Rape isn't terrorism.

[cali]

Someone just informed me of that.

Let's make something perfectly clear, rape absolutely can be an instrument of terrorism, just as it can be an instrument of war. Rape terrorizes. And if you can't see that, you're blind.

[NC_Nurse]

1. .

:wtf:

[JitterbugPerfume]

2. for the 10,000 th time

Rape is a violent act which terrorizes the raped:hi: cali

[nashville_brook]

120. i'd add that it also terrorizes the community of women

otherwise there'd be so need for movements such as "Take Back The Night."

[spindoctor]

3. Terrorism is never targeted at individuals but at society at large

So in that context rape, like murder and assault, is not terrorism.

Isn't it enough that it's a crime?

[cali]

4. Of course, it's goddamn terrorism

It's been used as an instrument of terrorism for millenia. And duh, it terrrorizes society at large, in the most fundamental of ways.

Sheesh.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

124. It's terrorism WHEN it's used to terrorize populations.

When some random sick fuck uses it to get his jollies, it's not.

[LeftofU]

5. Wasn't rape used as terror weapon in Africa?

And I believe it's used in muslim nations ,too.

[AlCzervik]

6. read this and tell me if it changes your mind at all.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engafr540762004

[cali]

7. I can't believe that ANYONE on this board

would opine that rape isn't terrorism. Pathetic.

[AlCzervik]

9. sing it sister.

most disappointing.

[WindRavenX]

10. sadly...

...DU isn't full of progressives.

Some on DU still believe rape is just about sex, afterall...

[sam sarrha]

23. it is a matter of education.. when we educate it isnt intollerance folks, you have to keep repeating

[sam sarrha]

38. got to educate still in the 21st century and the noChildLeftBehind'ers are even worse, lost children

generation ...Fuck'd.. they are calling them.

[spindoctor]

14. Yawl are getting worked up over semantics

American Heritage Dictionary: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


Rape does not intimidate a coercing society or government and it is hardly ever used for ideological or political reasons.

So ok, rape is used as a weapon. But a basebal bat is also not terrorism.


Now why do I feel I'm gonna be accused of defending the act of rape next?

:hide:

[AlCzervik]

16. so raping groups of women is not terrorism? Women aren't part of society?

you don't see the threat of rape to groups of women as a terrorism tactic?

[spindoctor]

20. Fine! when large groups of women (or men) are raped to intimidate for political reasons its terroris

[AlCzervik]

21. ok!

[cali]

24. Historically, it's women that bear the

brunt of rape-as-terrorism, and it's common. And it doesn't have to be some designated large number either. But thanks for the grudging acknowledgement that rape can be terrorism.

[uppityperson]

26. Rape can be terrorism, can be used that way. Glad you agree with that.

[niyad]

50. as in, every military conflict?

[Katherine Brengle]

130. The personal is political.

That's not a new adage.

[cali]

18. You should be ducking

rape is widely acknowledged as a tool of terror- whether by state or independent actors. Every damn Human Rights organization on the entire planet will inform you of that. A dictionary definition of terrorism? Not so much.

And to state that rape in the context of war, or the rape of prisoners by kidnappers or gangs, doesn't terrorize society is shit. Of course rape can be used as a tool of terror against society at large. Look at how effective at terrorizing society a serial rapist is; now move to Bosnia or Rwanda or anyplace where atrocities aimed at terrorizing or destroying a designated group. It's terrorism.

[sam sarrha]

28. because you dont F'n get it... why are you arguing, terrorism is a tactic, rape is a tactic if terro...

what is the difference.. are you just contrary like to argue.. so assuming you are male from your stand..if someone strapped you over a table and rammed a broom stick or a dick up your ass and said they will be back for more.. your aren't terrorized...

[spindoctor]

41. No

But again let me ask the question why its not bad enough to be raped? Does labeling it as terrorism bring it on a higher plane? Is it not being taken serious now and will that improve when you put it in another category?

The OP asked a question, which I answered. Who's arguing?

[gollygee]

48. Then the victims of 9/11 were victims of just murder and not terrorism?

It isn't about "worse" or "better" for fuck's sake. It's a simple reality. Women are often raped en masse as an act of terrorism.

[cali]

52. It's not about "bad enough" . It's about

facts. Again, every human rights organization recognizes that rape is often used as an instrument of terrorism in times of war, by state actors and non-state actors alike. I doubt you'll find a credible scholar on subject that wouldn't endorse that pov. It has absolutely fucking zip to do with trying to "bring it on a higher plane". That's just moronic.

