi:

(on edit) misposted. meant to reply to renie408 with the actual findings of the report and a link for clarification. thanks

[AnotherGreenWorld]

112. I have a feeling you'll like what the neocon thinktank the American Enterprise Institute

has to say better. It conforms to a more noble view of doctors that we all would like to believe.

You can probably google and find it. If not, I'll post it later on. I can't look right now.

[renie408]

115. I just want some facts, not overblown rhetoric. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Your claims sound over the top to me. All I have asked for is some proof. You haven't supplied any.

[pinto]

118. see my post #102. Hyperbole in health care discussions is a frequent pitfall, from

discussions of unviersal health care to medical liability, etc. The findings are different than being presented. Hope the link to one of the author's comments before Congress helps clarify things.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

120. This finding isn't different.

Baker accurately summarizes the report when he says, "Throughout the medical malpractice crisis, leading newspapers carried accounts of other obvious medical mistakes. Like the L.A. Times piece on Jesica and Jeanella, the accounts often linked the particular mistakes to the larger story about the extent of medical malpractice in U.S. health care. The report by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science, To Err Is Human, was a common source. That report summarized research showing that nearly 100,000 people die in the United States each year from medical mistakes—more than die from automobile and workplace accidents combined."

Yes, the report disagrees with me about the pervasiveness of carelessness, but even if I had to accept that, it doesn't justify the pervasiveness of medical malpractice.

[pinto]

124. I think you miss the point.

"Only a tiny fraction - perhaps two or three percent of these injuries are due to incompetence, carelessness, sabotage, or gross negligence on the part of individuals. They tend, instead, to come from latent hazards built right into the systems of care."

"Errors can be reduced, but not eliminated. Injuries are different; they can be eliminated, or nearly so."

[AnotherGreenWorld]

135. So doctors, collectively, aren't responsible for the system of care?

Errors can be reduced. Injuries can be eliminated.

If your SO died because of one of these errors, you would say, hey, it's part of the system. Thanks for the service doc. You gave her a drug to which she was allergic, and when she came in complaining about a rash, you said not to worry about it, because rashes are common. That's just standard procedure. :eyes:

As far as incompetence and carelessness being the cause, that's arguable. If you have low standards--which the medical field does--you won't find much incompetence. When you don't expect much, that sort of thing happens. 100,000 people killed a year--in hospitals alone--by doctors. Hey, that's not so bad. I'm sure Mr. Hume from Fox would point out that more people died in WWII. So what's to complain about?

[mondo joe]

139. No, they're not. They are part of the system, but only part.

And you continue to falsely conflate MALPRACTICE with errors.

[pinto]

125. self delete. I have some glitch, apparently, in posting.

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

130. Yes it is. The report says medical malpractice ISN'T pervasive.

You're saying it is.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

122. It also doesn't contradict the fact that Baker points out: Most victims of doctors do not sue.

[mondo joe]

126. It contradicts your entire cockamamie position.

How embarrassing.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

119. Um, yes I have.

If you don't like the facts, that's fine.

[renie408]

131. WHAT FACTS?? WHICH POST?? Can you at least give me a post number

where you offered proof of these facts?? The only thing I can find is the link to the book excerpt, which is useless as proof of your accusations.

[renie408]

103. That is a link to a book excerpt which has has no supporting citations. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

70. Murder? Really?

First, your 100k claim is unsubstantiated, and relies purely on an extrapolation from one survey of New York hospitals. Secondly, it's grossly misleading. Take the stepladder case above. I know a doctor who was sued for malpractice for exactly that situation. He settled out of court, as most doctors do. However, that patient clearly would have died had he not shown up in his office. That patient would have died in the care of many doctors. But a lawyer can take any case like that and spin it to make the doctor look grossly negligent.

You have no idea regarding the circumstances surrounding most cases of malpractice. And your use of the word "murder" is frankly indefensible. Many, many cases of malpractice are caused by pure negligence, yes. But negligence is not intent to kill; it's usually an inflated belief in one's own instincts. Thinking you can save someone while cutting corners is not the same as murdering them, and your use of the term casts severe doubts on your ability to discuss the situation rationally.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

72. The English language lacks a word to describe what incompetent doctors do

when they kill people. I would say it's worse than murder.

And again: most victims of medical malpractice do not sue. You can point to one case. That doesn't change the fact.

[Kelly Rupert]

75. Then you're not worth further discussion.

You are akin to a random-number generator with three options: "100k murdered" and "most don't sue," and one link to one book. Requests for further information, or challenges to your statements, have resulted in you spitting out one of your three talking points.

You know nothing of medicine. You know very little about malpractice. You read one article and now you think you're an expert. And I'm done giving you fodder to let you massage your ego.

[LanternWaste]

141. The word you're looking for is 'manslaughter'

The word you're looking for is 'manslaughter'. But that doesn't sound as juicy as "murder", or advertise your predisposition for doctors as The Enemy, I suppose.


Sheesh, you really start to dance around when pressed for precise and relevant peer-reviewed information...

[AnotherGreenWorld]

149. No.

[lapislzi]

85. With malice aforethought?

Way to overstate.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

99. Well,

as I said, I think when doctors kill it is something worse than murder.

At least when murderers kill they are punished, reinforcing that murder is bad, and you shouldn't do it. Murderers are put in jail; they're not paid $160K/yr and regarded as humanitarians. When doctors kill, nothing usually happens. Oddly, people sometimes feel sympathy for the doctor rather than his/her victim and the family members of the doctor's victim. But that's pretty much it.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

105. In addition,

when a person goes to a doctor the presumption is that things will be better, not worse. One doesn't expect to be killed, paralyzed, or have his/her life ruined in some other way.

To me, being paralyzed by a doctor is worse than if a stray bullet had paralyzed me as I walked down the street. In the latter situation, there is no expectation of safety. And walking down the street, a person certainly doesn't expect their health to improve.

Under a doctor's care, however, there should be a presumption of not just safety but of competence, and, call me old fashion, but I like the sound of "do no harm."

[pinto]

102. Seems you may have misread the key findings, or misinterpreted them:

Testimony of Donald M. Berwick, M.D.

President and Chief Executive Officer
Institute For Healthcare Improvement

and

Clinical Professor of Pediatrics and Health Care Policy
Harvard Medical School

and Member

Committee on Quality of Health Care in America
Board on Health Care Services
Institute of Medicine
The National Academies

before the

Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies
Committee on Appropriations
U.S. Senate

March 13, 2003

<snip>

I am going to focus on the To Err Is Human report mainly: What does it say? What should we do? And, how can Congress help?

That report has three major findings:

First:

Many Americans are injured by the health care that is supposed to help them. Tens of thousands, in fact, die from injuries caused by their care and treatment, rather than from their diseases. The IOM's estimate is between 44,000 and 98,000 such deaths per year in hospitals, alone.

Second:

Only a tiny fraction - perhaps two or three percent of these injuries are due to incompetence, carelessness, sabotage, or gross negligence on the part of individuals. They tend, instead, to come from latent hazards built right into the systems of care. The more complex the systems, the bigger the hazards. Put otherwise, the IOM finds that most patient injuries, if they are due to human errors, are due to those kinds of errors that are part of daily life - human factors - and therefore those errors are in some sense, inevitable. If we fired every single doctor and nurse who made a mistake today, the error rate in America health care would be the same tomorrow. Mostly, the people are good, but they work in flawed systems.

Third:

Errors can be reduced, but not eliminated. Injuries are different; they can be eliminated, or nearly so. From other industries and from good theories, we know that it is possible for very complicated systems to be very safe - much safer than health care - by providing technological and cultural supports that make human error less likely to do harm. The problem is that health care has not yet invested anywhere near enough time, talent, and money in trying to become much safer. We lack both the technologies and the culture that could make us safe.

To get safer, health care has to change. To get much safer, it has to change a lot.

On the technology front, we must modernize our information systems, make the electronic medical record a routine feature of all health care, and simplify our procedures and practices by removing unnecessary steps, unnecessarily complicated equipment, and senseless variations in practice from place to place. We need to integrate information across boundaries, so that we do not drop the ball when the patient moves from one hospital to another, or from the office to the hospital to the nursing home and back home. We need to develop registries and systems for remembering patients' drugs, diagnoses, and preferences. We - both the care providers and the public - need to understand that in health care, more is not always better - in fact, it is very often worse. And that even in this wonderful age of biomedicine, simpler care is often safer care.

<more>

http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/testimony/Medical_Liability_Insurance_Issues.asp#TopOfPage

[eridani]

255. We shouldn't wait on malpractice suits

We need better oversight mechanisms for doctors. Yes, and for cops and lawyers too. The percentage of incompetent doctors might be low, but it could be reduced to almost non-existent with better oversight.

