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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 08:51 PM
Original message
Vietnam Veterans Against John "Songbird" McCain
 
Run time: 07:46
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MUY9S6iCvk
 
Posted on YouTube: August 18, 2008
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: August 18, 2008
By DU Member: Celebration
Views on DU: 10916
 
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. McCain "cooperating with the enemy" in POW camp? Yikes!
NO wonder he blocked the release of documents!

I mean, people in that situation may have to do what it takes to survive, but it sure makes him suspect in the current situation of being someone who can actually take the heat.

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Exactly
Everything stayed classified because to do otherwise would have exposed him.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. And this has been know since 1992, but he's still portrayed as a "hero"
What a bunch of crap. You can look at that milktoast face and see a man who never was a hero and just doesn't understand what it's like to live without privilage even in a POW camp.

Bozo doesn't pay taxes for years on a house that he doesn't live in while most people struggle just to keep one roof over their head and food on the table. And the rethugs have the nerve to call Obama an elitist because he thinks before he speaks.

Unreal.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Meanwhile, he's trying to act like pRes, threatening Russia and would start a war on Iran if hecould
How many of those 8-10 homes that he owns are equipped with a state-of-the-art Nuclear Bomb shelter?

Or do you suppose he and Cindy just plan on skipping the country when the shit he so dearly desires, "DESTROY Evil!", comes down on our heads?
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. He's so old, he probably thinks he'll be dead before the sh** hits the fan.
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. You nailed it
they

{{call Obama an elitist because he thinks before he speaks.}}

How true. This bunch has made willful stupidity a virtue. I'm stuck living in the south, and although I try to avoid stereotypes of any sort some do have a seed of validity. And some of the locals are willfully stupid and proud of it. I remember the ex going into a supermarket a few years back and asking for a particular kind of cheese. That the clerk had never heard of it is nothing to fault him for, but the fact that he seemed PROUD not to have heard of it was truly striking.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. Stuck in Maine
Stuck in the South? You could leave if you wanted to... or are you in jail? an indentured servant? Anyway...

I wasn't stuck in Maine, but I got tired of hearing up there about how McCain was a war hero and how he wasn't gonna take away their hunting guns, like Obama. And isn't the nearly empty state of Maine "blue"???

You people have GOT to get out of this "It's the South's fault" mentality. Look at the West why don't you, for a change? Or better yet, stop regionalizing the GOP blight and know IT IS EVERYWHERE!
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Ha Ha....
"You people have GOT to get out of this "It's the South's fault" mentality."

We're used to it, although most of the thousands who move here for work or retirement are downright freindly, and would probably help out with the bus ticket for "stuck in the south".
Ironic that the particular post would follow a prior comment on Obama being accused of elitism because he "thinks before he speaks". Thanks.
quickesst
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. It is not 'elitist' to cite the anti-intellectualism that has come
to characterize much of the modern GOP/conservative movement. It may be an oddball example, but taking pride in not knowing about gourmet food is exactly the same sort of mindset that denounces/fears "liberals" as latte- or espresso-drinkers. Just recently a court made some area schools remove anti-evolution stickers from their biology textbooks. Does this sort of thing happen elsewhere? Hell yeah. But I know that the amount of this sort of shit that I've had to deal with has increased tenfold since I moved south.
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Didn't say anything about it being the South's fault
But there ARE certain attitudes and outlooks that seem to have found a special home here. I've lived elsewhere, and I know they exist elsewhere, but I also know that I have not encountered this "happy to be stupid" mindset where I grew up in the northeast.

You bring up the gun thing. I've been wondering recently how many of the RW'ers who spout off about how Obama is going to ban the Bible and Hillary is going to mandate gay marriage (etc., etc., war on Christmas, etc.) actually believe the shit they're saying, and how many just have a blind hatred of anybody who is Hillary Clinton or who is not a right wing Evangelical and thus cite any bullshit factoid they come across in an attempt to legitimize it.

And 'no,' I'm not in jail or an indentured servant, but if I want to be with my daughter--and I do--this is where I've got to be.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. But there ARE certain attitudes and outlooks that seem to have found a special home here.
Don't think I was singling you out....but you're "trapped in the South" was kinda funny. Still, I think you were actually very reasonable.