[Patchuli]

107. Because rape

is a 'gift' that keeps on giving, forever. Is it not terrorism unless it affects a group of individuals in your opinion?

[LeftyMom]

15. Actually, rape of the losing society's women and children is a typical act in war

so common that it's absence is likely more the exception than the rule (right to rape and pillage was often an official part of the payscale for fighting men, and implied in many cases where it was not spelled out.) In a historical context, the act had many advantages- it demoralized the enemy, created half-breed children who would ease the assimilation of the conquering society and divert resources that would otherwise be used to raise sons who might fight the occupiers, and served as a morale boost and form of payment for the victorious army.

In this context wartime rape is used to demoralize and weaken the victimized group and the intent is the same as terrorism.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. You explained it perfectly

I doubt it will have the intended effect but you did what you could enlighten the ignorant.

But then again, yawl are probably just an hysterical female and all het up over nothin'.

[Solly Mack]

19. I'm going to have to disagree

"Rape as a Tactic of War"

"What is "rape as a weapon of war"?
Rape of women civilians has been and continues to be deployed as a tactic of war to terrorize civilian communities and/or to achieve "ethnic cleansing," a tool in enforcing hostile occupations, a means of conquering or seeking revenge against the enemy, and a means of payment for mercenary soldiers."

[GeorgeGist]

33. spin much ...

asshole.

[stillcool]

67. I think something has happened...

to the english language and the definition of words. As a woman, and a survivor of some 'traumatic' events, the word 'terror' has never been connotative with that experience. "Terror" was a feeling, a sense. "Trauma" was an act, or the personal injury that resulted from that act.

[gollygee]

77. Terrorism is what happens to a group, trauma to a person

So an individual woman would certainly feel trauma. Women as a group could well feel terrorized, particularly in wartime situations where women are being raped en masse. Like Nanking, Bosnia, Rwanda, and now in Congo. But throughout history - the Crusades, etc. Raping and pillaging has always been part of war and is terrorism against the conquered people.

[stillcool]

91. Thank you. Now that I understand.

Amazing what a polite exchange of words will do.

[iverglas]

76. So the WTC wasn't terrorism, Oklahoma City wasn't terrorism ...

They were crimes, against the people killed and injured, and the owners of the property damaged.

Got it.

I kinda thought they were efforts to alter the behaviour of a large number of people, by making them afraid of further attacks if they didn't change their behaviour.


Fear of rape works to alter the behaviour of a rather large number of people. Like, most women in the world.

Indeed, each individual who commits a rape is not likely thinking goody, now all women in the world will bend to my will.

But every man who rapes a woman is making one woman bend to his will. And all women are at risk of having some man, in some time, in some place, force them to submit to his will in this way. And women's fear of this happening serves the interest of any man who wants women to bend to his will -- and of the social system built on women bending to men's will, and thus of men as a class, the beneficiaries of the system that serves them more than it serves women as a class.

What makes this work on a societal level is the tolerance of rape by the society in which it occurs.

It is only very, very recently in human history that rape has been regarded as a crime against women. Throughout most of human history, it was regarded as a crime against men -- against the father, husband or brother to whom the woman belonged, not precisely as property or slave, but as female family member, a class of thing unto itself. Rape, as a crime against women, was tolerated completely; it was only the injury to a man's interests that made it a crime.

That is tolerance of rape.

It is only about as recently that how children are treated by their parents became a matter of public concern; a child raped by her father could expect no more assistance from her society than a child beaten by her father.

That is tolerance of rape.

It is only much more recently that the rape of a married woman by her husband was formally defined as a crime.

That is tolerance of rape.

And it is only about as recently that women who complained of rape could even begin to expect to be treated in the same way as anyone else who complained of any other violent crime. In fact, when I was raped in 1974, the Criminal Code of Canada still expressly provided that a jury had to be cautioned that it was unsafe to convict the accused on the word of the complainant alone without corroborating evidence.

That is tolerance of rape.


When a society tolerates the commission of violent crime against a segment of that society that comprises a vulnerable minority, and when the commission of such crimes is widespread, that looks like terrorism.

Were the lynchings of people of colour in the US in years gone by not terrorism?

Did people of colour not understand the plain threat to their safety that every such murder was intended to convey? When there was no prosecution and punishment, did they not get the message that they were at risk of death because of who and what they were?

Do you seriously think that women have not got the message that we risk rape by reason of our very existence and nature?

We are at risk of a particular kind of violence because of who and what we are. And the toleramce of the behaviour that we are at risk of being victims of, by the society whose duty it is to protect us, is terrorism. It keeps us in our place, in the interests of those who benefit from us staying there.

