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Coyotes shot in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park by U.S. Department of Agriculture

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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:48 PM
Original message
Coyotes shot in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park by U.S. Department of Agriculture
(07-16) 11:49 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- Two coyotes believed to have attacked a pair of leashed dogs in Golden Gate Park on Saturday were shot and killed Sunday night by officials from the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

The state's department of Fish and Game decided to destroy the animals after investigating the situation and determining there was a significant public safety risk, Deb Campbell of Animal Care and Control said today.

Kyle Orr, a spokesman for Fish and Game, said the animals -- a male and a female -- were shot around 10:30 p.m. within 100 feet of where the dogs had been attacked. Officials cannot be completely sure they were the same animals, he said, but the pair's proximity to the attack site led them to believe that they were the same coyotes.

The attack occurred about 9 a.m. Saturday, when a woman was walking her two large dogs along a path just south of Speedway Meadow near a large pile of mulch. Two coyotes bit one of the dogs, inflicting minor injuries, and lunged at the other, according to city animal control officials. On Sunday, a female dog-walker said two coyotes followed her in the same area, authorities said.

more: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/16...


Typical government response: shoot first and questions later. Sickening... The animals can't be drugged and relocated?
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Coyotes are considered vermin
A policy I don't agree with, but that's the prevailing attitude toward them.

They aren't endangered, so there's no concern about the survival of individuals.

I also question the shooting of them in a public park. That seems to be a reckless disregard for safety. Also, what if they only wounded one, and it attacked out of fear and pain? It seems pretty heavy handed to me.

As a responsible dog owner, I have my dog's rabies shots up to date, so there's no need for an animal who bit her to be killed in order to be tested.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I have owned some coyote hybrids.
They are unbelievably cool animals.

I am in Tiburon, north across the Bay from SF and people here are absolutely terrified of the encroaching coyote population. Afraid little FiFi or whatever is going to be a night-time snack when she goes out to pee.

Hey, they were here first.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I love all canides. They are an amazing branch of the Tree of Life
It's sad that so many people don't respect the wild things.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
72. I had a part coyote pet
She was a sweet, smart beautiful animal. She would mother anything.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. Because some people like to kill things for "sport" so it justifies murdering them
Call them "vermin" and legitimize it by creating a group called the Department of Agriculture, and there ya go, it allows a green light to kill anything because 'it's the law'.

Sounds kind of like some people labeling Iraqi residents 'insurgent's.

The power of labels is very well, powerful and potentially very dangerous and harmful.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
90. Amen
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #66
91. Erm, you did read the part of my post that said I disagreed
with that label, right?

I just want to make sure your comments are rhetorical and not directed at me.
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demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. We take away their homes.....
to build ours. That means taking away their food and shelter and then when they get hungry and come back we shoot them. :cry:
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. This year, with the drought here in California, the coyotes are having a hard time
I heard that 4 cats in my neighborhood have been attacked. :cry:

I feel bad for the coyotes, who are only coming down to where I am because they are starving.

I will now only let my cats out in our fenced backyard when I am out there with them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. But here by the park, there is plenty of refuse, plenty of food and
water for them because of all the tourists and because of how lazy people are about putting away their stuff.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. They do just fine in SoCal suburban areas
There's plenty of water available.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
68. well, if they are coming down into areas where they usually aren't seen, I don't think...
...that is a good thing. Here in Burbank, they usually stay near the foothills. I live pretty far from them, and to hear there was a coyote in my neighborhood was a bit of a shock.

I wish there was something I could do to help them, but I know that is dangerous.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Some kindly fool in my neighborhood started feeding them
She thought the pups were cute, until her 7-year-old daughter got bitten.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Dry year. Coyotes will be looking for food, deer will be running across the freeways for water,
can't blame 'em.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
93. eek that means the scorpians and tarantula's will be coming
:hide: I live near Mt Diablo
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. I saw one walking down my street in the middle of the city once. It was majestic,
looked like a small wolf. quite beautiful.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. They are incredibly intelligent and inquisitive.
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 08:15 PM by TomInTib
Once tamed, they are an absolute joy to be around.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. (aside) I don't favor domesticating coyotes, fwiw. There's lots of
Edited on Mon Jul-16-07 09:25 PM by pinto
domesticated canines in the 'pound' looking for good homes.

