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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:09 AM
Original message
Are those who display the Confederate flag traitors?
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 03:11 AM by BullGooseLoony
I've always found it....odd....No, MUCH more than "odd"... that so many Americans, predominantly in the South, who would go so far as to call themselves "patriotic" (without, of course, having the first clue as to what the word means) would display the American flag with such pride, while at the same time, perhaps in a backroom or maybe a special window of some kind, put up for viewing the Confederate flag.

Don't these so-called "patriotic" Americans understand the antithetical representations that these two flags put forward? They, more than just symbollicly- but, actually, annihilate each other. Surely, musn't there be some kind of greater loyalty to the United States as a whole, that precludes a loyalty to the has-been, in-fact destroyed Confederate States that would SHAME such a "patriotic" demographic into, at the very least, silence, and, maybe, in my wildest dreams, a trip to the library in which the stupid bastards might actually read and digest the Constitution of those States that won out, that Constitution of the States' forefathers? Which is, itself, possibly the most refined and best product of two or three centuries' worth of Enlightenment?

Or, must we just accept the fact that we have a bunch of traitors in our midst?
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think it means many different things to many different people.
Some are Lynyrd Skynyrd fans, some are members of the Ku Klux Klan, and others re-enact the Civil War.

Some are patriots; some are traitors.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I tend to agree with that....flags in particular are extremely vague
in their meaning.

But, how on Earth is it that a house can display BOTH the American flag AND the Confederate flag?

Don't they, at the very least, understand that the Confederates were rebels, and that that flag was a symbol of disagreement with........the American flag?

How can someone, honestly, display BOTH, is my question.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. Bingo
BTW I bought a confederate flag with the word REDNECK written accross it for kicks. The funny part is where I bought it. A county fair in upstate New York. Only had to go 1000 miles out of the south to get it, I guess. The guy who sold it to me assured me that there are a lot of "Northern Rebels".
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. And Lynyrd Skynyrd were Democrats
Yes, the flag has been co-opted by the likes of the KKK, but, quite honestly, it has much more to do with with states' rights and heritage to many folks than it does racism. Believe me, many people who fly that flag really do believe that history was rebuked by not allowing states' rights and they're not racist; then, of course, some are racist - that's a fact.

It really depends on the person - honestly. The flag, because I know what it actually MEANS, doesn't bother me that much. I simply don't care to make a big deal out about it because I don't want racists to have the power. I'd prefer to think of it as representative of a very turbulent time in this country's history.

You have to remember that many Southerners, including Robert E. Lee, didn't own slaves, but still believed that states should have the right to govern their own people. Slavery would have eventually been abolished by the sheer fact that our agrarian society was on the way out. If the North had provided better alternatives for the South in terms of industrializing our area, slavery would have been gone without so much as a shout. There were slaves in the North up until the point that the Industrial Revolution became more predominate than farming - it would have happened in the South, too, eventually, but it may not have prevented a war based on states' rights.

(P.S. Just a note about the KKK. The organization initially started as, not a racist one, but as a "police" force, if you will, to protect Southerners from murderous and raping carpetbaggers. I'm not kidding. It only became a racist organization during the Great Depression when many ill-informed white men blamed black men for taking their jobs away - not realizing that, quite honestly, there were no jobs to be had by either.)
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. your post sounds like it is based upon BIRTH OF A NATION
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 09:07 AM by Neil Lisst
You're mistaken about the KKK. It hardly waited until the Depression to start its malevalent actions against blacks, and it had nothing to do with jobs. It was about keeping blacks "in their place."

I don't know what your source has been for the post you made, but I encourage you to read some better ones.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. The Confederate Flag is a symbol, and not a good one
Can you imagine if Germans dragged out their old Nazi flags and said WWII was all about German pride and heritage?

The Confederate Flag symbolizes the traitorous actions of a group of rebels in the United States, and also symbolizes the oppression of blacks.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. The KKK DID die down after the 1800s ended and DID NOT
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 09:45 AM by Clark2008
become a resurgent force again until the 1930s. That's a fact.

It was about jobs - but, yes, it was about racism. I didn't mean to gloss over that fact, but their excuse was the jobs - in the 1930s, leastwise. I was speaking, specifically, to it's becoming a larger force again in the 1930s, not to its existance in the whole of history to keep black in their place. That is true.

And, I'm FROM Tennessee, the birthplace of the KKK. I know it's history. And I encourage you to look, specifically, to the time frame I was referencing - not the history of the organization as a whole. I'm certainly not defending the KKK - I was speaking, again specifically, to when they became a purely racist organization, not their general, overall, history.

