How do you feel about teenagers being tried as adults?

[undeterred]

A Wisconsin was teenager given a life sentence for killing the school principal. He is 16 and had a lot of problems at home, lots of bullying at school. To me you're are either an adult or you're not, depending on your age and that age is set by the state. I don't get this business of "trying someone as an adult" when they are 16 and still considered a minor and not responsible in so many other ways. :shrug:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/

[BuyingThyme]

1. And here's the catch:

If he's tried as an adult, he can't argue he has diminished capacity (i.e. the mental capacity of the 16-year old).

[undeterred]

4. And in this case he may not have had the emotional

and mental capacity of most 16 year olds. He testified that other kids called him "smelly" because his clothes were always dirty and smelled... so he came to school without a shirt one day because all his clothes were dirty. The parents were really screwed up.

[Az]

2. It makes me sick every time I hear about it

I can't help but imagine its an over zealous prosecutor trying to make a name for himself on the tough on crime crowd. Sickening.

[ThomCat]

9. I agree. It's another echo of zero tolerance.

Kids are not supposed to be treated like adults. They're not adults. Even when they do (bad) adult thing, they're still kids!

[undeterred]

45. He murdered a much loved principal.

But it brings out the real ugliness in people. He's a miserable kid from an unhappy home. There's a lot of emotion on both sides. The murder was premeditated and deliberate. But he was 16, and at 16 you do not think or have the moral reasoning of an adult.

[nini]

3. depends on the kid.. but in general I do not approve

.

[gollygee]

5. I'm opposed. It seems like they're saying there's no chance of rehabilitation

but I don't see how you can say that there's no way to rehabilitate a 15- or 16-year-old. What is the purpose of the criminal justice system? Particularly for young people? If an adult kills someone I have no problem with life with no chance of parole, but it seems like a 16-year-old kid, particularly with problems at home, could still be saved if in the right environment. I hate just giving up on kids.

[Lucinda]

6. depends on the crime

[karlrschneider]

7. He's a murderer. His age is irrelevant.

...

[orleans]

47. o...k..... what if he was six? or eight? n/t

[Madspirit]

53. Karl...no

I hope you don't mean that. There is a HUGE psychological difference between a child and an adult. It is comparable to diminished capacity. Plus, you are writing this kid off for the rest of his life. I wish you would reconsider this position. They are called "children" for a reason. They are not just short adults.

Lee

[Zensea]

81. Not necessarily, murder has a strict legal definition

It involves intent and ability to make moral judgments.
That's why there are different degrees of murder and also a class of killing called manslaughter even for adults.
When someone is not an adult or is on the borderline between being a child and an adult it is even more problematic.

[napi21]

8. I think that has to be decided on each individual case.

I know if I compare even only 5 - 16 year olds, some would be considered immature and still think & act like children, while some others are a shock when you find out they're only 16 since they act think and act like 25 yo's.

In all fairness,I've met some 30 yo's that think & act like 12!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. I'm against it.

It's really, really stupid.

[LWolf]

11. I don't have a clear-cut position.

I don't think the legal definition of "adult" is a true definition. There is physically "adult," when puberty is complete, and there is emotionally and intellectually adult, which some never achieve, if adulthood is seen as developmentally appropriate maturation.

The physical definition of adult really has no bearing on whether or not a person was mentally "mature" enough to be held accountable.

What is the goal? To prevent further harm, or to "punish?"

I think a better conversation might be about what the ultimate goals of a justice system are, how to achieve those goals humanely, and what part age might play in a better system.

That 16 yo is old enough, in my mind, to know that it is not ok to kill the school principal. That it's not ok to take a gun to school, and that there are consequences for choosing to do things that are wrong.

It's not ok to indulge in violent rages. If the boy had environmental conditions which led to diminished capacity, then we ought to be doing something about the environmental conditions rampant in our culture that lead to violence. If he was mentally ill, then we ought to treat the illness. We ought not to turn somebody loose, of any age, that is likely to harm again.

[SoCalDem]

12. If they commit an adult crime, I don't mind. n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

17. As opposed to a kiddy crime? lmao. nt

[SoCalDem]

20. You're just as dead if a 14 yr old shoots you

:)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. So what do you think the age of consent should be?

I mean, if you think kids should be held to the same level of responsibility as adults...

[karlrschneider]

37. Puberty. Yes, it varies. That should be the dividing line.

...

[gollygee]

27. You are also just as dead if a 4-year-old accidentally shoots you

:shrug:

[karlrschneider]

38. Or if it's not accidental.

:shrug:

[Madspirit]

54. Have you considered the Republican Party?...n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

13. I agree.....

the crime doesn't change the kids age. Either a minor is a minor or not.