:hi:

ed for spell
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I am just a fool for non-domesticated animals.
I had an elephant for a companion until I was 13 years old (she slept outside my bedroom window).

And I am involved in "rescue" (Marin Humane Society).

But a coyote hybrid would just blow you away.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Probably. They are beauts. I love their awareness. And that lean look.
Still favor leaving them be, as much as we can, though.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Mine came to me.
And it is a long story.

I am with you on your premise.

But when they come to us, we must accept them.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. July 5th, 4 am
I'm a truck driver. I opened the gate to get my truck and start my route, and was startled to come face-to-face with a coyote who had taken refuge from the previous hours of bombardment.

We scared the crap out of each other, but we both will live on.

I'm more worried about the plants, wild birds and amphibians and other less sensitive species who are endangered by human encroachment, and how their loss will affect the environment.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. @ssholes! My pup and I have encountered coyotes more than once.
You shoo them away and off they go. I don't believe this story.

:mad:
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I think there was concern they had rabies or were otherwise sick--they attacked a couple of....
...rhodesian ridgebacks, which are big dogs. They're usually fairly timid creatures, so this was very unusual behavior.

I feel awful that they shot them, but I do understand the concern given the unusual behavior. :-(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You may have a point there. In this corner of the park
we sight coyotes all the time. And they don't behave like that. :(
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. I bet they had a den nearby...
There is no other reason they would even show themselves to the dogs.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Regardless, it's still not typical coyote behavior to attack another dog larger than they are. n/t
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. It's not normal for two animals with rabies to be working together either
and if those dogs got too close to the den, (as in a few feet) the coyotes would try to protect the pups.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. You're missing the point.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 11:51 AM by Shakespeare
Rabies or not, their behavior is abnormal. That could be because they're sick, hungry or have something else going on that has altered their behavior. If they'll charge a couple of Rhodesian Ridgebacks bigger than they are, they'll also go after humans--something no coyote generally does. It's not safe for them to remain in an urban park setting given that behavior, and you certainly don't relocate an animal who is exhibiting abnormal behavior (because relocating won't change the behavior).

It's highly unlikely they were close to a den (not sure how familiar you are with GG Park).

edited to include this from the updated sfgate.com story:

No one knows why the two coyotes became so aggressive. One possibility is that they were protecting a den, but no cubs were found and the female had not been lactating. There was no immediate evidence of disease, although the USDA is holding the carcasses in case officials decide a necropsy is needed.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. not familiar at all with the park, grew up with coyotes...
They crossed our front yard every morning, yet we rarely lost any livestock or pets, because our black lab kept them at a certain radius. The only time I've seen a coyote stand up to her is when she and I were passing within 3ft of a den. Just the momma though, so I'm not completely familiar with the males behavior in that situation.
Rabies behavior I am also pretty familiar with, and I can't recall any canines (except pets) where the animal was not a loner, driven out of the pack by their behavior or sickness. Sick with something else? Very possibly. Hunger, I doubt. By the time they got that desperate they would be to weak to attempt it.

I agree that they had to be removed from such a populated area, and this was the only option.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. There may be just too many in the park right now. Doesn't
overcrowding make animals nuts just as it makes us nuts? (Present company excepted, of course. :) )
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. yes, nature meets 'civilization'
bout sums it up. :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I hope we're not facing a problem similar to the Yosemite bear problem.
It seems to me that there are too many coyotes in the Park and I wish the Park Service would relocate some of them before we see more of this weird behavior. The coyotes are very beautiful and you'd think in CA we have enough parklands where they could be placed.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. If you check out the updated story on sfgate, they talk about that.
They're pretty sure there are more coyotes in the park, and have no problem with that. Given normal coyote behavior, there shouldn't be a problem co-existing in the park unless something goes wrong with the behavior, as it apparently did this time.

I think they're fascinating animals--I'm glad park officials are happy to let the others remain.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. If I'm seeing them on walks, there certainly are more.
Sometimes I take my pup to the enclosed dog park within the park. Often, young coyotes come and watch the dogs playing inside the enclosure. They sit quietly in the meadow and probably wonder how come those dogs hang out with the two leggeds.