P.S. I also don't dispute that the KKK wasn't maleviolent against black people between 1865 and the 1930s, but their numbers dwindled until the Great Depression - that was my point. They didn't become a larger, and unfortunately, more popular, force until then.


Here found this for you:

In 1915, William J. Simmons founded a totally new group using the same name and costumes. It did not grow until the early 1920s; it then had a huge nationwide boom in membership. By 1924, it was in retreat and, by 1928, had dwindled to less than 5% of its original membership. This second Klan fought to maintain the dominance of moralistic white Protestants over "sinners"--especially bootleggers, adulterers, Blacks, Catholics, and Jews. The second KKK operated openly, and at its peak, in the 1920s, claimed millions of members in the South and Midwest. Many politicians at all levels of government were members, and, at its height, opponents claimed that it had secretly influenced some state governments, including Oregon and Indiana. Multiple scandals involving sex, murder and violence destroyed its reputation, and by 1928 only scattered remants remained in isolated pockets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

Please read the whole of the entry. There are a few things there I dispute (it doesn't speak nearly enough about the violent aspect), but, overall, it's more of an academic piece instead of one born from a political point of view.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. no shit. one of the creepiest posts I have read on DU in awhile.
:scared:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Creepy?
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 09:29 AM by Clark2008
Because I was speaking to a specific time frame.

Oh brother. :eyes:

You need also to read my follow-up post in which I made it more clear that I was discussing the fact that the KKK's numbers dwindled between 1900 and 1930. I wasn't saying, at all, that the KKK isn't a racist organization. It is, but it didn't BEGIN that way (even though I'm sure there were racist elements - naturally). It BEGAN as a posse - and they hated ALL Northerners, white and black. Seriously.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. I get so sick of hearing that "heritage" meme.
You admit that the KKK dwindled up until 1930 but you don't see the correlation between the KKK's rise and the rise of the confederate flag when those uppity black folks started to demand equal rights?

For the most part, this flag isn't about the fond memories of sipping mint juleps on the porch; it is about racism, segregation and hate.

http://www.slate.com/id/97606

With the rise of racial liberalism in the mid-20th century, historians revised their assessments of the Civil War and Reconstruction, and support for the Lost Cause mythology waned. But, paradoxically, the advance of civil rights also contributed to the revival of symbols and language of the Confederacy, as white Southerners saw their system of legalized segregation endangered. During Strom Thurmond's 1948 campaign for the presidency, his Dixiecrat supporters brandished Confederate flags and photos of Robert E. Lee. Within a couple of years, the rebel banner became, in one historian's words, "a nationwide fad, foreshadowing coonskin caps and hula hoops."

The Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision, striking down segregated schools, fueled the backlash. Confederate lore and imagery accompanied a widespread Southern campaign of "massive resistance" to federal desegregation orders. Dozens of U.S. congressmen signed the "Southern Manifesto" pledging to fight federal intervention, and federal troops and Southern whites faced off at schools in Little Rock in 1957, Montgomery in 1961, and the University of Mississippi in 1962. The star-studded X of the Confederate battle flag began appearing on redesigned Southern state banners, and demonstrators waved the Dixie standard at anti-integration protests.

In response to civil rights advances, new Southern heritage groups also sprang up, devoted to such efforts as schooling children in their own version of Civil War history. One 1954 "catechism" discovered by author Tony Horwitz taught kids that slaves "were always ready and willing to serve" their masters and that the "War Between the States" was caused by "the disregard by those in power for the rights of Southern states." That language was telling: for although many Southern whites openly espoused white supremacism, they nonetheless insistedagain like their Lost Cause predecessorsthat they were really championing the cause of states' rights. The new Southern resistance was most famously epitomized by Alabama Gov. George Wallace, whose defiant defense of segregation shocked liberals but found unexpected legions of followers in Maryland, Wisconsin, and elsewhere outside Dixie.

Wallace's popularity highlighted an unusual divergence in American values in the '60s. On the one hand, the civil rights movement succeeded smashinglynot just in dismantling segregation but also in making the belief in equal rights and the tolerance of differences a broadly accepted national creed. Racism had been routed, discredited. Yet at the same time, as Wallace realized, resentment toward Washington and the welfare state was burgeoning around America, and the ancient call of "states' rights" now resonated with those whose complaints had little to do with forced desegregation. In particular, Westerners such as Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon, and Ronald Reagan realized they could tap into the anti-Washington ardor of the once solidly Democratic South to build a new Republican coalition. Goldwater's inroads in the South came at the expense of his popularity elsewhere (his opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, for example, hurt him), but Nixon and Reaganand later Bush pre and filsbrought the South decisively into the GOP tent.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. clearly, he's indoctrinated badly regarding the Confederacy & KKK
It's like arguing with someone who doesn't believe in the holocaust.

