Do you pass judgment on women who are not sure who fathered their child?

[ecstatic]

Poll question: Do you pass judgment on women who are not sure who fathered their child?

What if men got pregnant and had to keep track of who the mother was?

I've noticed a lot of scorn geared towards Anna Nicole Smith (RIP) for possibly not knowing who the father of her daughter is, but realistically it's not that farfetched that somebody with 2 or more love interests could end up unsure of who the father is. The period of ovulation can last up to a week (ETA: and that period is extremely tricky to determine, even if you're "regular"). I don't think many women go out with the intention of having more than one sex partner in close proximity but if it just happened to occur that way one week, does that make a woman less deserving of respect? Some men are with different women every night of the week!

[The Straight Story]

1. I don't judge, just shake my head and wonder

and then ask for her number :rofl:

[Flarney]

19. Awesome. n/t

[butterfly77]

146. What happens in Las vegas ,stays in las vegas.

:toast: :party: :hi: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Solo_in_MD]

46. Yes...

Been around a bad experince where a truly innocent man was named by a careless breeder. He had one hell of a time clearing his name, was not allowed reclaim the interim child support, and not allowed to sue the lying b*tch. DSS did made it worse not better once it became clear that he was not the father since it made them look bad too.

[ecstatic]

55. wow! bitter much?

Quite colorful language there!

[slackmaster]

58. It's easy to criticize someone else's ire

Until something like it happens to you.

[ecstatic]

64. true, but in the scenario he mentioned... This is how I honestly feel

:nopity:

Come on, his friend was a willing participant with the 'careless breeder.' LOL

[slackmaster]

66. The fact that both participants made bad choices doesn't relieve either of them

...of responsibilities for the bad things they may have done in the process.

And both are valid targets for "judgement". Lying about paternity is bad, so are making poor choices for sex partners and not using contraception.

[Solo_in_MD]

73. Actually they had never met...see a more complete story in the post below

[Solo_in_MD]

69. Most of my ire is targeted at DSS, who are more unaccountable than the BFEE for the damage they do

In this case they coaxed the mother to give a name and an area. DSS did the phone book search, used that information to get the rest of the ID and then filed paperwork for interim support. They did not do any due diligence. Since the mother was a minor, she also had the protection of family court. It really was ugly. When finally confronted that she had lied and hurt an uninvolved party her comment was that somebody had to help pay for her baby.

Under current law you can not sue DSS for incompetence or fraud, the mother either. Any monies paid can not be recouped in civil court. DSS could file on a person who had died a year before a child was born, declaring him the baby's father and the estate would be compelled to pay. Its that bad.

In case its not clear...the named father had never met the mother, was the wrong age and race and was documented not to be in the area when conception occurred.

[slackmaster]

76. Man, that sucks the big wazoo!

Very unfair!

[Solo_in_MD]

78. The rationale is the best interests of the child trump everything, including due process.

[mainegreen]

111. Well, if they ever find the father, he should go after the father for $.

DHS (DSS) is insane, but at least up here in Maine they are required to do a DNA test first.
Wow. If I were him and had cash to spare, I might just take it up with the supreme court.

[Solo_in_MD]

121. DSS can, but the innocent guy named the father has no recourse against him

since he caused no injury to him. He had no part in the false identification by DSS and the mother

[redqueen]

126. Well why not hold of f calling her a "bitch" then?

*sigh*

[Clark2008]

148. You know this really happens very rarely, don't you.

For the most part, DCS (or DHS or DSS, whatever it's called in your area) does the job of saints; however, they are underpaid and understaffed and underfunded.

I'm very sorry for your friend and it truly sounds he got the shit end of the stick, but DCS isn't horrid.

The woman (girl) should have been made to give back the money in restitution and the worker who did the feeble search should have been fired (when I was reporting, a fellow reporter got fired for looking up a name in the phone book to get an address instead of waiting to get it from police. He accused, basically, an innocent man of being a child molester, even though the two had the same name - just not the same address).

But, the DHS had TRIED to help me recoup the money my ex-husband owes me for child support. Every three months they take my deadbeat ex to court for me - and the judge has already told me I don't have to be there because she doesn't want me to lose my job; afterall, she said, someone has to support this child - and get a few hundred out of him for me by threatening him with jail time. They try. They get something out of him and they work hard to do it.