[Tyler Durden]

128. You get asked for stats, and you post a book by someone with an ax to grind.

Try posting some REAL statistics.

You're like someone who quotes COULTER to show opinions on LIBERALS.

It doesn't work that way.

You aren't arguing in a logical fashion. And by the way, the three finest people I have known in my life (besides my wife the nurse) are all doctors.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

156. When Ann Coulter gets published by a prestigious university like the University of Chicago,

and when Ann Coulter becomes a law professor at a university like the University of Connecticut, then that's a fair comparison.

And by the way, the three worst people I have known in my life are all doctors.

[mondo joe]

165. You have misrepesented the findings of the study, in a very Coulterish way.

You have a stated personal bias that has nothing to do with the greater reality.

[Tyler Durden]

194. Then you have my sympathies.

As far as being a LAW professor, you have a lot of nerve pissing on DOCTORS around here where we hold LAWYERS just above serial killers as a rule.

AND this press also publishes THIS boushwa:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/229063.ctl

Publishers PUBLISH; and a lot of the time, they publish TRIPE.

[uppityperson]

198. This one looks interesting.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/166037.ctl

[AnotherGreenWorld]

215. Republicans--not Democrats--generally hate lawyers...

Doctors qua doctors murder 100,000 people each year. Lawyers qua lawyers murder no people.

Remember the doctors qua terrorists in the UK? Fortunately, of course, they were incompetent even as terrorists.

[uppityperson]

240. Oh bull puckey. All the way around.

Dem's don't hate lawyers, those are repubs. Docs "murder" that number again, pulled out of a book. Doctors are terrorists because a few UK were. Oh my good lord. Why are we blessed with posters like you?

[Tyler Durden]

273. welcome to my IGNORE list.

You are a person of little logical ability, and no ability to support your prejudiced argument.

[Exiled in America]

292. This is the kind of hyperbolic comparison that kills serious discussion.

Just look at what the sub-thread has turned into.

[DrunkenMaster]

33. You Can't Stop Free Expression With Whining

Sorry, but people have the right to express their opinions no matter if you agree or not. You can be "sick of this crap" all you like -- that's the bitch of living in a free society. Cope with it.

[Kelly Rupert]

40. Yes, people are allowed to be ignorant dicks.

Nobody would doubt that. It is your right.

We're asking you to not be.

[renie408]

47. Good luck with that. n/t

[Marrah_G]

69. Fortunately we can always just tune out the crazies with the ignore feature

[Reciprocity]

91. What whining? We have threads that support causes all the time here.

[knitter4democracy]

107. People whine here all the time.

It's a time honored tradition on DU. ;)

[AnotherGreenWorld]

123. People even have the gall to whine about parents who don't help pay for their son's MD.

:eyes:

[Pacifist Patriot]

113. I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

I saw it less as whining and more as an attempt to reach a few people who might be open to a perspective shift. Can't hurt to try.

[LanternWaste]

143. Doesn't sound too much to me to ask people to be civil.

Doesn't sound too much to me to ask people to be civil...

Seems to me that acting like an asshole and expressing an opinion don't necessarily have to be one in the same thing.

[Reciprocity]

37. K&R

I have no doctors in my family, but have two doctors that feel like family. They have saved my husbands life numerous times in the last thirty years.

[cobalt1999]

43. I think you're hearing the bad only due to the idea of mandatory visits.

My brother is a doctor and I know how hard he works and how hard he takes it when things go wrong.

On the other hand, he is also one person who almost never goes to a doctor himself.

Most of the stories are just to illustrate the need for people to make their own choice whether or not to go see one and to accept treatment vs. something government mandated in order to have insurance. Don't take it personally. It's the mandated seeing of doctors that is the issue, not the doctors themselves.

[Trillo]

74. I don't know what this is about particularly,

perhaps something derived from the Edward's possible statement that healthcare and treatment would be mandatory under his plan.

I've seen your posts before calling for the same thing. I'm quite certain there are many good individual doctors, teachers, and individual members of other groups typically thought of as authoritarians. However, you also have to remember that anyone who, to use a figure of speech, wears the colors of the gang, will be held at least somewhat responsible for the actions of the least competent member of that gang.

Lots of people have had too much bad treatment by some doctors, incompetent treatment at times, failure of other doctors to discipline such incompetent treatment, the list of transgressions is quite long.

The failure of many doctors to cooperate with their patients is routine.

I'm sorry you take the things that people say about bad doctors to heart, and somehow feel that they mean your husband in particular. People have to vent their anger at the corrupt healthcare system somehow.

[knitter4democracy]

109. I know that it's not personal, but it does get to me over time.

Calling every single doctor in the US a murderer is personal, since it means my hubby, too. That's hard not to get irked about.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

168. 120.

I have never called every single doctor in the US a murderer.

[pingzing58]

79. Put the blame where is justly lies. At the feet of Pharmaceuticals and Medical Insurance providers.

I'm sure it would be easy to find the statistics on how many die of the side effects of drugs and the lawsuits that they have lost and the money they are making by increasing the cost of medications. They are the greedy! How many people have been sent to their deaths because the treatment or medication is not approved by the insurance who will not give a penney to save a life. They are the greedy. I agree with those who have posted that Bushco blames the high cost of medical insurance on the doctors but that's not where the blame lies.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

82. Bushco blame it on lawyers, not doctors...

[pingzing58]

101. right he was making the argument for award caps. thaks.

[NMMNG]

97. Hear, hear

I'll admit the medical/pharma system has its flaws. Nonetheless, if it weren't for doctors and "Big Pharma" I'd be far worse off. I'd still be suffering an average of 17 days/month from my intractable migraines instead of 8 (and have nothing to treat the 8 with). I never want to go back to the hell I experienced before.

[Pacifist Patriot]

111. Try being a minister when we get a flood of "religion's the root of all the world's woes" posts.

I know exactly what you mean! I want to crawl under the rug whenever the activities of extreme right wing evangelicals begin to morph into representation of organized religious leadership in general.

I have no idea why the tendency to generalize occupations based on the behavior of a few bad apples, but it's rampant.

Minister = Televangelist
Police Officer = Stormtrooper
Car Salesman = Unscrupulous Huckster
Attorney = Greedy Opportunist

and on and on. It's ridiculous.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

127. But suppose

there was a finding that said 100,000 children are molested by youth pastors every year, and because of their pious profession, they serve no jail time.

You wouldn't try to justify it. You'd just condemn those individuals, and probably say, "We really need to figure out a way to prevent this. Those youth pastors must be held accountable. Something must be changed in our system to hold them accountable, and make sure this stops." And so on.

And I also bet if you knew a youth pastor was molesting a child you wouldn't try to cover it up. Why, then, is it acceptable that doctors cover up medical malpractice for other doctors?

[Tyler Durden]

129. I repeat: SHOW ME YOUR FINDING.

And don't quote that book again. Try quoting something from a REAL STUDY.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

144. The book is published by the University of Chicago.

It's a legitimate source. The University of Chicago is one of the most academically prestigious universities in the US.

For the 100,000 people/yr killed by doctors, he references the study To Err is Human. I've posted the link to that several times already.

[mondo joe]

147. It has already been proven that you have misrepresented the

findings of the study.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

150. 100,000 people are killed by doctors each year.

That's indisputable.

If you want to say most of those deaths are the result of a bad system, say it. But don't dispute the fact.

[mondo joe]

152. Your facts are bullshit.

The deaths attributed are not MALPRACTICE nor are they MURDER nor are they KILLED BY DOCTORS.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

154. Every word is a prejudice.

— Nietzsche

[pinto]

181. BS. Those deaths are due to errors throughout the system.

Most inadvertent, unintentional and fixable - from admission, through lab work, pharmacies, the hospital ward floor, MD's and the *communication* among all concerned.

Your blanket statement, "100,000 people are killed by doctors each year.", doesn't look to any productive solution to health care errors. It seems more about a personal agenda that denies any discussion.

I appreciate your passion, yet feel your mind is set on a focus that precludes discussing the issue objectively.

Just my two cents.

Thanks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

166. It doesn't matter who published it.

Where was it peer reviewed?

[Tyler Durden]

195. The same wonderful folks who publish THIS jewel of knowledge:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/229063.ctl

Give me a break.

[Pacifist Patriot]

172. I'm not sure why you are asking me, or anyone, the last question.

Has anyone said it is acceptable for doctors to cover up the medical palpractice of other doctors? I can't imagine who would.

[knitter4democracy]

200. As a Christian, I hear ya on that, too.

You'd think we'd all be more respectful of the people on the other ends of the "tubes," but we're not.

I even grew up an evangelical. I know good evangelicals, real Christians doing their best to love their neighbors. I have a very good friend who's pretty high up in Right to Life. Good man, and we agree to disagree on politics. We both work for peace and justice, though. Not everyone we disagree with is a horrible person.

