The Two Redacted Pages: Fitz Was Prevented From Identifying A Different Culprit (DICK)

[kpete]

The Two Redacted Pages
by emptywheel

He starts by making the argument about obstruction that I've been making for so long, suggesting that the lies Rove and Libby told even still might be preventing Fitzgerald from identifying culprits. That's a particularly curious formulation since Fitzgerald had two suspects, Rove and Libby, in his sights, and if it referred to them you'd think Tatel might have mentioned intent, rather than culprit, which was one of two things preventing an IIPA indictment of them. But it mentions culprit, which suggests that Fitzgerald was prevented from identifying a different culprit--Dick.

And then Tatel goes on to imply that a perjury indictment might be one stage toward further indictments.

Thus, given the compelling showing of need and exhaustion, plus the sharply tilted balance between harm and news value, the special counsel may overcome the reporters’ qualified privilege, even if his only purpose—at least at this stage of his investigation—is to shore up perjury charges against leading suspects such as Libby and Rove.

The allusion to potential follow-on indictments suggests that Tatel has seen the evidence of something more there. Perhaps it's evidence of intention on the part of Rove and Libby and maybe Armitage, which could lead to IIPA charges. Or perhaps it's evidence of direct criminal involvement on the part of Cheney. But there's something more there--and something in those two redacted pages must support the argument that there is something more. I happen to think it's Dick, but then I see Dick lurking everywhere in this story.


http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs/common/opinions/200502/04-3138a.pdf
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/06/the-two-redacte.html#more

[alfredo]

1. Everyone knows The Dick was the source, but getting proof that will

stand up in court is the problem.

The Dick must be removed, even if it is in shackles.

[UTUSN]

2. K&R #1 n/t

[liberal N proud]

3. K&R#5

[blm]

4. And THIS is what Jason Leopold knew. Amazing how corpmedia can manipulate even DUers

to believe what they WANT believed.

[symbolman]

31. No, my friend

Leopold KNEW that Karl ROve had been INDICTED.

In short he was WRONG, on that and many other counts.

And yes, I've seen the thread that supposedly "vindicates" him, and it does nothing of the sort, just more speculation, maybe from people I respect more, but still speculation.

I know what I saw, and it was either Horrible Reporting, a lie, or lack of any sources.. as you recall the sources dwindled to nothing.

[The Count]

39. There were some misinformers here who garnered a fan club due to their

"scintillating" snark...The fans are oblivious to the fact that their shining role model also defended Karl, attacked the Wilsons and Fitz.
There is an appeal in cruelty and piling on - not just for the freepers apparently.
They are still traveling in packs - ready to pounce on anything with the name Leopold on them - a bit shy of this topic though.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

5. Speculation aside, is Fitzgerald's investigation still active?

Just wondering.

[KharmaTrain]

6. He Left A Small Door Open

Surely if some email or other compelling evidence comes out that proves crashcart gave the orders...like a tape or handwritten letter...ironclad...he could re-open.

More likely is he'd refer whatever information to Conyers and the Judiciary Committee.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

7. That's why I was wondering.

He seemed to basically say, "it's up to Congress, now". So, I figured he'd let it go. However, I do recall that he has authority to follow this damn thing to its conclusion.

[KharmaTrain]

8. I Don't Think It Would Take Much...

...to get the Judge to allow him to reconvene a grand jury and present new evidence. I'm not sure...I'm sure H2O Man or one of the other expert Plameologists here know the status of the Grand Jury.

I suspect that with Conyers in charge, Fitzgerald would turn material over to him...and let Conyers determine if there's criminality involved. I expect that we may get more action in the Wilson's civil suit...forcing discovery and compelling testimony. It all hinges on how far and deep "Executive Privilidge" is allowed to extend.

Cheers...

[Spazito]

9. Here is what Patrick Fitzgerald said regarding the investigation

during the press conference re Libby:

I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently to be sure that we've done what we could to make intelligent decisions about when to end the investigation. We hope to do that as soon as possible. I just hope that people will take a deep breath and just allow us to continue to what we have to do. (pdf page 7)

and this:

QUESTION: You noted earlier that the Grand jury's term expired but you said something about holding it open? Or will you be working with a new Grand jury?


MR. FITZGERALD: The Grand jury by its terms can serve -- it was an 18-month Grand jury by statute, to my understanding, can only be extended six months. That six months expired. It's routine in long investigations that you would have available a new Grand jury if you needed to go back to them. And that's nothing unusual. I don't want to raise any expectations by that, that's an ordinary practice. (pdf page 12)

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/2005_10_28_fitzgerald_press_conference.pdf



and this from firedoglake live blogging of the Fitzgerald press conference after Libby conviction:

Is your investigation over now? Fitzgerald says that he does not expect to file any further charges. If information comes to light or if new information comes forward that warrants further investigation, we will do that. The case is now inactive. We are going back to our day jobs.