I just wanted to make clear that MOST DHS workers are dedicated, but, just as with anything, we remember the aberrant and awful cases and try to use those to blast an entire profession, when most don't do these horrid acts - like priests, reporters, attorneys and cops - all of whom get a bad rap for the misdeeds of a few.

[in_cog_ni_to]

81. careless breeder???? OMG...tongue is now BLEEDING!

:grr:

[Solo_in_MD]

85. Read the story and you might understand why I use such inflamatory language

and I will acknowledge it is inflamatory and hyperbole...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sequoia]

15. Ah, the moralist....how do you define this word?

I find it amazing that there are so many negative adjectives towards beautiful women whom men crave to the point of insanity, but as always it's the woman's fault. But a man who has multiple partners is admired and praised.

[ProfessorGAC]

114. By Whom?

Other hounds. I don't admire and praise men because of how many women they sleep with? Geez, i'm not 14. Give me and a lot of other guys some credit.

To be clear: I see nothing admirable about men who have sex with multiple partners. To me, it's a giant "WHO CARES"!
The Professor

[redqueen]

127. Beautifully said. n/t

*sigh*

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

24. Zowie.

[LisaM]

3. Certainly not any more than I do on the men involved. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

9. So if a man cheats on his wife, that reflects just as badly on the wife

as it does on the man?

'cuz that's kind of the flip side of what you're saying.

[Bobbieo]

43. It is the children I feel for in thses cases.

[slackmaster]

48. Yes, me too

Most children raised by a single mom have problems because of it.

This is the voice of personal observation talking. I'm 49 and have known many single-mom families and been in relationships with several single moms.

Kids aren't necessarily always better off with a father figure in the house, but a properly functional one contributes significantly to the emotional development and financial well-being of both boys and girls.

[Marrah_G]

97. being a single mother is tough

I know, because I am one.

I think the effect on the kids has alot to do with how the single parent handles the situation.

For example:

I do date, but I also realize that my relationships will effect my childrens future relationships and so I keep my personal life away from them and will do so until I feel a relationship is going to become permenant. Having people trapsing in and out of thier lives is bad, in my opinion.

Financially, things are always tight, but I don't hide it from them. I use it as an example of why college and making the right life choices is so very important. They also know if they want something they have to earn it. My daughter babysits, my sons mow lawns and shovel driveways. Unlike children with more financially successful parents, mine know the value of a dollar and that they must work for what they want. My 14 year old son saved up enough for a nice bike and an MP3 player this year. I would bet he takes better care of them then most kids who have them given to them.

Yes we are poor, but I have 3 really great kids who don't complain, who aren't spoiled and who do not behave as though the world owes them something. They are compassionate, hard-working and for the most part, well behaved. What they lack financially they have gained in character.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when children in single parent households have problems it isn't so much the fact that there is only one parent, but rather how that parent decides to handle things. I know single moms who just try to be thier kids friend, apeasing them at every turn, out of guilt or just to shut the child up.

Of course 2 loving and responsible parents is best, but when life deals you a hand making that impossible you have to just do the best you can with what you have.

heh...sorry I didn't intend to ramble on like that.

[Clark2008]

151. I was a single Mom for five years and it's harder than anything

else I've done in my life.

But, my son IS much better off without his father in the house. His father was emotionally and, becoming, physically, abusive. He's a deadbeat who doesn't pay his child support, as well, and we were married; therefore, eliminating any ambiguity about parentage (plus, it's quite obvious my son is his child, even though he looks more like me. My ex is Arabic and my son's coloring mets that out). My son was always much closer to me than his father and his father worked nights and slept days so he didn't even see him much in the house. And, since we separated when my son was 15-months-old, my little boy never really knew his father that much to begin with. He didn't notice his father's absence all that much.

There comes a time when a mother (and sometimes a father) has to make the decision about what's better for a child: single parenting or staying in a potentially dangerous relationship. I think my son is better off for my decision. Plus, I had infinite help from my parents (thank you MOM!!).

It's not ALWAYS bad for the child, believe me.

[Porcupine]

90. Exactly, all those potentially breeding should exercise caution.

Any parties not fully protected are responsible to disclose that situation to the other party and agree that breeding is either acceptable or agree on a precautionary tactic.

Put it in and pray is idiocy for men and women both.

