Howard Dean heckled by single payer advocates at Portland book signing.

[madfloridian]

Run time: 06:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFmudepfL4E   Posted on YouTube: July 25, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: July 25, 2009 By DU Member: madfloridian Views on DU: 3779

 
From a blog called Talk with Tim

This is a write-up of Howard Dean's book signing appearance at Powells Books in Portland, Oregon.

Dean was going to begin by signing books but since some people had taken their lunch break to attend he switched gears and launched into a clear and passionate speech about the problems we face and how we can fix them. Just moments into his speech, a heckler starts harassing him about single-payer healthcare. The heckler was roundly shushed by the audience and Gov. Dean asked him to please respect other people’s time and when it comes to Q&A he will be called on to speak. However, the guy wanted to be a pain and he was eventually asked to leave by Powell’s employees. Another heckler attempted the same thing shortly after and was again shushed by the crowd and asked to leave by employees. After that it went without a problem and was very informative.

Here is more from the blogger about points from Dean's speech.

We offer efficient, government run healthcare already for veterans and the eldery. We should expand this to everyone.

Medicare only costs 4% of every dollar to administer. The best private insurance can do is 20%. Huge savings potential.

Primary care physicians in the British healthcare system typically make more money than primary care physicians in America.

Prevent health problems instead of overpaying for expensive treatment in the case of preventable diseases.

President Obama’s plan will offer a huge benefit to small business by relieving them of the expense of providing health care. With a public option.

Some single payer advocates are asking congressional Democrats to abstain from voting on the public option.

From PDA blog:

PDA blog

This worries me because we really are not getting a clear picture of the public plan yet. I hate to see them saying not to vote for it when we are not really sure of the final product.

Himmelstein says that the Obama plan would mandate that people buy insurance from competing private plans – and one denuded public plan.

The private health insurance companies would cherry pick the young healthy patients, while the sick older patients would opt into the public plan – making the public plan unsustainable.

Himmelstein says the upcoming Congressional vote on the Obama health care reform has little significance because it does not represent fundamental reform.

“It’s like giving aspirin to a patient who has cancer,” Himmelstein said. “Instead of asking – what can we do to treat your cancer?”

Himmelstein says that when the time comes to vote on the Obama health plan, members of Congress should abstain.

We are definitely not going to get single payer, but there is a chance we could get a decent public option.

[Kid Dynamite]

1. It is easy to defame Himmelstein

by accusing him of defaming Dean. It is somewhat harder to refute his arguments regarding the NEED for a single payer system or the unacceptability of all of the current proposals.

You certainly can NOT do so by pretending to be a single payer supporter but devoting all of your efforts to pushing a "decent" public option.

Decent indeed..

Why not simply state: I am for watered down reform that is sure to fail

[madfloridian]

2. I support single payer. I don't oppose public option, though.

Himmelstein advises congress not to vote on the public option.

I find that kind of sad.

[Kid Dynamite]

9. For all intents and purposes they are mutually exclusive

you are devoting your efforts to promoting public option while insisting that single payer is unviable (for whatever reason)

That is not an even-handed approach, it is entirely one-sided

[madfloridian]

11. Relax, DU is fast becoming single payer central. Don't worry.

No one has my back. I don't have groups behind me.

[madfloridian]

3. I resent your saying I "defame" anyone.

:shrug:

[Kid Dynamite]

8. I didn't say that you did

my post was worded very carefully

[madfloridian]

10. Oh, the message of your post was clear.

The message of the single payer advocates is clear....don't vote for the public option.

Since we don't yet know the form of it, that is a little bit overblown.

I am sorry these groups are finding satisfaction in targeting good Democrats over something we could work together on.

[George II]

49. This happens all the time..

...a quote or incident is latched onto and posted here with an outlandish interpretation or accusation, then the defensiveness begins when painted into a corner. Generally that is accompanied with indignation about being "insulted" or "defamed", even though it didn't happen.

Except for when it is really outlandish I've stopped responding to this person's OPs or other posts. It's just not worth the trouble or the frustration with the abject refusal to face the reality of her posts or the issue under discussion.