As for a special home, it IS true the South has a race problem. They have for centuries now. In Maine, I didn't see any prejudice against blacks....because I DIDN'T SEE ANY BLACKS!
Every region has a history and a prejudice. The South's just seems special because of it's history. But it's all really the same. Bush and his ilk are the triumph of anti-intellectualism. This is what you get when just knowing something is considered elitist.
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. There is a line in James Joyce's Ulysses to the effect of
"Ireland is the only nation that never persecuted the Jews...because it didn't let them in in the first place." Even though the story's protagonist is, in fact, a Jew.

Prejudice in the south is an odd thing. On the one hand, I think Southerners are more accustomed than many Northerners to live, or at least operate on a daily basis, in close proximity to African Americans. My admittedly amateur impression has been that Southerners don't see Blacks as outsiders to the extent that many Northerners do. I certainly don't mean to deny Jim Crow and lynchings and all of that. The old-school southern man may have been horrified at the idea of "mixing" and miscegination... But I think that Southerners on the whole were more used to sharing the streets, etc., with Blacks (so long as they "knew their place"), if only because the African-American presence in Northern cities became sizable only in relatively recent history. I remember living near Harrisburg PA in the 1970s, and when the first Black families moved into our town it was a major topic of conversation, while a comparable community in the South had probably had a Black community for two- or three-hundred years. I am in Athens GA, a funky lefty oasis in the middle of Bush Country. But even in more conservative settings (I worked in a hardware store for several years and overheard my share of RW diatribes) it seemed that most folks don't think twice about having Black neighbors, about their kids having Black classmates and Black teammates, about using the same stores, theaters, etc., as African-Americans. No one seems to have any overt interest in returning to the days of Jim Crow. BUT...fifty years on it still pisses them off something fierce that the gummint came in and made their granddaddies shut down the colored water fountains. They don't want to go back but it riles their notion of sovereignty that that they COULDN'T go back if they changed their minds.

Sorry for rambling....
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. And he has the absolute GALL to question Obama's patriotism?
It's clear now that McCain was an enemy collaborator. Instead of the White House he belongs in the Big House!
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Lifetimedem Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
74. If this is false
He needs to request their declassification now.. failure to do so says it all
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. WOW this says it all
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 09:32 PM by CitizenPatriot
this is so sad -- McCain protected his possible future career while blocking families from finding info re MIA POWs by using his political might to keep documents classified which would have hurt his career. Documents which would have helped families find their loved ones.

christian? I don't think so.

also, he's accusing Obama of being treasonous in terms of not wanting this country to win the war, but who is the traitor? We know who the traitor is. I believed every person on this video. They had the tells of people who were being honest. It's heartbreaking, really -- the way these people's lives are bing impacted over the selfishness of McCain and his stupid career.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. How many POWs died in these camps ...
feeling alone, unloved and hopeless because McCain had to cover his ass?

War criminal.

Aiding and abetting during and after the fact.

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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
51. In the past, Dems would have taken the "high road"
and said nothing about this. One of the things I like about Obama is that he stands up for himself and the party. I don't want to see him fling mud unnecessarily, but I like to think that he won't sit back and think about how noble he is while the right wing destroys him with some bullshit swiftboat campaign.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ok I think this vid needs to be front and center
-I respect veterans and POWs but McCain is running on his POW status.

McCain is running on lies and we cannot have another liar in the White House. Period.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. He Lies, Cheats, and Steals
He can't come up with good enough lies on his own, so he steals some Solzhenitsyn to make better ones.
He cheated on the debate, like he cheated with the Keating 5 and he cheated on his first wife.
They steal music for their ads too.

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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks very much. Widely forwarded.
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 09:44 PM by patrice
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I put it on digg as well
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 10:01 PM by CitizenPatriot
http://digg.com/politics/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_John

so if you digg, digg it up pleases let's get it on the front page ;-)
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I should! learn about that.
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. just follow that link
you have to sign up but then you can go to political news and hit dig next to articles you want to rise to the front page. It rocks, because most of the front page articles are all anti-mccain! the reepers (reapers is more like it) are on there, too, it's basically everyone -- but we get to vote on what we want to read. so, the people kinda take over! McCain has peeps there who try to digg up their stuff, but guess what? they have some math program that filters out some of that crap...and then hyou can "bury" comments and articles you don't like ;-)

You can go to my profile (freedomejoe) and see what I've dugg (all anti-McCain or pro-Obama stuff - it's part of my activism work daily!)

http://digg.com/politics/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_John
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I will start doing this too! Thanks very much!
:hi:
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. you rock! n/t
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jamesatemple Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
41. I can digg it.
Thank you for this information. I just joined the digg blog and posted my first message using the user name "bariuke". And, thanks to the OP for a very revealing post.