[slackmaster]

95. Oh noes, Porcupine is starting to sound like a lawyer

:hide:

[Porcupine]

105. This topic is a minefield. I'm a divorced parent.

Is any other explanation needed?

[slackmaster]

108. I'll bet you keep a stack of liability waiver forms in your nightstand drawer

Next to the condoms and lube.

I wouldn't blame you. ;-)

[Porcupine]

143. I um, "fixed" that problem.

There's no responsibility like the personal kind.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. I can't figure out why it would be any of my business.

At least, not unless I was one of the potential fathers.

[CrispyQ]

35. Best answer in this thread.

:thumbsup:

[AlCzervik]

5. if men got pregnant there would be drive through abortion clinics.

[Cleita]

8. And there would be contraceptive machines in every building and

on every street corner.

[The Straight Story]

16. Would ya have to use a pickup truck for that, with a flat bed?

When I was real little I thought babies came out of the ass - talk about pain.

[AlCzervik]

18. ow!

i had my daughter like it was the middle gawddamn ages, i go no drugs at all after i was promised some! "Sorry, you're too far along now". i went nuts--"Why don't i just go out in the fucking field and drop down and have my kid there!!"

[TahitiNut]

22. Would you like fries with that?

:rofl:

[edbermac]

25. Well this man would take precautions against having a baby.

Why get pregnant unless you want a baby? I think there is a lot of irresponsibility on the part of both sexes.

[AlCzervik]

27. good for you and i agree, education, responsibility and access to birth control.

[AngryAmish]

118. Because men give so little thought to a potential life

Because of the way we were made, men care not a wit about a potential life and obviously lack the emotional depth and intelligence to think through the consequences of whether or not to have an abortion. Men would make it a "drive-through" procedure because men lack the innate capacity to care about bringing a child into the world.

But if you agree with that, would you also agree with such paternalistic notions that women lack the ability to look at things rationally and are just a big ole bag of hormones (especially that that time of the month) so they can't be trusted to have jobs with real responsibilities like doctors or politicians?

Sexism sucks and it cuts both ways.

[JVS]

135. If spouting old dumb slogans were clever, I'd be amused by your post

[Cleita]

6. Absolutely not. Then I would have to pass judgement on the

men who indulge in casual sex with or without a condom.

NO MORE DOUBLE STANDARDS!

In some cultures women have multiple partners because it's better for a child to have several fathers because they bring more resources to help raise the child.

[LisaM]

52. Exactly

Any man who has unprotected sex is a potential father. It doesn't matter what the woman "told him" (when my boyfriend and I argue this topic, which is fairly often, he always whines about women who pretend they are using birth control but really aren't).

[Katherine Brengle]

84. Why not judge men having unsafe sex with multiple partners?

I sure as hell do - they are putting others at risk with that type of behavior, not just themselves.

[Cleita]

92. You are right, but my point is that they aren't.

There are even TV sitcoms like "Two And A Half Men" where Charlie Sheen's promiscuity is taken lightly and seldom criticized. So men aren't held to the same standards of whoredom that women are. That was my point. From your point of view of risky behavior both sexes should be equally held responsible, I agree.

[etherealtruth]

11. Shit happens

[cynatnite]

12. No n/t

[Deja Q]

13. I think it's sad and it's going to hurt the child...

but it was her choice.

But I can't blame those who wanted her to scorn her.

And the unknown father to boot, he's just as guilty too.

[Beaverhausen]

14. Just because a man claims he is the father doesn't mean anything

He could just be trying to harrass Anna Nicole. She never said she didn't know who the father was.

Go stick your judgements up your asses.

[Sequoia]

Bear in mind the child could inherit millions of dollars

so any man who was with her would glady claim the child as his in order to get his hands on the money too.

[Beaverhausen]

31. exactly

[Sequoia]

119. Drug overdose....I'd still check all things out.

Especially since her son died too. Money does strange things to people and her ancient billionaire husband's family ("step" son, as in not by blood) should be looked at. I smell a rat. That little girl had better have a guard.

[TahitiNut]

17. As a serially monogamous male, I'd sure be appalled if there were doubt about ...

... whether I was a father. It's not my job to pass judgment on people, but that does not preclude me from having an ethical opinion regarding the behavior. (I'm one of those who DOES comprehend the difference between a person and their behavior. Sad to think that more don't.)

