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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:24 PM
Original message
Question for DU....14-year-old child missing for 10 years, is found -
In recent news (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032300404_2.html) a 14-year-old girl was convinced to leave her family and manipulated into staying away for 10 years by a man who befriended her at school (he was a security guard) using standard mind control techniques intended to leverage feelings of isolation and inadequacy. It is clear from the article that this man’s motivation was at least partly sexual.

This seems so clear cut. I see a vulnerable child who was exposed to undue pressure by a person with questionable motivation into surrendering her relationship with her family. I believe the person who did this to the youngster to have committed a crime. He used his age and his intellectual cunning to psychologically influence a child into doing what he wanted - against her best interests and certainly against her family (so far it is unknown to what degree they contributed to the child's psychological state preceding her departure).

I also believe there had to be some vulnerability in the child to allow for this manipulation to occur, although I am not sure that the same thing could have occurred if she had been 19 instead of 14 years old. Perhaps some of those vulnerabilities include a poor self-image, a rocky relationship at home – between the child and her parents, perhaps between the parents or perhaps both – combined with a lack of social skills that made her feel isolated and unaccepted by her peers.

These are common vulnerabilities afflicting our young people for a variety of reasons, one of which is really developmental. Children mature at different rates and deal with issues like autonomy, self-reliance, and the development of a stable self-image differently. Some experience crisis-like trauma during the resolution of these various issues. Do you recall feeling alone, unacceptable, even ugly and awkward during your adolescence?

So, the question is, was this child manipulated and abused, as I feel she was, or must she take responsibility for the choices she made? In other words, who gets the blame – the child or the security guard?

I ask because adolescence seems to me to be a particularly vulnerable stage of development in the US, with our focus on beauty, acceptance and individual success – standards that are really at odds with the facts of adolescent development which include a certain awkward development of secondary sexual characteristics, along with a growth spurt that leaves many teens looking/ feeling gangly and ungainly, all part of the of process of growing into a mature adult. Boys’ voices start to crack as they make the transition from childhood to manhood; girls start to gain some womanly shape but simultaneously may seem knobby kneed and clumsy as their body adjusts to the many changes it undergoes in developing to reproductive maturity. Is it any wonder that young people so often feel self-conscious about themselves?

This leads me to wondering about all that talk about personal responsibility in youths who commit crimes of various sorts. Can a youth be influenced by adults into doing something so terribly wrong that the adult can be exculpated on the basis of the serious nature of the crime? In other words - when a young person "crosses the line" on some crimes, even though he/she was influenced by an adult, does that mean that this young person has made a deliberate and well-thought out choice that deserves punishment by the full force of the law? Or does the youngster rather deserve the protection of the law because of the limitations of development placed by natural and cultural circumstances? Is there some middle ground?

These questions naturally lead me to ask…what about the child’s rights? Where do a child’s rights and the parent’s rights as juxtaposed against those of society exist, or co-exist, and what boundaries are to be placed around such rights by a society that naturally cares about the well being and the health of its youth even as it cares about the individual and civil rights of its citizens? What about the event of pregnancy and consideration of its termination?

If we just declare that all people, young and old, possess the same moral abilities and therefore the same moral responsibility for their behavior we make it easy to choose an answer to all of the questions I’ve asked. Yes, the child is responsible for choosing to go with the man. Yes, a crime committed by a child is a crime deserving punishment to the full extent permitted by law. Yes, a decision to terminate a pregnancy is a valid individual choice for a youngster to make.

Or perhaps we respond differently – NO! A child whose vulnerabilities have been exploited by an adult cannot be held to the same moral and behavioral standard as a competent adult, and the exploitation of the child is a criminal act in and of itself. Nor can a child be held to answer to the law in the same manner as an adult – no matter how serious the crime – because of the very real (organic and psychological) differences imposed by human developmental processes. And no – a child must not make a decision about his/her body without the aid and support of family and/or the representatives of the larger society which looks out for his/her best interests.

How do you answer these questions? And on what basis do you do so? Are you relying on moral arguments arising from religious tradition, on scientific research into body and brain function, or on your own experience – which may or may not be “representative” of most experience – or, are you answering from deeply held convictions and biases? What does a society do with these questions?

What say you, DU?
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clearly, a minor is not responsible for their own actions in this case.
I don't believe in trying kids as adults in any circumstance, because kids don't have the same experience basis for decision-making as adults do.

Granted, the age of 18 is an arbitrary hurdle, as some people develop this capacity earlier than others.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks for posting! Obviously
I lean in the same direction...but watch what we see develop hereas people weigh in... there are such huge discrepancies in our belief systems and judgments. I ask the questions because I want us to become aware of the disconnect that exists and maybe enter a discussion on why this exists, maybe even ways to change it.

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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. The security guard is to blame.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. agreed
thanks for posting!
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's a tough question....
It's really hard to lump all of the situations that impact today's youth in one or the other pile....

Each case is uniquely different and has to be evaluated that way.