(I've got to learn how to add emoticons. Please forgive the amateurish format; I'm old, but still trying to participate.)
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. you rock 2!
hey, I can't do the emoticons either. Maybe someone can teach us?

I'll look for you on Digg :-)
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
54. Dugg it ... thank you.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. And yet, he was just at Sturgis???
How many MIA/POW flags did he spit on there? And people probably just ate him up.

Ugh.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I heard (but I could be wrong) that Obama had a more favorable reception there.
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
52. Another thing that freaks me out...
and I see a lot of it here in the south, although I'm sure it exists all over, is "wild and crazy conservatives--guys who are totally stuck in some absurd rebel bad-ass fantasy, covered in tattoos, hair down to their ass, plastic testicles hanging from their truck's trailer hitch, stars-and-bars stickers all over the place---and yet, they unerringly support right-wing fundamentalist candidates who would impose some faux-1950s conformity over the rest of us. "My grandpappy was a rebel and I'm a rebel too and ain't nobody tells me what to do"--but they sure as hell won't hesitate to try to tell everybody else to sit down, shut up, and do whatever Dick Cheney tells you to.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Jesus... I Heard about This, but Man. And Now he Supports Torture
Edited on Mon Aug-18-08 10:18 PM by fascisthunter
what a fucking loser
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. p.s. or more on this
check out the link in my signature which is to the website of the people who made this video

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Excellent... thank you
I will pass it on... I just reposted the link to this video elsewhere, and emailed it to some friends asking them to email it to others.


:patriot:
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. yeah, this video is the gold answer...it just spells it all out
these are the questions I've been waiting for the msm to ask him. why won't he allow his records to be unsealed if he is such a "hero'?

I get so tired of being force fed the I'm a hero stuff, when I know he's deliberately hiding things. After what they did to John Kerry, they have the nerve to run this guy and then HIDE all the trash.

Dem problem is that we don't use power to hide stuff or 40 years. yeah, McCain has "experience" -- experience lying.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It's Incredible what Republicans Get Away with in this Country
deep pockets I'm sure, since they always represented the upper crust, I suppose. Not much has changed since the Great Depression as I am learning now, and now we are about to go into another one... possibly.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. KICK
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Terre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. A couple links I found tooling around the net today
One is from Mark A. Smith, Major, USA, Retired (written on 08/29/99)

Former P.O.W.: "Why I Cannot Support Senator John McCain for President"
http://blog.barofintegrity.us/2008/04/21/former-pow-why...

One is from David H. Hackworth, US Army Col (Retired, deceased in 2005, and written on 01/25/2000)

ARE McCAIN'S HANDLERS PLAYING THE WRONG CARD?
Cached: http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:CWVAOJBgG9IJ:www.ha...


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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. good!
I believe this alone could end it for him - Military guys are gonna watch this and go - songbird for pres? hell no. there's lots of POW's against him, but the guy I want to discuss this is H. ROSS PEROT!
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
53. really? I hope so!
{{there's lots of POW's against him}}

That's good news if it's true. It's amazing that no matter how often Cheney/Bush shits on vets they still seem to fall in lock-step for republicans.
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. Where is the book? Where are the political commercials?
There has to be a non-profit or some private citizen willing to gather all this information and write it down. From the sounds of it there are no shortage of people willing to go on the record, even if they can't get at the records.

I know I would kick in some money and spread the word as well as I could for such an effort. Just don't have the skills. It sure isn't swiftboating if you are telling the TRUTH. His affairs would make a few juicy chapters alone!

Time to play for keeps people. We could have a broken US economy and WW3 if McSame wins. If using the framework of the swiftboaters to tell the story of this guys horrible, and TRUE, past is what it takes so be it imho.
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DAMANgoldberg Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
27. Wow...
If this ever gets mainstream, John McCain is finished. This is his own party dissing him, especially Rep. Bob "B1 Bomber" Dorman, as rabid a republican of that era.
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progdonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. so, now we're spreading dirt from the extreme Right?
The main face I saw in that was Bob Dornan.