[ThomWV]

14. I don't think it should ever happen

Look, as I see it they should set an age - let is say 18 - and then just stick to it. You can not be arbitrary with the law and having some kids be treated as adults and some not is nothing other than arbitrary no matter what sort of justification is used to smother the fact.

[Help me help Earth]

15. It depends on the crime, the age, and the culprits mental state.

I don't have a problem with someone who is just under the limit being tried as an adult for a serious crime, but if it were someone very young or with serious mental health issues I'd probably feel differently.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Can be appropriate, but seems like it's misused a fair bit - typically by "law&order" types...

... I'm not sure if there needs to be a moratorium, or if it's fixable.

[rucky]

18. Do you think the records on the case should be sealed?

How much time should he do at the juvenille facility?

Do you set him free when he turns 18?

Do you think he should emerge from his sentence with his record expunged?

[me b zola]

19. I'm against it

Above and beyond all other considerations to the issue is the fact that a teen being sentenced to an adult prison consitutes cruel and inhuman punishment.

We as a society can pretend that a teen in adult prison will not be raped every day, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what will happen.

[stillcool]

21. sick... n/t

[liberalmuse]

23. Absolutely heinous.

If the law says you can't drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes or vote, you are not a fucking adult. Now that poor kid is going to prison, only to be raped and abused all the more. I'm so ashamed of our "justice" system. There is no justice. Fucking Bush can murder all the people he wants with immunity, and kids get put in prison or on death row. I hate the authoritarian, conservative, neanderthal influence on this planet.

[MiserableFailure]

29. maybe if kids don't want to be sent to death row,

they shouldn't murder people.

you say it's heinous. i'll let you keep musing about that instead of musing about the plight of the victims.

[Madspirit]

56. Kids can no longer be sent to death row

I hope you don't mean that. There is a HUGE psychological difference between a child and an adult. It is comparable to diminished capacity. They are called "children" for a reason. They are not just short adults. ...and on what Bizarro planet does this mean I cannot have compassion for the victims??????

Lee

[MiserableFailure]

61. Yes I know about Roper v Simmons

Yes, they are called children, but they're not the sweet and innocent creatures that people think of when they generally think of creatures. They are monsters. It just really disturbs me to see so many people calling the practice inhumane and barbaric. No- the crimes that these guys committed were barbaric. Executing them may be immoral in your opinion, but I would never call it barbaric.

[annabanana]

74. people can be awful, they cannot be "monsters". . . .n/t

[Irreverend IX]

71. Yeah, I'm sure those two years make an incredible difference.

Do you think people magically become responsible and aware of the consequences of their actions at midnight on their 18th birthdays? When I was 16 I knew damn well that it was wrong to kill people. During most of human history, people started families and took on adult responsibilities well before they reached 16 years of age. It's disingenuous to claim that 16-year-olds are "children" in the same way that elementary school kids are.

I don't think imprisonment is the best idea in this case, though. It sounds like the kid is seriously deranged and should spend the rest of his life in an institution.

[Madspirit]

80. Are You Talking to Me?

I'm the radical leftist. I don't support the death penalty, EVER and I think our entire brutal prison system needs to be overhauled and I don't think minors should EVER be tried as adults. I don't believe in pound-of-flesh and I much rather invest in hospitals and therapy than prisons. I am a TRUE Bleeding Heart leftist of the late 60s kind.

So surely, you can't be talking to me.

Lee

[provis99]

36. yeah, except plenty of counties ban alcohol to everyone, including adults

The majority of the counties in Arkansas ban alcohol. So we don't even have it clear whether or not adults can drink. No surprise then that we can't establish legal responsibilities for child criminals. Or else Arkansans are saying the majority of counties in their state don't have mature adults. The age at which one is subject to the full responsibilities of adulthood are completely arbitrary in this country, and we can't even agree what age that is (16 for drivers in most states, except it's 14 in Mississippi; 18 for voting; 21 for alcohol, where it's legal; 18 for military service (old enough to kill with a machinegun, but not old enough to have a beer, I guess); 18 or 21 for estate inheritance, depending on state, etc.)
One point though: I think even a 16 year old can tell its a no-no to murder someone. Maybe rather than an arbitrary age of adulthood, we can adjust criminal punishment to reflect age of awareness of the wrongness of a crime. Thus, even a 12 year old knows that you don't go out and murder someone who called you "dirty", but that same 12-year old might be eluded by the subtleties of wire fraud or accounting fraud.

[LittleClarkie]

24. I don't like that it keeps changing

A co-worker got a harsh sentence for cracking up his car while drunk driving and killing a minor. The reason it bugged me was that he was 18 and she was 17. I was sorry that she died, but they were both drunk, and she didn't have to get in his car, esp. when she was home when she made the decision. But if the same person had committed a murder, she would likely be tried as an adult. How can you be a minor one minute and an adult the next.