A child that has experienced incest..does she have to go to the very adult that committed the crime to get an abortion?

The teenager that goes on a shooting spree (Columbine-I know they killed themselves but if they didn't) knowing full well that killing is not acceptable should be prosecuted as adults....

The two kids that shot up the elementry who were elementry kids themselves...they were very young but they had the consciousness to know right from wrong.....if you slap them on the wrist there are no repurcussions for their actions...

This is a really hard question...
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You are right, it IS a hard question.
That's why I ask the questions because there are such huge discrepancies in our belief systems and judgments. I ask the questions because I want us to become aware of the disconnect that exists and maybe enter a discussion on why this exists, maybe even ways to change it.

And thanks for posting!
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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Teen brains are not mature
and are very different from adult brains. Teenagers often make poor decisions and act impulsively because their brains haven't attained an adult level of organization.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. no disagreement here...but what about elsewhere?
Watch as the discussion continues - if it does - you'll see that there are such huge discrepancies in our belief systems and judgments. I ask the questions because I want us to become aware of the disconnect that exists and maybe enter a discussion on why this exists, maybe even ways to change it.

Thanks for reading and posting!
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mokaye Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. She was a child. He was an adult. Period. n/t
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. agreed.
thanks for stopping by, mokaye!
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. the man has been arrested and charged with crimes
But I don't think kidnapping is one of them but perhaps it will be added. The law agrees with you.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. when it's kidnapping, yes. but how bout when the man convinces her
to do something illegal? rob a bank, say...or something even more heinous. what then?
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Hobo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. The security guard is the one to blame .....
not a vulnerable young girl. You said it yourself in your original post:

A child whose vulnerabilities have been exploited by an adult cannot be held to the same moral and behavioral standard as a competent adult, and the exploitation of the child is a criminal act in and of itself. Nor can a child be held to answer to the law in the same manner as an adult – no matter how serious the crime – because of the very real (organic and psychological) differences imposed by human developmental processes. And no – a child must not make a decision about his/her body without the aid and support of family and/or the representatives of the larger society which looks out for his/her best interests.

What more needs to be said?

- Hobo
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. well...the question arises because of our differing
views when the problem is worded differently. a 14-year-old boy has been under the sway of a much older man. he is persuaded to commit a crime. a horrible crime. who is now guilty? and to what degree?
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. hmmm
"Or perhaps we respond differently – NO! A child whose vulnerabilities have been exploited by an adult cannot be held to the same moral and behavioral standard as a competent adult, and the exploitation of the child is a criminal act in and of itself. Nor can a child be held to answer to the law in the same manner as an adult – no matter how serious the crime – because of the very real (organic and psychological) differences imposed by human developmental processes. And no – a child must not make a decision about his/her body without the aid and support of family and/or the representatives of the larger society which looks out for his/her best interests."


As far as I am concerned, what you say here would be the correct answer. Teens are not adults, they are still growing and learning. Plus we really don't know the family complications that led to this degree of vulnerability and also led the child to stay with this individual for 10 years. That in itself is astounding. Hopefully the society is able to take a more complex view of teen behaviors, rather than the moralistic 3 strikes, type approach.

Or are you aiming at a back-door parent notification argument? Oddly enough parental notification has not necessarily led to a decrease in abortions per se, although I think it could be a good idea if the parents are not violent or abusive.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No back door. Just questions...though
I am hoping for a dialogue that will help us collectively look at the way we see, explain and deal with the issues.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. sure
it's a very important question. I think that there are kids/teens who do know what they are doing when they commit a crime and choose to do it anyway. But there are also kids who have no idea what they are doing and really don't have the moral and cognitive development( or impulse control) to know how problematic their behavior is. It's a very complex issue.

actually I have been thinking a lot this week about Kohlberg's stages of moral development - that might be an interesting place to look if you aren't familiar with them.... :)

here's a link to a thumbnail sketch....

http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/kohlberg.html
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. thanks for the link...I have some reservations about
Kohlberg's theory -- not that it isn't a valuable contribution, but because I find Gilligan's claim that his theory might be sexist to be intriguing.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I suspect a lot of male theorists from that period
and even some of the female theorists might appear to be sexist under the scrutiny of current thinking....

Fritz Perls was certainly no prize....

However, Piaget still holds up pretty well. I think sometimes it is important to view theories from the past in an objective light and see if the actual concepts make sense today...I like Jung quite a bit despite all his baggage...
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. "I think sometimes it is important to view theories from the past"
in an objective light and see if the actual concepts make sense today...

I couldn't agree more. I think this makes me a bit of an "eclectic" (although I prefer the term "integrationist" because I rather think each of the theorists "sees" a part of the whole -- and naturally missing the big picture sometimes errs along the way, which in no way invalidates the part that is seen.

Story of the elephant and the blind men comes to mind. We're seeking to know the elephant. Theorists explain what they can see from their own unique perspective. Valuable! Indispensable even, when limited in ability to see. But, each must be taken as just a part of the picture, and not necessarily completely, literally accurate in its entirety.