[Kurovski]

4. Dean's absence on the cable NEWS channels has been conspicuous,

considering how this is Dr. Dean's thing.

Of course, one may note the prevalence of ad time traditionally purchased on cable news by insurance and drug companies as a mere coincidence when regarding the timbre of the coverage regarding healthcare.

But that would be silly.



Here is part of an interview I've been spreading around my neighborhood:


ESQ: You say that average premiums would be 23 percent lower in the public plan. Could you explain how they can achieve that level of efficiency without subsidizing it?

HD: I'm going to use Medicare as an example because it is a public plan. About 4 percent of every dollar that goes into Medicare is spent on administration. In the private sector, that number is between 12 percent and 50 percent. That's because of return on equity, very high CEO salaries, advertising, and general administration. But you don't have return on equity in a public plan, and there doesn't have to be advertising, and the people who run it aren't going to be making $20 million a year. They are probably making less than $200,000 a year. And that's before you get to cost controls.

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/howard-dean-interview-health-care-070709#ixzz0MIUSqEOT





http://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/howard-dean-interview-health-care-070709

[madfloridian]

5. I don't think he's been on MSM since he said the Senate was self-destructing.

That was part of the Esquire interview you posted. July 7 I think. He has been on CNBC surrounded by squawking right-wingers, but I have not seen him on MSNBC in several weeks. He's under contract to CNBC so he needs permission to appear on CNN.

Haven't seen him on in a long while.

[PSPS]

6. "one denuded public plan"

Himmelstein says that the Obama plan would mandate that people buy insurance from competing private plans – and one denuded public plan.

This is the big problem with U-bama's trademark milquetoast approach to everything. We'll end up with the exact opposite of what all insurance needs to operate properly: Pooled risk.

Any scheme that mandates people buy private health insurance or, if they can't afford it or don't "qualify" because they might make a claim that can't be denied, they'll go to the "public option" is, indeed, doomed to fail. The private insurance racket will continue its criminal practices fully funded by threat of of a federal "fine" and the public option will fail because the claims will far exceed its funding.

The largest risk pool is the entire population and with that comes the most savings and most care for the dollar. Any plan that allows the dilution of the risk pool can't be called "insurance." Instead, its only function is as an "investment vehicle."

[madfloridian]

7. He is really on the attack against Dean and against Obama's plan.

The details of which are not really known yet.

I wonder how many of the uninsured are willing to compromise a little?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpartanDem]

13. You're right it's better to do nothing

than accept something imperfect that would improve lives of millions. I get the sense you and other would more happy seeing a single proposal fail so you could pat yourselves on your back for not compromising.

[Mithreal]

14. Irritate allies much? Public option is the best thing those without,

can hope for from this President and Congress.

Compromise is all Obama offers. So he must be Scab-in-Chief, right?

The op writer has more integrity than most here.

I appreciate your sentiment but not your slander.

[madfloridian]

15. Thanks...

for getting my back. I am proud of Howard Dean for not letting it get him down. I see no reason for the divide. We all want the best we can get.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

16. Here is the Part 2 video from Portland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9lsDMsRwY

Meet the guy who is being made a scapegoat by some single payer groups.

What a shame.

[madfloridian]

17. A pretty fair assessment with more quotes from Horse's Ass blog.

There is an audio clip at this blog.

Is the public option a “slippery slope” to single-payer?

As I’ve argued before, the public option is a slippery slope to single-payer, if implemented and executed correctly. Now some might characterize this admission as cynical and dishonest, but good policy done right is inherently a slippery slope toward better policy. As it should be. And it’s a slope we slide down only with the approval of a majority of voters.

Dean's answer:

This will be the change that the American people want at the pace that they want it. So the opponents have no right to make that argument. The Republican ability to make that argument assumes that they know better than the American people, that they’re so smart that the American people have no right to make up their own mind.

That’s what this bill is about. This bill is not about whether to have a single-payer or a public option or a private system; this bill is about whether the American people get to choose for themselves, or whether congressmen take it upon themselves to override the will of the American people and do something different. It’s a straight up vote between whether you’re in favor of the health insurance industry, or whether you’re in favor of your constituency. Everybody’s going to have to make that vote, and we’ll be watching.