:hug:

[LostinVA]

230. OMG -- you're a minister???

What's your stance on gay marriage?

[eridani]

256. I think s/he perfoms them--or at least civil unions or whatever the state allows. n/t

[LostinVA]

263. Actually, I was just joking -- she's a friend of mine

Not only that, but she's flying up to NJ to marry Haruka and me.

Pacifist Patriot rocks.

Hell, we're even having a Catholic priest doing a reading at our gay wedding.

[Pacifist Patriot]

277. Sadly, my state doesn't allow them. BUT...

I am having the distinct honor of traveling to NJ to offiate the nuptials of LostinVA and Haruka. LostinVA is just poking at me.

[Pacifist Patriot]

276. My stance? I usually stand up front with the couple facing one another.

But I'm always up for switching things around and standing in the back. Though that might leave folks with a crick in the neck. :)

[Missy Vixen]

116. Thanks, knitter4democracy

It's always nice to hear from you. In the meantime, I'm consistently amazed at the attitudes of some who post here. Nobody is pure enough, are they?

Julie

[MsRedacted]

136. Amen. Medicine is as much of an art as a science. Doctors are put in awful

positions in this day and age between insurance and helping patients. Yes there are incompetents in any field. But the majority of docs are out there trying to do their best in a bad situation because they love what they do and they want to help people.

[erinlough]

158. Try being a teacher in the public school and feeling

you are doing your job very well.....for the last 35 years.
Try hearing (not usually from DU) day in and day out how public school is failing...
Then try to imagine never being able to stay home and get my little man off to school because I never made enough to be able to stay home.

You have to admit that at least your being compensated. By the way I have had wonderful Dr.s and I never bash the medical profession....just saying.....

[knitter4democracy]

203. My mom's a retired public high school teacher.

So is my stepmom, though she had fewer years. I taught for three myself. Teachers hardly ever get the respect they should. I only stayed home because, as a Catholic high school teacher (only teaching job I could get then), it cost us too much for me to keep working. A good chunk of the med school loans come from that year, and we're still paying off consumer debt from the residency years.

You are an amazing teacher, I'm sure (you're on DU, so I'm sure you are :D ), and I think it's amazing you stayed in that long. :hug: If you were my kids' teacher, you'd be getting nice soft socks for Christmas. :)

[erinlough]

210. Thanks the socks would be appreciated here in cold

Michigan this winter. Thanks for the kind words too.

[knitter4democracy]

221. I'm in Michigan, too.

Maybe I should add you to my sock list (it's long, though--you've been warned!). What size shoe do you wear, do you like anklets or longer legs, and are you allergic to any fibers? If you want boot socks, that'll move you up in the queue. ;)

[DemBones DemBones]

265. It's a relief when you stop teaching and are no longer

held responsible for everything that's wrong with the world today.

About 20 years ago an NEA president said it well:

If a doctor prescribes medication for a patient and the patient doesn't take it, no one blames the doctor if the patient doesn't get well or even dies.

But when a teacher assigns homework to students and the students don't do it, the teacher is blamed for the students not learning the material.

Why is that?

[woo me with science]

298. "you're" nt

[NC_Nurse]

163. I agree. Most doctors really care and work very hard.

As do nurses and other medical professionals.
Medical people are human too. We make mistakes despite our best efforts, but
deliberate intent to harm a patient is extremely rare. Most of us strive to give
quality care in the face of a system that works against us on many levels.

There are fewer and fewer qualified docs and nurses out there to take care of an aging
population in this country and I am convinced that it is due in part to the lack of respect many
of us have gotten from the public and from the working conditions we endure in our outdated
healthcare system.

A lot of young people take one look at the level of work and commitment compared to the debt, stress, and
income and decide medicine is not worth it. There are a lot of fields that require less expensive higher education, shorter hours,
fewer interactions with anxious or hostile people, and pay a LOT more.


Reading hostile posts on here isn't very encouraging either.

[softwarevotingtrail]

173. General practitioners are an anachronism

I have nothing against doctors as individuals, but there is simply no need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars learning organic chemistry and similarly esoteric subjects in medical school in order to prescribe antibotics, check blood pressure, and refer to specialists.

The first line of defense should be replaced. Get rid of the GP's and replace with nurse practitioners. Save oodles of money, perhaps enough to stave off another decade of yearly double-digit increases in medical care costs.

But wait a second. The AMA would never go for that, would it?

On second thought ... I have nothing against doctors as individuals. But I DO have something against doctors as a group. Unfortunately, by and large they remain part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[NC_Nurse]

174. There are more and more NP's and PA's filling the general practioner

role. I think there will be more and more. Things ARE changing and some doctors are part of that.
I'm not saying all doctors are saints, just that most try hard to do right by their patients.

[Beausoir]

209. Yes. PA's are most welcome in my husband's practice.

An extra pair of hands is always welcome.

[knitter4democracy]

302. Mine too.

He likes them. It leaves him free for more of the interesting cases he really likes.

[Mojorabbit]

177. My husband is

a board certified family practice doc. I can assure you his training was not only chemistry and "esoteric subjects". Good grief, perhaps you might want to read up on the training.
He is the one who catches problems in the early stages and then coordinates the care between specialists if they are needed. There is a place for nurse practicioners( and I am a nurse) and PAs but they in no way replace a good gp.
He went into this specialty because he wanted to care for families and not just one specific area of illness.

[knitter4democracy]

205. Hubby felt the same way about internal medicine.

He wanted to take care of the whole patient, not just part.

Thank goodness for the FPs and front-line doctors like our hubbies. My FP growing up helped keep my asthma from ever getting out of control and got me to specialists when I needed it. I remember once, as a teen going through a horrible custody battle, her holding my hand and crying with me. I will always have a special place in my heart for her.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

190. No thanks

I really don't care to get rid of the GP's or family physicians, although I do think that nurse practioners working in conjunction with MD's can save money "and" provide quality care. My children's doc has two nurse practioners working with him, and I find it to be an excellent setup.

[uppityperson]

191. Welcome to DU and I agree, different levels of education can do different things.

Knowing your limits and when and where to refer to are the make of a good health care provider. We need GP/FPs to coordinate care between NPs and MD specialists. Seems too many times we get referred to a specialist, and no one is doing overall coordination. That is what GP/FPs are good for, seeing the broad picture, including patient's life outside the clinic.

[eridani]

258. I think that's a good idea too

You can save a lot of money by getting answers and care at the lowest functional level of expertise. I don't mind going through successive steps at all. If the nurse practitioner in my doctor's office can't figure it out, s/he refers me to a GP. If the GP can't figure it out, s/he refers me to a specialist. If the specialist can't figure it out, s/he goes online and consults other specialists in the field. Not many problems are so intractable that they don't get solved at the end of this process.

[Kat 333]

271. Be Careful What You Wish For ...

When I moved to a growing, rural, area there was a serious shortage of GP's. None within a sixty mile radius were accepting new patients. Something came up that I wasn't comfortable having a nurse practitioner have the final say in and there was nowhere to turn. Ok ... that is a bit dramatic, however, with a heavy work schedule, and being sick it, surely, seemed that way to me. Within 10 days of my last apt with a NP I had to make an emergency trip to the ER because of peritonitis and subsequent surgery. We, fortunately, are no longer short of General Practitioner's. I do feel things would have went differently if the doctor I have now would have been here then. She does have a NP seeing patients at her Clinic, who is great, but sometimes we need a diagnosis that a doctor is more trained and experienced to give.

[kimmerspixelated]

175. I apologize profusely

if I have ever come across as adamant against regular doctors. I think there are many good ones, however, I just think they only know one thing, basically, and that is to manage symptoms, and to dispense medicine. Unfortunately this does little to cure a patient. I am more mad at Big Pharmas and the FDA for their lies, propaganda and thievery, more than the doctors themselves. There is more to tell, but I don't want to stoke the fire.

[knitter4democracy]

206. Heck, I'm mad at Pharma and the FDA, too.

That, I'm sure, we can massively agree on. :) Add in national health care and more respect for natural cures, and I'm happy.

[Gelliebeans]

182. You thank your husband for me

As a chronically ill patient my Doctor has been my biggest advocate. I have had a some good docs over the years and a couple bad ones just like life. The bad doctors hide behind the system. The good doctors try to help their patients in spite of it. That is a very distinct difference. My doctor and I both understand the ultimate goal and are clear on how we achieve that. This didn't happen overnight though, it took us 8 years to build.

I just got into an argument with a specialist last week but my reasoning and evidence won out the argument. My meds are going to be changed over immediately. I persisted with calm evidence as to why I needed to have my meds changed and I wasn't going to leave his office until we had some kind of resolution even though I was prepared for some compromise.