What's the point of arguing?
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
63. What about these?...
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. not traitors, just idiots.
sorry, couldn't help it.

anyone who would celebrate what the south was about during the civil war is either daft about history or a bigot.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The problem with that, IMHO, is
that it would seem some here would attack the north and Lincoln as easily as the south on the whole war thing.

My wife loves reading about the civil war, watching videos on it, and so on. She respects both north and south for their efforts and battles. It was a terrible war with many dying on both sides for a variety of causes. It is worth noting, for trivia's sake perhaps, that civil war statues up here in the north face south, and vice versa.

Despite the politicians and the politics of that war many average people fought and died in it. Many did not go overboard in their politics, they just did what they were told to do - fight. It was a different time with different people, different lifestyles and beliefs, and so on.

The flag to her represents a side in a major historical time period, it reminds us of many things. One cannot help how another interprets a symbol. When she sees that flag it means something different than when someone else might see it.

Myself I would not mind having a nazi flag to sit around the house, my office perhaps. When someone asks why we could jump into history and discuss what it was, what it meant, and how we need to learn the lessons of history - and how we are on that path again. While it is something that screams evil it also is a part of our history and who we are as a people/race. It cannot and should not be forgotten.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, but the problem with your argument is that the South lost,
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 03:37 AM by BullGooseLoony
and they were rebellious in the Union.

Displaying a swastika so that one might discuss folly is one thing, but if one is displaying a Confederate flag....in the South...the DEEP South....and in nearly deliberate contradiction to the North, for the same purpose....it would seem that the flag, or at least your representation of it, it pretty traitorous to the Old Glory of today.

So, raising the American flag at the same time as the Confederate would seem to be pretty goddamned contradictory, and, really, ignorant.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Not really.
I don't understand why you think this way. The Confederate flag is HISTORY - it's no longer a symbol of rebellion against the United States - it's a PART of the United States' history, now.

If this were 1860, your argument would hold water, but it's 2006. The flag is merely, now, cloth representing history.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
58. It will always be a symbol
of crimes against humanity. Not the kind of thing you want hanging around in public to inspire and morally cripple future generations.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Thank you.
You have a good grasp on the issue and a clear understanding that a flag is just cloth - a representation of a period of time - and not something to be fought over upon it becoming ancient history.

My husband is Jewish and the Nazi flag, itself, doesn't bother him; however, he is bothered by what it represented in the 1930s and 40s. His anger is reserved for the actions of the PEOPLE at the time, not a piece of cloth.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. So many tend to wave the American flag at the same time.
That's my main concern- that, maybe, they aren't really thinking about the depths or ramifications of their "loyalties."


(snort)
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
31. Hmmm... I'm thinking YOU are a little daft about history.
My father is a Civil War historian - I happen to know a thing or two about the Civil War.

Bet you didn't realize that MOST of the Southerners who fought in that war never owned a slave, wouldn't own a slave and/or couldn't own a slave. It was about states' rights, not slavery.

And, believe me, I'm no bigot. One needs only to look at my choices in husbands to realize that little fact.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
62. Answer me this, since you are such a self proclaimed Civil War buff
If the Civil War was mostly about states rights, as so many Southern apologists claim, why, in each and every single pre-amble, preface, or first paragraph of the Southern states' declarations of seccession, it is slavery that is given pride of place, not "states' rights"? Why is such pride of place also given in the A of C? Why are so many references given to "our particular institution", in reference to slavery?

Sorry, but the whole "state's rights" meme is nothing more than a polite fig leaf added after the fact by the generations following the Civil War, in order to cast the South in a better light. Go back to the source documents, the documents of the government, the letters of the leaders, the papers of the time, and you will find again and again that indeed the true cause for the Southern treachery is that they wished to preserve slavery at all costs, including seccession.

You and your father aren't the only Civil War historians around.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #31
66. What about these?...
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
77. it was a joke. calm yourself, my friend. n/t
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BlakeB Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yeah, I've often wondered the same thing...
Of course I don't think displaying the Confederate Flag necessarily makes one a racist.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Well, yeah, I'm not even bringing up the racism.
I'm bringing up the political loyalties.
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The Pain Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. *waves his Nazi flag*
What? I'm of German heritage! Sure it was a bad point that most germans would want to forget, but I wanna wave it because I'm proud of my heritage! of... killing off other races for 10 years... and... beer?
I mean the southerners can do it! It only is the flag of a group breaking off from america so they could own slaves and keep the wealth in the hands of a few, damn what types of rules and regulations those yankees and their "Government" who wouldn't do every single last thing the south wanted in Congress like a smart man would!

