If we (America) were invaded, could we be defeated?

[Jamison]

What are your thoughts?

I was debating this with someone who's kinda off the wall. This guy is very gung-ho for the war on terrorism and for pre-emptive strikes on nations that support terrorists. He claims if we do not do this that armies of millions of terrorists will invade the continental US and totally defeat us. I totally disagreed for the following reasons. Also, some here on DU think that if we were to go to war with Iran, or even China or Russia that their forces could defeat us on our turf.

1. We are VERY isolated from the rest of the world. Any invading force would have to travel many thousands of miles to get to us. The only nation to ever successfully invade our mainland was Great Britain, and keep in mind that they had the world's best navy at the time. Not even the Japanese were able to come close to invading our mainland during WW2. An invading force would have to travel far over land or sea, which they would be picked up on radar and destroyed by our Air Force and Navy.

2. We have the right to bear arms. If invaders were actually able to reach our borders and inflict damage on our military, we have a lot of private citizens who own guns and know how to use them. I would think the invaders would face an insurgency here that would make the one in Iraq look like child's play due to the number of guns we have here.
We have a lot of people in this country with a lot of guns who would be out fighting invaders to the death.

3. We will never be defeated for the same reason Napoleon and Hitler never defeated Russia, we have VERY cruel winters. I think if our military really got pinned down, and if they could hold out until winter and pull back into Wisconsin, Minnesota, or North Dakota for a final defense, we would win out. I could see invaders freezing to death and starving in great numbers just like Hitler's 6th Army did at Leningrad/Stalingrad if they had to fight in or around Minneapolis in winter.

I didn't add nukes to the equation here b/c I assume no one would be insane enough to use them.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. by a foreign or domestic evil? Can you clarify?

[Jamison]

4. I was thinking along the lines of a foreign invasion.

Chinese, Russians, etc.

[thunder35]

6. Too Cold in MN

[newyawker99]

39. Hi thunder35!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ClassWarrior]

2. Yeah, if we keep outsourcing defense to greedy corporations.

NGU.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. If we are defeated,

it will be by Bushco and his ilk, not by outside invaders. Frankly, I think most people who don't like the US basically want to be left alone and want the US and the megacorporations to get out of their countries.

[William769]

5. I believe parts of America could be occupied for a certain amount of time

But America being defeated? No way! No matter what anyone says when it comes right down to it, the American spirit can't be beaten.

[byronius]

7. The whole premise of your friend's argument is bizarre.

Millions of terrorists? Carried here in Trident-missile-submarine-proof ships supplied by whom? All of this is insane fear-mongering. You should question his grasp on reality. I've read stuff in Freeperville suggesting that if we do not surrender all civil rights to Bush immediately, every American city will suddenly be a smoking hole in the earth.

Ya know what? It's only insane until you substitute 'Bush' for 'terrorist'.

[MrPrax]

8. This invasion?

Would it be a liberating army that some Americans would join up or would it be an even bigger imperialist coalition?

Not really much of a scenario, as much as it is the plot to Red Dawn...

I think if our military really got pinned down, and if they could hold out until winter and pull back into Wisconsin, Minnesota, or North Dakota for a final defense, we would win out.

unless of course it was the Russians, who would have NO problem in a Wisconsin winter and could perhaps defeat any local high school football teams that fancy themselves minutemen.

[Pharaoh]

9. we would blow anything out of the water before

they even got close,

The US will collapse from within, we are in the downward spiral now...

[FormerRepublican]

10. WRT Bush, I think he IS insane enough to use nukes, and if he does, so...

...will anyone who wants to invade the US. IMO, Bush would strike first, then we would be invaded and nukes potentially used against us. The use of nukes has already been floated in talk about striking Iranian nuclear facilities. Once that particular cat is out of the bag, plan on living in a seriously irradiated world.

[Codeblue]

11. It all depends

With the country as divided as it is now, many people may welcome an invading force with open arms. Of course, that also depends on which particular invading force it is and what their plans for the country are after the war. If they plan on a full scale occupation, I think every citizen in the country would be out there trying to expel them from our turf. But if their intentions were entirely well-meaning (which is highly unlikely. When has that ever been the case?) then I think a good portion of the country would just sit back and let it unfold. I think the forces of China/Iran would easily defeat us there. But in our country? People fight a hell of a lot harder when it's their own homeland under fire.

[Earth_First]

12. It will be an inside job...

very similar to what is ocurring right now with the * misadministration.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. yup. it is at hand. unless we do something about it.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. "armies of millions of terrorists will invade the continental US"

Right. Are they swimming over?

"some here on DU think that if we were to go to war with Iran, or even China or Russia that their forces could defeat us on our turf."

Hmm... oddly I have never seen that opinion expressed here on DU, although it is a wide open forum so I am sure it is possible, and I am confident that you could back up that assertion with some evidence. Once again, are the Chinese and Russians swimming over here?