Bottom line you as a patient will always be your own best advocate. Do not think that you don't have to take the time to understand your diagnosis or treatment. Willful ignorance won't cut it because in the end you might hurt yourself by not taking charge in the first place. Believe me when I say that sometimes I have felt too sick to want to research but I have a backup plan with my friends and family for those times. A good doctor/patient relationship is based on honesty and trust and if you feel that either of those things are lacking, move on. To broad brush all doctors is truly a mistake because many doctors are very committed to their patients and are willing to go to the mat for them.

The problems started developing with the birth of the HMO. We took away the doctors' ability to treat their patients without health insurance interference and until we get back to allowing doctors to practice without this interference we will continue to be disappointed in the whole system.

[knitter4democracy]

208. You're so right. Thank you.

I've walked out on doctors who didn't treat me as a partner in my own treatment or didn't listen to me. You're right--even in the depths of pain and illness, we have to be our own advocates. Hubby always says that every family needs a doctor or nurse in it, since he's had to be an advocate for me and for his mom and gets calls from friends and family all the time to explain stuff and ask questions.

I hope my internist doesn't leave. She does a great job managing all my oddities. Good doctors keep people alive.

[MUSTANG_2004]

183. But some problems are caused by doctors

We've dealt with good and bad - my daughter's doctors were superb. Truly fantastic, both in their skill and their concern in getting the best possible outcome.

My mother, on the other hand, had some truly horrible doctors. Mis-diagnosed, incorrect treatments, the works. To be fair, she had one fantastic doctor as well.

Doctors, moreso than most professions, have some truly bad practitioners who cause a great deal of harm. Unlike choosing an incompetent plumber, if you have the bad luck to draw a below-average doctor you may end up dead or disabled.

[knitter4democracy]

211. Yes, there are bad doctors. I know of a few.

Two in town head up a practice, and they've killed patients. The state has sanctioned them, but that's it. The only reason the other doctors in town have anything to do with them at all is because those two also own most of the medical office property in town. As landlords, they demand respect. It sucks, and Hubby refuses to play their game. He takes patients away when he can, and makes sure none of his patients ever see those guys. He's reported things only to have it melt away.

It's a smaller city. There are similar situations in other professions here, but they don't kill people. I'm trying to figure out how to get on the state medical board so I can get rid of those guys and quacks like them.

[rucky]

184. Insulting an entire profession is ridiculous.

even used car salesmen. even collection agents. ok, maybe not collection agents.

[OzarkDem]

185. Docs are great!

The vast majority are hard working, good people who have their patients best interests in mind.

I, too am offended by people who claim doctors keep people ill so they can make money from pharma companies. Anyone who believes that has a screw loose.

[Cleita]

186. My neighbor is a doctor.

He's a liberal who rescues animals, who helps me with heavy lifting when I need it. He came home to take care of his elderly father when he was declining in health. He took care of his father right up until his death although it mean't him having to interrupt his residency and put his career on hold. How many doctor bashers can say they live by the golden rule as well as my neighbor does?

[onewholaughsatfools]

188. Kitty well said

I have friends are are in the medical field and they are also Dem's, they do work hard and most of them truly believe that it's the medical system that's at issue here and having in dept discussion with them I have to agree. A universal health care system is what we seem to agree with.

[uppityperson]

189. Well said, k&r

Of course every profession has its jerks and incompetent people. but I am really tired of the anti-doctor posts also. I get the feeling that most of the anti-stuff is by 1 poster who repetitively posts an unsubstantiated number (but it is published by ....Press!) and other such tactics. Most DUers do not feel this way, and I am no longer going to try to discuss it with some since it is beating my head against a wall. Thank you for the reminder, much nicer than I have thought of writing.

Thank you.

[natrat]

192. i was under the impression that the viral corporatists have been

instructed to go online and bash medicine in an effort to blunt any move toward real health care reform in this country

[uppityperson]

193. That wouldn't surprise me. eom

[HannibalBarca]

197. Well the same goes for us Pharmacists

that are bashed with depressing regularity when one of our colleagues refuses to dispense, for example, the contraceptive pill. On that occasion the "pill counters are not doctors" meme along with various other colourful descriptors come out with reckless abandon that betray this site's supposed rational and free thinking principles. I don't agree with this practice for what its worth but,as the thread initiator stated, that doesn't seem to matter here.

[uppityperson]

199. Pharmacists are a necessary but over worked part of the medical/health care system

IMHO they are not just pill counters, but they need to know about each medicine, checking orders for appropriate dose/etc, side effects, interactions, and be able to talk with customers who either didn't ask their provider or whose providers were too busy to tell them all that. Caveat, I am a nurse and patient education is a big part of what we can/should do. Pharmacists as a whole are over worked, but a vital part of it all.

[knitter4democracy]

214. Thank you for your work.

I have huge respect for pharmacists. Long hours, hard work, people yelling at you over stuff you have no control over, and then patients like me who can't remember how many refills each of us has left on which drug. :blush: Good pharmacists are worth their weight in gold, Hubby always says. He grabs them when he can to go over anything he's not sure about. He gets good ideas from the ones he works with.

[BlooInBloo]

201. I'm with anyone who acknowledges that "frivolous lawsuits" are a fictional artifact...

... created to deprive patients of their rights, in favor of doctors, insurance, and reinsurance companies. Anyone else can fucking go to hell.


Public Citizen's Congress Watch has a thorough state-by-state rundown of the fraud, called something like "Challenging the claims of the doctors' lobby".

[VLC]

212. A lawyer told me once that it's near impossible for a normal person to sue a doctor

That it's hard to get other doctors to give evidence, and the suit would cost minimum $70,000. So basically, unless you lose a limb or a life, it's not worth it.

I believe there are a LOT of incompetent doctors out there, just as in any other profession. The stakes are higher with doctors, though, and there isn't much recourse. I once filed a complaint against one with my HMO and I asked what would happen. "It'll go in his file." Big f'in deal.

[likesmountains 52]

226. Some lawyers will take on malpractice case on a "you only pay if we win" basis..

I have had to give a deposition before and the law firm was going to receive a % of the money if malpractice was found...if it was not proved they got nothing..In this particular case the plaintiff lost...so the law firm did not get any $$

[BlooInBloo]

237. Which is why there are essentially NO frivolous suits - the lawyers won't take a bad case.

[VLC]

239. Or cases that won't win enough to cover their expenses.

Even though the malpractice did occur.

[DemBones DemBones]

231. Oh, that's great: "It'll go in his file."

There are two doctors in my HMO I ought to complain about for failure to diagnose conditions that could kill me, and could have, should have, been diagnosed when I first went to them with symptoms.

But I think complaining to your HMO or to your state medical board is like complaining about a capo to the Mafia. Doctors cover for each other and if you complain about one, you're liable to have trouble with others, maybe be dropped as a patient.

I majored in biology, minored in chemistry, so I knew all the pre-med students. All of them were going into it for the money.

I ran into the guy who was my lab partner in organic chemistry after his first year of med school at a prestgious school. He said it was different, realizing he didn't have to make A's anymore. He said there was a saying "C=M.D." Kind of scary.

He was a nice guy and is probably a decent doctor. But I remember how he'd always rush to put the glassware together for labs and invariably do it wrong. I'd be looking at the diagram and thinking about it before I got out any glassware while he put his together. I never put mine together wrong because I RTFM every time. I hope he learned not to hurry so much in med school, and I really hope he didn't go into surgery! :scared:

[VLC]

238. I hear ya!

And thank goodness for the Internet. Now we can at least research the stuff they prescribe us and read about symptoms, etc. ourselves. You gotta keep on top of doctors and double check them all the time.

I hadn't thought about being blacklisted like Elaine on Seinfeld ;-) It was too late to fix what he did to me, but I felt I had to do it in case it helped someone else down the line.

I've also had some good doctors... like the ones who helped me after the bad ones messed me up! But even they are human so it's always best to keep on top of everything YOURSELF.

[DemBones DemBones]

270. Yes, you have to read up on all your meds

and diagnoses but it's bad when you go to the doctor and suggest a change in your meds because of your research, and he says "You can find anything you want on the internet." :grr:

This was when I had printed out an article from a medical journal, mind you. I've got to look for another doctor. He's made too many mistakes in diagnoses, with my husband and with me, and insulting me was the last straw. He's supposed to be one of the best doctors in town. :eyes: Makes me worried about the others! He's very friendly and listens, which undoubtedly helps his reputation, but he doesn't really hear.

A few years ago, he couldn't figure out why I was having double vision. After an MRI and an opthalmologist couldn't figure it out, I started looked up my medications online and found double vision listed as a side effect of one. Which proves that you can find anything you want on the internet and that is not a bad thing, if you can tell the wheat from the chaff. As soon as I stopped taking that med, no more double vision.