I will go read the update. Thanks.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. There's one line in the story that cracks me up....
Where they're talking about another person encountering the two aggressive coyotes (after the rhodesian ridgeback attack), and says the coyotes showed a "culinary interest" in a couple of jack russell terriers.

:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. LOL! That's hilarious!
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. Rhodesian Ridgebacks?
WTF? Now this story is really suspect. One thing coyotes are not is stupid. I'm betting the dog owner put the hounds on the chase after the coyotes.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. No, the dogs were leashed.
The pair went after other dogs after this incident. The story's not suspect--the whole point is that the coyotes were exhibiting bizarre behavior, an indication that something's very wrong.
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. Something's wrong alright
with the story.

Ridgebacks are also known as Van Rooyen's Lion Dogs. They were bred to hunt LIONS, and known to be fearless in the face of danger, particularly if there were two. My sister has had Ridgebacks for 25 years, in Africa they commonly weighed 85 pounds but she has had them weigh over 125 which is common in the states. They are not poodles.

I'm saying this story seems suspect, must not be any shark or alligator stories out there yet this summer.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. I just don't understand why you see it as suspect.
This isn't a "shark" diversion; if you're familiar with the collective psyche of San Francisco, it's quite predictable that everybody would flip out that the coyotes were shot (I'm sad they were shot, but I understand why). As for the level of coverage, I'm not seeing this covered nearly as heavily as the shark stories.

Here in SoCal, the drought has pushed the coyotes down into residential neighborhoods much more than usual, so we're seeing that in the news quite a bit right now, as it's a legitimate public safety issue. So far, no tragic encounters with the canids, but the chances are much greater right now.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
85. I hear what you're saying and that was my first thought.
On reflection, it seems to me to be more about crowding than anything.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Only because you were there
A coyote won't attack something larger than itself, unless it is rabid. If your pup was alone......well, I won't say it.

I'm pretty sure one of my cats was taken by a coyote a few years back. I know one killed two goats in my area recently.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. When I lived on my mom's ranch, we lost pets and livestock to coyotes.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:48 AM by sfexpat2000
And, we'll probably never forgive ourselves for that. Cats, chickens, geese. We were pretty green.

But, out here by the park, it's hard to imagine anything but a rabid animal behaving that way exactly because there are so many people around all the time. For a pair to do that is a real stretch. :(
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm not familiar with that area.....
....not living there, but I can tell you that having worked in a state park for ten years, wild animals over time become almost domesticated. Squirrels especially. I've seen raccoons, who avoid coming out during the day, approach picnic tables to get food from people in the middle of the day. It's a real problem, because raccoons can become very aggressive if they think the reward of food is great enough for them. Plus the fact they are very prone to having rabies making it difficult to figure out which are sick and which are just being overly curious for their own good.

I can't imagine these coyotes were around anyone long enough to become "domesticated" however. There is a mutual fear between humans and coyotes, so one or the other runs. They must have been rabid. But sometimes, you wonder if the attacker was really a fox. You'd be surprised at how many people confuse the two, and foxes can be shockingly vicious.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I used to do a lot of camping and sat through many lectures
on how to avoid bears in your tent. One night, our whole campground was woken up at about 2 in the morning because this one lady managed to forget not to keep M$Ms in her tent after she sat right next to me and heard the ranger's whole talk. lol

In this case, I can imagine one rabid coyote but two? That's what's weird.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. One of the news stations (dunno which) reported that there was also a growling at humans event
at roughly the same location in the park on the same day. If that's true, it's weirdly aggressive for coyotes. Officials guessed that maybe the pair had young nearby but the female wasn't lactating.

I've encountered coyotes out here on a regular basis and never have seen any threatening behavior -- they want to get away from humans without being noticed. They are hunting in the residential areas this year because of the dry winter. The lost cat signs are up everywhere.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. My one close encounter with a coyote
was when too much coffee forced me forced me to pull off a road in Oregon. For the sake of discretion, I went down the bank toward the river for cover rather than display my problem to passing motorists. While relieving myself, a coyote walked up from the river and, from a few feet way, gave me a glance.

The message I got, although this is certainly projection, was "You're pissing a few yards uphill from the public water supply? What kind of animal are you?" At any rate, it was a treasured encounter with a noble being, and not threatening in any way at all.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. I'm usually on the side of the coyotes
but I can understand why they shot these guys.