(note I am not trying to mock germans, I am of german heritage. That was a moment that should be looked on with shame, exactly like the south during the civil war. Those flags belong in museums, not on flagpoles. Heritage Not hate? *laughs* A Heritage OF HATE!)



Also a quick, quasi related note.
In Virginia at least- It is illegal to cover more then 5% (or so) of your rear window from view (so the cop pulling you over can see if you are pulling a gun or not) people with the giant american flag hiding their entire back window are breaking the law, why aren't they being ticketed and forced to take it off?

And another note- The KKK was declared a Terrorist Organization in the late 1800s by congress I believe, since 911, how many of them have been arrested for being terrorists?
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BlakeB Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Wow...
Listen: you can't honestly compare the nazi flag with the confederate flag. If only because the nazi swastika still carries a heavy stigma. Much, much heavier than the confederate flag. By such logic shouldn't you consider the American flag attached to killing millions of Indians, or to having slaves for nearly 100 years before the abolishin of it in the northern states? Despite what you think, and despite the racist connotation that has been attached to the confederate flag, the civil war was hardly about slavery. Sure, slavery was an issue but that is not the reason the South attempted to leave the Union. Hell, Lincoln didn't even make the war "about" slavery until two years into the war, and even then he allowed certain northern slave states to remain in the Union to defeat the south.

Now don't confuse this reply with my supporting the confederacy, rather I'm just stating the way I see things.
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The Pain Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. it was a sarcastic comparison
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 04:06 AM by The Pain
Name another flag people would easily equate to something bad in the past.
We could use... Oh! How about japan where they tortured and killed millions of non japanese during World war 2! But not really that many people would get that gut same feeling as they do with the Nazi flag.

As for the Stigma in the Nazi flag, I am willing to bet if you waved the confederate flag in front of poor black farmers in the early 1900s, you'd get about the same one you would if you waved a nazi flag in front of a jewish family in europe.

And yes, we could very well use the american flag for those reasons.
Abe Lincoln once said "If I could Reunite the nation and keep slavery intact, I would" (or something incredibly close to that, I might be a word or two off)
And I did mention the economic reasons for the Civil war... actually in the exact same sentence when I speak of slavery!

But again, the point of my post was to get a point across, not an in depth lecture on the historical background of the Dixie flag and cause and effect leading up to the American Civil War.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Not about slavery? It was ALL about slavery.
I suggest you read some history other than "Gone With the Wind".
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. And I suggest you read something other than a second-grade
history book that drills things down into simple black and white.

It was NOT just about slavery. Most people who fought for the South did not and could not own slaves.

It was about agrarian interests in the South versus the industrialization of the North. It was about each state having the right to make laws for its people without the federal government butting in. It was about a LOT of things and slavery was a very minor point.

Think about it: black people in this country did not really - in the North and in the South - get equal rights until the 1960s' Civil Rights movement, a full 100 years after the Civil War. In fact, I dare say, that the South is LESS racist in many aspects because A.) We've dealt with this issue in a much more open and, regrettably, violent fashion than the North and B.) We simply have many more black people here. We actually are MORE integrated than most of the North and certainly the mid-West.

I'm not alleging you're ignorant - it's just that our history books in the country don't really delve into the real backbone of this most important war. I'm not ignoring the fact that slavery was an issue, but, for the thousands of men who fought for the Confederacy, it was about states' rights. Most of these guys didn't have two pennies to scratch together, much less own slaves.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. Bollocks.
"States Rights" my ass. What do you think those "states rights" they were fighting for were about? They were about the "right" to own slaves. The "agrarian interests" were the slave owners, and their "interests" were the slaves that made them wealthy.

That the poor whites were misled into believing they were fighting for "southern rights" or "southern honor" is irrelevant. As irrelevant as saying that most of the GI's in Iraq believe that they are fighting to protect us from "terrorists". The fact is that the poor whites of the south had no stake in the war. And, many resisted the call to arms by the aristocracy by refusing to fight, deserting, or outright armed resistance.

Read the writings of those southerners who actually engineered secession. The aristocratic landowners like James Hammond (Senator, Governor of South Carolina) for instance. Or, for an insider's view, "Mary Chesnut's Civil War".

The fact that the North failed to protect the freedmen after the war when the "moderates" in the Republican Party teamed up with southern Democrats to end reconstruction is the reason that "black people in this country did not get equal rights (which they still don't have) until the 1960's Civil Rights Movement". Also, the many writings of the southern press of the time before the war that used the same arguments that you're using. To dismiss it as an agrarian vs industrialization conflict is ignoring the fact that the agrarian economy of the south was impossible without slavery.