Why didn't he think to look up my meds in his PDR, or have one of the office "girls" do it? Why did I have to do his work for him?

I've had a couple of good doctors here, one moved away and the other just retired. They were specialists. Oh, my current opthalmologist is really good, too. Everyone else, just so-so.

[knitter4democracy]

280. Not all of them cover for each other.

There's a cardiologist whose practice is dying because the residency program director in town got sick of saving his patients at the hospital and told everyone to take away his patients--and they are. For some reason, the state's not doing enough to get that idiot out of medicine, but the other doctors in town are. Hubby's gotten a couple of that guy's patients, and he's in the next town over. He sent them to a different cardiologist after fixing their meds to make sure they didn't die first.

Oh, and guys who rush like that are eaten for lunch as interns. Pimping (where the attending running rounds) is quite an effective humiliation tool. Someone who's rushed stuff and doesn't know the answers or gets it wrong will be continually humiated until he learns the right way.

[DemBones DemBones]

293. They got rid of a cardiologist here after he very nearly killed a friend

of ours. He put a stent in her and then left the hospital minutes later. They took her to her room, she had a blood clot in her leg and her life was saved by the quick thinking of a big burly orderly who sat on her leg and a nurse who worked on her until they could get another doctor in there. She also had a heart attack during all this. My husband was there visiting when it happened and they started ripping her gown off so he made a quick retreat into the hall.

Not much consolation to her or her husband that the cardiologist lost his privileges and had to leave town. She was under 50 and her life expectancy may have been shortened by his screw-up. They should have sued, they really could use the money, but they didn't. I don't think they even considered it.


I could tell you a lot of stories about incompetent doctors that I've encountered myself. Also rude doctors. You ought to know they're out there; most doctors are Republicans, after all, and would not be in medicine if it paid what teaching or nursing does. Your husband is still paying off his loans but eventually you'll have a huge house and a BMW or Mercedes, if not two or three, belong to a country club, be able to take cruises and ski trips, etc.; all of the doctors we know socially do. One bought BMWs for all his kids.

Patients know this and they don't mind doctors being well-paid but most everybody works very hard for a living and doesn't earn half what doctors do. So when doctors behave badly, it's very annoying. Patients don't like to be treated as if they are inferior to the doctor since they are, after all, hiring him.

I'm sorry to say that the good doctors are a minority. The majority are so-so and the rest are bad. That's pretty much true in every field, of course. Most people are average. But most people don't have responsibility for people's lives.

A guy I used to work with had a son in med school, he bragged about it constantly. When the son finished his four years, he failed the test given to graduates before they're allowed to intern. His father threatened to sue the med school, claiming that his son just wasn't good at test-taking. They actually caved under the threat of a lawsuit and let the son go on into internship and residency without passing the test that everyone else was required to pass, and he now practices in this city. His father told this story at least twice in my presence so I'm sure I have it straight. Do you think that's a good thing? What kind of ethics does this doctor have? Would you want to be his patient? I know the father is a liar and schemer but it seems the apple didn't fall far from the three.

I happen to know that another doctor practicing here cheated in college. In my experience, that's not unusual among pre-med students, either. How much cheating goes on in med school? We don't know. We don't know whether a doctor graduated in the upper tenth or the bottom tenth of his med school class when we hire them to look after our medical needs.

In any other situation, people who hire others know all about their grades and work history. We pay doctors, either directly or through our insurance, which we pay dearly for, so we are hiring them. Doctors used to be more aware of this, I think, and not have the God complex that many have had in recent decades, the attitude that they are doing us a favor to see us. They should realize that we are giving them business that is their livelihood.

Everyone knows there are good doctors and bad ones. That's true in every field, some are good at what they do, others aren't. But people put their lives in doctors' hands so bad doctors are a serious concern.

People don't complain about the good doctors, and there has been praise in this thread for good doctors. I have seen a few good doctors and have always praised them. If your husband is a good doctor, you shouldn't take it personally when people talk about bad doctors.

[knitter4democracy]

296. I'm so sorry for your friend.

Darn right he should've lost his privileges. That's a huge screw-up. Hubby had to run codes in residency here (community hospital, so no fellows to run them--the internal medicine resident did it), and there's no excuse for not checking on a patient to make sure she's stable.

I'm not saying that there aren't bad doctors. I've had a couple myself, and I have zero patience for bad care anymore. I get quite nasty about it if I have to. Luckily, my good doctor went into practice with three of the best in town after a year as a hospitalist, so I have a doctor I can really work with again.

What I am asking is for people to stop the generalized attacks calling all doctors murderers, all doctors in it for the money, all doctors Republicans, etc. Some very nasty things have been posted and generalized to include all doctors lately, and I don't think that's okay. I don't like attacks on any group, frankly, but this one's personal.

Oh, and I laughed out loud when you said we'd have the big house and the BMWs. Hubby's an internist, so he'll never make that kind of money. His med school loans won't be paid off for another twenty years or so (though we're trying to figure out how to pay them down sooner). I refused to get an expensive house in the "right" neighborhood because we flat-out couldn't afford the med school loan payments and an expensive house. We got ours in an older, wonderful neighborhood close to most anything, Hubby's still driving his beloved '05 Taurus (I recently had to get a new used car when my 2000 Outback's transmission started to go), and we switched our kids out of the Catholic school because we couldn't afford both kids in there.

You know what? I know many of the medical families in town, and most of the FPs, internists, and pediatricians live like we do--smaller homes, older cars, public schools. Specialists are the ones driving around in the fancy cars and living in the "doctor" neighborhoods, but Hubby will never make that kind of money. Even if he did, I wouldn't let him waste it on that kind of life. Too many people in this world are hurting and need help for money to get wasted on a BMW.

Oh, and we like going to the Democratic candidate rallies and county meetings and spotting the doctors. It's fun! :) Hubby used to offend one of the partners in his former practice with his Dean button on his lab coat (the guy's a Bushbot), but the patients and the nurses loved it, so he still wears it. More and more doctors are going Dem, from what we've seen.

[DemBones DemBones]

304. You're just living in the wrong part of the country

if FPs and internists don't make good money. Every doctor I know, and I know many, lives in a big house, FPs and internists included. Most own a lot of land, too.

They didn't have all that when their kids were in kindergarten, but my point was that in the future, you will be much better off financially than most people.

Teachers, on the other hand, are criticized a lot, blamed for kids failing when it's the kids who failed to study. They work long hours, including grading and planning at night and on weekends, plus all the extras like chaperoning dances, attending PTA meetings, sponsoring clubs, and teachers are underpaid.

Nobody makes big bucks teaching public school or teaching college, except at schools like Harvard and probably many Harvard faculty don't make much relative to the cost of living in the area.

I'm going to say it again "Most doctors would not be in medicine if it paid like nursing or teaching."

Maybe your husband would, but not many would. As I said before, since I majored in biology and minored in chemistry, I knew all the pre-med students and they all wanted to go into medicine to make a lot of money. Those who didn't get into medical school went to dental school or pharmacy school.

I suppose I should have gone to medical school as my advisor wanted me to. I had the grades and I'm sure I'd have had good MCAT scores. I didn't really want to be a doctor but I'm sorry I worked as hard as I did, earned so little money, and got so little respect for my work, both teaching college and public school, especially public school.

Doctors make less money in other countries where the medical care is better, by all the statistics. I know insurance is a big problem in the U.S. but some doctors, maybe a lot of doctors, are part of the problem. Drug reps are bad, too. I remember when you never saw them, I'm not sure there were any, but in the past twenty years, it's rare to go to a doctor's office and not see one, two, three, even four drug reps waiting to see the doctor. They induce the doctors to put patients on new drugs, even if the ones they are on are working okay. I'm tired of hearing "This drug is new and better." Next time I hear that I may say "Great, you take it."

I've read about doctors getting kickbacks from Big Pharma, too. You may reply that your husband doesn't do it, but lots of doctors do. If you're really angry about bad doctors, that's a group to be angry about. Big Pharma gives doctors good tickets to the Superbowl and trips to lots of nice places. Other goodies like that. A friend who's a doctor offered to have a drug rep get me tickets to see the Rolling Stones. Doctors themselves could stop that sort of thing but, as one doctor was quoted as saying "Giving a talk in Maui beats listening to some old lady talk about her aches and pains."

Newsflash, doc, that's what you signed on for when you went to med school: listening to patients, not getting free trips to Maui and being paid several thousand dollars to sell other doctors on prescribing a new drug. Notice, too, that it was "some old lady" he didn't want to listen to. Many male physicians are sexists, and quite a few women pick up the attitude in med school. And I know of two doctors and one pharmacist who did something very unethical to get where they are today. How many more are like that? I don't hate doctors, but I've observed that many of them don't really listen and don't like to be asked questions, and I hate that behavior. I think you do, too.