[zanne]

20. Oh come on.

Of course we judge. We just don't do it out loud.

[Tempest]

23. Especially when they show up on Springer

And have had the 10th guy take a DNA test to find out if it's his kid.

[ecstatic]

28. lol. you mean Maury?

:rofl:

OK... now you've turned me into a hypocrite--but once you have over 3 men tested (sometimes up to 17), there is a serious problem. I think at that point I would judge LOL

[Tempest]

38. You're right, it was Maury

I caught it while channel surfing waiting on Scrubs to start (on syndication).

[TahitiNut]

32. Hiya, Temp!! Long time no see!

:hi: Hope you're doing well!

[Tempest]

40. Well as can be, thanks

I've been in the more controversial threads raising hell and making enemies.

I hope life has been treating you well.

[Beaverhausen]

26. She said she knew who the father was

It's some other guy trying to claim the child is his.

You are some sick people. She just fucking died for god's sake.

[Tempest]

41. You should watch Maury sometime

There's a lot of women who say they know who the father is and it turns out he wasn't.

If Smith was so certain who the father was, why was she so adamant against the DNA test?

[Beaverhausen]

47. Why should she submit to the tests? Why let some guy just make her do that?

No, I don't watch Murray. Why do you?

[Tempest]

75. To remove all doubt

The test will most likely happen now since custody hearings will be made and we'll find out for sure.


Why do I? I don't.

I guess you don't watch TV at all if you've never seen the commercials for the show.

And who are you to question someone's viewing habits at all?

[xchrom]

29. i judge people who still think of women as whores

as ignorant fucksticks worthy of darwin's reward for being so stupid.

[uppityperson]

56. Good post.

[xchrom]

91. thanks -- some days this place is FR.

[Cobalt Violet]

The puritans are winning this poll. At least at the time I'm writing this.

Sometimes I feel like I don't belong here anymore. Look at the poll results. Puritans, so many Purtns.

[Cobalt Violet]

112. Dupe n/t

[intaglio]

30. Should be a choice "Noones business except mother and child" eom

[edbermac]

33. No but in her case she was against determining who the dad was.

If she wasn't sure, just take the DNA test asap and be done with it. She'd also be putting the child in the middle of not knowing who the real father is either.

[Beaverhausen]

44. She claimed she knew who the dad was

why should she submit her child to tests if she knew who the dad was?

Why do people assume this guy claiming to be the father is telling the truth?

[edbermac]

98. Well she claimed that, but OJ claimed he didn't kill his wife.

People DO lie sometimes. And if this guy demands a paternity test and she fights it, I assume he is the father and she knows it.

[Gormy Cuss]

139. If she didn't have someone else claiming paternity, it would be no one's business but her own.

The reality is that the child deserves to know, should she ever ask. Without a test to exclude the publicity-seeking man, the girl may have years of uncertainty. That's why it may have been better to have the test and get it over with. Since ANS could support her child financial there's no compelling need for anyone except the child to know, and the child may never care to find out. I know many who haven't a clue who their biological fathers are. It matters to some, it doesn't matter to others.

That said, there is no PUBLIC need to know any of this.

[Mz Pip]

34. Multiple partners

and not using protection does make me uncomfortable. In this day and age with STDs rampant and deadly, I do wonder about women and men who are players.

I'm glad I'm old and not out there looking for love (or whatever) anymore. :shrug:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[w13rd0]

36. You are missing an option...

No

When a woman gets pregnant, we're fairly certain who the "mother" of the child is, but its only recent medical advances that have given us the ability to know who the father is with any degree of certainty.

I am of the opinion that "mother" and "father" are fairly outmoded concepts anyway. Family structures are both far more complex and simpler. A child is born having had an ova donor and a sperm donor, and residing in a womb for the period of gestation. If they emerge, they may be raised by one or both of the donors, or by a nanny, a television, a team of scientists, or by someone else entirely, bound or not by genetic linkages. At some point in their development, they may, or may not, "become independent". At some time, they may or may not become donors in their own right to a genetic mingling creating another distinct creature.

So no, I could not vote, because you have no option for "No".

[deadparrot]

37. Shit happens.

A person's sex life, assuming it doesn't affect me, is none of my business.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. None Of My Business. A Woman Can Sleep Around With Whomever She Wants As Often As She Pleases.