Not to mention that the still existent racism that plagues our country is a direct result of slavery and the civil war and it's sorry aftermath which returned the freed slaves to bondage.

I've lived in the South and saw raw racism in the '50s. My father was born and raised in Arkansas and was instilled with racism from birth. A quandary and a struggle for a man who later became a socialist when he was one of those "Okies" who fled poverty to California.



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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #39
55. Bull.

"It was NOT just about slavery. Most people who fought for the South did not and could not own slaves.".......

What does this have to do with anything? Compare it to tax-cuts: Most people in this country aren't getting tax-cuts yet they'll bury their thick f-cking skulls in the sand a parrot rethug talking points about how they want lower taxes.


>>A.) We've dealt with this issue in a much more open and, regrettably, violent fashion than the North and<<

WTF? The south is less racist because they institutionalized it, legalized it and did right in your face? ...More violent? I'll give you that..you contradict yourself.

>>>B.) We simply have many more black people here. We actually are MORE integrated than most of the North and certainly the mid-West.<<<

Double WTF?

I guess, by that measure, South Africa was less racist because they had more black folks???


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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
67. What about these?...
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. And I agree.
I don't want people on this thread to think that I support the racist aspect of the Confederacy, by the way, because I don't. Heck, I don't even own a replica of the Stars and Bars.

I just am bothered that so many people give that piece of cloth the power to disrupt hemogeny. Ignore it. It's really not worth it, but it really is a piece of history.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
47. The US flag could be considered a symbol of oppression
Over the native peoples of the Americas. The lies and destruction of native culture is an atrocity. It's all a matter of perspective.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
50. Hardly about slavery my ass.
No matter how you paint it, the foundation underlying all others WAS slavery. It was the key to the South's power and wealth.

Lincoln didn't make the war "about slavery" because it was such a divisive issue to begin with, but it WAS the underlying factor.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's called free speech.
You don't have to agree with it, but it's their right. Freedom rocks!
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I didn't say they didn't have the right to do so.
I'm only calling them traitors.

Rush Limbaugh does it every day. Geez! :)
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. But Rush is an idiot.
Maybe it means more to you than to them. A lot of us see it every day, and never give it a second thought. It's not like they're marching around waving it. At least, not around here. :shrug:
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
46. Treason is a crime.
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 09:36 AM by Laelth
Should we lock these people up for displaying the Confederate battle flag?

I know the oxy-windbag uses that term pretty regularly, but I don't think you're offering him up as a model of reasoned debate. Calling someone a traitor means you think they should be imprisoned.

BTW, Bush is a traitor. :)

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--spelling.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
75. I disagree with the traitior charge
Treason is a crime that you are charged with, indicted, tried and if found guilty of are then a traitor.

To the Civil War, the north thought southerners were traitors. Southerners thought they had every Constitutional right to secede and form their own nation.

So who was right?

Well at the end of the war General Lee and President Davis were indicted for treason.

General Lee took little notice of his indictment and just told the government when to show up for his trial.

President Davis however was in prison and immediately hired a high powered group of northern abolitionist lawyers to handle his defense. Money was no object as the case was payrolled by Cornelius Vanderbilt and Horace Greeley. His argument was a simple one and his law team thought they had a very good case.

Secession was legal. The southern states left the union by either a vote of their state legislatures or a vote of the people which is the same way they joined the union. Since governments derive their power from the consent of the governed, those votes withdrew the consent of the governed for those states who freely chose instead to set up their own Constitution and government.

Since the invasion of the occupation of the Confederacy was therefore an illegal invasion of a foreign country, would the USA kindly free the Confederacy's duly elected president, withdraw their troops so the nation could begin to put itself together from this illegal conquest.

It would be in court that the question would be answered by President Davis' trial. Were the Confederates traitors or not?

Then something funny happened.

The government asked for a delay. Then another delay, and another, and another. While Davis was imprisoned demanding his right to a "speedy and public trial," the government was denying his requests.

Eventually the government decided not to hold the trial at all. They just left Davis indicted. Eventually bail was offered and was paid by Greeley and Vanderbilt, and Davis was released but still demanded his trial to prove his innocence.

He never got it.

My complaint is that under these circumstances, how can anyone proclaim him guilty when he demanded a chance to prove his innocence and was denied the chance?

What if one of us were indicted by the local DA for child molestation, and it was all over the headlines. Your quote in the paper is that you look forward to your trial so you can vigorously prove these harges wrong. What if the government never puts you on trial? What if they just leave you indicted forever, and ten years later the DA talks about you as that well known child molestor?

Would any of us think that was not outrageous?