As for "doctor bashing," I really haven't seen it. There is a poster with a sig line about doctors killing 100,000 people a year, who argues with everybody on every thread. I put him on Ignore. There was a thread about people opposing mandatory check-ups as proposed by John Edwards but was there really doctor bashing there? If someone has been mistreated by a doctor, a police officer, a teacher, or anybody, it's not bashing to talk about it. It may or may not relate to the OP.

Doctor bashing is saying "All doctors are greedy" or making any other "All" statements, and jumping into every thread related to medicine, such as a story about a new treatment that is helping patients, and making negative comments about doctors. If people do that, alert on it, pointing out that the story has nothing to do with bad doctors. The mods can't do anything unless people alert on objectionable posts. They can't read all the posts looking for bad ones.

[knitter4democracy]

305. I'm a former teacher, and I hear ya on teaching.

I did a happy dance when I finally made over twenty grand a year. *sigh* Catholic schools may be good places to teach, but the pay's crappy. My mom, who taught public high school art for 33 years, was horrified by my pay. It was the only teaching job I could find there, and Hubby was in med school, so it wasn't like I could take one of the better paying jobs elsewhere I was offered.

Hubby took a year off of med school between first and second year and taught as a long-term sub in chemistry. He loved teaching, but he loved medicine more, so he went back. It sure helped with his respect of my job at the time, though, and he never, ever teased me about being tired or staying up late grading papers after that (well, unless I'd put my grading off). If he had loved teaching more, he would've stayed in it.

When we first started dating in college, Hubby told me that he'd started as a pre-med for the money. At the time, he also was working as a nurse's aid in a couple of nursing homes to pay for college, and he found that he loved taking care of his patients and wanted to do more to make them feel better than change their sheets and help them get cleaned up and dressed. He really changed around then when it all sank in that the money wasn't what it was all about, and it was fun to watch. He still feels that pretty strongly. I talked with him again last night about it, and he started telling me about this fascinating medical mystery patient he's trying to figure out how to help. The money's nice after years of not having any, but if the money gets between him and caring for his patients, I'll make sure he quits and goes into something else.

As for people complaining about crappy care, I'm all for it. That I don't mind, and I'll join right in. I've had my share of bad care, and I've done what I could do to change it. Hubby gets angry all the time when he gets new patients who have had poor treatment or who have been ignored or had their pain dismissed. He gets especially angry when older patients tell him that they've been mistreated. I've seen him say something to a nurse about her tone before, even, when coming in to meet him for lunch.

[Mojorabbit]

234. That is not true

my hubby was sued and was not guilty but his malpractice insurance decided to settle. He had no say and they then increased his premiums. Easy peasy to sue. They'd rather settle than pay for the cost of a court case.

[VLC]

235. It is absolutely true that's what I was told.

Maybe the laws in your state are different or the situation was different. That's what I was told.

[Mojorabbit]

236. It has to do with

the malpractice carrier. They decide whether to go to court or settle. The doc has no say. They will do whatever is cheaper for them.

[uppityperson]

243. The doctor has little say in what to do, court or settle.

The insurance co is the one that works with the lawyer to figure it all out.

[knitter4democracy]

216. They are fiction. Said so in JAMA and AMNews.

Seriously, I remember the articles saying that there was no such thing as a rash of "frivolous lawsuits." Those are both from the AMA. I thought it highly ironic, considering they then turn around and bash trial lawyers and such, but it was interesting reading.

I was assaulted by a radiology tech once. I couldn't sue for malpractice because of the reforms in the law a few years back. I couldn't go after her license, because she wasn't licensed by the state. I got really mad when the head of the practice blamed it on me, but I couldn't do anything other than talk with the police and file an incident report. What about all the lawsuits that never happen because of loopholes in the law?

[BlooInBloo]

224. Yup, and they don't police themselves, and.... etc. ad nauseum.

[likesmountains 52]

202. Good luck is right...I work in rural health care and can tell you that there are a very , very few

"bad" doctors here, and very few getting rich either especially Family Practice docs or pediatricians..I don't understand the doctor/nurse/hospital/cop hatred here.. And the constant "they kill 100,000 people a year" statement is very tiresome. I wish some of these posters would spend a 12 hour shift with me and see the providers I work with. I think I'll just start to ignore the threads, you can't really get some people to see things your way, and it's too disheartening to read the posts..

[uppityperson]

204. Yup.

pretty much is only 1 quoting that number though.

[Beausoir]

213. Good post.

Some folks have an axe to grind and like to take it out on Doc, or cops, or teachers...the list goes on and on.

[knitter4democracy]

217. I grew up in a rural area. Thank you for doing what you do.

:hug: Hubby's in a small city/town, and many of his patients are more rural, and he has a very heavy workload. Not nearly enough providers for the need.

I'm going to start ignoring those other threads, too. Just get too upsetting.

[OhioChick]

207. Some Doctors are

caring, decent individuals who are terrific at what they do. Others can't hold a candle to them. Sounds like your husband is one of the "good" guys. :)

[knitter4democracy]

220. Thanks. I think he is.

:)

He's in at the hospital again tonight for a family meeting about a patient's care. It's been an hour, so he'll be home in another hour or two. Pretty usual.

[OhioChick]

223. Having a Chronically Ill Child and Seeing Many Physicians.....

Your Husband is an endangered species. Hang on to him. :)

[knitter4democracy]

228. I plan on it.

:) We've had our moments, but we're in for the long haul now. :)

[LostinVA]

232. I bet he charges people who don't show up for appointments, too

I'M TEASING!

Great OP.

[knitter4democracy]

279. I needed that today.

:lol: Good one. :)

[BlooInBloo]

242. Can doctors stop all of the nasty preventable medical errors? Same answer.

[uppityperson]

244. Broadbrush bashing of all because some are bad is wrong. No matter what profession.

Even when I posted my "I hate my local police more" post, still I overall think cops are ok. Same thing here. Broadbrush bashing of a profession is wrong and does not mean that those who make errors should be not held accountable, but broadbrushing is wrong.

[BlooInBloo]

245. They commit the errors, they protect the error makers. Screw em....

.... And similarly for cops (sub abuse authority). And teachers (sub protect incompetent teachers).

As long as the various professions REFUSE to police their own, and REFUSE to accept outside policing, there is no alternative than to consider the entire profession as corrupt.

[uppityperson]

247. Some are bad. Had a cousin killed by malpractice. Most are not.

Of any profession. I also don't think all people colored (pick a color) are bad because I got beaten up by one once and they refuse to police themselves. Bigotry, broad brushing, prejudice, all the same thing.

[BlooInBloo]

248. They insist on freedom without responsibility - common thread in all 3 professions...

... I'll never be down with that.

[uppityperson]

252. Lawyers, Federal Workers, Cars salesmen, Food processors, computer makers, newspapers, water/sewage

It is not just them, and not all of any of them but yes, everyone needs responsibility. Even anonymous internet forum users.

[Kajsa]

250. Did you get a PhD in

Broadbrushing?

They are all bad- screw em!

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

251. Nah. Philosophy. Close, though. :)

[knitter4democracy]

282. They do their best.

They don't want to get sued. Most I know are scared of losing patients or hurting patients. We're in a smaller city, so if Hubby did that, word would get out, he'd get sued, and he'd lose patients, just like the few bad practices in town.

[Kajsa]

246. Thank you for posting this.

It's a breath of fresh air.

Thank your husband also, please.
He's one of the good guys.

I know there are many of them.
My doctor is one of them, also.

;-)

[treestar]

249. I'm a lawyer so

:nopity:

Seriously, I know what that feels like. Profession-bashing is OK everywhere, still.

[knitter4democracy]

283. It shouldn't be, though.

I get mad at the anti-lawyer stuff, too. One of my best friends worked hard to get through law school and pass the bar, my BIL is a lawyer, and my FIL has gone back to law school in his fifties. Good lawyers are worth their weight in gold, I think, and are worth every penny.

[nolabels]

290. Lawyers suck worse than Doctors

Just kidding :-)

Being a truck mechanic with thirty years experience this bashing of trade or occupation becomes quite humorous in retrospect. People should be investigating the field and interviewing others in the field before choosing someone to do business with :shrug:

[eridani]

253. We lead the world in medical mistakes because of our crappy information sharing

Thousands of insurance plans, and whenever you change jobs you are likely to be forced to change doctors in order to be able to even afford health care. No surprise that all those incompatible recordkeeping methods exact a toll.

I don't blame doctors at all for that. Single payer now!!