[iverglas]

104. to clarify the language and concept: rape is *an instrument of ...* - persecution?

Terrorism is something that is hard to define, but everybody thinks s/he knows when s/he sees it. Here is a relevant bit of a definition from a Canadian statute that probably conveys what most people think of in this context:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/as/2001/c41/whole.html

"terrorist activity" means

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
(i) that is committed

(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and

(B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and

(ii) that intentionally

(A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,

(B) endangers a person's life,

(C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public, ...

It may be instructive to look at what the Rome Statute (and many countries' domestic laws) defines as a crime against humanity and war crime.

It would be generally reasonable to say that things that are defined as war crimes would be regarded as terrorism if committed otherwise than in the course of warfare.

http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/romefra.htm

Article 5
Crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court

1. The jurisdiction of the Court shall be limited to the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole. The Court has jurisdiction in accordance with this Statute with respect to the following crimes:

(b) Crimes against humanity;
(c) War crimes;

Article 7
Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

(g) Rape, ... or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on ... gender ... or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:

(a) "Attack directed against any civilian population" means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

Article 8
War crimes

2. For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:

(b) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

(xxi) Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(xxii) Committing rape, ...

(e) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflicts not of an international character, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

(vi) Committing rape, ...

When one segment of a population systematically abuses another segment of the same population, it is usually regarded as persecution. Persecuted groups are usually a minority, but surprisingly often in a majority.

When the persecution is severe and widespread and organized and violent, and its aim is to control the behaviour of the target population in order to achieve a social or political end, it looks like terrorism.

How organized do the activities have to be? Is the firebombing of a synagogue in a North American or Western European country by a single person terrorism, or just a crime? What if the person who does it belongs to a group that benefits from the effect on the Jewish community, or thinks it does? What if it is tolerated by the broader society, even if it is committed only by unorganized individuals?

As usual, there is no easy analogy for women among groups identified by skin colour or religion or ethnic or national origin. Men seldom want to eliminate women from the broader society. But men in that society, as a class, benefit from the effect of the fear and insecurity felt by women, as a class, which is to contribute to women's powerlessness.

It might be more accurate to characterize rape as an instrument of whatever phenomenon it appears to be associated with. In some places and times, it is an instrument of warfare, one that the world increasingly rejects now. In some places and times, it can be an instrument of terrorism.

In the case of our societies, there is no "widespread and systematic attack directed against any civilian population", since the population in question obviously refers to an entire population, and not a segment of a population.

In most places and times in human history, including ours, rape has been and is an instrument of persecution. It is an act committed by individuals against individuals, where the people committing the act are not necessarily acting in concert with anyone else or in furtherance of any particular social or political goal. It is an act of hatred.

The effect of persecution on its victims and on people like its victims, where the persecution rises to the level of this kind of interference with their personal security and creates the kind of insecurity that fear of such attacks creates, isn't much different from the effect of terrorism on its victims.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

86. It terrorizes women, isn't that enough? n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

90. And you don't think that rape is being used that way, right now?

Not just to terrorize one woman, but her entire family/community?

Look a little further. Watch what the Taliban and their cohorts in Afghanistan and Pakistan are doing, and how they're using it.

[Patchuli]

105. It seems a sure bet

that you would not know, personally. Am I wrong?

[me b zola]

109. Tell that to the women of Dahfur

Do you even know what's going on?

[Triana]

117. Abusive spouses TERRORIZE their partners EVERY DAY...

...and rape is part of that, sometimes - so YES, rape IS terrorism.

[eridani]

123. So, 9/11 was murder and assault, not terrorism?

I'd say that beating the shit out of someone in the 7-11 parking lot is not the same crime as beating the shit out of someone in front of a polling place.

[Katherine Brengle]

129. Rape and the fear of rape oppresses half of the population.

Half.

That's terrorism.

[Mnemosyne]

8. Tell them to tell that to my daughter. fuckers n/t

[cali]

11. It is painful to hear this

and I'm so sorry about your daughter.

[Mnemosyne]

55. Thanks cali. They terrorized and tortured her for several hours.

They are out of prison now after 8 and 10 years served. Two others were teflon, one a minor.

It's been a total nightmare since 1996 for her and for myself. She never feels safe and rarely sleeps well; yet she is attending college and raising her 6 yo son.

I find her so amazing. She has been a blessing in my life for 28y, even the rough parts.

