For the Guys

[Madspirit]

After some of the disturbing responses I saw on some of todays posts about women and women's rights:


National Organization For Men Against Sexism

Pro-feminist, gay affirmative, anti-racist, enhancing men's lives:

http://www.nomas.org/


Here is another link with lots of links for straight men who care about ridding the world of sexism, homophobia and racism:

http://www.feminist.com/resources/links/links_men.html


Just a thought....

Lee

[Madspirit]

1. I'm kicking myself...n/t

[madokie]

22. well by gawd don't hurt yourself ;-)

[JeffR]

2. And I'll kick too

:kick:

[DeSwiss]

3. Proudly kicking this thread to #5!!!

:D

And thank you for those links...

DeSwiss :)

[gnvresident]

4. why are people lashing out at women?

Why are people trying to put down women? are they threatened by the fact Hillary is not afraid to run for office? Personally I am a female but choose to support John Edwards but I wonder why there is so much hatred brewing for woman right now.

[Hissyspit]

5. Welcome to DU, gnvresident!

:patriot:

:toast:

[Toasterlad]

9. Lotta Man-Bashing Going on Too.

I'm just sayin'.

:hide:

[Madspirit]

12. Toasterlad

You should check out the links. It's straight men talking to straight men. It's not anti-men at all. Good vibes all around and some things to maybe think about.
Lee

[Toasterlad]

16. I Wasn't Referring to These Links; I Meant Some of the Other Stuff Today.

I am not anti-woman. I've got three older sisters who I love dearly, and who would beat the crap out of me if they heard me talking misogynistic trash. However, I don't like it when ANY group gets painted with a broad brush, as SOME Feminists do to men. And the justification for that "all men are assholes" crap...don't get me started. "If you're not an asshole, they're not talking about YOU, are they?" Please. What a juvenile premise.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your thread. There is definitely a problem with sexism in this country (although I haven't been around DU long enough to honestly say I've seen one here), and I don't mind anyone getting the word out. I'd just prefer that they do it in as non-polarizing a manner as possible. It's EVERYBODY's problem if women are mistreated; alienating the men who would be willing to help is not a smart move.

[ThomCat]

17. Yet, nobody seems to worry about men alienating the women.

That gets brushed aside. It's that alienation that results in the frustrated threads here that then get called "male-bashing."

There is a very clear double standard here that men's egos have to be protected, but women have to be tough and take it.

I say this as a guy. The sexism is stark and ugly here, especially coming from some self-annointed lords on high.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. When was the last time that you read on DU an OP by a man

Instructing women on "how not to be an asshole" which includes the helpful advice that women should "shut the fuck up" with regards to the problems men face?

Many women suggest that in the society at large the problem of sexism against the genders is disproportionately against women. Although there are two sides, I don't really disagree with this. However, here at DU, this phenomenon is turned on its head. I can name a dozen posters who, if "men" were replaced with "women" in their posts, would have been banned years ago. I've read here that every man who has sex with a woman after having told her he loved her is guilty of rape. I have read that there's no such thing as sexism against men, discrimination against men is not only okay, but advisable. I have read here that sending the Duke Lacrosse players to jail was appropriate, regardless of the merits of the case, because it sends a message to men everywhere. I have read here that the fact that men live nearly 10% shorter lives than women is a non-problem because men deserve it. Andrea Yates was a misunderstood victim, while Rusty Yates deserves tho be in jail.

The belief that DU misogyny is rampant is analagous to the Republican party plank that equality is their core principle. It is a convenient fiction that enables them to continue doing what they do.

[salin]

44. I don't believe that misogyny is rampant at DU, however

when it appears - it often stands... that is the posts are often left open, not deleted. Sometimes they are highfived - but more often than not they are rebuked - but stand open. Right now on a thread a poster asserts that the reason for escalations in husbands/partners murdering their spouses/partners - is because the women won't stop talking - has to get the last word in and pushes the man to rage and murder. On that other thread a guy suggests that men have to be "assholes" to get dates with women under 30 - repeated it so it was clear he wasn't joking... harmless old joke, right? Left standing - telling all women under 30 that some believe that to date you they have to mistreat you - or go dateless. The point is - when you see it - esp having been a victim of either serious abuse or sexual assualt (or in my case, rape) - it takes your breath away. And when sometimes those comments initially get high fives (cause it is first stated as a joke and others get in on the joke) - it stings.

So, I wouldn't say misogyny runs amuk here. But when it comes up - it often stays up - especially if stated as a "joke". Just as you take a sample of postings to point out the absurdity from the one side - the same examples come up from the other. Neither is good. But one, unfortunately, does something that is harmful - though unintentional. To the person who does really harbor mysogynist beliefs - the "jokes" or worse stand to confirm those beliefs (See other guys get it) and empower the person when impulse strikes - to act on it. That isn't unique to DU at all - that is just how the psychology works - this is true of racism and homophobia.

