Bill Maher: "Ethanol is a scam."

[Holly_Hobby]

"It's a scam to funnel money to Archer Daniels Midland." As heard on Larry King's interview of him this week.

From Wiki:

...

In May 2006, Patricia A. Woertz became CEO. Formerly of Chevron, she is expected to focus on developing ethanol and biofuels. In February of 2007 she became Chairman of the Board at ADM.

...

ADM's receipt of federal agribusiness subsidies have come under criticism. According to the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, "ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30."<7>

ADM's lobbying and campaign contributions have encouraged the continuation of the United States federal sugar program (of trade barriers and price supports) by Congress, costing US consumers roughly $3 billion a year. ADM also lobbied to create and perpetuate federal ethanol subsidies. Some commentators have concluded that the ADM experience demonstrates the need for campaign finance reform.

...


In July 2005, the International Labor Rights Fund filed suit against the Nestle, Archer Daniels Midland, and Cargill companies in Federal District Court in Los Angeles on behalf of a class of Malian children who were trafficked from Mali into the Ivory Coast and forced to work twelve to fourteen hours a day with no pay, little food and sleep, and frequent beatings. The three children acting as class representative plaintiffs are proceeding anonymously, as John Does, because of feared retaliation by the farm owners where they worked. The complaint alleges their involvement in the trafficking, torture, and forced labor of children who cultivate and harvest cocoa beans which the companies import from Africa.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland

ADM has also been investigated for price fixing, with their chairman going to federal prison in 1999, and ADM was fined $100 million. In 2005, ADM paid $400 million to settle an antitrust suit.

[Lasher]

1. The unfettered 'free' market at work.

All corporations need to be kept on a very short leash, in stark contrast to the policies of Junior and his cronies.

[KittyWampus]

2. Well, smaller farmers think they'll make $. However, they are being pushed out of real estate market

as ethanol policies/subsidies mean land becomes more valuable.

Ethanol, no matter WHAT plant it's made of, uses way more energy to produce and then distribute.

[ThomWV]

8. The Real Estate market got shot in the ass last tuesday

Wild land speculation got shot dead in the ass last week - at last!

[geek_sabre]

3. I agree that ethanol is a scam

It takes just as much energy to produce it as you get out of it, and it doesn't burn much cleaner than oil. Ethanol is a step backwards.

[youngdem]

4. Ethanol is indeed a SCAM. Big, fat SCAM

It is delta negative on energy.* (so far)

It makes food much, much more expensive.

It takes food off the table and puts it in the gas tank.

Ethanol is NOT an efficient fuel, and does NOTHING to address carbon issues related to global warming.

Ethanol is NOTHING more than a scam cooked up by ADM, some politicians and some corn farmers, and it has legs, because it allows politicians to go into Midwestern farm states and say they are for something that is going to enrich farmers - which it does, at the expense of EVERYONE for the benefit of ONLY the farmer.

Plus, it does next to nothing to reduce our dependency on foreign fuels, and it drains TENS OF BILLIONS away from REAL, renewable, beneficial, carbon neutral energy generation, such as solar, wind, cleaner nuclear, fuel cells and pure electric cars. THESE are what we should be doing, not running our cars on FOOD.

Now, if they could create algae ponds that would generate biomass, and IF they get the refining technology to quit being so energy intensive, then I might support it. But right now, there isn't a SINGLE benefit to the public. ONLY to farmers and politicians.

[johnaries]

15. It is NOT delta negative.

That was according to only ONE study that was later debunked by several studies.

It DOES lower carbon output and it DOES lower dependency on imported oil.

I agree we shouldn't use corn, and there are other alternatives available today and more "just over the horizon" that do not cut into the costs of food.

I agree we should take a mutli-platform approach including solar, wind, and fuel cells. NOT NUCLEAR. There is no good solution to deal with nuclear waste.

[KittyWampus]

16. just curious, does lower carbon output factor in distributing ethanol across country

once it's made? The carbon needed to get materials to farms?

Not being bitchy, just asking :)

[johnaries]

21. Yes, if you replace the fuel used to transport it with ethanol.

Why would you use gasoline to transport it?
Although most of the fuel would be transported by diesel-powered engine, and bio-diesel and Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel greatly lowers the carbon output.
So distribution is not an issue at all. This is a red herring.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

25. The technical problems associated with disposing of nuclear waste are difficult

But they are far from insoluble.

Fusing the waste into glass blocks and burying them in geologically and hydrologically inactive strata works quite well.

It is the *political* aspect of disposing of nuclear waste which is the real stumbling block.