And any filthy sob that doesn't believe rape is terror needs to read some transcripts from rape trials and walk in the victims shoes for a day, or better yet a night, which seems much harder to face.

The Fux news mentality is sadly quite common in our country. Blame the victims and a complete lack of empathy.

I've been told, "She should be 'over' it by now." by two puke sisters.

She has been told by her step-mother, another puke, "It's your fault because of the people you hang around with."

All I can say is one word:

karma.:woohoo:

[Midlodemocrat]

65. I'm so sorry. For you and for your daughter.

I have daughters myself and can only imagine what you have been through.

May you find peace. :hug:

[Mnemosyne]

116. Thanks, Midlo.

The guilt has been rough at times. If only I had done this or that, but time marches on, as does life.

The hardest has been seeing her suffer. Isn't that about the toughest part of being a parent in any situation that causes suffering in our children that we can't ease enough?

Thank you for the kind words. May all of our children stay safe and peaceful. :hug:


:kick:

[Triana]

118. "Blame the victims and a complete lack of empathy"

Yea this damned "blame the victim" mentality is rampant. I deal with battered/abused women DAILY and I hear from them often how the system, their family, "friends" and just people in general, BLAME them for having been abused, battered, raped.

NO ONE talks about the PERPETRATORS or the abusers - they just BLAME the victim - the person sitting or standing in front of them. I guess that's easier. Pffft!

[Mnemosyne]

121. Raped, "how were you dressed, where were you?" Beaten, then it's,

"what did you do to make them mad?". :banghead:

It is easier, because if they blame the victim for the crime they can keep deluding themselves into believing it won't happen to them because, "I'm careful and don't 'put' myself into those situations." Pffft! is right!

Too many sanctimonious pricks in the world.

Thanks for what you do to help the victims, Triana. :hug:

[Triana]

122. It is a particular brand of self-righteousness:

"Well, *I* make better choices than YOU do and *I* would never get INVOLVED with someone like that. WHY didn't you LEAVE him? You KNEW he was abusing you? WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU?"

:wtf:

It's ODD to me that people just completely OVERLOOK the ABUSERS/TERRORISTS/RAPISTS and go straight to victim-blaming.

ENDLESSLY frustrating.


EVERY PERSON who sanctimoniously makes comments such as the above, and I get them DAILY, NEEDS to "find" themselves in such a position - and UNTIL THEY'VE *BEEN* THERE -- UNTIL THEY HAVE WALKED IN THOSE SHOES - they will NEVER, EVER understand it. In which case they ought to shut their pie hole and stop blaming the victims/targets of abuse because they don't know what the HELL they're talking about.

WHO is worse? Rapists and abusers - or the people who BLAME their targets/victims and ignore the crime against HUMANITY that was perpetrated against them?

I can't decide.

GOD it's frustrating.

STILL I think that until and unless we CALL IT OUT, NAME IT, DEFINE it, and NOT LET IT GET PAST people's radar, nothing will change. What's sorely needed is education and enforcement. This stuff, both as individual cases and as a whole, as common as it is in society - in both war and peacetime and in EVERY country and EVERY strata of society - will NOT become VISIBLE until we make it so. Meanwhile, it's so COMMON it disappears and THAT is a crime against humanity.

[Mnemosyne]

126. I am still arguing -thru my mother- with my puke sisters about this very issue.

I am to the point where I believe that all of the chemicals in our lives have produced a type of brain damage among these idiots, or maybe Fux news has subliminal messages in their programming. The coldness toward victims is frightening and disturbing.

My daughter was attacked twice; once at 14 and again at 17. Since she was attacked twice in three years my puke sisters feel it must be her fault. She was a 14yo girl that lied about where she was going and that makes it her fault?! She 'deserved' it?! The second time it was a home invasion of an apt. she was 'sitting'.

Then I hear, "I was raped and got over it."!!

I understand the frustration you carry, Triana, too well.

"UNTIL THEY'VE *BEEN* THERE -- UNTIL THEY HAVE WALKED IN THOSE SHOES" - exactly.

There are sooo many pie holes that need to STFU.

I haven't really spoken with those 2 sisters since our father died in 2004. Somehow with him gone, they discovered a deep need to attack my daughter for being raped. It is unbelievable to me that we had the same mother, they are so hateful with no compassion. Wait, I'm wrong. They do have 'compassion' - for little white babies and their "equals".

I have faith in the karmic law of the universe. Send out bad energy, it does come back. I have 2 nieces and hope it doesn't happen to them for their parents viciousness and cruelty. If it does, I will be there for them when their parents turn their backs.