Perhaps you are confused with other opinions expressed for example by myself that we would get our hat handed to us if we got into a land war in asia with either russia or china or a proxy of russia or china that the russians or chinese were determined to defend. I don't think our troops have been seriously bloodied since vietnam, and really not since korea, not in any prolonged fashion. My guess is that once the veneer of technical superiority wears off, our volunteer/merc force will not be up to the serious dying that such a conflict would entail, despite all the false hollywood bravado.

[Jamison]

21. Reference this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x472218

See posts 12 and 16.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Well there you go.

Those posts are idiotic. This is a wide open forum, and people post stupid stuff. So how exactly are the russians, chinese, and 'millions of terrorists' going to get here with all of their stuff? Are they swimming? The whole concept is preposterous.

[patricia92243]

32. I guess they would swim over here the same way we swam over to Iraq. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Uh no.

You are joking right?

[Popol Vuh]

14. As a former Army Infantryman

As it stands right now. Nobody has a Navy capable of challenging our Navy, so that leaves using ships to transport armies to our shores out of the question.

By air? Well they would still have to contend with our Navy -plus- Air Forces and land air defenses. So that too is pretty much out of the question.

By land in a sneak attack over one or both of the borders? Well....for that to succeed it would have to be a sizable force (even with our current military situation), and for that to be accomplished it would be one of history's greatest intelligence coup. So that too isn't very likely at all.

Nope, the only way someone can reasonably threaten us is by small teams or indidvuals committing random terrorist acts such as you see in Israel -or- they'd have to be a major nuclear player.

Now on both of those issues the reality is this: Soviet Russia was dealt with the policy of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction) and the same still would hold true against any major nuclear power advisory. And with respect to the small random terrorists acts. Tell your friend that "fighting them over there" DOESN'T prevent them from coming over here to get some payback. On the contrary, rather it does more to provoke them than anything else. Ask him, "if someone bombed and shot-up his neighborhood and killed his family and friends, would it provoke him?"


*My Opinion*

[Gruenemann]

15. We've already been defeated.

Without an invasion. This is no longer the constitutional democratic republic of the United States of America, it's some madhouse of religous fanatic coporate statism. War on terra? We lost it the instant we let terra cow us into submission to the bushevik junta and their puppemasters, the House of Saud.

[stray cat]

16. It depends how many Americans would be willing to fight.

All Americans would need to fight and not just hired soldiers. As a country, we may be too soft to really rise up and fight back.

[Mr.Green93]

17. Mexico

will reclaim its lost lands and more.

[Ignacio Upton]

42. They're already doing that now

If you believe that groups like Aztlan and La Raza will gain from illegal immigration.

Note: I don't mean that to be xenophobic or offensive towards Mexican-American and Hispanic-Americans in general.

[upi402]

18. It has been, from BushCo

OBL couldn't have dreamed of this much deterioration of America's foundations.

an external state invasion would bring death to most life that exists.

[0rganism]

19. Ask your "friend" why Israel hasn't crumbled to "millions of terrorists"

If ever there was a country that's been a juicy target for terrorists, it's Israel. Israel has been attacked by terrorists since its inception, and outright invaded by combined armies of numerous states in the Middle East. These armies didn't have to cross any oceans or even run extended supply lines through the jungles of Central America, and they had at least tacit support from much of the local population. And they still couldn't defeat Israel.

This tiny chunk of land has held out for decades against the direct and intense pressures of neighboring states with many times its population, in one of the worst strategic configurations imagineable. If the Israelis can do it, why can't we? Does your "friend" have such little faith in our armed forces, that they can only invade hostile territory and not defend our own? Wow, what a sucker.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. but they had talent at the leadership position. Look at our White House.

Seriously. can these guy find their ass well enough to wipe after they shat on the constitution again?

[0rganism]

40. our poor leadership can defeat us with or without the terrorists

Seriously, there's no need to throw a million invading terrorists into the mix when the current high levels of administrative incompetence are sufficient to doom America on their own.

[newportdadde]

20. Depends if the enemy controlled the TeeeVeeeee.

Based on the reasons you mentioned I believe it would be extremely unlikely, however our country is currently very ripe for PR manipulation via TV. Imagine Cable and broadcast news trumpeting our new masters etc and you may have 1/3 of the country on board who knows :shrug:.

I'd say the much greater likely hood is a decay from within, a collapse of economic markets due to debt load, health care etc and a spiral downward of the American middle class and our standard of living.

[stillcool]

22. The more I learn the less I know...

but after Katrina, it appears that we have no national defense. Our forces are used by the corporations that run things, in the places they are needed. We the people are not a valuable enough commodity to warrant protection.

[izzybeans]

24. Best to stop pissing of the Canadiens and Mexican government then.

I suppose its possible given we have stretched our "Defenses" across the world in a consistent mode of "offensive" operations for a fairly long time. If our army was purely defensive and kept within national boarders no one could defeat it. But then again, if an army that large was kept on American soil in plane sight of plain ol' americans then they would be forced to reassessed their willingness to comply with that type of big government.

[Xenotime]

26. Yes. Because our govt would do nothing to stop them.

They would barter for more oil.

[kevinbgoode]

31. Or they would call it "God's wrath" and blame it on the

feminists and the "homosexuals".