During his political career, Dornan became known for his colorful, controversial, or offensive statements. Among his remarks:

* During a House debate in 1994, Dornan outed fellow Republican representative Steve Gunderson, accusing him of having a "revolving door on his closet."<4>
* In a 1986 U.S. House speech, he called Soviet journalist Vladimir Posner a "disloyal, betraying little Jew who sits there on television claiming that he is somehow or other a newsman." This was the only statement Dornan apologized for, saying, "That's the only thing in my life I ever lost sleep over".<6> Dornan also said that he intended "to say 'Judas,' not 'Jew,'" as a rebuttal to Posner's insistence that the Soviet Union was free of anti-Semitism.
* "Every lesbian spear chucker in this country is hoping I get defeated." to a Los Angeles television reporter in 1992 regarding a female challenger in the primary election.
* On a January 28, 1994 appearance on Politically Incorrect, Dornan declared it was "The Year of the Penis" due to recent events in the news. In reference to this comment, Representative Barney Frank noted "Bob Dornan isn't even rational on the House floor. You can't expect him to be rational on Politically Incorrect."<8>
* "You are a slimy coward. Go register in another party." to fellow Republican William Dougherty after he supported Dornan's opponent in 1996.<9>
* "Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet?'."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dornan


Lovely. :eyes:
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Truth is the appropriate antidote to lies. McCain "went there".
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 01:37 AM by Waiting For Everyman
He goes there in every other sentence.

It isn't about the messenger, but the message that matters - if it's true, it stands on its own. But while we're looking at the messenger, it can't be said that he's a liberal. It's like a hostile witness in a court case.

No matter Dornan's faults, it has to be acknowledged that he cares about vets. McCain doesn't.

Yes, I'm sure it would feel good, if McCain gets elected and finishes the destruction of this country, to know that we didn't call him on any of his dirt.

No one made McCain lie about this, he did it on his own. It's a pre-impeachable offense. I see nothing wrong with the media becoming aware of it, and investigating it.


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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Didn't you notice the Rule change in the 2004 election.
Ya, Kerry didn't notice it until it was too late. The thing is, this is part of his voting record too.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. After Gramps McCain said to develop a sense of humor about ObamaNation? Hell, yeah. "All's fair in
love and war" Been thinking about that phrase a lot lately.
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
32. Oh man talk about BUSTED!
A big K&R

:kick:
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
34. Kick and Rec.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. He was singing like a canary
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 07:04 AM by The Wizard
Real heroes shouldn't fear their past.
McCane was given an apartment in Hanoi and plied with prostitutes for his cooperation.
The Vietnamese have him on film made with a hidden camera. If McCane becomes president we'll all be speaking Vietnamese.
There's a good reason his interrogators called him songbird.
For the Swiftboat Liars who sold out John Kerry for beer money:
"Everybody must give something back for something they get"
(Bob Dylan)
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Where's Your Proof?
"McCane was given an apartment in Hanoi and plied with prostitutes for his cooperation."

Have you actually seen this? From what I understand, the Viet Cong were quite masterful at propaganda. Do you have any legit. documentation for your charges?
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. As much as the Swift Boat liars
Make him deny it.
Actually, he was held captive by the North Vietnamese. The VC were South Vietnamese who sided with the North.
I didn't make the rules, Karl Rove did.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
36. I'm not so quick to believe this stuff. Why don't other vet groups like
vote vets and IAVA (Iraq and Afghanistan vets against the war) support this. It could be another group like the swiftboaters who might have been formed during the primaries to fight mcstupid. I'm gonna do a little more research before I decide this is real.
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
37. Actually this isn't "fringe" stuff. Even w/o Dornan (who is certifiable) those on camera
are very very reputable.

Why do you think this isn't mainstream and Rev Wright is?

Hmmmmmm......

(doesn't it just piss you off?) (yeah, me, too)
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
38. I'm depressed, this brings to mind the swiftboat ads.
Maybe thats not the intention of whoever created the ad but thats what it makes me think of :(
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
40. K&R Also, rated on youtube and dugg!
I am going to send this to everyone I know!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
42. K&R and rated on YouTube. nt
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
45. There are a lot of republicans in this video. Is this recent or is it from 2000?
just curious.
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sourmilk Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
46. Compare McTreason's treatment with others' experiences:
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 09:39 AM by sourmilk
http://www.usvetdsp.com/smith_mc.htm

McCain admits that three to four days after he was captured, he promised the Vietnamese, "I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

On June 4, 1969, a U.S. wire service story headlined "PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral," reported one of McCain's radio broadcasts: "Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of the United States commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner.


Even though news reports of McCain collaborating with the enemy continued from the time he was captured in 1967 through 1970, the Navy never considered prosecution as an option.