And more comments from the blogger:

The same could be said to the uncompromising advocates of a single-payer system.

I may not live to see the bottom, but I still believe that the public option will ultimately set us down that slippery slope to single-payer, and my sense is that many of its proponents believe the same, whether for pragmatic reasons, they’re willing to publicly say so or not. If given the choice, many Americans will flock to the public option, and if private insurers simply aren’t able to compete, I’m alright with that. It is ironic, after all, that those who insist there is no fundamental right to basic health care, also tend to be those who insist that there is a fundamental right to selling private health insurance. Of course, there isn’t. And if the single-payer advocates can be as patient as they are passionate, I’m confident the American people will ultimately prove them right.

This appears to be from Seattle.

[tooeyeten]

18. anything cutting into the profits of these thieves

is worth it, some competition for a change. How about some anti-trust investigations?

[madfloridian]

19. Yay, another blogger weighs in on the attacks on Dean on this issue.

Howard Dean gets abused by the very people he supports

By all accounts, Howard Dean is a friend to the single-payer healthcare advocates. He fervently acknowledges that the American healthcare system is an insurance industry, health-for-profit nightmare that needs to be overhauled. He also realizes, most likely from vivid memories of the debacle that was Hillary Clinton's attempt at healthcare reform, that the change we most desperately need must come in stages. That American healthcare would and could never transform from being owned by the insurance industry to a government-funded system in one fell swoop.

Single-payer people, listen up: work on getting the “public option” passed in Obama's healthcare plan, watch is flourish, say, “I told you so,” then roll up your sleeves and get dirty bringing the country a single-payer healthcare system.

Remember, change must come at a speed that the majority of American citizens can handle.

...."Did they ever stop to think that Mr. Dean isn't the enemy here? No, probably not. Because even people who are passionate about a valid and just cause can lose sight of the proper way to bring about their vision. How can they expect to advance their agenda by antagonizing a person who is actually in a position to help?

Now is the time to stay focused. Heckling Howard Dean, of all people, is not constructive. It's like telling your dad he's the worst driver you've ever seen and then asking to borrow the car.

[earth mom]

20. It sucks to see that Dean has given in and stopped fighting for what's right = single payer.

:argh:

[madfloridian]

21. It is sad to see 3 progressive groups using him as target practice

when this country is in serious danger. Progressive Democrats of America (no surprise there)...Single Payer Action has been protesting and heckling him....PNHP has called him a liar.

That is not wise.

[earth mom]

23. Dean & Obama are proving to be sell outs. That should be exposed.

Politicians need to stop playing politics with peoples lives!

Party over people is bullshit!

[rhett o rick]

24. Some say that public option is a step in the right direction. Some believe that is horseshit.

When public option fails, it is guaranteed to fail, the repukes will say, "told you so". Then it will be harder than ever to get single payer.

[madfloridian]

25. Then continue to attack the public option. See what we end up with.

I have supported either. I am not sure when the single payer activists decided it was their way or the highway....but good luck on that.

[rhett o rick]

36. I am disappointed in you. I have never attacked the public option. I support it over nothing.

Does it just make you feel better to attack everyone that doesn't exactly say what you want to hear?

I merely pointed out the public option isn't the solution. It may be all we get, but those that are thinking it is a stepping stone to single payer need to know that should the public option have problems, and I think it will, it will be harder to convince the public to go with single payer.

I am not sure what your objective is but your method of persuasion is lacking.

[madfloridian]

37. I see the handwriting on the wall.

I see our party splitting with one group calling congress to vote for health care with certain options...and the other groups calling and saying don't vote if it is not single payer.

I support both types of insurance.

We are self-destructing.

[rhett o rick]

39. I do also, but not going to give up.

For our party to split it would first have to be whole. The Democratic Party has never been whole like the republican party. This split is no different than the Sen Clinton for president people that were so passionate that some thought it would "split the party". I think we will end up with a public option. The republicans probably want a public option. Then their insurance company sponsors will dump the high risk subscribers into the public optional plan. This will essentially kill health care reform. Doesn't mean I won't support it as better than nothing. Although I am not convinced.