What is sadder still is the fact that almost every woman I know has been raped at some point in their lives. Most never reported it because of the idiots out there that would have blamed them.

Hell, we've been culturally and biblically trained to blame ourselves! Says too much about this country and the world, none of it good.

Jesus wept. I'm not Christian, but those two words tell the tale of this world.

Keep on sister! :hug:

[Solly Mack]

12. (((vickiss)))

(((Your daughter)))

[Mnemosyne]

57. (((Solly)))

:hug:

[wellstone dem]

32. And to mine

despite years of counseling I doubt that my daughter will ever live without a feeling of terror. I always strongly supported efforts to end sexual assault, but never understood what it did to people until its terror became a part of my family. My daughter doesn't understand why most of the time I feel safe. She almost never feels safe....never....that is terrorism!

[Solly Mack]

42. (((wellstone dem & daughter)))

[Mnemosyne]

59. wellstone dem, I hear you hard.

My daughter went to counseling a few times, but feels that all of the testimony she had to give in court was the end of ever really talking about it again. She never feels safe either and I seriously doubt she ever will again until they are dead. And you know what thoughts crossed my mind once in awhile over the last 11 years.

It's been tempting... But she needs me, as does my grandson. They are safe from me, as long as they never come near her again. Then the gloves would be off of this lifelong pacifist.

PTSD is pure hell.

Please hug your dear one from me. It's hard for my child to even let someone hug her. It's gradually getting better, very slowly.

:hug::cry::hug:

Amazing what people can survive and still function. We survive. :hug:

[wellstone dem]

61. Thanks Vickiss and Thanks Solly and Mandate

This whole thread had me sad, but your posts made me cry. I needed to do that.

[Mnemosyne]

72. It does help healing to cry. Somedays not so easy

to stop and other days impossible to start.

:hug:

[Mandate My Ass]

40. sorry about your daughter and wellstone dem's daughter

Peace to all of you and your families who have to deal with the aftermath of such a terrifying and misunderstood crime.

[Mnemosyne]

63. Thank you, Mandate. I've learned that all any of us can do is take what comes,

deal with it and move on as best we can. Peace truly must be found inside first to survive.

[cgrindley]

13. Rape can also be genocide

as we learned during the Bosnian War.

[spindoctor]

22. no it cant

Rape is rape and genocide is genocide.

I guess I should just get the hell out of this thread because reason doesn't quite seem to be the main motivator here.

But maybe someone can tell me why it is even important that we should put a new label on rape? Rape isn't a bad thing anymore?? Is it worse to be terrorized than to be raped??

[cali]

29. I agree that rape isn't genocide though it's often

part of a genocide, but your comment that reason isn't the main motivator here is absurd. You're the one whose reason and reasonbleness if failing. As was repeatedly pointed out to you, in response to your claim that rape isn't terrorism, there are numerous sources documenting that it is. Do you have any sources that repudiate this? No, because there aren't any.

And it's not a new claim, it's a millennia long established FACT.

[Mandate My Ass]

31. Yes. Please take your "reasoning" elsewhere

You're apparently not amenable to reason that doesn't fit in with your outdated notions and ignorance of the issue being discussed.

[cali]

34. Unbelievable ignorance.

Shocking, really.

[Midlodemocrat]

66. Actually kind of mild compared to what I've seen

here lately. Extremely disappointing to say the least.

You would think we would be able to spend our time educating the other side, not people here.

[Mnemosyne]

73. Word. n/t

[sam sarrha]

35. in the Balkans rape was genocide, women were murdered by their own families if it was even thought

they were rape, a woman thought to be raped or raped was shunned and could never marry in her culture and would most definitely have her throat cut by a father or brother or husband

genocide can be the destruction of a culture... like in Tibet by the Chinese

[uppityperson]

27. How can rape be genocide? I am asking seriously.

thanks.

[sam sarrha]

36. right above ya

[uppityperson]

45. rape or say you raped so the women would be killed? Got it. Thanks.

[Withywindle]

53. Yup and it's also used as a weapon in race warfare

Making a woman maybe bear the child of the enemy, a "half-breed" that would be a source of shame in the culture. An attack on "ethnic purity." Even a type of forced assimilation at its very crudest and cruelest.

[cgrindley]

89. That sort of use of rape dates back to the old testament

lots of times there are battles where men are killed and women used as sex slaves and/or wives. It's a common enough trope to have mythological resonance in a number of cultures, eg the rape of the sabine women.