I just want consistency.

[NC_Nurse]

25. I think it's bullshit.

[1620rock]

26. You wouldn't think it bullshit if this big strapping (16 year old) thug

had murdered your loved one.

[mondo joe]

31. That's why we have a legal system and don't ask the loved ones of victims to mete out

the punishment.

Revenge is not a good way to handle justice.

[karlrschneider]

39. But you know what? That might be a better way to deal with it.

Think about it...

[mondo joe]

46. I maintain that justice, like science, should be dispassionate.

That's me though.

[MiserableFailure]

28. I like it.

As a homicide investigator in a high population county, I deal with young teenaged perps regularly. Most of them have no remorse for their actions.

I definitely support giving them stiff sentences. If you don't, deterrence will go way down. If a 17 year old knows that if he murders someone and is convicted, he will be let out of prison when he's 21 or 25, he'll be a lot more likely to do it than if he is facing a possible life sentence.

[High Plains]

49. Right. So many teenage killers spend time weighing consequences.

Not.

[MiserableFailure]

55. Yeah, cause I'm sure you know more about this than I do

It's not like I have infinitely more experience than you when it comes to interviewing these guys and helping prosecute them. Not at all.

This would be like me arguing dermatology with a dermatologist. I would never. But this is what I do, boy. We have a few murders a week here and I typically deal with 10 juvenile murderers a year.

FYI, Mr. know-it-all, the boys who did the school shootings in Jonesboro, Arkansas knew that they would only have to serve a few years in jail for their terrible crimes. The 13 year old served 8 years and the 11 year old served 10 years, and was released 3 months ago. There is no doubt that the potential of them being tried as adults would have reduced the chances of them committing that crime.

[Madspirit]

58. I Know More About It Than You Do

I've been a troubled kid and I've worked with troubled kids and my field is psychology. This is a horrible position to hold and it's not a psychologically sound position either. Jeez. You take the "bleeding heart" right out of "liberal".
Lee

[MiserableFailure]

60. Disappointing coming from you, Madspirit

I had your back in the prostitution thread

Oh well.

Anyway, I don't think you know more about it than I do. We are talking about juvenile criminals, and I deal with juvenile murderers, which is what most of the debate centers on. You may have worked with troubled kids but you've never interrogated a juvenile murderer. Most of these kids are pure evil and soulless. Most would certainly do it again if given the opportunity, or if they were told to by their gang leader. I say murderer and not murder suspect because almost every one of the kids interrogated ends up being convicted of the murder they were charged with and indicted on.

[Madspirit]

63. Honey, I've lived with juvenile murderers

You have no idea what my life has been. NO idea.

...and if you expect us to agree on everything, I suggest you buy a clone.

Lee

[Madspirit]

65. PS

...and you "had my back" because I validated YOUR position. Don't ever have my back if you don't really agree. I will NEVER say something I don't really think. I can promise you that.
Lee

[Madspirit]

66. Lastly, you don't know me

Anyone here who knows me could tell you that I am a children's advocate. I am at the furthest left on DU and especially on issues like this. I don't even much believe in prison for anyone. I believe in hospitals, therapy, etc. I am a TRUE SOCIAL liberal, from the late sixties. I do not support the death penalty at all, ever, for anyone, for anything. I think our entire prison system needs to be overhauled and that the way it is now is inhuman, barbaric, uncivilized, backward, brutal and immoral

Oh and I'm a socialist...just fyi and a 53 year old lesbian. I've been with the woman I am with for 15 years...and I am not on this planet to NOT disappoint you. (All that extra stuff was just because you seem to think you know me enough to be disappointed in me.)

Lee

[MiserableFailure]

67. Well there's really no point in discussing this anymore with you, then

We obviously don't agree on anything and I won't change my mind that these kids deserve harsh prison sentences and you won't change your mind that no one deserves to be punished for their crime.

All I can say is that I'm very glad that more people don't think like you do, because the world would be a far more dangerous place.

[Madspirit]

69. I never said crime doesn't need to be dealt with.

...but I am not a pound-of-flesher.

Lee

[BlooInBloo]

72. LOL! Really? You two don't agree on *anything*? Holy Drama Queen, Batman!

:rofl:

[Madspirit]

68. Really Lastly...BUT...

If I do agree with you on something I will support you and have your back, whether we get along or not. I have principles. Ask Bornagin. We don't much like each other but I agree with him often. I even recommend his threads WHEN I think they are Right On....
Lee

[MiserableFailure]

70. Thank you

I think part of the reason why we disagree so much is that my life experience is obviously a lot different from yours.