With out getting to slobbery, the writing on the wall is that America is screwed. I see no possible way to get the big money influence out of government. Until that happens, we are totally screwed. The President will make some in-roads but the big money will continue to hammer away.

[madfloridian]

22. And it is pretty bad when DU allows constant attacks on the public option

and on Dean and Obama.

I am not sure they understand that the forums here have been co-opted by about 3 groups.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

27. People like me? Please clarify. What am I like?

?

[earth mom]

28. You tell me. What side are you on? Do you believe party trumps people?

Because it sounds like you do.

Anyone who defends the status quo and the soulless vampire bastards making money off of human pain is not on the side I'm on.

[madfloridian]

29. Don't know how to answer that.

I don't know how to answer anyone who thinks I am that way.

[earth mom]

31. What does your conscience say? People or Profits? Which is it?

If you are defending what Obama & Congress are doing in regard to health care, the banksters and the environment, you are choosing profit.

The truth hurts, but it is what it is.

[madfloridian]

33. I am a really big sell-out on health care, banks, environment, women's rights.

I sell out every day. I have no conscience.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[madfloridian]

30. Amazed to see how many agree its okay to heckle a man

who was party chairman just because he advocates a different health plan..though he doesn't disagree with them.

It just seems normal to accept that now.

[earth mom]

32. People supported Dean when he was doing the right thing.

I did until I realized what he side he is on now.

Frankly, I'm shocked and disappointed by him.

[madfloridian]

34. I am disappointed by progressive groups who tell congress not to vote for the public option

when there are so many desperate people.

I am very upset that Dean's words are being portrayed by PDA, Single Payer Action, and PNHP as being lies..

It does not speak well for progress at all.

SO SO sorry you hold such a low opinion of me, but I am sadder yet you condemn for being sell-out.

I consider that a personal attack.

[earth mom]

35. People are so desperate that they need to sell their very souls? No thanks!

You can make all the excuses you want, but the fact is that the current plan is going to be a windfall to the insurance industry, who are already out of control blood sucking vampires!

As for attacks, you are already being attacked by the powers that be.

I haven't attacked you.

All I have done is tell you unpleasant truths you refuse to hear.

[madfloridian]

38. More from the Seattle heckling....

It is apparently happening everywhere he goes.

Heckled in Seattle

The blogger:

It was hot last night at Seattle’s Town Hall, both literally and figuratively. Outside, advocates of a single-payer healthcare system were chanting and leafleting. Inside, as Gov. Howard Dean spoke about healthcare reform, the crowd was only slightly less boisterous.

Some from the blogger of Dean's words. I wonder why he is being heckled so badly. He really supports single payer, is just realizing the limitations.

As Gov. Dean repeated throughout the Q&A, he’d personally prefer a single-payer system, as it’s the only reform that can guarantee universal coverage while quickly providing the level of savings needed to get our healthcare costs under control. But as he also repeated, polling consistently shows that the general public just isn’t there yet, let alone the laggards in Congress, so while single-payer shouldn’t necessarily be taken off the table, it would be unrealistic to expect it to move any further… at this point in time.

And here’s where that confrontation between idealism and pragmatism really comes into play. Public option opponents on the left dismiss the proposal as mere half-measures, while public option opponents on the right attack it as a slippery slope to single-payer. And they’re both right. The question is, will the lack of enthusiasm for the public option from idealists on the left ultimately play into the hands of the pragmatists on the right in their efforts to scuttle any substantive reforms at all?

We might be biting off our noses to spite our faces.

[nightrain]

40. sad to say, but our Dr Dean isn't all that pure in the health care issues--see this recent link--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6129724

Much as I have totally admired the guy in the past, this recent development on generics is disturbing. I speak as a fellow healthcare practitioner and as a user of healthcare services, and as a child of a mother who has gotten caught for thousands in the doughnut hole more than once.

madfloridian, please try to not take these critiques (on Dean and of "public option") so personally... (peace offering)

We can do sooo much better than what we're being sold and asked to pay for. Looking forward to seeing what's in any bill.