[cgrindley]

85. I don't know the history of rape as genocide precisely but

I seem to remember reading at the time that it was new development in that particular war. And on edit I have to say that I mean from a religious point of view, capitalizing on "honor killings". Otherwise, rape as a tool in war, even as a tool to take over a culture by rape has deep roots... as I've mentioned... the Rape of the Sabine Women.

[Forkboy]

25. Most people think of terrorism as something against a political movement,system,etc.

I think using it this way is kind of a blurring of terms,but I can see how it would still fit.It certainly qualifies as terror against a person.

Interesting post.

[cali]

30. One more time: Rape is one of the oldest and most well established

instruments of terror.

[Forkboy]

44. You can say it a hundred times.

I wasn't arguing with you. :shrug:

I was saying how it's usually used and the meaning that's usually taken.

[etherealtruth]

37. "Someone just informed me of that"

That "someone" is an idiot

[AlCzervik]

39. and that pretty much wraps it's up.

:thumbsup:

[sam sarrha]

43. no not an idiot.. just uninformed, but it is all better now isnt it..??

change is painful, better here than at a party, welcome to the human Race

this is why the Fundamentalists Christians done want to believe in evolution, they dont want to grow and evolve into a World View where there is mutual responsibility and constant growth.. it is too painful for a tribal society.. and when their children get a world view the cant go back

read ken Wilbur's.. a brief history of everything

keep on growing it gets easier with experience, dont let it get you down

[etherealtruth]

49. If that "someone" is here ...they are choosing to be uninformed ...

...if they really believe that.

Choosing to remain uninformed equals idiocy (in my mind at least).

[mentalsolstice]

46. Don't even get me started!

x( I've worked with female and male victims...it can be about a lot of things...but it's always a power thing, from the victim's view.
on edit: And terrorism is about power...whether it's al Queda, or the Bush regime.

[zazen]

47. rape in "peacetime" reflects/enacts the political ideology of male dominance

whatever the sex of the victims. If patriarchy isn't primarily about power relations (politics), then I don't know what is.

MacKinnon has a great chapter in her latest book called "Women's September 11th."

"Because so much violence against women takes place in what is called peacetime, its atrocities do not count as war crimes unless a war among men is going on at the same time. Instead of being regarded as war crimes--as beyond the pale, if to some degree inevitable in exceptional contexts--acts of violence against women are regarded . . . as banal. . .

"The threshold legal barrier to addressing male violence against women internationally has been that both the perpetrators and the victims are private persons, termed nonstate actors. But Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda network . . are also private citizens. . . As to September 11th, state action has not only been not proven; it has so far barely been credibly alleged." (pp 262-263, _Are Women Human?_ (2006)

[sam sarrha]

51. peace time is a relative concept, if you live in a gang ridden neighborhood it is warfare, and being

in a violent environment seeing violence and hearing it even for a short time causes permanent changes in the structure of the brain and permanent behavior changes..

this has been documented many times and i believe those changes can lead to violence against women and children. the constant bombardment of of violence and fear is a perpetrated system of mind and behavior control by the neoCons thru the media.. that is why they keep sex off the TV so it cant be related to the media conditioning and mind control.. but sexual violence is related to general environmental violence because of the physical changes it causes in the brain..

[Jed Dilligan]

54. Prison rape is terrorism.

Systematic military rape is terrorism.

But not all rape is terrorism. Most rape is just standard interpersonal violence, evil, terrible, but not terrorism.

Why are you eager to contribute to the creeping definition of terrorism to encompass everything we don't like?

Are you inspired by the War on Terror?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

92. Why is prison rape not "just" standard interpersonal violence?

Why does it rise to level of terrorism, while individual - and gang - rapes outside of prison do not?

[Jed Dilligan]

95. Because it is perpetrated, arranged, or condoned by guards

to keep the inmate population in check.

I don't think men are in a conspiracy to keep women under control by systematically raping them.

[Mandate My Ass]

96. Rape occurs in women's prisons too

Both by men and women. :wtf:

[Jed Dilligan]

102. Of course it does,

and my statement applies in that case equally well. Does opposing cali's statement cast me as a woman-hater/man-defender somehow?

I am not defending men or rape, I am opposing what looks to me like another instance of "creeping" definitions--concepts like "war" and "terror" expanding in the service of the militarization of everyday life.

on edit: looking back at my post I can see how you misinterpreted it. By men I meant men in general, in the population, on the streets, not specific groups of men targeting specific groups of women.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. But it's only terrorism when the victims are male

Female victims are "just" the result of standard, interpersonal violence. They're "just" fulfilling their natural purpose, which is to be the recepticles of sexual violence.