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/06/fitzgerald-post-trial-press-conference/

If new information came forward, Fitzgerald would not have to strike a new Federal Grand Jury because he would be using, as he did before, a regular Federal Grand Jury and there are always Federal Grand Juries sitting and available and Fitzgerald would simply have to go to them.

There are two types of Federal Grand Juries:

Grand jury's term
Federal grand juries are of two types--regular and special. Regular grand juries sit for a basic term of 18 months, but that term can be extended up to another 6 months, which means their total possible term is 24 months. Special grand juries sit for 18 months, but their term can be extended for up to another 18 months; a court can extend a special grand jury's term for 6 months, and can enter up to three such extensions, totaling 18 months.

How often a grand jury meets
Federal grand juries meet regularly, but the frequency of their meetings varies from one federal judicial district to another. Several grand juries may be meeting at the same time in large urban areas, while grand juries convened in less populous districts may only meet once a week or once a month. Generally, federal grand juries tend to meet when prosecutors need them to consider proposed indictments or to investigate possible criminal activity.

http://campus.udayton.edu/~grandjur/fedj/fedj.htm

[KharmaTrain]

10. Is That The Grand Jury From A Year Ago???

Maybe it's longer than that...I recall Fitz empanelling an new jury to keep available for future indictments. I'm curious if this is the same panel and if they still can be called? It'd be a sweet surprise to learn Fitz has quietly been meeting with them to refresh and update the case. :bounce:

[Spazito]

12. A Regular Grand Jury can sit for 18 months and can be extended

by a further 6 months then their term has expired, it cannot be extended further. Regular Grand Juries hear more than one case as opposed to a Special Grand Jury which is struck to hear only one case. Fitzgerald used and would use a Regular Grand Jury. There is more than one Regular Grand Jury sitting at any one time so if one Grand Jury's term has expired, a prosecutor simply goes to another sitting Grand Jury, brings them up to speed on his case and goes from there.

Each Regular Grand Jury has an 18 month term, sometimes extended by 6 months, there are more than one Regular Grand Juries sitting at any one time and they don't all have the same "start" date so if one Grand Jury's term has expired there is another one that may be only half-way through it's term that Fitzgerald, if new information came forward, could use.

We tend to think of Grand Juries as the same as regular Juries who hear only one case and, after deciding, are let go. Regular Grand Juries don't work that way, they hear multiple cases over their 18 month term.

I hope this helps, it can be quite confusing and, imo, the media does NOT help to clarify at all.

[KharmaTrain]

13. Thank You

I served on a Federal Jury...and know the difference between Grand Juries and Trial Juries. Also a Special GJ like the one that indicted Scooter and the "regular" GJ that is the "usual" way criminal indictments move along. Which brings to mind another question...and that is Fitz ability to present info to the "regular" grand jury or would that be the handled by another Prosecutor?

Thank you for clearing up a lot of the grey edges.

:toast:

[Spazito]

14. If the info relates to his mandate, that is within the framework

as defined in Comey's Feb 6, 2004 letter:

"all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity" is plenary and includes the authority to investigate and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, your investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted; and to pursue administrative remedies and civil sanctions (such as civil contempt) that are within the Attorney General's authority to impose or pursue.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/ag_letter_feburary_06_2004.pdf

Fitzgerald or one of the other prosecutors working on this case would present any new info to the Grand Jury. The case regarding the "unauthorized disclose of a CIA employee's identity" is still Fitzgerald's case and, while currently "inactive" it would be re-activated by Fitzgerald if new info were to come forward.

[KharmaTrain]

17. Underlying Alleged Unauthorized Disclosure!!

That sure looks like an open door to revisit to me.

How ironic as all the right wing appologist are bitching about the "underlying crime". How delightful would it be to have Rove and cheney indicted on that very "underlying charge".

:hi:

[Spazito]

15. The Grand Jury that delivered a "true bill" of indictment wasn't

a Special Federal Grand Jury, it was a Regular Federal Grand Jury. There was never a Special Federal Grand Jury struck to hear the Plame case.

[Garbo 2004]

19. Fitzgerald hasn't used special Fed grand juries. He's used regular grand juries throughout. n/t

[JDPriestly]

36. Perhaps that is because the proper vehicle for investigating

Cheney's role is impeachment.

[H2O Man]

37. Indeed,

it is.

[Missy Vixen]

29. His exact quote: "Inactive"

However, I'm sure the whole thing could be swiftly revisited if certain people were to come forward with the information they've been stonewalling on.

Just sayin'.
Julie

[Hamlette]

11. he's the man I want to have a beer with

I'd get him drunk and take advantage of him.

Just for the information.

Honest.

[Joe Chi Minh]

16. I'm still hoping against hope that one day, we might see Richard Ben Veniste

interrogating the suspects again. Maybe Armitage again.