Instead, Pentagon pencil pushers chose a political spin that lifted McCain, the former POW turned U.S. Senator, up to a glorified pedestal where he sprouted a halo and wings and became America's "POW-hero" and today a presidential candidate.



Compared to:

After two-years of being held as prisoners of war under the most brutal circumstances in the steamy, mosquito infested jungle of South Vietnam, Army Staff Sgt. George E. Smith and Sp/5 Claude McClure could take the torture no more. They asked for and were granted parole. In November 1965, the two demoralized POWs were led across the Cambodian border and released by their Viet Cong captors.

Following their release, Smith and McClure held a press conference in Phnom Penh and made statements that opposed U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

After the debriefing the Army informed them that they were being charged with violating Article 104 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice by "preparing, furnishing, and delivering to the Viet Cong certain documents, statements and writings inimical to the interest of the U.S."

Shocked and demoralized, Smith and McClure quickly learned that the charge of aiding the enemy carries the death penalty and that they could be tried by a military tribunal without witnesses.

Then, the Army dropped another bomb shell in their laps. Their debriefings, which they had given freely and openly were to be used as evidence against them.

Members of the press accepted the Pentagon's accusations against the two enlisted men without investigation or verification of the facts. Some elements of the media printed stories which referred to them as "turncoats."
...
In April 1966, the Pentagon announced to the press that although Smith and McClure had not been totally cleared, the charges were being dismissed because there was "not sufficient evidence to prove a violation."

Smith and McClure were given a less than honorable discharge and drummed out of the Army, their reputations tarnished forever.



Remember, McTraitor lasted FOUR DAYS. Smith and McClure lasted TWO YEARS.
McCollaborator continued to aid VietCong propaganda efforts for THREE YEARS. Smith and McClure made ONE STATEMENT.
McAidandAbet got A HERO'S WELCOME, upon release. Smith and McClure got LESS THEN HONOURABLE DISCHARGES.
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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
47. Bob Dornan
Sure as hell is as republican as you can get. Seeing this coming from him is really damning I think.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
91. First time I have ever had any respect for Bob Dornan, thanks
to this video. There is no question in my mind that McCain is a tool for the GOP who have used him, the War Hero, as McCain is a self serving tool using the public.
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DaveT Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
48. This has been posted here before. It is still wingnut bullshit.
From the final post on that thread:

This is a pretty slimy piece of work. High on innuendo and low on fact, there are very few original sources in the clip. But there are some really heavy hearsay slams, for whatever they are worth -- and Bob Dornan is a man of very questionable sanity.

The POW/MIA movement was shamelessly manipulated by wingnut politicians for decades, and one plausible explanation for why Kerry and McCain worked to stop their endeavors in Congress was because they believed the whole business was a bunch of bullshit.

On the other hand, looking at the current farce of Nancy Pelosi explaining why there will be no impeachment, it is pretty easy to assume the worst about politicians' motivations when it comes to investigating misdeeds committed by the high and mighty.

In short, McCain may be guilty of what this clip claims, but the clip does not make a particularly persuasive case against him.







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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. Uh... the people in this clip ARE original sources, most were...
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 11:24 AM by Waiting For Everyman
principal participants in the hearings they are talking about. (And I watched every one of those hearings myself on C-SPAN at the time.) It's called "eyewitnesses"? Check the titles under their names. The "wingnut" is McCain.

There's plenty of backup information on this, if anyone cares to look. Once again, people simply can't believe McCain's audacity of lies. Well you've seen it yourself in this campaign - what's consistent with what you've seen? That McCain's a choirboy? Or that he's a fig freakin' egocentric liar?

Explain this away...

In Havana, A Page from McCain's Past, Washington Post March 2008
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

FOIA:
HAVANA GRANMA PULISHES INTERVIEW WITH U.S. POW MCCAIN-MEETING BETWEEN SPANISH P Created: 2/6/1970 (5 pages)
http://cryptome.info/cia-mccain-pow/cia-mccain-pow.htm


Dr. Barral, the guy who interviewed McCain for the 1970 story in Havana, is still alive and was the subject of a WaPo article himself last March. McCain himself admitted being interviewed by Barral. Read the transcript of it. Then tell the POWs against McCain that they have nothing to complain about.

Contrary to what Orson Swindle says, NOBODY was with McCain during his first several months in the hospital. No other POWs can vouch for him. None. And the Barral interview was done later, and was voluntary, and not coerced at all. McCain was showboating in that interview.