[Jed Dilligan]

113. You just love making up fights in your head

and finding random strangers to fight them with, don't you? How's that working out for ya?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

106. So a lot of individual men just "happen" to use the same tactic to exert dominance over women?

Where do you suppose they get the idea from? A vacuum?

BTW, not every thing that happens systemically is the result of an organized conspiracy. I mean, I seriously doubt you would attribute the entrenched racism in this country to something like that, but I think you would agree that there is a tacit agreement among many Caucasians to continue to perpetuate it. Surely, you don't think it's "just standard interpersonal violence" do you?

[Jed Dilligan]

110. Once again, the discussion strays

from what is terrorism, actually. Are there any counterterrorism strategies that you would apply to the problems you bring up? No? Then what use is it to call it "terrorism," other than dropping a political buzzword?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. Interesting, and telling, response

You seem to suggest that it's unthinkable to to even consider strategies to stop men from raping women. Therefore we should just just accept it as a routine occurrence.

Great. :thumbsup:

[Jed Dilligan]

112. Stop putting shit on me.

What COUNTERTERRORISM strategies can be used to prevent rape or racism, which you also cite?

Answer: None, unless the racists or rapists are organized and acting as terrorists.

You bow to the right every time you use "war" or "terror" as a metaphor for our collective problems and what we should do about them.

Then again, maybe you actually think that an intelligence network should be conducting surveillance of all men, trying to determine the next place they're going to commit a rape... Since we're all potential "terrorists" in the War on Rape.

It's been working so well to fix this country's drug problems, so why not?

:sarcasm:

[spirit of wine]

56. A Thread Worthy To Follow

I need to know more on this subject, but think rape would be used as a form of terrorism on individuals while other larger terrible maladjusted behaviors may be happening within the society as a whole, at the same time. This is, unfortunately, not an either/or, but an in addition to kind of social problem that even wars of choice cannot cover up. If this does not get addressed up front our hope for families will never materialize.

[stillcool]

60. Terrorism? I thought...

terrorists were people with bombs that didn't have an air-force. Now rape...rape is a personal assault. Rape is about power or lack of, control, and anger. I would think rape committed in a war zone would be pretty much the same, but on a more violent, inhumane scale. I've never considered trauma to be terror...and for my entire life the effects of rape has been defined as 'trauma'. The use of the word 'terror', was pretty much confined to scary movies, or at least something far less personal than 'trauma'.

[cali]

62. uh, where the fuck do you think

trauma comes from? Of course rape can be a tactic of terror. No rape is not always terror. But yes, it's got a long and terrible history of being used as such.

Rape of the Sabine women ring a bell?

[stillcool]

71. Hey...who are you?

I know what rape is...it's rape. I was traumatized....I suffered 'trauma'...it was a 'traumatic' event. In the years that have passed perhaps, trauma has become terror. Back in the day 'terror' was what you felt when you faced the person by who you were 'traumatized'. Go take your self-righteous attitude elsewhere...

[cali]

74. First of all, sorry you were raped.

Second of all, I'm not claiming that all rapes are terrorism, though some on this thread are making an eloquent case for that. I'm saying that rape is a frequent tactic to terrorize a group of people. You don't have to be a historian to know that. And that you don't like my attitude is scarcely something that's going to keep me from speaking out about something I know to be true. So the rape is rape line, is a little bit lacking.

[stillcool]

82. Pardon me...

I didn't realize speaking out about something required such incendiary language, or attacking those who's interpretation of a word is different from your own. Do you think gang rape is a different thing than rape? Born of a different mentality? Other, separate, not related. Ah, on second thought. You are not someone I care to discuss anything with.

[Mandate My Ass]

80. I know what rape is too. I was raped.

My personal experience was not terrorism. It was a disgustingly violent crime carried out by a coward who drugged my drink even though he was about 90-100 pounds heavier than me and could have easily overpowered me.

It doesn't mean that rape of women by an occupying military force is not terrorism, because even the experts agree that that's exactly what it is.

[stillcool]

84. Why is it ....

that what happens personally, and what happens collectively are two entirely different things? Do we human beings, experience the same act, regardless of an attackers mind-frame? Is my attacker less of an attacker because he was coming home from a war, rather than being in one? Were his intentions different? I must have a serious language problem. I was under the impression that what I felt when I saw my attacker was 'terror'. That 'terror' was a feeling, and that 'rape' was an 'assault', a 'trauma', a 'traumatic event'.