Yet we still call Davis a traitor. We shouldn't. If they thought they had the evidence to prove it, they would have tried him.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. I've always said that when you fly the battle flag what you're saying is
I associate with losers and I'm proud of it.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. I know some members of SOC and other re-enactors who fly the Dixie cross
Most of them either fly it as a representation of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, or as a commemoration of their ancestors. They've always appeared to me as decent people who aren't racist in the least. Many of them have children in the military, or in law enforcement. They consider themselves Americans, and it's fair to call them patriotic.

I also went to school with some children of Klansmen and other racist morons, and they were anything but decent. I'd never put those nimrods in the same category as the former group.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. I was good friends with the general of the SCV for this area
for many years.

A more decent, honest man you'd never meet. He was killed in a tragic car crash about a year ago while visiting his triplet grandkids.

Anyway, I agree with you completely. People in groups like the SCV organization are very different from people in the KKK. In this case, this guy hated the KKK types the worst because they were despoiling the symbols that he held dear. If there was ever a KKK presence in the area, he always had his group out to protest them.

Also, his son was in the military, and was part of the unit that surrounded Saddam's hiding place. His picture was on the front page of the paper pointing out the hiding place.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. No ...
"People who display the Confederate Flag" is not a description of a monolithic group, nor even of a specific flag. People display various Confederate flags for different reasons. I have several battle flags myself, one of which I sometimes display outside my apartment underneath the American flag during the 4 of July holidays. The flag I display is probably not what you associate with the "Confederate Flag," but it has some similarities, i.e. the St. Andrews Cross. (The flag I display was carried by a regiment of Pickett's Division, Longstreet's Corps, ANV at the battle of Gettysburg, which culminated on July 3, 1863 and which I always commemorate during the days prior to the July 4th holiday.) I have other battle flags you likely wouldn't recognize at all, such as the Bonnie Blue and the battle flag of the Confederate Irish brigade. I also have a reproduction of the 1st Kentucky Brigade, the Orphan Brigade, which almost no one recognizes.



I won't even start on the native American battle flags I posses.

I also effectively display a lot of "Confederate Flags" via the art that adorns my walls, most of which is Civil War art. My favorite painting is called _The Loneliness of Command_ and depicts Lt. General James Longstreet in his tent, alone, deep in thought. As an officer in the Confederate Army, naturally there is some variation of the Confederate flag near him in this painting.

What I perceive you to be talking about is people who display the commonly recognized Confederate Battle Flag, which is itself a problematic concept both to displayers and perceivers because no single battle flag existed, yet a common version of it has become prominent as some sort of "fuck you" statement to the government. The Confederate naval jack, which was slightly modified and adopted for use by the army on the battlefield and later became a common and obvious symbol of resistance to civil rights activists, is both a soldier's symbol and one, as mentioned, of resistance to federal control over states that refused to abide by civil rights laws. In that sense, I oppose display of the flag, and I oppose its display where it is recognized as a symbol of the KKK. (At the same time, in this context, I also opposed displays of the Christian flag and the US flag, both of which were just as commonly used by the Klan at the time they appropriated the CBF.)

In this response, I'm barely touching on the question of what the Confederate Flag actually is. On that subject I will only say that I know very few people who recognize it. As mentioned, the CBF is a soldier's flag that was later adopted by the KKK and other racist groups. The actual Confederate flag has three versions, which are rarely seen.

As for a symbol of traitors in its negative sense, I cannot and will not see any of the various Confederate flags that way because I see this as a hypocritical stance in its purest form. The American Revolutionaries were traitors, every bit as much as those who claimed a constitutional right to secession and formed the Confederate States of America. In fact, the American Revolutionaries were more clearly traitors than the secessionists of the 1860's because, at the time, the question of whether secession was constitutional was at the very least questionable. No one, not even the Revolutionaries themselves, had any question that signing the Declaration of Independence or firing on British troops was a treasonous act. The difference is that the Revolutionary cause was morally just. The Confederate cause, while potentially valid in legal and theoretical principle, was incredibly wrong morally.

Having said all that, most people I see who display the CBF are racist fucksticks who deserve no quarter. I don't think of them as traitors. I think of them as barely human scum.

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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
18. I have found it silly. Like having the union Jack out. But then-----
it takes all types to make up this crazy country. We most likely have 100,000 private military people running around each week end playing war games. One writer even bought his own tank.
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Bzzzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. My first thought is always...
racist. :shrug:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
43. Can I ask where you live?
Because, down here, I'm honest when I say I know a lot of people who fly the flag who don't have a racist bone in their body: it's more about the heritage of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers who fought in that war.