[madfloridian]

41. They are asking congress NOT to vote unless single payer.

That will hurt a lot of people.

I did not mention generics at all, and I am concerned about health care getting passed.

It is ridiculous to heckle people who are mostly on our side.

[nightrain]

42. the "heckling" goes both ways. I have been the recipient of scathing attcks on DU

and so have others. That hurts. I would like to see it stopped. I know you're concerned about health care getting passed. And listen to the language lately--"health insurance reform".

I know you didn't mention generics, but people need to know that Dean's not all perfect in this either. Sunlight as disinfectant.

[madfloridian]

43. So "perfect" is the new demand?

I would like to see DU stop being used to oppose the public option. It is not funny, and advocacy is not a toy to be played with out of spite toward one person.

I think it is dangerous to not even consider a public option at this point in time.

But that is what is going on here at DU. They are calling for congress NOT to vote on a public option.

I think that is carrying things too far.

I am far from being perfect, and thank God that never used to matter here.

But here come the single payer perfectionists, and perfect is required.

I have been attacked without mercy on this issue. It would easier to shut up.

We are splitting along the lines of "perfect" and "not perfect."

Put me in the second column.

[nightrain]

44. Are you aware that your "perfect" is that critiques stop? And I mean that in the most gentle,

and least confrontational way possible over the tubes.

[madfloridian]

45. I am not the one demanding that congress not vote unless single payer.

I am amazed in this thread that there is an unending line of people to step in to put me down for saying we are killing ourselves on this issue.

I am not demanding perfection, far from it.

I am concerned that your "perfect" will kill millions and lose us congress.

[nightrain]

47. okay. take care. nt

[nightrain]

52. In re-reading this, I notice that you used 'your "perfect"'. Please point to where I advocated not

voting for a decent public option if we get one.

I don't think I have ever said that. I don't appreciate you mis-representing me, or my words.

I hear your passion, but please don't mis-represent me for any purpose.

[madfloridian]

53. This

is what got to me. None of ever though anyone was perfect. To criticize a centrist for taking centrist views in some area is ok....but at least let him have book signings without being harassed everywhere he goes.

You said:

"but people need to know that Dean's not all perfect in this either. Sunlight as disinfectant."

That sounds like you think he is trying to hide stuff, which he is not. Of course he not perfect. None of us is.

The use of the word is indicative of what many single payers are seeking....perfection. They want insurance companies gone and out of the picture. That is not going to happen.

We all want the best deal we can get. Calling the former chairman a liar as PNHP has done, attacking his book signings and protesting outside is just over the line.

[nightrain]

54. I'm not PNHP. Please try not to mis-attribute my words or my intent. To my knowledge,

Dean's participation in the lengthening of the delay of generics is not widely known, and that's what I was referencing. If you have a question or concern, consider asking a question, rather than making assumptions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6129724

Like, shining a light on details not so well-known.

Single payer advocates are not of a single cloth. Please take your issue up with PNHP if that's who you think is the problem, rather than this wholesale attack on single payer advocates over and over and over.

[madfloridian]

55. I will stop when they stop attacking the public option in post after post.

That generic issue has little to do with his efforts at health care reform.

This is not the time for groups to be calling congress telling them to abstain from voting.

Dean has a lot of views I don't necessarily agree with, and I say so.

But there is no excuse for DU being the place to bash the only viable option we have.

Is it really good in present form? Probably not.

Could we get better? Probably.

Will we get single payer? No.

Turning this thread into an issue over Dean's views on biotech issues is not fair and not what he was being hassled about.

I don't like hassles, but others are not speaking up on this topic out of fear of attacks. This thread is a very good example.

[nightrain]

56. I hear your passion and I think it's very hurtful how you are making it personal.

Take it up with PNHP directly.

Hmmm... I think the generic drug issue and Dean's participation in it is quite germane to health care reform, and just like we want to know who is doing what lobbying, we need to know it about Dems too.

To my knowledge, I have not attacked you or anyone else. If you have perceived me as attacking you, I apologize.

I think DU is a great place to have this conversation/debate/heated discussion/sharing of information about health care. What sticks in my craw are the personal attacks. I am asking you directly to stop them and to be much more precise about your attributions.