None of anybody's business whatsoever how often a woman sleeps around or how many different partners she had within any given time.

[The Straight Story]

62. Well, it will be your business soon enough

as the health nazis, especially those on the right, determine sleeping around too much is risky and costs people more in health care expenses. It started with a link to smoking, and the links keep growing until they become a chain wrapped around us.

Sad thing is, we will probably have people even here telling us that what others do does affect them because it affects their monthly costs, and some will join in the chorus to restrict such things.

So yeah, you are right - it is no one's business (though they will make it so for the sake of the kid...) but eventually I see people making it their business. And that scares me.

[ecstatic]

65. I agree, as long as s/he is being safe about it

I'm shocked that so many DUers are bigoted towards the sexually free.

[Cobalt Violet]

117. I'm very shocked and saddened by it too.

I'm really starting to feel like I don't belong here anymore.

[slackmaster]

42. Not a "you're a bad person" or "you're going to Hell" kind of judgement

Just a "you made a bad decision or three" judgement.

[MuseRider]

45. No

why would I care? It is none of my business.

[burythehatchet]

49. Matter of degrees

Make a mistake once ... fine ... but if you're on Maury Povich for your 12th appearance with a different dude each time for a paternity test, I might get all holier than thou.

[Oeditpus Rex]

50. That would mean passing judgement on my own biological mother

So, no.

[slackmaster]

51. Aw, come on Oed, you know you want to

:D

[Oeditpus Rex]

57. Heh!

Reminds me of the WKRP episode with "Scum of the Earth."



"Can I say hello to my mother?"

"Your mama live in Cincinnati?"

"Well, there's always a chance, isn't there?"

:7

[Ariana Celeste]

158. ...

:hug:

[Withywindle]

53. I pass judgement for not using protection!

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

(And that goes for all parties involved.)

[fudge stripe cookays]

88. How do you know people aren't?

Sometimes, condoms break, and other methods aren't foolproof. I was a victim of that myself. Fortunately, I had a miscarriage.

[Withywindle]

100. Sure, it can happen and it does all the time...

...but really, if you double up methods (say, condoms and the Pill, for example) the odds are pretty small. Certainly smaller than the frequency with which this seems to happen.

And for a child's paternity to be uncertain, it would have to happen at least TWICE within a short frame of time.

[uppityperson]

54. Hell no.

My gram's dad is an unknown. I don't care. I know who my gram's mom was, and who raised the kids as a father. That is what counts.

As far as passing judgement on people for having sex with multiple partners? That is none of my business.

[idealistMO]

59. I always liked Anna Nicole Smith

sure she was kooky, but she didn't B.S. around - she told everyone what she thought. You never had to second guess her comments or actions.

She lead a hard life - and many of her troubles were self-inflicted. I liked her. Her death is the final act in a tragic drama that also included many happy moments.

[slackmaster]

68. Didn't you know this thread was REALLY about Global Warming?

You'll figure it out, and Welcome to DU!

[sam sarrha]

60. is this a trick question..??

[idealistMO]

61. I believe she knew who the father is

She just thought it wasn't the publics right to know.

[Beaverhausen]

70. absolutely right!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[redqueen]

129. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Love your post!

[Left Is Write]

63. I don't have any reason to believe Anna Nicole didn't know exactly who the father was.

As for judgment on others about the paternity of their children - I don't guess it's any of my business.

[Colobo]

67. I believe

Men and women alike should do their best to live organized lives.

[Midlodemocrat]

71. It surprises me, sometimes, but I won't judge someone for it.

Because I'm not in their shoes. I know without a shadow of a doubt who my childrens' father is because I have been married to him for 18 years and I haven't slept with anyone else during that time.

[LanternWaste]

72. As an aside...

As an aside... Everybody judges, though some may hide it better than others. It's simply part of the human condition.

Even saying "I like that person" is a judgment, albeit a positive one.

We never consider it a "judgment" when we agree with it, we consider it "common sense". It's only when we disagree with the indictment that we use the word.


--- Now back to your regularly scheduled posts---

[AtomicKitten]

74. None of my business, really.

[sandnsea]

77. Happened to my daughter's friend

She had gone around telling everyone one guy was the dad, turned out he wasn't and she had to tell people what happened. Very embarrassing for her.