[TahitiNut]

46. Use alert. I do.

If the moderators let it stand then email the adminstrators. I've not seen any "helpless girls" in need of a "big, strong guy" leaping in to "save them" - so I don't. (I don't tend to think the difference between right & wrong is based on what's between our legs, either.)

:shrug:

On edit: I'd be glad to stand up for you, though, if needed. :hug:

[salin]

47. thanks TahitiNut...

how are things up north? Its nice today, but its been a sweltering summer down here.

[TahitiNut]

49. Terrific! Close to Northern California weather. Low humidity, low 80s, and sunny.

Perfect top-down weather and patio dining (my favorite restaurants). I'm becoming a flower-person - after three winters, I'm starved for color enough that I'm turning my black thumb green and have planted pots of impatiens and begonias and petunias.

I LOVE summer. Sunshine, blue skies, and warm. All that's missing are oceans, coconut palm trees, and tanned people - preferably female.
:silly:

[spoony]

50. I so wish we could rec individual posts!

Well put.

[Madspirit]

18. I Still Suggest You Go to the Links

You might learn to "get" the anger, to understand where it comes from and why it exists. The oppressed being angry at the oppressor is not the same as the oppressor being oppressive. That is an essential tenet of liberation.

We can't get rid of oppression unless the ones who benefit from it OWN it AND face what it means. It is difficult because it means owning something unsavory about oneself and it means admitting the benefits born to the oppressor, stuff you don't even have to think about, second nature stuff, ways you are entitled from birth.

This is essential.
Lee

[Katherine Brengle]

21. Just to reiterate - no one EVER said "Men are assholes" ------ the article

was titled "How Not to be an Asshole: A Guide for Men" and it was written by a MAN.

Here it is again in case you'd like to read it this time: http://pandagon.net/2007/04/13/how-to-not-be-an-asshole-a-guide-for-men

[Toasterlad]

23. I 've Already Read It. And The Gender of the Author Is Irrelevant.

I already covered my feelings about the entire situation in the last thread. If it's of interest to you, you're welcome to view it there. I'd just rather move on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. If I post something from Ann Coulter, do I get carte blanche immunity from criticism?

Clearly, you reposted it (several times) because you felt it needed to be said.

Regardless of the spirit in which it was intended when you posted it, it was received like a baseball bat to the forehead. It did not win my heart and my mind to your cause.

[Madspirit]

42. If you need to be baby talked to, to be our ally, then you aren't....

The National Organization of Men Against Sexism:

"Whatever psychological burden men have to overcome, women are still the most universal and direct
victims of our patriarchy."

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. "Shut the fuck up" is quite far from the baby talk end of the communication spectrum.

Be clear about this. I am not the ally of those who think that sexism is a one way street. Besides, those who think men (in general) are the enemy really don't want me for an ally. To them, gender relations are war. War is not the paradigm to use to attain equality.

Although I found a few of the articles at the NOMAS site to be little more than collective guilt, there was quite a bit with which to agree.

[ThomCat]

10. A lot of petty minds who get defensive whenever women

acknowledge that sexism exists and get angry about it.

[TheBaldyMan]

15. Vagina envy.? n/t

[Clark2008]

27. More like uterus envy.

We give life.

My husband gets jealous (but not in a bad way, hear me out) because our newborn daughter prefers me to him. He wants a "Daddy's Girl" because I already have a "Mama's Boy." Not entirely Freudian, mind you - just a very common reaction among men. I was a Daddy's Girl.

Don't get me wrong, he's not snotty about it - just disappointed and, now that I think about it, a bit jealous that our daughter innately recognizes me because she spent nine months inside me and knows how I smell and breath, how my heart beats and how my stomach grumbles. She knows me. She's only getting to know him.

[DarkTirade]

6. The 'nomas' link seems to be less about sexism

and more about fighting all kinds of isms and irrational hatreds, of which sexism is of course a part. Which we need more of in this country. (the fighting against isms, not the sexism)
It also sounds funny when you pronounce it. Nomas. :)

[EFerrari]

13. No mas!

:)

[hfojvt]

52. you must know what that means

No?

I thought that was a cute acronym.

Nomas does put sexism at the top though, even though it's more all-inclusive.

[Change has come]

7. Very nice.

Recommended and bookmarked.

:kick:

[EFerrari]

8. Thanks for the links, Madspirit. Good idea.

K&R

[ThomCat]

11. Thank you! Awesome links.

:)

[TheBaldyMan]

14. k&r

[silverojo]

19. This post kicks ass

So I'm kicking IT! :kick:

[Katherine Brengle]

20. "Whatever psychological burden men have to overcome, women are still the most universal and direct

victims of our patriarchy."

That says it all right there!

Thank you for posting.

[helderheid]

24. rec 13

[dsc]

25. Great link

I appreciate this approach.

[Madspirit]

30. "I appreciate this approach."