The way BV got under his skin when interrogating him during during the course of the 9/11 Commission I could watch again and again, it was so funny seeing Armitage's frustration, as his face changed from Mr Nice Guy to a mask of rage. Unfortunately, I'm not an expert at retrieving clips from the C-Span archives.

[bleever]

18. Video of Ben Veniste questioning Armitage here:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing8/2004032404_high.asx

Ben Veniste's portions start at 5:55, and at 58:55.

Back to watching; thanks for the tip.

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. Oh, thanks a milllion. I can't thank you enough!

[Joe Chi Minh]

23. I meant to post that ages ago, bleever, but got carried away with

those portions of Ben Veniste's interrogation of Armitage.

As I watched it now, it seems to me that, by and large, I'd pretty grossly misread Armitage's performance. He seemingly knew full well what to expect from BV and anticipated it with a certain 'gallows-like humour', and was very good at thinking on his feet - as you would expect. In the context, BV's quips about RA's 13th Amendment rights was very funny,

In fact, it was the little nuances that made it all the more humorous. Armitage evidently wanted to appear to have some control over the proceedings, so would sometimes profer additional 'information', and you could see BV unsuccessfully trying to suppress a smile as he looked down at his papers on one occasion - as if he'd been half-expecting it.

I'm terrible at 'thinking on my feet', but on reflection, when RA had the gall to proudly pronounce that he was there not as Rice's replacement (BV's 'doppelganger'), but because of his many years of service of his country in that line, it would have been good, imo, if BV had retorted, that with due respect, a long and distinguished career in the field was not the reason why Ms Rice was requested to appear; but, rather, to answer much more specific questions in the light of her own 'hands-on', if brief, personal experience of the matters, in her specific office.

It was amazing how quickly BV forestalled and turned around RA's jocose plea that BV was a lawyer, while he was just a 'simple navy man', interjecting that he thought it was the White House that had excessively 'lawyered up'.

One other thing that had me in stitches was that the one time RA came across as feeling discomfited and fearful at what BV might be leading up to, was when the latter loudly exclaimed, 'Well, you know I agree with you!" When RA hears BV say those words, his face, particularly his eyes, are a study!

[bleever]

33. I had the same impression of Armitage being a skilled operative

in terms of knowing what thrusts to parry with jocular bonhomie and faux self-deprecation, and of Ben Veniste as knowing that he knew, and quite skillfully counter-thrusting.

Armitage's testimony at times sounded like Gonzales', i.e., "I don't remember a specific conversation about that within that time frame", and his ability to sandbag the follow-up questions.

Now I'm curious to reexamine the Rumsfeld testimony.

:thumbsup:

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. That'll be depressing, I think!

As regards my suggestion of a possible retort on the part of Ben Veniste, to Armitage's claim of being sufficiently qualified to substitute for Rice, being his long years in the business, it occurred to me that BV was all too aware that RA was merely Bushco's Patsy and the whole commission was a white-wash, in which a REALLY serious questioning of Armitage would actually have been anomalous; it was really the standing joke BV so hilariously rejoiced in with his own colleagues on the commission, as well as with RA.

That amazingly swift and emphatic change of BV's tone, when the serious question of the WH lawyering up, after RA had tried to come the 'simple old salt', facing a brilliant high-power lawyer, betrayed the deliberate, essentially perfunctory questioning of Armitage up to that point.

RA's interrogation called for a light touch, in keeping with the meretricious goals the findings would be confined to. One day, doubtless, it would all come out, but it was never going to be by courtesy of that particular 9/11 Commission.

[DemReadingDU]

20. Additional discussion in this thread

I posted info from Jeralyn at TalkLeft yesterday...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1213077

[WinkyDink]

21. Let's face it: The Dick is AT THE VERY LEAST a TRAITOR for revealing VP's name; a THIEF for looting

via BAE and Halliburton; and, for me, a MURDERER.

[cui bono]

35. He killed you?

.....

[bbgrunt]

24. k n r

[Grandrose]

25. K & R

Fascinating stuff!:think: :kick:

[TacticalPeek]

26. K & R

emptywheel has the lowdown.

[bonito]

27. K & R

[Missy Vixen]

28. And the plot thickens

It's going to get mighty hot this summer, isn't it?

Julie
still president for life of the PFEB

[Subdivisions]

30. Tatel-tale! n/t

[bleever]

34. Okay, you get props for that pun.

Judge Tatel's name is going to become more widely known this summer.

[AnnieBW]

32. Quick, get some quotes about perjury

From when the Clenis was being impeached, and the Repugs were all gung-ho about getting him for perjury.

[The Count]

38. "I think he should be impeached because he lied" W

[The Count]

40. So, Rove gets off by ratting on Dick while Dick is made bulletproof somehow?

Now that's some grand weaseling tactic from those criminals...