[johnaries]

32. And how much energy does it take to fuse them into glass and

bury them? I have never heard of this solution. You say it "works quite well" but has it ever even been done? If so, why aren't we doing that now instead of trying to bury it in Yucca Mtn.? And where do you find "geologically and hydrologically inactive strata"? No place on this planet that I know of.

The *political* aspect of which you speak is the politics of health and safety.

[LTR]

22. So, where does that 'pure electric' power come from?

Gee... coal?

That opens up another can of worms. Granted, more turbine power could be used, but then we have to worry about birds and the whole NIMBY thing. Still, I like wind power. But we're haven't even come close to scratching the surface on that, so right now, we're using coal, another limited resource that's terrible for the environment. Not to mention the number of people who have lost their lives mining it.

Ethanol is not very efficient right now. Far from it. But we should support technology (enzymes) that help to extract even more energy from plants. We also have to take a look at whether corn is really the answer here, or should more of an emphasis be put on things like sugar cane or switchgrass.

Someday, ethanol could factor in to our fuel needs, though right now scientists have only scratched the surface.

[Cobalt-60]

36. To make it pay

corn has to be distilled with solar energy.
To make it pay better, put your corn into tortillas and distill alcohol from sugar beets or sugar cane.
Corn, as I recall, is at best 150 gallons per acre per crop.
Sugar cane or beets are 250 gallons per acre per crop.
And it always makes sense to distill with solar heating.

[seemslikeadream]

5. SCAM

[thunder rising]

6. Corn ethanol is a scam. Brazil proves sugar is effective..

wiki
Brazil’s 29-year-old ethanol fuel program uses cheap sugar cane, mainly bagasse (cane-waste) for process heat and power, and modern equipment, and provides a ~22% ethanol blend used nationwide, plus 100% hydrous ethanol for four million cars. The Brazilian ethanol program provided nearly 700,000 jobs in 2003, and cut 1975–2002 oil imports by a cumulative undiscounted total of US$50 billion.<1> Today, Brazil gets more than 30% of its automobile fuels from sugar cane-based ethanol.<2>

[KittyWampus]

17. Any crop, not just corn, is ineffective.

[alarimer]

7. He is right, at least for corn-based ethanol

I have no idea why we insist on using corn to make ethanol when we can use almost any plant product. You can even make it out of the leftover stems and leaves. It must have something to do with agricultural subsidies. Huge corporations make millions off those subsidies; they do not necessarily help the small farmer.

[ThomWV]

9. But so is 'the hydrogen economy', electric cars, and anything you put on your roof

Well, actually the solar collectors on the roof is a pretty good idea, but all of the rest of it - and I mean all of it - is pure bullshit. Almost all of the proposed fixes for our energy woes are perpetual motion machine types of scams.

[MadHound]

12. Wow, that's a broad brush statement

And like most broad brush statements, it is erroneous. Granted, none of the hydrocarbon alternatives are ready for prime time right now, but many of these alternatives are quite viable. Given that oil is going to be ever more expensive, and that we desperately need to reduce our carbon footprint(or die out), we can't continue to rely on a hydrocarbon energy plan. We're have got to start the transition from oil/coal/gas to solar, wind and the other range of alternatives now, or we're going to be in for a world of hurt by the end of this century.

There is enough harvestable wind energy in this country to power it for a long, long time. Biodiesel, using algae as a feedstock, can provide a very good bridge fuel for transportation. Both of these technologies are ready to go, easy to implement, and will benefit immediately from the economics of scale.

The hydrogen economy isn't viable now, I give you that. But the potential for hydrogen, especially combined with wind and solar, is immense and the point where it becomes economically viable is quickly approaching. What the greatest drawback is now is the lack of political and corporpate will. With oil men in office, and the entire govenment subservient to corporate America, making the changes needed to quit the oil habit is going to be tough. About the only alternative energy lobby with enough clout right now is the wind sector. Hopefully through public action and more corporate pressure, we can wean ourselves from oil.

I would suggest that you go do some research before you issue such broad brush condemnations. There's a good book out there called "The End of Oil", it's a good place to start.

[robinlynne]

28. and the must see "who killed the electric car"!

[12string]

26. renewable eco-friendly energy

HEMP OIL

[cgrindley]

10. Reduces the shelf life of gasoline

before all the additives, gas could last 20 plus years. Now, it's usually unusable by 6 months to a year without fuel stabilizers.

[Beelzebud]

11. He is correct, and everyone will notice once food prices take a hit from it.

[sarcasmo]

13. There was a great article on this in Rolling Stone two or three weeks ago.

[VLC]

33. Was there a conclusion?

[bread_and_roses]

14. so, which of our candidates support ethanol, and liquid coal?

genuine question, I don't know/remember. Both are scams.