I don't fly the flag - don't own the flag - but I just don't let it bother me.
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Bzzzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
73. Indiana...
In the northern states a confederate flag typically refers to the KKK and racism.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. For many, it is a heritage issue more than a statement about
citizenship or loyalty.

Where I live, families split into blue and gray and there were many war dead on both sides. There was also a great deal of post-war poverty in the Southern states along with "occupation" which bred a defiance of and a contempt for the Union and for Yankees.

This is why many people display the flag, or so they have told me: to honor their dead and to show a certain regional independence. I think being defeated and impoverished in the past still stings and prods the Southerner to adopt a "tough" demeanor toward the victors.

Of course, my New York self threatened to steal a friend's Rebel flags tonight and burn them, but I know him well enough to joke about such a thing. Plus he was begging a kiss when I mentioned it ;)

He didn't get the kiss and I didn't steal the flag, and I will continue to tell him, "You lost. Get over it!"
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. I find it far more ODD
that progressive-minded individuals devote such an inordinate amount of time to philosophical handwringing over the possible implications of what piece of cloth their neighbor hangs on a wall or flies in their yard, when there are so many immediate, tangible, concrete issues and concerns which impact our daily lives regarding issues of racial inequity, constitutional law, and justice.

Then again, Im just one of those stupid bastards from the South.

-fl
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. I made a Confederate flag afghan JUST BECAUSE.......
.....everyone throws a hissy about it. And I display a Confederate Flag where ever and when ever I can just BECAUSE everyone throws a HISSY about it.

Having said all that, let me state that my family were all born and raised in the North as far back as the 1700's, so we had nothing to do with slaves.

Even so, that was then and this is now. Every race of people have at one time or another been in servitude or been slaves of another race. They aren't slaves now though so deal with it and get over it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. It's a piece of cloth or other Material to make it - nothing more to me nt
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
59. And the question is, why is it all about you?
Are you truly that self absorbed that you don't understand that for millions of people, spanning generations of history, such a flag is a symbol of hate, intolerance and bigotry? Are you that insensitive to others feelings?

This symbol may not mean a damn thing to you, but it means plenty to others viewing it. If I came into your house and saw this afghan displayed in the front room, more than likely I would turn and walk out, knowing that while I was welcome at your house, because my skin color was pale, ancestors of mine, relatives of mine weren't welcome at your house because their skin color is dark. Is this the image that you wish to project? Or again, do you just delight in being the kewl kid on the block, defying social norms with your precious little symbol of hate?

Why do you insist on this? Are you merely doing such to tweak peoples' sensibilities? Why not knit a Nazi flag then, just in order to make your Jewish, Roma, and gay neighbors feel "welcome". Why not run both of them up a flagpole outside your house so that you can tweak the sensibilities of your neighbors and the entire town? Or are you sensibly afraid of the consequences that such an action would bring back on you and your house?

If you are that tone deaf to the symbolism of these matters, then you need to talk about this with your African American neighbors and friends(do you have any AA friends? what are their feelings about this "piece of cloth"?) If, as I suspect, you are doing this as some sort of juvenile prank, rattling peoples' cages, then I would suggest that you stop. All you are doing is projecting hate and bigotry, and self labeling yourself as a person who is not worthy of respect or civlity. Or maybe you simply want to drive a certain group of people away from you, in that case you are being successful.
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Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. My point is.........
.....other segments of society do things and have things (items of various kinds) that bother me. BUT I deal with it rather than tell anyone that it hurts me or reminds me of the past. WHY?? I'm an American FIRST and NOT a .......American . We each need to deal with various issues and put them BEHIND US and get on with being AMERICANS. No, I am not trying to purposely hurt or alienate anyone. Rather, I'm trying to make the point of when or if we ever start living with the here and now instead of constantly revisiting the past. It's like scratching an open sore, the more we scratch at it the more infected it gets. That is my point.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. Try it with a Swastika "just BECAUSE everyone throws a hissy fit".
If you like the results you get now, you'll love that.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. Why stop there?
Why not make one that is a swastika?

That would really get the hissy fits going.

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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
56. That seems a waste of good time.
Why use your talents on such a thing?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
68. Now there's a cause I can really get behind.
:eyes:
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
24. It's a loser flag! My guess is they're proud of being losers!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. No. They're merely racists or fatheads.
Edited on Sat Mar-04-06 08:34 AM by Tierra_y_Libertad
We even see them here in ultra-blue western Washington. Usually adolescents playing at being tough guys.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. I grew up in the south
and have lived all over the US.

I firmly believe the confederate flag has no place other than a civil war re-enactment.

It is a free speech thing, but poor taste is a factor as well.