Does anybody think this lady looks like she's lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AWeZrdxfQ

McCain has some 'splainin' to do.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #55
76. Cardboard with a temper
Does anybody think this lady looks like she's lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AWeZrdxfQ

McCain has some 'splainin' to do.


*********************

Maybe McCain will go ballistic for everyone to see if some brave reporter brings all this up. Let's hope so.

McCain is too old, too unstable and too wishy-washy to be a leader. But the GOP doesn't want a leader in the White House anyway. They want another Ronnie and Dubya so their unelectable cronies can run things as they please. McCain is to be another PR cardboard cutout president with no real power. We're just like Iran or Poland or Uganda. The USA, with a nutty leader who nobody really likes.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
49. I think the MSM is as scared as hell to question anything about McCain's time as a POW
without any actual hard proof--with no transcripts, no tapes. Sure, possibly much of the glory of McCain's POW years is a lie, but it is a lie that has been repeated so often and believed by so many that it is now a legend. Sure, Kerry was a decorated war hero, but being a tortured POW puts McCain in a status far above that.

The question is, why aren't these former POWs and people who were closely involved in the MIA issue screaming this from the housetops everyday, demonstrating, getting arrested, doing anything to get our their message? That would certainly go light years further in revealing McCain's true POW history and his actions as a Senator than any uTube video. I think that without hard proof and considering how many people already know about this, that this story will never be anything like Kerry's swiftboating even if it has the supposed advantage of being true.
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
58. The transcripts in reply #55 surfaced after the video was made..
...from Ted Guy's FOIA request files. Check it out.

Bureaucrats who know about these transcripts aren't going to speak up about it themselves, because if McC gets elected, they'd be on the top of his vendetta list. That's what we, and the press, should be doing.

Yes, it should be said every day until the election!!!

Corsi runs his nonsense on MSM constantly, and THIS isn't worth talking about???
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blackbart99 Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
56. Run this over and over again.
That's all i would do from now till the election, run this over and over and over.................
Till the cows come home.....John "Songbird" McCain.
:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :spank:

:kick:
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NI4NI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
57. "John McCain is no hero POW"
http://blog.barofintegrity.us/2008/01/31/john-mccain-is...

Besides McCain's so-called "collaborations with the enemy", is it also fair to question McCain's present day mindset concerning his attempted suicide while a POW.
Can anyone name an American president who ever made an attempt on their own life?

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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Eagleton got scuttled for less than McC's issues.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. Bush tried to choke himself with a pretzel (nt)
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. I make it a personal policy to never trust
anyone who hasn't thought about suicide or experimented with drugs.

It may be sad, but I have have seldom been disappointed. People who have done neither are not living hard enough or thinking hard enough....
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
59. 23 diggs since last night on this video!
http://digg.com/politics/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_John

I see you on there Baiuke! love your comment.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
61. WOW
Unreal that they'll leak classified documents disclosing the identities of our spies in order to help the republicans' rush into an unnecessary war...

But these documents - no leaks.

Shameful.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
62. HELP! youtube is blocked by my work. Is there another link
or even a transcript somewhere? I've GOT to know what it says!
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
63. John McSame is a SLEEZY, SLIMEY, SLIPPERY MOTHER FUCKER
for blocking the release of those tapes that would help the veterans of the VN War
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LaStrega Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
64. Wow.
This is perhaps the most disparaging video I've viewed concerning McCain. And as you all know, there's lots out there.

k and enthusiastic r
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
65. Looks like Republicans are trying to knock McCain out before the convention. n/t
n/t
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. Swiftboat his sorry ass...
but without resorting to lies. This would probably destroy his standing with most veterans. They have so much ammunition, yet seem to be afraid or unwilling to use it.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
68. That's a real eye-opener.
If this were widely known, it would be all over for McCain.
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
72. This video and other great videos are on this site - link below
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com /

Haven't checked to see if these have been added to YouTube, but here is some great stuff!
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
77. And what about Admiral Stockdale, fellow POW,
Go to his Wikipedia entry to save me typing pages of how this ridiculed non-politician candidate(ran with Perot) without benefit of handlers or special interests, is superior in every way imaginable to McCain. The trashing, pitying judgments against the decorated lamb led to the slaughter are a complete disgrace compared to anyone taking McCain seriously now for his rattled age and questionable war record(for starters).