This sub-thread is important. It's important for me to share my feelings with you, and I listen to your feedback.

[madfloridian]

57. DU is a place for a conversation.

It is not supposed to be used as a place to condemn the only possible option we have right now in getting health care.

There are threads that present facts about both, but there are threads that start out condemning the public option, calling the former chairman a liar, condemning every view of his to keep from getting any health care reform.

I think it is very germane also to have doctors and groups like PDA that call themselves progressive choosing only one way to do things in a time of crisis.

This has become haven for those who will accept nothing and encourage congress to do nothing.

I will be frank. Dean was honest with friends that he was going to earn some money. After he was unceremoniously dumped by party leadership out of the national forum....I don't blame him.

If he keeps his other views out of public option in health care....that is just fine with me. I hope he earns a bundle.

This video needed to be seen so I posted it.

I have insurance, so does hubby. Why the heck do I bother when this place has become a shouting match determined to crash any chance we had this year.

I'm done. I am glad I posted it. Most people are too afraid of being attacked to defend anyone anymore.

[nightrain]

59. Thanks for replying. I think people here are going to have a multitude of

opinions, and that's okay with me. Passion and vehement views are okay with me. Diversity of views is okay with me. Ideas are scrutinized, leaders are scrutinized. Ad hominem is not okay with me.

I hope DU future postings stay on topic, and rarely are personal.

[madfloridian]

46. Oh, if I were fearful of criticism, would I speak out so much and feel

so strongly about issues?

I think the board is being used to stop health care reform now.

[debbierlus]

48. A truly strong public option & the ability for states to create their own single payer systems

This would be my criteria to support the legislation.

Kucinich has a amendment in the house bill that supports the second. We shall see if the Senate allows it to stand or it is stripped from their version.

The public option prospects look dim at the current time. As currently put forth, it will severely restrict the number of people eligible to enroll.

[madfloridian]

50. They are heckling a guy who strongly believes states could do single payer.

I don't think they have really paid attention things he has said.

AMY GOODMAN: Governor Dean, we let people know that you were going to be on our show today, and we have been getting calls and questions, emails, tweets, everything from all over the country nonstop for the last twenty-four hours, and we hardly have time for any. But this is one from David Swanson. He asked, do support Representative Kucinich’s amendment to allow states to create single-payer healthcare, if they so choose?


HOWARD DEAN: Sure, absolutely. I’ve always believed that states ought to be able to try different things, and the states—our state was the first state, I think, to have universal healthcare for kids, 99 percent eligible. Massachusetts—actually, Hawaii technically was the first state to do universal healthcare in its entirety, because they were—for technical reasons, it had to do with the Employment Retirement Insurance Security Act . Massachusetts, most recently, has done some groundbreaking things. I absolutely believe that if the people of a state want to try something different, that they ought to be able to try, within the federal framework. And that’s certainly within the federal framework."

Dean on single payer for states

I would be terrified if the idiots who control Florida tried it, that would be scary. I would worry about TX and a few other states.

But the heckling of someone who is on their side, and the attacks here on those of us support both positions are hurting all of us.

[PatrynXX]

51. go Powells

which I could make it to that massive bookstore. Bought stuff online from them. Probably go in. never come out :P

Just a couple of Hecklers. oh well. Not many hecklers. Now for Bush... hecklers everywhere and how many can get to Ms Rice that close with a red hand? not that I'm a big Code Pink fan. They seemed to be glad Robert Macnamera (sp) was dead. I still considered him one of the few good guys. People who admit their mistakes (like Obama) are humans compared to those who don't. I'll miss him. He was great in Fog of War and there's probably enough material there for another one.

[defendandprotect]

58. Late K&R . . .We already have a plan set to go MEDICARE FOR ALL ....

all we have to do is remove the age restriction --

Medicare and VA can co-exist --

However, we have to stop trying to suggest that we're re-inventing the wheel

here -- we're ready to go!

Every other nation has done it, but we can't?

Too many details -- except other nations have already dealt with them -- !!!

Yes -- Canada covers abortion as a medical procedure.