I was raised an Army brat in a rough neighborhood in DC, fortunately made it out because I had two parents who invested their time in me. Other kids in the neighborhood weren't so lucky. I was fortunate to be accepted into West Point and served 11 years in the Army after graduating. I saw some pretty fucked up shit in both Iraq and Kosovo, and after getting out I joined a sheriff's dept, where I see more fucked up shit in a week than I saw in a whole year in the military. These experiences probably jade my views when it comes to criminals and humanity in general.

[Solo_in_MD]

30. I am mixed

Its situational for me and should be used with discrestion and only with the permission of juvenile court

[mondo joe]

32. I'm opposed. You can logically say kids don't have the capacity to form consent to

have sex, or marry, or vote but they can to murder.

[Pithlet]

79. That's exactly it.

People who want to try children as adults aren't interested in justice. They're interested in revenge. There is no logic involved. I'm against it 100% of the time for that reason.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. I think it's insane. Period. nt

[tammywammy]

34. There are crimes that I agree with minors being tried as an adult

A 16 year old knows when he's pulling that trigger that it could kill someone.

I guess it just depends on the age and crime if I agree with it or not.

[VP505]

35. I have NO problem

with someone regardless of age being tried as an adult, however I have a lot of problem with sentencing a juvenile as an adult.

[MiserableFailure]

41. um

the whole point of trying someone as an adult is so you can give them an adult sentence.

[VP505]

42. I was talking

about putting a juvenile in an adult correctional facility, they can be sentence as an adult but incarcerated in a juvenile facility until they ARE an adult.

[MiserableFailure]

43. then why didn't you say that?

i'm not a mind-reader and no one would have gotten that from your post.

so you want to have juveniles serve adult-length sentences, but serve their juvenile years in juvenile prison? is that what you're saying?

[EFerrari]

40. I think it's wrong. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

44. Absolutely wrong.

It's insane. Until kids can do other adult activites, they shouldn't be tried as an adult.

[sammythecat]

48. I think it's wrong

There's a reason we don't call them adults.

[mykpart]

50. Minors have no other rights under the law.

They can't vote, they can't buy tobacco or alcohol, can't make a valid contract for anything, can't get medical attention without parental consent, can't see a dirty movie, can't buy firearms. If we can't allow them rights based on maturity and individual case, then we shouldn't punish them as adults either.

[Madspirit]

51. I DO NOT Approve

I would like our entire prison system overhauled and I certainly do not think children should be tried as adults. This makes me sick.
Lee

[Toucano]

52. Let 'em fry!

Just kidding.

I think it's objectionable, but I also know that - regardless of his problems - he knew killing his principal was wrong and he knew death was permanent.

I don't think two more years of living would have changed his actions.

A life sentence isn't really life, anyway.

The circumstances that produced his problems and the culture that creates that is sadder than the conviction, IMHO.

[Zomby Woof]

57. Is this another Duggar thread?

[Madspirit]

59. "Is this another Duggar thread?"

:rofl:

[cynatnite]

62. We bar them from drinking, joining the military and voting....

They don't have the maturity to understand those things. But when they commit crimes they want to make 'em adults so they can lock them up and throw away the key. Then they can pretend...yeah, he understood it like he's a fucking adult.

We're such a fucking hypocritical society. :puke:

[Madspirit]

64. Thank-you!...n/t

[undeterred]

73. We bar them from consenting to sexual intercourse too.

Under 18 is "jail bait".

[distantearlywarning]

75. Strongly against it.

It is unjust to demand that any citizen be expected to live up to the responsibilities of full citizenship without being given the rights that go along with it.

If we want to try 16 year olds as adults, then we also need to allow them to (among other things): vote, smoke cigarettes, be emancipated from their parents, engage in sexual activity, get married, have abortions without anyone's permission, drive on their own, be financially independent, drink alcohol (I don't believe in the 21 thing either - if you can go to war at age 18, you should be able to have a beer), make their own decisions about schooling, etc etc etc.

If we don't believe that 16 year olds are capable of deciding these kinds of things on their own, because they are not formed or learned enough yet to make "good" decisions which will benefit them and society, then we must also conclude that when they make bad decisions about things like criminal activity it is also as beings with diminished capacity. Any mismatch between these two things is illogical and unfair.

[undeterred]

76. And not to draw attention to the obvious

but I think adults bear the responsibilty for making sure that guns do not fall into the hands of teenagers, especially teenagers who are emotionally immature and unstable. This teen was acting out, but if he did not have access to a gun, his acting out would not have destroyed anyones life.

[leaninglib]

77. It depends...

If someone under 18 commits a wanton and deliberate act like taking someone's life, then their highest value (their life) should be surrendered as well.

It's simply a matter of non-discriminatory and fair minded justice.

[Nikia]

78. I disagree with it

The age of legal adulthood should not be arbitrary.

[bemildred]

82. Why not just call them adults if you are going to treat them like adults?

Why make the distinction in the first place if you don't intend to respect it?