It was funny to see it fly (against regulations, from a abrams tank (IFOR) in the Balkans.) The crew was from the northeast or their accents were, just odd. Of course it doesn't mean a thing to serbs or albanians.
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DelawareValleyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
30. They are if they vote Republican. nt
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CarlSheeler4U Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
34. If your not careful with over-intellectualizing the issue it will never
achieve a degree of openness to whom your statements are directed.

There are several interesting anomalies in many Red states other than supporting slavery. Higher level of divorce, despite Christian values being one of them. When you are unhappy with what's in the mirror - most everyone else stops looking as good as you do.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
37. My beau friend is from the south.
Every single time I go to visit the family in Georgia I am just shocked when I see the flag flying. It's usually when we go to visit his elderly aunt in the rural parts. I am a dyed-in-the-wool Yankee and my jaw always hits the floor when I see it. I wouldn't call them "traitors" per se. They don't look at it the way we do. It's part of their "heritage" allegedly. I personally am offended by it and don't get it. The beau friend is just glad he's not a part of it. :shrug:
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
45. Freedom of speech cuts both ways.
This flag is proof of the power of the 1st Amendment in action. People who display it are not traitors. Never let it be said that the exercise of one of our most cherished freedoms (political speech) is cause to bring criminal charges.

I am disappointed to find that some here would label political speech treason. :(

-Laelth
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
69. Fly a flag that symbolize treachery, hate and bigotry
Don't be suprised at being called a traitor, racist, and a bigot.

It is your right to fly any flag you wish, this is guaranteed in the Constitution of the country that the South rebelled against. But it is also our right, under that same First Amendment to decry that flag as a symbol of hate, racism and treason. The people who fly that flag are putting their hatred and bigotry on display for all to see. We have every right to call them on it.

Will I bring a person up on charges, no, it is their right to fly that flag. But I have the right to call them on their racsim and bigotry in the paper, in public, and to avoid doing business with them and where they work.

My question is why do people proudly display this symbol of hatred and bigotry? Heritage? Not a heritage that I'm not proud of, full of hatred, bigotry and treachery,and I had ancestors who fought on both sides of that war. It certainly isn't a unifying symbol, it is a divisive one, used by domestic terrorists in the KKK and other organizations, along with Southern state governments to terrorize an entire group of people until this very day. So why fly the damn thing unless you agree with the underlying symbolism it represents?
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. I hear ya.
At the very least, displaying that flag shows a complete lack of sensitivity to millions of people who suffered under the institution of slavery and the millions who still suffer from the results of slavery. Some of the people who fly it are racists and bigots, no doubt.

But flying that flag is an act of political speech, and if we value the 1st Amendment, the right to fly that (or any other flag) must be preserved. It should not be a crime to fly that flag.

-Laelth
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
53. Traitors to what, exactly?
Flags as symbols are commonplace, but they don't symbolize the same thing to everyone.

I know that the confederate flag symbolizes different things to different people. So does the American flag.

The American flag is, to me, a symbol of patriarchy and nationalism. The confederate flag is a symbol of arrogance, greed, racism, and classism.

Who is a traitor to what, exactly, with their use of such symbols?

:shrug:
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
57. this is a pathetic attempt to stir people up.
and maybe throw in a few stereotypical insults as well.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
60. No, they're mostly just idiots that can't get their mind out of the 1800's
It's time to move on.

That is the flag of the loser.

The flag of the traitor

The flag of the racist

And the flag of the fucking stupid...

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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
61. How many of these flag post are we going to have?
They always are the same with the same posts, the same flames and the eventual lock-up by mods.... :spank:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Three or four a week, apparently.
Simple pleasures for simple minds, I guess.
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jarab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
70. At a progressive site, I think
it's totally inappropriate for us to pre-judge the intent of those who express themselves.
We just don't know in each case, and to lump them all together is a slam upon the group who choose this form of expression.
If I chose to express myself with this symbol, it wouldn't be wise for someone to attempt to disallow my speech.
Phelps' speech is OK; Confederate sympathizers not. Yeah! Sure! Which is to say, the right to make speech (per se) supporting homophobia is accepted, but that right to speak with purportedly implied racial undertones is not. Who weighs these two and comes up with this imbalance?
When we tire of slamming Old Glory at this site we might then place our sights upon that other "flag". The former continues.

...O...
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. I'm glad there were no mushy mouth "progressives" in the 60's......
I mean, it would totally be inappropriate for us to judge the KKK for expressing themselves.

It would be totally imappropriate to fight racism. Afterall, those racists are just expressing their hatred.


Give me a break. Sometimes you have to call it like it is.

It makes me sick that some of us have totally forgotten how to FIGHT!
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-04-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. How about the Gadsden?
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