Sometimes it's easy to forget, when you feel the walls of oppression closing in, that you really can catch more bees with honey...

Glad you like the links..

Lee

[Katherine Brengle]

26. Forgot to rec the first time.

[JudyM]

28. K&R. Thanks for posting these useful resources! nt

[Madspirit]

29. Kicking One Last Time...n/t

[Forkboy]

31. K&R

:kick:

[Madspirit]

33. Hey Forkboy!

:hug: How the hell are you? I haven't seen you around much lately.
Lee

[Forkboy]

54. Hey there!

I've been around,just keeping my mouth shut a bit. :)

:hug: to you too!!!!

[aikoaiko]

32. Thanks, I haven't checked out NOMAS in 10 years.

I sort of forgot they were out there.

[noamnety]

34. Tough Guise

I also want to recommend this movie:

Tough Guise: Violence, Media & the Crisis in Masculinity
http://www.mediaed.org/videos/MediaGenderAndDiversity/ToughGuise

Jackson Katz, who narrates it, is a former all-star football player who became the first man at the University of Massachusetts Amherst to earn a minor in women's studies.

There's a study guide for it online here: http://www.mediaed.org/videos/MediaGenderAndDiversity/ToughGuise/studyguide/html#sexualized

Some points from the study guide, which is worth looking at, even if you don't see the movie.

1. masculinity is made, not given (as opposed to maleness, which is biological);
2. media is the primary narrative, pedagogical force of our time;
3. media images of manhood - across distinctions of race, ethnicity, and socioeconomic class -- therefore play a pivotal role in making, shaping and recycling specific attitudes about manhood;
4. a sustained look at media images of manhood and violence reveals a widespread and disturbing equation of masculinity with pathological control and violence;
5. looking critically at constructed ideals of manhood by definition diminishes the otherwise silent power these very images might wield in shaping our perceptions of ourselves, our institutions and each other.

Some facts from the movie, sourced on the study guide link:
Males are most often both the victims and the perpetrators in 90% of homicides.

Over 85% of the people who commit murder are men and the majority of the women who commit murder usually do so as a defense against men who have been battering them for years. 90% of the women in jail for murder are there for killing male batterers.

Women commit about 15% of all homicides.

More than 90 women were murdered every week in 1991; 9 out of 10 were murdered by men.

90% of people who commit violent physical assault are men. Males perpetrate 95% of all serious domestic violence.

The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that 95% of reported assaults on spouses or ex-spouses are committed by men against women.

It is estimated that 1 in 4 men will use violence against his partner in his lifetime.

99.8% of the people in prison convicted of rape are men.

81% of men who beat their wives watched their fathers beat their mothers or were abused themselves.

Studies have found that men are responsible for 80% to 95% of child sexual abuse cases whether the child is male or female.

The majority of victims of men's violence are other men (76% M, 24% F).

Out of 10,000 cases of road rage over 95% of them were committed by men.

76% of binge drinkers are young males.

Males cause 86% of all drinking and driving incidents.

One in 12, or 8.2 million women, will be stalked at some point in their lifetime. 80% of the women stalked by intimates had also been physically assaulted by them.

[Madspirit]

39. Thank-you!

I often post stats like this. I think it is very important people "get" the violence perpetrated against women, particularly by the very person they are intimate with.
Lee

[Nikia]

35. I think that is great that there are pro feminist men's groups

I think that this really will help combat patriarchy.

[Madspirit]

41. There used to be a lot of pro-feminist men's groups

Back in the day...I've been a radical since the late 60s....raising one's consciousness was actually considered important.

Lee

[RB TexLa]

36. Just treat everyone the same and then you never have to worry about anything

[Madspirit]

40. Uh huh...

The National Organization of Men Against Sexism:

"Whatever psychological burden men have to overcome, women are still the most universal and direct
victims of our patriarchy."

[dorkulon]

43. Could someone please tell me what we're talking about?

I missed the festivities, and am scratching my head at the aftermath.

[goodgd_yall]

45. Good post and thank you for the links n/t

[shadowknows69]

48. Don't know if you consider me to be one of the offenders, hope not

But I'll kick anything of yours Madspirit.

[skids]

53. Pardon me for asking...

... I must be living under a rock. There seem to be a whole lot of sexism threads compared to usual... but damned if I can figure out why. Usually there's some sort of news item causing these types of issues to "come back in vogue" (not to minimize them mind you) but apparently I'm behind on my viewing of MSM and can't figure out the context.

[newportdadde]

55. Like many subjects every so often these threads will show up at the same time.

Often its a news item or comment made by a poster.. then the PM lists go into action. This time appears to be different although I'll admit I haven't been on DU a whole lot the past few days. Perhaps a coordinated effort.. who knows.. :shrug:

[Madspirit]

56. "come back in vogue"

That does pretty much minimize it. Our rights and treatment are not a fashion statement.
Lee