Happy ending though, the guy who wasn't the biological dad decided he didn't care and continues to see the child involved, as does his mother who provides child care, etc.

Life's ups and downs. What you judge the harshest is likely to happen to you!

[WinkyDink]

79. No; I'm a Christian. ;)

[Katherine Brengle]

80. No one should act like that, but...

if a woman is going to, she/her partner(s) should use birth control because children deserve to know who their parents are.

[treestar]

82. No, I wouldn't judge it

And whoever is should also be as judgmental toward men who have sex with more than one woman in that time period. They could be getting two women pregnant. Equality of views on this is hard to convince people of, though. That's "nature" and what men are supposed to do. Interesting that women do it too, given the chance.

[boobooday]

83. Case-by-case basis n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

86. No. It's none of my damn business, is it? Not my life, not my body. n/t

[LostInAnomie]

87. There is a big difference between not knowing who the father is between two guys...

... and not knowing who the father is because you don't actually know all of your partners. While the first is less than ideal, the second is unsafe and irresponsible.

For me the answer is split into two parts; the philosophical, and the pragmatic. Philosophically, I don't judge. Sex is sex, and it is up to those taking part to decide their own reasons and motives for taking part. The genders should be held to the same standard. Pragmatically, it is the woman who is actually going to have the child and be saddled with the burden. As a matter of personal responsibility, and physical safety, women should make sure that their partners are using protection, especially if they are having sex with enough partners to make paternity hard to trace.

[saracat]

89. What makes you think she didn't know who fathered her child?

She knew.That was why she wouldn't have the DNA test done.

[and-justice-for-all]

93. I have one thing to say...

.It takes ( 2 )!!!

I am male and I know how men are. They are just as responsible as the women is but yet it always the womens fault, that mentality is old. Men are horned up pigs and just as slutty as any women is tagged for.

Women, like men, enjoy sex. There is nothing wrong with that in the least, its human nature to want to procreate with as many people as possible, its the power of the genes people. Its how they have survived all these millions of years.

But again, Men are or can be just as slutty as any women can be...remember its the GENES.

[BlooInBloo]

94. If the woman is annanicolesmith I do.

[Cobalt Violet]

115. Classist Much?

[IdaBriggs]

96. Don't know anything about the Anna situation (don't care, either).

But I do pass some judgment on folks who can't keep track of their sex partners/don't use protection/bring children into their disaster lives -- men AND women. Mostly its just the "shake my head" and remind myself that "there but for the grace of God and Good Sense go I" but when folks start doing the "baby daddy/baby momma" thing to the point of stupid (when they can't afford to put a roof over their own heads, etc.), I start thinking that "parent tests" are a GOOD THING. (Yes, I know its bad, and it isn't practical, but SERIOUSLY!!!)

I am, however, completely convinced that the human race does not breed for intelligence, especially whenever I start watching too much daytime television (which, being on bed rest for the last several months, I've caught more than my fair share).

What part of, "if you can't afford a condom, you probably can't afford a kid" is so hard to understand??? And what part of "unemployed idiot with a criminal record and four other kids by four other women" makes some of these women think "wow! I can't wait to sleep with THAT!" Especially when he isn't supporting any of the other kids either, but is just "helping out" -- why do these people think his "generous" purchase of the occasional diaper makes him a "good father?"

:banghead:

ARGH! Too many "judge" shows, and too many "baby daddy/baby momma" story lines! Must ... Turn ... Off ... Television ....

:)

[mondo joe]

99. Other: I think nothing of it. At all.

[rzr77]

101. As long as I don't have to pay, and a kid doesnt show up on my doorstep later.

Since the child comes from her body, I've always felt the mother is the primary parent, and it's up to her whether she informs the man or not, who I view to be simply a sperm donor of sorts .. a gift.. which the woman consents to accepting when she consents to sex with the man.

What I disagree with is the woman, on her whim, deciding to force fatherhood responsibilities - be it economic/child support or custodial - on the man at a later date.

Assuming legal fatherhood should be the man's choice alone, and he should have the right to ask for paternity tests etc, and the right to decline, regardless of the "best interests" of the child, as it wasn't his choice to create a child, but the woman's alone.

[Dorian Gray]

102. I voted other

solely because I believe she knows who the father of her child is. (And it isn't Howard K. Stern.)