[Mandate My Ass]

87. Just as there are a myriad of motives for murder

and are taken into consideration when adjudicating the crime, there are similarly different motivations for rape. Some I imagine are more inhumane or racist than others but more importantly intended to provoke the feelings of shame and terror to a larger population than just the victim.

I can put my personal experiences aside and judge dispassionately for myself that another's experience was significantly different on a societal level.

Thank goodness I didn't have to worry about family members murdering me to keep dishonor from the family name. Many women face that particular terror after the initial trauma.

[stillcool]

97. Thank you...someone up-thread explained...

the difference to me in much the same way you have...as a crime against an entire society, rather than an individual. I appreciate your polite explanation, and can most definitely see the difference.

[Mandate My Ass]

98. Peace and thank you for your kind response

IMHO, DU is the best place on the internets to learn. I know I do and it humbles and impresses me every day to read what other DUers have to say on a multitude of subjects. :hug:

[stillcool]

100. it's amazing...

a rational and thoughtful explanation works wonders.

[derby378]

64. WTF?

Depending upon the intent, rape can be any number of things - and they all suck.

[Toasterlad]

68. Of Course It Is.

Just as gay-bashing is an assault against the entire gay community, male-female rape is an assault against all women. It is a tool to make them feel powerless and weak. It is absolutely an instrument of terrorism.

[cali]

69. not according to several people on this thread who

despite being informed otherwise, cling to their own disturbingly narrow definition of rape. And thanks for the apt comparison.

[ismnotwasm]

79. Interesting isn't it?

In a sick kind of way. Another way to put it; WHY is rape not terrorism? There is no definition of terrorism I can think of, have read about, or has been put forth on this thread where rape doesn't fit the definition.

[ismnotwasm]

75. Well put

Thank you, thank you.

[Solly Mack]

78. Precisely

[Mnemosyne]

81. Word, TL. And good thread cali. Thanks. n/t

[spirit of wine]

83. People are not just going to forget

what happened. This is because people are not objects but living beings, yet some treat others with the disrespect that these memories never fade as easily from the scene of a crime like some may want. treating people better will alleviate these discussions and getting proper health care for those in need, like all of us, may help give us a better footing.

[JerseygirlCT]

88. Tell that to the women in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan

Or Sudan (and far too many other places).

It's absolutely terrorism.

(I know you're not arguing the point, but geez! What idiot told you that?)

[cali]

93. It doesn't matter who told that to me

just take a look on thread and you can see there's more than one person here, arguing that rape isn't terrorism.

[Mandate My Ass]

94. And this is tame compared to some

I had to take a week or two off during the Kobe Bryant/Duke cases.

Sad, sad, sad.

[JerseygirlCT]

99. Yeah, I know. It was really more of a rhetorical question nt

[aikoaiko]

101. Even in countries like the US, many women feel the terror of rape.

Whether they be past victims, almost victims, or women who fear they could be victims. It may not be organized terrorism, but the effect is similar.

[H2O Man]

103. Of course it is.

No question.

[fujiyama]

114. I read the exchange and I agree that poster is an idiot

Granted, he also could never admit that murder of civilians is terrorism either so there's not much to expect from some people (the sorts that defend the Taliban as some sort of freedom fighters).

[LeftishBrit]

115. Rape is certainly often used as an instrument of terrorism

I don't see how anyone could deny that?

[femrap]

119. Not only blind,

but cruel and just like Bush.

[justanaveragedude]

125. which side defines terrorism?

It all depends how you define terrorism.

Is it?

a) defined by how it affects the victim and whatever class he/she belongs to? If so almost any random act of violent crime can be considered "terrorism", that's a very broad brush.

or

b) defined by the intention of the person or people who commit the act. That's obviously a much more narrow definition.

If you accept the first definition then yes rape is an act of terror as I'm sure that reasonable people can agree that one woman raped will on some level "terrorize" a number of other women.


If you accept the 2nd manner of defining terrorism then rape would only be "terrorism" when used with the specific intent to terrorize a community. Then rape in the context of war and occupation would be terrorism however, the drunk college kid that had way too much to drink and didn't know when to quit is not terrorism since his intention was not to incite terror among a class of people (even if that was the result).

[cali]

127. Agreed, which is I said

rape can be a tool of terrorism in my OP

[Katherine Brengle]

128. Rape IS terrorism. It's the most pervasive kind of terrorism in the world.

[Xenotime]

131. I agree.

Rape changes that person forever.

[Swede]

132. To terrorise a population,any method can be used. Rape is probably one of the most common.

It's been like that for a long time.