[KittyWampus]

18. All of them will because corn and coal states are must-wins.

[alteredstate]

19. Ethanol is the snake oil of the 21st Century. eom

[dipsydoodle]

20. I have read

that a large proportion of of the USA's total landmass would need to turned over to corn farming to completely substitute for oil.

[WinkyDink]

23. Totally right-on. There is NO EARTHLY WAY Bush is pushing a legit "alternative energy source"

BUT for immense corporate profit.

EVERY SINGLE ACT by Bush has been for this reason: the Illegal Invasion (Halliburton, G.E., et al.); NCLB (brother Neil's "Ignite!"); "Medicare Reform" (Big Pharma); "Homeland Security" (Blackwater, e.g.); attempts to privatize SS (Goldman-Sachs); etc.

[johnaries]

24. Bill Maher is a Libertarian.

I love the way he goes after the B* Admin, but that doesn't mean I will believe him on everything else. Since he is a Libertarian, I clearly disagree with him on MANY issues.

[Mythsaje]

34. Not really...

He self-identifies as a "Libertarian," but they don't claim him. They call him a liberal. If anything, he's a left-libertarian.

[Inspired]

27. You'll never hear a candidate say that in Iowa. n/t

[Connonym]

29. Read the Omnivore's Dilemma about corn

and you'll see that our level of corn production is directly related to artificial nitrogen and fossil fuels. Ethanol is a great idea except that it takes more fossil fuel to grow the shit than you get in energy from burning the shit. I think that pretty much meets the definition of a scam. And I'm a 100% corn-fed Iowa-born girl. I strongly suspect that in the end it will be corn that ends up destroying our economy.

Read the book -- fascinating stuff.

[angrycarpenter]

30. is anyone looking at geothermal?

that seemed like the cleanest energy source of all. I have heard nothing at all about it in recent years.

[Duppers]

31. that and the power of ocean waves

"Tapping the power of ocean waves"
http://news.com.com/2300-11392_3-6202618-1.html

http://news.com.com/2300-11392_3-6202618-11.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

and more, clicking thru links.

Still not a mega solution.

...............
And about geothermal, according to Wiki:

"Although geothermal sites are capable of providing heat for many decades, eventually specific locations may cool down. It is likely that in these locations, the system was designed too large for the site, since there is only so much energy that can be stored and replenished in a given volume of earth. Some interpret this as meaning a specific geothermal location can undergo depletion, and question whether geothermal energy is truly renewable, but if left alone, these places will recover some of their lost heat, as the mantle has vast heat reserves. The government of Iceland states It should be stressed that the geothermal resource is not strictly renewable in the same sense as the hydro resource. It estimates that Iceland's geothermal energy could provide 1700 MW for over 100 years, compared to the current production of 140 MW.<5>

The US Geothermal Education Office and a 1980 article entitled "The Philippines geothermal success story" by Rudolph J. Birsic published in the journal Geothermal Energy(vol. 8, Aug.-Sept. 1980, p. 35-44) note the remarkable geothermal resources of the Philippines. <3><4> During the World Geothermal Congress 2000 held in Beppu, Oita Prefecture of Japan (May-June 2000), it was reported that the Philippines is the largest consumer of electricity from geothermal sources and highlighted the potential role of geothermal energy in providing energy needs for developing countries.<5> According to the International Geothermal Association (IGA), worldwide, the Philippines ranks second to the United States in producing geothermal energy. As of the end of 2003, the US has a capacity of 2.02 million kilowatts of geothermal power, while the Philippines can generate 1.93 million kilowatts. (Italy is third with 0.79 million kilowatts). <6>"

more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power

.............................

Geothermal plants would tap 'Ring of Fire'
Buried heat could make steam to produce electricity
By TOM PAULSON
P-I REPORTER

The Pacific Northwest, which sits on the volcano-laden "Ring of Fire" bordering the Pacific Ocean, would seem an obvious spot to pursue geothermal power.

For Gordon Bloomquist, it has been obvious for nearly 30 years. He and others have estimated that by capturing the Earth's subterranean heat and converting it into electricity, they could generate enough power for 2 million homes.

But, only now, as the Washington State University geochemist prepares to retire and take his talents to work on geothermal projects for the World Bank in Eastern Europe and Africa, does it look as if this region may be pushed to exploit the hot-rock power lurking beneath our feet.

"Part of the problem has been opposition to renewables by the power companies," he said.

It's not direct opposition, he said, just starvation by delay, bureaucracy, throwing up logistic or financial hurdles (such as charging new projects exorbitant "connection" fees) -- or simple apathy.

The city of Seattle in the 1980s leased 50,000 acres near Mount Baker to explore geothermal energy, he said, but never invested further. It faded away.

more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/327743_geothermal16.html

[cornermouse]

35. He's right. It is a scam.