[niyad]

103. what's that old expression, "tis a wise father who knows his own child"- seriously, the issue of

fatherhood is only an issue in patriarchy. in matrifocal societies, the father is, at least in terms of inheritence, etc. completely irrelevant.

that is one reason I think concepts like illegitmacy, bastardy, etc, are outworn, outdated and completely irrelevant.

(putting on flame-retardant outerwear now)

[redqueen]

130. Interesting post!

I'd like to see that discussed in its own thread, really.

Maybe in Women's Issues or something... :shrug:

[bleedingheart]

132. the fear of irrevelancy is what created the social rules we live by

men...create a world in which women are punished or shunned if they do not accept the roles the men want them to be in...

[politicat]

104. Can't. Won't.

I'd be casting aspersions upon my own mother and my own birth. My mother wasn't married when she got pregnant with me, and she wasn't doing anything that wasn't at least reasonably common in the mid 70's, and she was doing her best -- she was on the pill.

Now, with the all too unsubtle bludgeons that are HPV and HIV, I'd probably sit down and have a good chatter at any young woman who ended up in my mother's shoes, but more for her own long-term health than for any judgmental reasons. World's changed since I was conceived.

I don't expect perfect, life-time monogamy from anyone. It's unrealistic, and without formal commitments between partners (and I don't care if that number is 2 or 42) it's not my business. In 1948, 22% of all babies born had fathers not the ones listed on their birth certificates (by blood test). I doubt those numbers have changed any, and I doubt they were all that extraordinary for 1848 or 1648, either.

[Horse with no Name]

106. Actually I never thought it was a matter of who she was fucking

I thought it was a matter of her wanting a stable father figure for her child.
Her father abandoned her while she was growing up, Daniel's father abandoned them and I think she just wanted someone who would stick around as the father-of-record for this baby.

[JanMichael]

107. How about none of my, or your, fucking business?

Pass judgment? Don't "approve of the conduct?"

Who the fuck am I to do either or think either of these assholish thoughts?

Or you?

[ShortnFiery]

109. Perhaps an apt analogy ...

When you back into a buzz saw, it's hard to tell which blade cut you. :shrug: :smoke:

[Cobalt Violet]

110. Where is the No I don't pass judgement option?

:shrug:

[Coventina]

113. What.The.Fuck. Whatever happened to "My Body, My Choice"?!?!?!

Hello?!?!?

I thought as progressives we were supposed to pride ourselves on NOT JUDGING people.

I cannot believe what I am seeing here.

Puritanism is alive and well, I guess.

:eyes:

[dogday]

116. About as much as I judge men who go around

fathering children they don't know about.... I don't judge period..

[InvisibleTouch]

120. Other: Just plain "No." n/t

[Dastard Stepchild]

122. Nope. eom.

[redqueen]

123. Wow... the results of this poll are VERY sad.

*sigh*

[Cobalt Violet]

133. I don't know this place anymore. What a shame.

People are so judgmental and filled with puritainism.

[redqueen]

134. Well, it's encouraged...

someone mentioned shows like Maury and the judge shows... I really hate those shows.

[Cobalt Violet]

138. Why are the "yes" voters not defending their postions?

I think must must be ashamed or realize they have no defense.

I hate those shows too.

[redqueen]

140. I think you're right.

It's like bigotry against homosexuals. It's still condoned, and they still feel it, but they know it's not right, so they don't come out and show it openly.

[redqueen]

124. You know what? It is ADVANTAGEOUS to have that uncertainty!

That is why we're instinctively geared to act this way, even if we are conditioned early in life to not behave this way.

Confusion about fatherhood was intended to protect the young from being slaughtered by males who might be sure the young are not theirs.

That is also why womens' breasts stay large, whether we are pregnant or not. To trick males into thinking we might be pregnant with their child.

Evolution is a funny thing.

[Solly Mack]

125. shit happens

[Chovexani]

128. None of my fucking business

This is a very patriarchal idea, the obsession with knowing who the father is. It is no one's business but the parties involved.

It's despicable the way so many here seem to think they have a vested interest in what/whom goes into or out of a woman's bits.

[bleedingheart]

131. Number one reason for Abortion is social scorn caused by

the birth of an illegitimate child in addition to the costs of raising that child.

I have always laughed at the Religious groups who march against abortion but on the flip side will condemn a woman who bears a child out of wedlock and perhaps may not know who the father was....