I love Jung.....read some of Estes works for a great ride. (Women Who Run With Wolves)
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. yes I read that years ago
probably worth a re-read.

I'm a big fan of various female Jungian theorists and practioners...

:hi:
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. My niece was molested at age 14 by her stepfather, courts gave him
minimal punishment because she was 14 and not 13. I think that the age cut-off is too low.

I believe that 14 is much too young for children developmentally and experientially to be held totally responsible for their actions or inactions. They are not young children, but neither are they adults. Maybe raging hormones have something to do with their ability to make decisions

The only reason the molestation was discovered was because my niece almost lost her life due to a suicide attempt. For whatever reasons, she did not disclose what happened when it happened-was it (non-deserved) guilt? fear of sending step-dad to jail?, fear of what it would do to her half-brother? fear of having to testify? fear of causing stress to the family? Did the stress of the situation cloud her immature thinking about what to do?

Lots of factors play into why kids do what they do, but no matter what, the adults that commint crimes in these situations need to be held accountable!
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. sorry for your niece! and for you...it's sad to see, I know.
I agree totally. But look at the conundrum we get into when we start down the road toward making some arbitrary cut-off -- is the child then capable of committing a crime in the same sense that an adult is? we are all over the map, and terribly inconsistent, I feel. I think we could use more dialogue on the questions this raises.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. I appreciate the great thought you put into this post, but plain & simple
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 01:07 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
she was a victim and to place some blame on her, considering what she must have been through, is horrendous to me.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. absolutely agree!
And it's interesting to me that people find this so simple, whereas when the issue centers around something done by the child (even at the instigation of an adult) there is a 90 degree shift in thinking.
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Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. You raise some good questions
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 01:08 PM by Love Bug
I think it is clear in this case this girl was psychologically manipulated into leaving with this man. He should be prosecuted for kidnapping and abuse. Elizabeth Smart (also 14 at the time) was kidnapped against her will yet, because of psychological manipulation and abuse, didn't leave her captor even though she had opportunities to do so. He was charged and convicted.

I don't believe in prosecuting as adults 14 year olds who commit heinous crimes because I believe they are not adults. However, society demands justice when 14 year olds murder other 14 year olds.

There doesn't seem to be a one-size-fits-all solution for this. What usually happens to the perp depends on the level of public outrage and the gender/race of the victims/perps.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I guess I'm not very comfortable with public outrage, gender/race of perp
and victims as moral arbitters in a civilized society that claims to care about its youth. Thus the attempt to stimulate the discussion.

Thanks for coming by and sharing your thoughts Love Bug!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. Did people blame Elizabeth Smart for getting kidnapped? Granted I don't
believe she ever became pregnant by that nutcase, but what if? Would people still have wept over her in the same way if she had made the choices you laid out?
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. confused...which choices I laid out? Me sincerely dense sometimes.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. Well, if nobody else is going to play devil's advocate...
In the case described above, it sure sounds like the man manipulated her, but that isn't the only possibility. It could be that she was just another teenage runaway, unhappy at home for whatever reason, who used this man as her exit strategy. Shudder the thought that a 14 year old girl could be sexually manipulative. She now says that he used "mind games" to make her think nobody cared about her. My gut reaction to that is "give me a fucking break". She goes home with this guy and in the span of a day he's able to convince her that her family doesn't want her? Think back to when you were 14. Would you have bought that? Would you have gone home with a person more than twice your age? Now more than ever, kids know what that entails. The police chief himself says "Kach wasn't being held against her will". She was obviously allowed out of the house. Maybe after 10 years the relationship soured and she decided she wanted out. But how do you go back to your family and say "Sorry, I ran off with a middle-aged guy when I was 14, can I move back in now?" Maybe you make up a story about how you were manipulated by his mind games.

Obviously no 38 year old should be screwing around with a 14 year old girl, but was she in no way responsible and completely a victim? Isn't it also possible that she made a bad decision when she was young and now refuses to take responsibility for it? Gee, I've never seen a woman do that! Hey, there are some evil manipulative women out there, and who's to say she isn't one of them? To paraphrase Frank Zappa, women do stupid shit too and they shouldn't get a free pass just because they have different genitals. Now, before anybody goes and says that I'm bashing women, rest assured, I'm not. I love women in every way it's possible to love. But there is a small minority of psycho women out there who are unwilling take responsibility for their actions and instead choose to play the victim, and since women are often genuinely victimized, they tend to get away with it.

When all's said and done, the only way to take these things is on a case by case basis. As has been said, there's no magic age at which people are suddenly mature enough to handle adult relationships or take responsibility for their actions. Some people are never capable of doing that. I tend to think people don't give teens enough credit though. More often than not I think they know what they're doing and do consider the consequences. Yes, teens may do things they regret, but so do adults. Making mistakes is all part of learning and growing. Think back to your teenage years. Were you weak and vulnerable and completely at the mercy of others? I doubt it, and if you were I'd bet even money that you probably still are.
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