Attacking a BIG dog indicates aggression... GG park is a busy park with a lot of dogs and a lot of kids. You can't just let coyotes run around picking off housepets... or kids... in an urban park like that.

Okay, maybe they should have tranquilized and relocated them, but to where? Anywhere they would put them would already be coyote territory. Coyotes do not take kindly to strangers. :(
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Bastards!
x(

I love Coyotes.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Sounds like they were rabid
Coyotes won't attack like that unless they are sick. And I'm sorry, but you can't fool with any rabid animal. I've seen a sick raccoon take two body shots from a game warden's .45 service revolver and keep charging.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
59. Yikes!
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. I bet those dogs were off-leash.
If they can capture a coyote in the Presidio and fit it with a tracking collar, they can capture these ones as well.

Killing them should be the last resort.

I have seen coyotes twice in the past few weeks, but I'm sure as hell not telling these shoot first gun-nuts where they were.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I know there's a den in the corner of the park close to my place
because at dusk, I've seen a young coyote out looking for water. I was afraid he'd get hit by a car.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. I lost three cats to coyotes this year
but, I would still prefer they be drugged and relocated as a first choice.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
70. It's hard. My friend lost her cat to a coyote. She makes sure they are all inside at night now.
One of her cats was left outside and it is assumed a coyote got her.

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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Yup -- that's what happened to ours over the span of the last year
The first was an older, experienced cat we had just adopted -- she, I think, had been an outdoor cat before and she got out under foot one day -- and never came home. We hoped she was just seeking out her previous owner, or found a new home -- but, I also suspected the coyotes because we frequently hear them at night.

The other two, both older kittens, were to be strictly indoor cats. But, we have a older, diabetic dog, and, he needs access to outside at night. We thought we had it rigged to keep the cats in but still let the dog have outdoor access -- well, the cats proved us wrong. Sadly, one got out first -- the little female, who didn't have much chance. Then several weeks later, the male got out one night about 1am -- I had heard coyotes that night, but was unaware the cat was out. I could kick myself for not getting up to check. I'm just heartbroken about these losses -- I am responsible, after all, for their safety.

We have new development in our area, and neighbors have reported seeing coyotes running the streets. We live in the city, but our house backs up against a gully where a stream runs. The wild life has been pushed into our residential neighborhood because of recent development (Hello, Walmart). The raccoons ate all of our fish in our little pond last year, and now, the cats are gone. I'm heartbroken about the cats. We worked so hard to keep them inside, knowing that the coyotes have moved in closer in recent years. We used to hear them in the hills out back -- now, I can hear them in the front of the house, roaming the streets.

We will not adopt a new cat until we can better ensure their safety. That will likely be when my old dog is no longer with us -- which is another sad story for another time, as he is in rapid decline. Needless to say, it has been an emotional time for my family with the recent losses ... and anticipated loss of my old friend.

;(
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
32. Jeez, they were probably protecting pups or something...
this is disgusting to me. I've protected my small animals and livestock from coyotes all of my life, never seen them or ever heard of them actually attacking a dog even close to their same size. Not even when cornered...they'll freeze and just stand there and glare at you, head down, high-pitched growl at a big dog, climb a six-foot fence to go the other way and get out of trouble, avoid confrontation. What do those authorities think...coyotes are stupid or something? They will run a dog, to wear it down or move it away from their den or territory, but no way would they grab or tangle with two huge dogs. I don't believe the story of either this dog-walker or the jackasses who went in and hunted down those two coyotes.



Rhodesian Ridgeback (TWO of these supposedly attacked by coyotes, plus human was also present)


average dead coyote

Does not compute
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. UNLESS they were rabid
Geez guys, if an animal is doing something outside it's normal pattern.........figure it out.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Where's the report that Rabies has been detected in San Francisco?
My daughter lives there, with her dog...Rabies is NOT just a spontaneous disease, canines don't come down with it from nowhere...is there Rabies in San Francisco?

I've never heard of animals mad with Hydrophobia working in concert with their mate or any other animal, either. It's a disease of wild, erratic behavior, lashing out at anything and everything, loss of instincts and rationality. Are that woman's pets being tested for exposure to Rabies?