[uppityperson]

254. Then there is the problem of specialists not being able to coordinate care too.

Nice to have 1 GP/FP who can coordinate care between specialists, but it is getting more and more difficult since GPs/FPs are getting pressured to do more faster so they can't take the time they really need to be able to provide Good Quality Health Care sometimes. Specialists are great, but a main coordinator is necessary also.

[knitter4democracy]

284. Single Payer Now!!

Amen to that!

[Skittles]

266. who is trashing doctors?

should I kick some ass?

[knitter4democracy]

286. That Edwards gaff produced some nasty threads.

You can see some of it upthread.

:hug:

[Skittles]

297. OH TELL ME ABOUT IT

Not one of DU's finest moments. No INDEED.

[Hoof Hearted]

268. Thanks knitter! I'm headed into med school in a couple years.

Thanks to your hub and your family, too.

[knitter4democracy]

287. Yay! Go to Case Western!

It's freakin' expensive, but it's a great school overall.

Hubby would let you shadow him, too, if you want. Then he can write one of your recs for the application. He's done it for a couple of other guys.

[Swamp Rat]

269. This is the first thread about "anti-doctor crap" I have ever seen on DU,

and I've been reading DU almost daily since Spring of 2001. :shrug:

Bill Frist doesn't count. :P :D

[DemBones DemBones]

272. I don't remember any, either,

and I've been reading DU since right after it went online, just didn't post the first year.

There is a poster running around with a sig line that says "100,000 are killed by doctors every year" or something like that. Last night he was telling everyone it was easy to be thin. :eyes: Since he wouldn't answer questions I put him on Ignore and half of that thread and this one says "Ignored."

I've read posts about bad care from doctors in the Disability and Chronic Illness forums but not that many there, as best I recall.

[knitter4democracy]

288. Bill Frist doesn't count, that jerk.

He lost any credibility with me over that Terri Schiavo thing. Hasn't had any positive spin stuff in AMNews, either, I've noticed.

It started over the Edwards gaffe of saying people would be mandated to get annual checkups in his plan. Some of the threads got nasty.

[Romulox]

281. Lawyers get it worse than ANYONE. Who cares? You need to toughen up.

[knitter4democracy]

289. And they shouldn't.

Good lawyers are worth their weight in gold. Hubby's thinking of voting for Edwards (or Kucinich--hasn't made his mind up yet), and he knows other doctors who are as well. So much for all doctors hating lawyers.

Lawyers do good work and keep things fair. Yes, there are bad ones, just as there are in any profession, including medicine, but that doesn't mean that they're all bad. In fact, I'd argue that the vast majority is good to great. I don't know any bad lawyers, and we know many.

[bobbolink]

310. Yup, that's what we need---more toughness.

That's what's wrong with USians... just not tough enough.

Bomb 'em back to the stone age... get 'em tough.

:crazy:

[Beelzebud]

285. Can we please stop trying to limit free speech?

[bobbolink]

311. That's right! Say whatever comes to mind, and to hell with

civility!

AMEN!

need it be added...

:sarcasm:

[Ladyhawk]

295. You must never have tried to get decent medical care where I live.

The doctors here mostly suck. What I am about to relate are things I remember off the top of my head. Had I bothered to document half of what has happened, I'd probably have a binder thicker than the Lord of the Rings trilogy, War and Peace and all umpteen Harry Potter books.

When my father went to the doctor complaining about bleeding from the rectum, the doctor told him it was hemorrhoids. He didn't order a colonoscopy. Five years later my father was dead.

Right now I can think of three doctors, a nurse and a dentist who need to have their licences pulled for incompetence or outright criminal treatment of patients. Two of the doctors are psychiatrists.

I could go into all the trouble I've had trying to find decent doctors to treat my diabetes, fibromyalgia, degenerative disc disease, etc. Doctors sat on important paper work for many months despite repeated calls on my part, urging them to do their jobs. In one case it took me six months to get approval for an MRI. When I decided to have surgery because physical therapy wasn't working, I needed another MRI. This one took over a year while I languished in pain. Finally I had a doc at UC Davis send in the paperwork and I was approved almost immediately. (UC Davis docs don't suck.) Had I known I could have the specialist do the paperwork, I would have done it. Also, when you're waiting and being told it would be done "soon" or "we haven't heard back," you just wait. In that instance, the doctor never sent in the paperwork. I thought I was waiting on insurance. I only found out after I was approved what had happened.

In one case, a receptionist got angry with me and took it upon herself to deny a prescription. The doctor didn't fire her, didn't do anything to make sure such a thing would never happen again. A doctor is only as good as his staff.

A little cameo of what passes for health care here:

During the past month I've been sick out of my mind with sinusitis. My primary care physician refused to see me because he was too busy. I went to the emergency room. The doctor told me: 1) I had a viral infection that could last up to four weeks, 2) that green snot doesn't indicate a bacterial infection. He sent me home with a Rx for an inhaler. He told me to follow up with my primary care physician who still wouldn't see me. The whole time I was thinking, "This guy is so full of shit."

When I got the inhaler Rx filled, I asked the pharmacist how the doctor could "know" it was viral without a culture and sensitivity. The pharmacist said, "He can't." That's what I figured. I went home, hoping for the best but fearing the worse. Yeah, I got worse.

Incoming tangent:

Once, after suffering for over a year with outer ear infections, taking one antibiotic after another, I finally insisted the doctor culture the ear. He told me that the antibiotics would probably render the test meaningless. I figured if there were enough microbes to make me sick, there would be enough microbes to show up on an AGAR plate. I was right. The test showed pseudomonas was present, a very tough little bacterium that is hard to kill. The sensitivity found a drug that would kill it. After about ten days of the appropriate ear drops, I was cured. I haven't had an ear infection since.

I asked a friend in health care (who thinks that lack of insurance isn't the only reason our health care system sucks) why doctors don't do culture and sensitivity tests as a matter of course when appropriate. It's standard procedure if I take my parrot to the vet, even for a checkup. My friends said that it's because humans can tell you what's wrong. He laughed, "Yeah, as if you can tell your doctor exactly which microbe is causing you to feel the way you do and which antibiotic will kill it."

Doctors basically guess what's wrong with you. And many times my guess has been better than the doctor's.

Back to the sinusitis: Yeah, I got worse. Finally, the appointment date with my primary care physician came up. I was running a little late. I'd guess about seven minutes late. I thought about calling, but decided not to because it would just make me more late. Besides, I'd been a tad late on a few occasions and it had worked out. When I got there, they told me I'd have to reschedule. They never did tell me why. I assume it's because I was seven minutes late (right...like doctors never make their patients wait). I waited and waited and waited for them to give me another appointment. Finally, I just left. Later I called and despite being sick, the soonest he will see me is some time in October.

From what I have experienced, a lot of doctors 1) have a god complex, 2) think they're better than you because they make more money, 3) don't really care about patients because they're in it for the money, 4) are incompetent 5) don't treat patients with dignity. Obviously, not all doctors are like this, but there are a lot of bad apples in this community.

Finally, I pulled some strings with my friend in health care (who agrees with my assessment of the local doctors) and got in to see a nurse practitioner who has a very good reputation. Without being this blunt, he told me the emergency room doctor I'd seen was "full of shit." Viruses usually don't last four weeks and don't produce green snot. Without saying as much, he implied that doctors like to use the virus excuse so they don't have to treat you. I bet insurance companies pressure doctors to diagnose viral conditions.

Years ago I had another bout with chronic sinusitis. At the time I was a caretaker for a doctor who was my friend. Unlike many of the local doctors, she was competent, but only stayed in the area a short time. (I've noticed that decent, competent people want to escape from this area...) From her I learned that 1) green snot usually does mean a bacterial infection, 2) only certain antibiotics are useful for sinusitis, 3) because sinuses have poor circulation it takes a long time for antibiotics to do their job. Sometimes you have to be on them for three weeks or longer and if you stop, the little critters that grow back are resistant to any antibiotics you've recently used.

The nurse practitioner I saw prescribed Flonase, Augmentin (for ten days) and a cough suppressant. On the tenth day I felt WELL. Two days after I'd stopped the antibiotics, the symptoms reappeared. I made an appointment to see another nurse practitioner who worked in the same clinic and she tried to tell me it was either viral or allergies.

I didn't buy it.

Had it been viral or allergies, the antibiotics would not have worked. The problem was I wasn't on them long enough. I tried, as kindly as I could, to explain what I had learned about treating sinusitis from my doctor friend and reputable sites on the Internet(s). I tried to tell her that in cases of chronic sinusitis, a long-term antibiotic treatment is needed.

She got pissy. "What you're saying is you're not leaving here without an antibiotic."

"No, what I'm saying is that I don't believe the sinusitis is due to allergies or a virus."