[JVS]

136. People get judged for much smaller infractions of social norms than that

In a society where people are judged for not using the right freaking lightbulbs, do you honestly think that people are going to hold off judgement of someone's sex life?

[Cobalt Violet]

137. I had hoped on DU they would.

But I guess not.

[redqueen]

141. hahahahahaha... very good point! n/t

[lapislzi]

142. I don't pass judgment on anybody

Because I hate it when somebody does it to me. I'm no paragon of virtue.

[cgrindley]

152. So you haven't passed judgment on Bush?

What about Cheney? Bernie Ebbers? Fastow? Lay? Kissinger? Nixon? Pol Pot? Dahmer? That's just silly. Of course you routinely pass judgment on people.

[Cobalt Violet]

144. They should all wear a Scarlet A. So we know who these women are.

The Puritans win! Defend your "yes" position then.
You can't, can you? Because there is no defense.


Unreal. We are headed for another stone age. Or maybe that's an insult to the people of the stone age as they couldn't been such puritans.


People wonder how the Salem Witch Trails ever happened. It's clearly obvious in the way 50% of the people here voted.

[pampango]

149. I pass judgment on men who don't know the mothers of their

children and women who don't know the fathers of their children.

The key word there is "children". They deserve a voice in the matter. They deserve to know who their mother and father are. Sometimes that is not possible for good reasons and there should be no judgment in those instances. But it is not irrelevant to the welfare of a child and parents who are irresponsible about it should be judged, just as if they did not feed or clothe a child.

Men and women can screw around all they want, but when it affects other people, wives, husbands, children, they should not expect a free pass.

[theboss]

145. I'm not sure what "pass judgment" means in this context?

I think it is pretty careless of the person. And I wonder what their thought process is.

But I don't hate them.

[Clark2008]

147. I don't consider it any of my business, so I don't judge

either way.

I put "other."

[cgrindley]

150. Any potential breeding scenario needs to be intentional

For *all* parties involved, and if it isn't, then all the people involved should be looked down on, should be scorned. No one should be making babies except deliberately. There are too many people in the world as it is.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to rape or incest situations.

[Cobalt Violet]

153. I look down in scorn at people who look down in scorn at other people in matters...

That are none of their business.

[cgrindley]

154. It is my business

If you don't think that population control and the world's future are your business, you've got troubles and you're part of the problem.

[Cobalt Violet]

155. It's not your business if a mother knows who the father of a child is.

Unless it could be yours.

She can get a test to find out. I don't see how the population numbers are altered if she know or doesn't know.

[cgrindley]

156. It is so my business

No one should be bringing an unplanned child into the world and bringing a child into the world should never be a unilateral act. It should be an informed decision. The time is long over for people just to be randomly having children because they're careless or stupid or acting out of some asinine sense of inflated self-worth. The world is in trouble, and it's up to everyone to behave responsibility as far as reproduction is concerned. So yeah. It is my business.

[Cobalt Violet]

157. I'm glad I don't need your permission. n/t

[cgrindley]

159. You don't need my permission but you should want to do what's right

No one should irresponsibly bring a child into the world. All children should be planned. It's selfish and stupid to do otherwise, and it's basically one of the contributing factors to the environmental catastrophe we find ourselves in today.

[philosophie_en_rose]

163. Nice Big Brother complex.

:eyes:

[helderheid]

160. What stopped the man from putting on a goddamned condom?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

161. "Judge" doesn't mean condemn.

I would say that I judge women who get pregnant without knowing who by, and more or less everyone else, but that the judgement I generally arrive at is that they haven't done anything wrong.

An aquittal is just as much a judgement as a conviction.

People often ask "what gives you the right to judge X?" This strikes me as a fundamentally misguided question - forming opinions isn't something you *need* a right to do. Passing sentence, and acting on those opinions, often is, but that's an entirely different matter. You should judge everyone and everything that you wish to be involved with (there's no point in judging matters you can't form an informed judgement on, but if you can't you shouldn't get involved in them).

I voted other - I do judge, but the judgement I generally arrive at isn't one of the ones given.

[philosophie_en_rose]

162. No. I don't pass judgment.

And it's really none of my business.

Legally speaking, it creates complex situations. However, it doesn't necessarily mean anything about a woman's character.