I'll believe those coyotes were sick when I hear the Rabies report, which will come, if they had it.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. They don't have to be rabid to be dangerous.
The analogy that comes to mind is the similar problem with bears who've been (stupidly) fed by people, who then lose their innate fear of humans; this makes them very dangerous.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. And, they've learned how to read, too. Once a bear can read
"Coleman" and "Tostitos", you have a problem!
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. ROTFLMAO!
I'd rather that all the folk of suburbia were forced to paint the word "DINNER" on all of their little toy dogs and cats, when they complain that the wild animals they've displaced want to eat their pets!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I used to take our family to Yosemite every year for two weeks
in the summer.

And, there were lectures about bear behavior and food storage just about every night.

Every year, some idiot (or, multiple idiots) would leave food out or leave a cooler visible in their car and some smart bear would have to pay for it.

Face it, they're smarter than the average camper. :)
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. Ya, I hiked there decades ago, where finding two trees...
that were the perfect distance apart, for suspending your foodstuff, pans, and packs, was the main component of finding the best campsite. Also had a grizzly rip up the corner of a tent, once, when the couple we were backpacking with kept some clothes they'd spilled something on, right there inside their tent. I quit going camping down there when they shipped all the grizzlies out of Yosemite, to accomodate the hikers and campers. But nothin' nicer than sleeping out in the open at Tuolumne Meadows, loved that place.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. I didn't know there were ever grizzlies in Yosemite.
Edited on Tue Jul-17-07 12:50 PM by sfexpat2000
I love every rock and tree in that place. My kids learned to swim there and I learned how to key out plants there. We all learned how little consuming it really takes to have a great day. lol
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. How do you think that big ol' grizzly ended up on our state flag?
Unfortunately, we hunted them to extinction in California many decades ago. :-(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. Shows you how much I know. Thought that was a black bear!
:blush:
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I think we may be the only state that has an extinct animal as its official state animal.
Kinda sad, huh. :-(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Really sad.
:(
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. They moved 'em all back in the 60s & 70s...
there was this rich-folk "resort" (can't remember what it was called off-hand) close to Tuolumne, where they could ride mules and horses in. We used to go to the dump for that eyesore in the wilderness, just to watch grizzlies "feeding" on people garbage. I always wished that they'd removed that stupid lazy-people "get-away" than eliminating the poor bears. But yeah, they became a real serious problem for hikers, once they learned of all the yummies associated with humans, from that damn garbage dump. As you've said, "smarter than the average camper", ha!
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. That is 100% incorrect.
See my other post to you in this subthread. Grizzlies were NOT relocated out of California. They were hunted to extinction by 1908.

As I said already, if you encountered bears around Tuolumne, they weren't grizzlies, but most likely the common black bear (which may be either black or brown, as the name's a misnomer).
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. Grizzlies were extinct in California by 1908.
They weren't relocated, they were hunted to extinction. If a bear got into your provisions, it wasn't a grizzly.

http://www.grizzlybear.org/gbmap/camap.html
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. I know that...
but the dump up near Tuolumne Meadows had them in the 60s, there were rangers "guiding" the people staying in that "resort" to "view" them "feeding". We were standing right next to the ranger guy when he was pointing out the difference between the normal "brown" black bear there and the grizzlies with the light ridge up their back...he was also announcing that the last grizzly was killed back in the 20s in CA, but the park was attempting to reintroduce them. Ten years later, that failed, and they moved them back out, cause of the danger of such an aggressive animal becoming acclimated to human food.

I know what I heard and saw with my own eyes. Think that forest ranger didn't know what he was talking about? I even have a little yellow flyer that I saved from Yosemite, somewhere in all of my history, that speaks of those grizzlies and shows their profile, compared to the black bear, and warns of their nature.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. No, the park has never attempted to reintroduce them....
....and no, I don't believe you saw a grizzly in California in the 1960s. ANYWHERE in California (with the exception, of course, of a zoo).

If the park ranger told you you were looking at a grizzly, he was dead wrong.

There has been talk over the years of trying to reintroduce the grizzly in California, but it's been shot down every time.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. He was speaking to those people staying at that resort...
so, considering that they were about as green to wildness as could possibly be, I'll believe you that he was probably pulling somebody's leg, but maybe it was that commercial "camping" enterprise that just put some zoo grizzlies at that pit, to entertain those rich people. I don't think that place was affiliated with the Park Service, at all, cause we had California friends who were all up in arms, trying to have it shut down, for the sake of keeping wilderness wild and keeping the Park natural.