On a scale of typical nauseating, untrue GOP hype to smearing the lipstick on the pig I think McCain is off the chart enough for pigs to lodge a complaint.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. Stockdale was the senior-ranking Navy officer in the Hanoi camps
and he was the one who back in late 1966-early 1967 set forth the policy of NO EARLY RELEASE - WE ALL GO HOME TOGETHER.

In essence, when McCain refused early release, he was merely following standing orders.

For further information, I suggest getting a copy of his book In Love And Warfrom a good library or bookstore.

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deeppeace Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
79. Indeed!
Spread the word, dammit. There's civility and there's "here, take my lunch money." The Dems need to step up and fight. Honorably, with integrity, but with the backbone they were born with.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
80. The garbage in this OP ought to make any decent person puke
Edited on Tue Aug-19-08 07:05 PM by creeksneakers2
Its all the worst kind of lies. Its like the swift boat veterans on steroids.

The Vets group this comes from spent years making easy money conning POW/MIA families, who must have been in great pain already, with lies about POW/MIAs being left alive in Vietnam. It was all a scam and its well debunked on the web. The Pentagon investigated and found no truth to the POW hoax. The Vets group cried cover up. So another investigation was done of the first investigating. Still the POW myth was exposed as a lie. So McCain and Kerry formed an investigation that went exhaustively through all the possible evidence of POWs left alive. No credible evidence was found.

There was no cover up. No matter how many investigations you have, no matter how much proof you can produce, the con men just say its a cover up of a cover up of a cover up with an even bigger cover up. That's what the con men are saying about Kerry and McCain.

In 2004 this same group went after Kerry just as hard as they are going after McCain now. Of course Freepers lapped this stuff all up because they have no decency. Freepers especially loved the story about Kerry bayoneting a baby. One Republican stood up to the vet group - John McCain. Partly because McCain was so long a victim of the same kind of smears from these people.

I'm angry that those on the left are so quick to believe all this without checking.

Bob Dornan should be a dead giveaway. Bob Dornan is the crazy Republican who came up with the idea that Bill Clinton was a KGB agent. The man is a kook beyond belief.

I'm going to find a couple of links and edit them in. Meanwhile, I hope all who are thinking of spreading this smear will think about how badly it will backfire when the truth comes out. There is tons of great stuff to use against John McCain. We don't need trash like this.

http://www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm

http://www.miafacts.org/prankster.htm
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Stop talkin' sense, hitler!
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
86. Then maybe you'd like to call the Washington Post on this story?
Edited on Wed Aug-20-08 04:09 AM by Waiting For Everyman
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

This is the kind of stuff McCain doesn't want coming to light... his many interviews and recordings.

The WaPo is not a "vet group". Neither the "debunkers" nor McCain himself can explain this away. And since they can't, their hot air and name-calling is irrelevant. I'll say again, it doesn't matter WHO the message-bearer is - that changes NOTHING of the facts reported.

Excerpt below:

The interview lasted between 45 minutes and an hour, Barral recalled. He said the men met at the offices of Hanoi's Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations, while McCain said in his book that the interview took place in a hotel.

McCain was escorted to the interview from the infamous "Hanoi Hilton," a prison where American servicemen were tortured and lived in miserable conditions. Barral said he does not know why his North Vietnamese handlers chose the cultural center as the site for the interview. But the location did not bother Barral because he wasn't interested in the conditions of the prison, merely in finding out what "the enemy" was thinking.

Barral said he conducted a cursory medical examination and found that McCain had difficulty rotating his arms. McCain told him that he had not been subjected to "physical or moral violence," Barral noted at the time.

In his small, precise handwriting, Barral noted that cookies, candies, teacups, oranges and cigarettes were on the table. McCain, who had suffered multiple fractures after ejecting from his plane, walked in leaning on a cane, Barral said.

Quickly dispensing with the pro forma name, rank and serial number, the men talked about McCain's family, his aspirations and the shootdown of his plane, according to Barral's notes. In his book, McCain writes that Barral asked "rather innocuous questions about my life, the schools I had attended and my family."

"He was only interested in talking about himself," Barral recalled. "He had a big ego."

The son and grandson of U.S. Navy admirals, McCain lamented in the interview that "if I hadn't been shot down, I would have become an admiral at a younger age than my father," Barral's notes state. Barral said McCain boasted that he was the best pilot in the Navy and that he wanted to be an astronaut.

"He felt superior to the Vietnamese up there in his plane, with all his training," Barral recalled.