She bitched at me some more. I asked to speak to the other nurse practitioner who had seen me first because he was the one who originally treated my condition. (Actually, I wanted to see him because this one was a bitch and didn't seem to know what the fuck she was doing.)

"He's busy. And you can't sit around here waiting for him."

"I hadn't planned on waiting for him. I would like for him to give me a call as soon as it's convenient for him."

She said she'd give him a message, but I'd bet a lot of money she never did. She said she would "let" me have an antibiotic, but I had only two choices and they were both antibiotics I'd been on in the last three weeks. I knew when I picked up the prescription it wouldn't work. I think she wanted to make sure it didn't work.

On the way out, I made an appointment with the other guy, but it was a week away. I talked to my friend who worked at the clinic, but he wasn't able to expedite matters. And the guy who is supposed to be my doctor still won't see me.

In the meantime, other doctors / health care providers I'd seen kept telling me to consult my primary care physician if symptoms didn't abate. I have. I can consult him in October.

This is a teensy-weensy, very small sample of what it's like to try to get decent health care here. It's like this CONSTANTLY, whether the health care provider is a doctor, nurse practitioner, physician's assistant, whatever. In fact, I've come to regard it as the NORM. I stopped documenting all the flubs, incompetence, apathy (and even malevolence) a long time ago. When I tried to seek redress when a dentist put my life in danger, no one gave a shit. When I tried to report a nurse for forcing a shot on me (had two cops hold me down), no one cared. She wouldn't tell me what was in the shot. When I was in the hospital, all she had to do was label me "combative" and she could do what she wanted. I wasn't doing anything but lying in the bed. I asked her to straighten my sheets which were uncomfortable and she said she had patients who were more important than me. This went on for a long time, so I finally got up to straighten the sheets myself. That's when she decided I was "combative." One of the cops told me to complain. I did, later, but no one gave a shit.

I've learned that in order to gain barely adequate health care, I have to manipulate and finagle, which isn't my standard modus operandi. I can manage this when I'm feeling halfway decent. It's pretty nigh to impossible from a sickbed.

It's been a week. My symptoms are worse. I've got green snot and blood coming out of my sinuses now. Yesterday I was so sick I felt I might faint. Today, I'm a tiny bit better. I've taken over my own health care with home remedies. I have no idea if they'll work or make me worse. :shrug: But I've had no choice.

Luckily, I'll see the other nurse practitioner tomorrow. I know I didn't exactly win friends and influence people at that clinic by questioning the diagnosis of the other lady. I just didn't know what else to do. Had she known I was the friend of a doctor there (he's a psychologist), she might have treated me with a little more respect. Perhaps not. Regardless, I'm used to getting zero respect from doctors and other health care providers. Maybe it's because I'm on disability and have to use Medi-Cal, which is for poor people. I don't know. All I know is that it's a miserable experience trying to find a decent doctor and that I'm sick to death of being treated like I'm nothing.

[knitter4democracy]

299. Hell, I'd be pissed, too!

Oh. My. God. That is awful!! That's beyond awful! There are no words for that!

Hmm. If you can, I'd try getting in with the ear, nose, throat clinic at UC Davis. This is beyond most general docs--at least, I would think so if there's blood. You need someone with a scope who can see what the heck is going on and lavage and take biopsies if needed. That might mean going to the ER there, though, in order to get in quicker. In fact, with feeling faint and blood like that (who knows how much is going down the back of your throat), I'd go there. That way, you'd get fellows and residents all trying to show off. Tell the ER doc you won't leave until the ENT doc on call sees you, and demand he really take a good look.

Hubby cultures everything. I tease him about it because he does so many we should own stock in those little trays. He wanted to do Infectious Disease for a long time in residency but decided against it so he would have more variety in his day as a general doc. If something doesn't respond to the first antibiotic, he cultures. Period. I know because I get the "fun" stories at dinner about the pus and such. Ick. Anyway, I'm sure he'd have cultured that long before now. That's ridiculous.

A year for an MRI?! Are you serious?! The mind boggles. What. The. Hell?!?! You should see the stack Hubby brings home at least once a week if he gets behind in his paperwork. Disability forms, MRI forms, insurance forms, test results, all of it. There's no way he'd let a patient go long without a test. He hasn't met a test he doesn't like (I tease him on that, too, and so do all the aides and nurses in the office, but it gives him the info he needs).

When I was in the hospital after my kidney surgery a year ago, I refused to let the lab tech draw my blood on the last day. The nurse got mad at me because the surgeon reamed her out because the night nurse didn't tell her I'd refused (and how was I to know he didn't include that in sign-out?). I stood my ground. That chick had me bruised from wrist to halfway to my shoulder after only two blood draws. I wish I could've had my best friend come in and do it, but I decided to refuse instead. She got snippy about it, and I think she would've gotten downright nasty if Hubby hadn't spoken up and reminded her that I had that right. I don't think she'd seen him sitting there. When I was in, we made sure I was never alone--even in that hospital, where he'd done residency and is a good one--not for a minute. It's too easy for something to go wrong, medication to be given to the wrong person or whatever, so you need an advocate sitting there. I did it for my mom as best I could when she was in for her bipolar going crazy, and then she did it for me with my two surgeries last year.

Hm. I don't know any docs out that way. Maybe we could get you back here. ;) Hubby'd get you all set. He wouldn't make you wait until October to get in, either. New patients, last I heard, have a two week wait in his office, less if it's something more urgent. Michigan's a pretty state, and both of my parents are from California, but I was born here. We'd take good care of you here. ;)

Hubby recommends Claritin and Mucinex (both OTC) for now until you can get in and get better care. He says antibiotics won't get in and kill it all until the snot's out. That's his theory that works in our family and for his patients. Obviously, without seeing you, he isn't sure, but he thinks antibiotics would be a good idea, since green snot often (but apparently not always) means a bacterial infection, but he's more concerned with it being too packed for the medication to get anywhere. Good luck, and PM me and let me know what happens.

[Ladyhawk]

312. Thanks. I'm scheduled for a CT scan this morning.

I'm very, very, very sick.

I finally got in to see the nurse practitioner who seems to actually care. It was bizarre. He seemed rather pissed with his colleague and told me it wasn't her call had I wanted to stay and wait for him that day. Unfortunately, the delay has made me very ill. Apparently, my ears are now involved. I feel faint and feverish.

I couldn't believe it when he got me in for a CT scan right away. I also couldn't believe it when he gave me an e-mail address. I've run into very few health care practitioners who care. It's refreshing. I just hope something can be done.

The CT scan is scheduled for an hour from now, so I have to get ready as best I can.

[Ladyhawk]

313. I think the balance of power needs to be shifted to the patient.

I've been thinking of the years of neglect I have suffered. With money or power I could have at least sought redress. As things stand now, these doctors and health care practitioners answer to no one.

Once, a dentist put my life in danger by misdiagnosing an abscessed tooth and refusing to take an X-Ray. He said, "You had one recently. Go home. It's a sinus infection." Ah, the irony. :) So, if I've hurt my leg, should a doctor rely on an X-Ray taken two weeks prior to the injury?

When I woke up the next day with a swollen face, my psychologist friend was the one who told me the dentist was full of shit and to go to the doctor right away. I had an infection in a very dangerous location.

After--what was it?--four root canal procedures, I decided to at least try to sue the dentist. I'd had quite enough from the local witch doctor contingent. Even though I had a case, it wasn't worth enough money, so I couldn't find a lawyer who would take it. I did get several letters urging me to pursue the matter before the statute of limitations expired, but not a single lawyer was interested. You see, I have no money.

If you have no money, you are a non-entity in this society.

I wager that people who are 1) in good health and 2) have money have a much more favorable view of doctors. Those of us who are in poor health and have no money have seen the system at its worst.

[AX10]

300. I agree. The AMA is a horrible pro-corporate crime ring.

They do not represent the vast majority of Doctors who entered the field on an idealogical basis of promoting the wellness of others.

:kick:/R

[knitter4democracy]

303. Fewer than half belong to the AMA.

Hubby got a free membership in med school. He joined, as he says, to keep an eye on them. I like reading AMNews, their weekly rag, though I'm ticked they never did an article on Dean during the last race but two on Frist. Grrr!

[bobbolink]

308. Remember the days of students rating profs?

I remember back in my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, when student would publish lists of their comments about various profs. It helped other students in deciding what to sign up for.

I've often thought that the same would be so very helpful for prospective patients. I suppose you could think of legitimate opposition to this, but.... really, I think the idea has merit. I'd much rather know how patients see them, than be referred by another dr.

Of course, with the profit system, we have very little choice anyway.

[knitter4democracy]

309. There are several websites.

They're not all up-to-date, I've noticed (one still has Hubby at his former practice, and a couple don't list him at all), but it gives patients a chance to rate doctors and write comments. I found them by Googling Hubby's name.