I won't go dig up my pamphlet on those "tours", cause it's not important enough to argue, and I am well aware that the extinction of grizzlies in California is due to stupid population boom there.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #65
89. Correction...
couldn't have been a grizzly did the ripping, but it was definitely a stupid human who went to sleep in the woods with food smells all over herself.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. BWAHAHAHAHA! There's that whole "culinary interest" thing again.
That may be the crux of the problem; we can't co-exist with wild animals as foodies. :rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. We are as flies to these beautiful animals, Shakespeare.
:)
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peacebuzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
34. Another story gone wrong.
Coyotes don't stand a chance anymore, along with the rest of the american fauna.

Not enough voices to defend the critters vs. the guns.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. I have to disagree
Coyotes have adapted well to living near and among human populations. I've seen no evidence that their numbers are declining.

They're intelligent and flexible, and so stealthy they're hard to catch.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. As humans crowd out the traditional lands of various species,
the various species will learn to adapt to their new surroundings.

We caused this. Not the coyotes.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
36. I think the coyotes in my 'hood got a cat or small dog last night
I heard a pup yapping at 2:00 AM.

I keep my cats in at night. If I ever see a coyote on my property I'll seriously consider shooting it.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
39. Shooting coyotes in the wild is SOP in the Midwest
In South Dakokota, where I used to live, it is the state animal. They have replaced the wolf as predator in the ecological niche. Hunting of them is also strongly encouraged because of their breeding habits.

Unlike deer, elk, ducks, geese, pheasants, etc., there are virtually no restrictions on hunting coyotes. They can be shot day or night. They can be shot with any caliber and capacity firearm. You can use night-vision optics and spotlights, too, IIRC. Any gender can be taken, and in unlimited numbers. All you need is either any other hunting permit or a $5 predator/varmit licence, available at most any gas station.

When a human displays this kind of behavior, like that Korean guy that shot up Virginia Tech, or the two students that shot up Columbine, one common question is "how many people saw this coming and didn't do anything about it?"

I point specifically to the recent thread about a female singer shot dead in a bar, apparently by her sharpshooting husband. Reply #2:How many people saw this coming and did nothing?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... et. seq.

Well, now we had warning signs, and we acted to eliminate them. Rhodesian Ridgebacks are big, waist high, and coyotes are small, knee high. And the little ones are attacking the big ones. It's a sign we can't ignore.

Yeah, we could have done it other ways, but how much effort can reasonably be expected of a public agency that, I would suspect, is chronically understaffed and underfunded? Two small-caliber cartridges cost about a buck total, and the bodies can be disposed of immediately. What are the costs of capturing and relocating the questionable coyotes to, say, New Mexico? A thousand dollars? More?

The fact that the California park rangers decided to use a rifle in a busy public park in a maniac anti-gun, anti-hunting, animal rights state like California tells me that they did not see any other reasonable choice.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
63. A maniac anti-gun, anti-hunting, animal rights state?
You are too kind. I'm proud my state seeks intelligent and creative solutions to ecological problems. Too bad more don't.

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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
95. This isn't an ecological problem
It's a wild animal problem. More specifically, a pair specific wild animals attacking people.

The overall, macro, strategic ecology of the area needs intelligent and creative solutions, just like any other broad problem such as crime, poverty, industry, education... the list goes on. But, when faced with a specific problem caused by a specific person or business or school, directness of effort is needed.

An intelligent and creative plan to limit coyote/human interaction is desirable. However, when that plan fails, for example, due to rabies or drought or wildfire, other actions that are specific to the failure must be taken.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Of course it is an ecological problem. And since there was
"directness of effort" applied, you really need to stop insulting California or be inconsistent with your own assertions.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-07 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #99
104. Too many coyote/human interactions is an ecological problem
Fixes may include rerouting trails, for example, to put more distance between people and animals.

These two coyotes were a public-safety problem.