McCain did not ask questions about news from abroad, Barral said, but did ask the psychologist to get a message to his then-wife, Carol McCain, and provided her address in Orange Park, Fla.

"Tell her I'm well," Barral noted McCain saying. "Tell her I wish her all the best and that she shouldn't worry about me."

Though McCain says he did not discuss military matters with Barral, a U.S. commander in the prison later issued an order forbidding U.S. POWs to be interviewed by visitors, McCain wrote in his book. The decision was "a sound one, even though it deprived me of further opportunities to demonstrate 'my psychic equilibrium' to disapproving fraternal socialists, not to mention the extra cigarettes and coffee," McCain wrote.


Barral's interview with the son and grandson of U.S. admirals was considered a huge coup and "newsworthy," according to the 1970 Granma article. The communist party newspaper ran a close-up of McCain's face on its front page.

"I'm not sure if it was for propaganda purposes," Barral said recently of the 1970 interview. "But I accept it if I was an instrument for propaganda."



***

Transcript of Barral's 1970 interview with McCain...

http://cryptome.info/cia-mccain-pow/cia-mccain-pow.htm

McCain admitted it. Barral described it very similarly. So go ahead, prove it's false. Then get McCain and Barral to reverse their own statements and deny it. Until then, you are the one making false accusations.


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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. I don't see how this relates to the sensational accusations
in the OP.

The guys in the OP claim McCain withheld classified information that could have let to POWs being released because he didn't want the public to learn that he cooperated with the Vietnamese.

The fact that McCain was once interviewed by a Cuban newspaper has nothing to do with the OP. McCain admitted all along he was interviewed, so he wasn't hiding anything about the interview.

I don't see the interview with the Cuban as that damning about anything. McCain accepted some goodies and said he wasn't tortured. Those are minor transgressions that took place while McCain was under extreme duress.
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. It has everything to do with it...
Edited on Wed Aug-20-08 01:00 PM by Waiting For Everyman
This interview is one of those which McCain was trying to hide by sealing ALL POWs' records. THIS is one of the things he wanted to make sure would NEVER come out in readable, factual, transcript form. Mentioning it is not the same as seeing it. This is an example of the REASON for McCain's sabotage of the 1992 hearings, and for classifying as much information as possible. This is what Dornan referred to in the video when he said McCain threatened the VN about EVER releasing it. This is what the whole issue was about!!!

Not relevant?

McCain was casual and cooperative about giving his "interviews". That impression didn't quite come out when he mentioned it. Also, he DID go into military details in it, certainly far beyond what was allowed.

It isn't about whether McCain was ever tortured or not (although that is greatly exaggerated). It's the voluntary, eager cooperation. It's what he SAID in those interviews and the fact that it ran in the Communist newspaper in Havana.

That might not be a big deal to you. But I guarantee it would be a big deal to vets who don't know about it. Nobody can read that transcript of Barral's 1970 interview with McC and not be outraged by it.

And McCain knows it. It has always been ALL about his career and his ambition.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. McCain never hid the interview
Whatever was said there is McCain's word against the interviewer.
McCain discussed the interview in his book, so there is no reason for him to withhold information.

http://www.miafacts.org/pages_304_5.htm

The more I watch McCain, the more I'm convinced he'll sink to just about anything. To say though that he'd leave US Troops behind in Vietnam just because a less favorable version of this story could come out (which it already had anyway)is beyond belief.

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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. No, there's a transcript of it, it's not a question of whose word

It's simple. There were sightings of men left behind. McCain sealed the information.

If you'd like to say there was a different motive for it, how does that matter?

It was obvious to everybody that McCain's objective was to keep his own records sealed. It doesn't require a leap of faith.
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
82. K&R
Now Johnny boy have a new nickname:McCanary.
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RNdaSilva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
84. I'm an old vet and would never support...
Mc .

I've always wondered if he was allowed conjugal visits with "Hanoi" Jane Fonda.

Truth or no, this would never make the rounds of the MSM. Unless declassification of materials proved this to be factual beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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CaptJasHook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
87. ALERT: They are busy trying to take Ted Sampley down.
Not that I give a shit about the propagandist.

But interesting to note that when he was attacking John Kerry, it was easy to find him on the web.

Two of his websites have been taken down. What the Frack? The Republican Corporatists want him taken down. They recognize the threat he poses to their candidate and seem to have the influence to cripple him.

Conspiracy anyone?
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. If he's so wrong, why are they worried?
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
93. one more kick... n/t
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