And I don't think I was insulting California. At least not in this thread... :-)
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
71. As in Texas. They are essentially treated like rats there.
at least from what I can remember.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
41. the coyotes woke me up the other morning with their howling...
apparently they got a raccoon, because when i went out later, there was a big bloody patch in the grass, some bits of fur, and a raccoon snout laying nearby.

the way they seem to be multiplying all across the country, i have no problems with them being thinned out- especially in urban areas.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
62. Coyotes are adapting successfully.
Proximity to humans has not yet endangered their species.

That means that they will continue to compete with human populations for territory, and human pets that are natural prey will be at risk.

I admire coyotes. I've lived among them most of my life. I've lost pets to them, despite taking precautions. While that saddens me, I don't blame the coyotes for being coyotes. Neither do I think I should be wiping them out. Or even "limiting their numbers." The overpopulation of the human species is the largest risk to the planet, to ecosystems, habitats, and other species. Any efforts to limit, manage, or control numbers should start there.

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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
69. They found one in Detroit recently
Down by the river near the Renaissance Center. They tranked it and took it back to the wild. It got confused and followed the river from somewhere else. There's a group of them living on Grosse Ille, which is a pretty habitated island.
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lettre de cachet Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
97. Bell Creek Park
I saw one crossing the road from Bell Creek Park at 5 Mile and Inkster in Redford earlier this year. A friend of mine in Farmington Hills had a coyote hop his fence and impregnate his dog. Another friend told me they're running with packs of stray dogs in Detroit.
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madhoosier Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
101. There have been several in downtown Chicago.
One went into a 7/11 and laid down by the soft drink cooler, it was captured by animal control officers and relocated after a check-up by a vet., others have been seen on the beach along Lake Michigan and another swimming in the river in Chicago. There are lots of coyotes in north central Indiana, out here in rural Indiana they are hunted enough that they don't mess with many domestic pets that are close to a house. They will prey on lambs so the few farmers that still raise sheep pasture donkeys with their sheep, the donkeys consider the sheep to be part of their herd and will defend the sheep against coyotes.

A few years ago the local packs of coyotes had all staked out territory like the slices of a pie with my house located in the center. At night one pack would start howling then the others would join in, we'd hear as many as six packs howling at once. You'd think "I'm glad those aren't wolves."
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
80. there is no place to relocate coyotes, there is a huge overpopulation
coyotes have spread far outside their natural range all across the usa, so there isn't any purpose to drugging and capturing them, as there is no habitat for all of them

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Are you talking about coyotes, or humans? n/t
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
87. maybe you can open a coyote sanctuary and take them in to your home,
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. Whereas youd love to open a slaughterhouse for eu de coyote meat, hmm?
your username "Comerperro" says it all.

You want to kill em, why not give them a twelve gauge as well Comer?

It's only fair, and we know how much el Anglo loves things fair.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
92. Thanks for the warning.
:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Be careful out there! -- Hill Street Blues
:)
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
98. Locals are NOT happy with this....
The first story in the morning was the coyotes had attacked a pair of leashed dogs, mildly injuring one of them. Our local wildlife people said it was most likely because they were a mating pair and may have had pups nearby.

Next time I check the story I find they had been destroyed -- NO attempt to move them, NO attempt to find another solution -- just shot dead.

Everyone I work with was appalled when I made the announcement. I was appalled -- and I say this as someone who lost a cat to coyotes the night before the Tahoe fire.

In the past few years, out city has seen a number of coyotes coming to stay in various parks across the town, including one just two blocks from me. It is a new situation we are all trying to deal with, and we are trying to discover ways we can ALL live here peaceable.

Shoot first is NOT our solution of choice. :mad:

I have already contacted the Mayor's and my Superivor's offices with my extreme displeaure, and I plan on following this story closely.


SHAME ON FISH AND GAME FOR ACTING IS SUCH A RASH MANNER! :mad:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. I don't even know if I HAVE a supervisor -- Chew.
:shrug:

I'll call Gavin's office but that usually gets me slick nowhere. :(
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. The Supe who doesn't live in SF?
yikes, what a flaming mess THAT is!

Well, I think I am also going to contact Tommy, Jake, Chris, Sophie, Aaron, and Angela -- heck, all the rest of the Supes -- just for good measure. I am sure of there is enough public pressure, they will do something to make sure actions like this never happen in the future. :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-18-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Good call! I'll do the same.
:hi:
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