[4_TN_TITANS]

27. Too many gun owners....

Hell, my wife and daughters are arguably better shots than I am, and my father has an impressive gun collection. There are too many families like mine where every single one of us could pick apart an invading force - even if all the men were killed.

Bad winters could go both ways in an invasion. It wouldn't be hard to shutdown supplies going into a defending army.

[Popol Vuh]

28. Don't forget to remind your friend

That in addition to our military and police forces, America is heavily armed with some 80,000,000 private gun owners owning some 300,000,000 to 500,000,000 guns.

That's a lot of people with a lot of guns -- I am one of 'em

[SeaBob]

29. Invaded

We have already been invaded by people who want to control the economy to favor a select few and dismantlke the Constitution and turn the rest of us into their slaves

[Hubert Flottz]

36. You've got that right!

We are being invaded by the international bankers, the IMF, World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, The Trilateralists and the PNAC! They want to not only bring America down but they plan to dominate and enslave the world's people. They are the producers and directors of The New World Order...

Their "Ownership Society," means that the "ruling class," wants to own the World and everything and everyone in it, like they once did, in the Dark Ages!

[redwitch]

33. sure would be embarrassing

considering how much money we spend on our military every year. About a brazilian more than any other nation on the planet.
of course, if they start by taking over our ports, our banking, our jobs,our...HEY, wait a minute! It's already started!

[Imajika]

34. Your friend...

"He claims if we do not do this that armies of millions of terrorists will invade the continental US and totally defeat us."

...is an idiot. At least when it comes to understanding military affairs, terrorist organizations, etc.

Terorrists do not even believe they can "invade" America. Many Muslims terror groups do believe that Islam can take over Europe through mass immigration and then by becoming ever more assertive once their numbers are significant enough, but terrorists haven't even the remotest chance of successfully invading any Western nation - even a tiny landlocked one. Yes, Europe may become Eurabia if the birth rate disparities continue, but no terrorist army will be invading anyone.

The goal of a terrorist organization is not to invade things, it is to achieve their objectives through terrifying people and governments into submission.

One thing we never have to fear is terrorist armies invading America (though I'm sure Bush wouldn't want to dissuade people from concerning themselves with the idea).

[mystikwarrior]

37. I wonder?

Could America withstand an invasion? We can't keep unarmed Mexicans from simply walking across the Rio Grande. How would we stop tanks?
A single invasion by one country would fail no matter what country that was. A planned operation by several would certainly result in our defeat. An alliance between China, North Korea and the Central/South American countries who are hating us more and more each day would work. Beijing makes a move on Taiwan. Pyongyang makes a move on Seoul. And a combined pincer assault by Venezuela, Colombia and Peru takes Panama.
It'a all downhill from there.

[Imajika]

38. Seriously laughing out loud....

"We can't keep unarmed Mexicans from simply walking across the Rio Grande."

That's because the US government doesn't consider unarmed Mexicans a threat. We don't try to stop them.

"How would we stop tanks?"

Incredibly easily. Those any administration would consider a threat.

"An alliance between China, North Korea and the Central/South American countries who are hating us more and more each day would work."

Hehehehe. Ya right. None of those countries can project power. None have the ability to even draw up plans to invade us. Period. End of story.

"Beijing makes a move on Taiwan."

Which we could likely stop with what we have in the region. Even if we couldn't, that wouldn't help anyone invade the US.

"Pyongyang makes a move on Seoul."

North Korea would lose that battle even with out the US assisting the South. South Korea has a first world army, North Korea doesn't. North Korea could kill a lot of people and take some territory, but they couldn't hold it nor could they even afford to. North Korea has zero chance of taking over the South.

"And a combined pincer assault by Venezuela, Colombia and Peru takes Panama."

This part is so ridiculously laughable that I nearly chocked on my chocolate milk. Venezuala, Colubmia and Peru combined couldn't defeat even the forces we could put into theater overnight.

You clearly just don't understand just how much better the US military is than anyone elses. We are the first of the first world military's. Venezuela, Columbia and Peru have a few small almost 1st world units - all trained by the United States ofcourse, but they do not have the means to project any of those forces nor keep them supplied. In all those countries, the best military units are for internal security, not for "pincer assaults" anywhere outside their own borders.

[Solon]

58. Actually, none of that would be necessary...

All we need is for China and Japan to call our loans, and boom, no more US economy, and no more US military either.

[Ignacio Upton]

41. No

One word: Nuclear warfare. No nation would try and invade an nuclear-armed country such as the United States. If, say a Chinese Naval fleet took Hawaii and was less than 100 miles from California and Alaska, then we would fire a bunch of nukes at them. That was actually one of the intents in creating the Manhattan Project; to create a weapon powerful enough to destroy and damage an invasion force. Also, we have a lot of gun owners, and the while we may laugh at the paranoid Turner Diary-reading McVeigh types, they will be unleashed like jack-rabbits onto any foreign power. We have millions of gun owners and enough right-wing nutjob domestic terrorists to make Zarqawi look like a two-bit player in Iraq.

[norml]

43. If all the other countries got together to invade us I doubt if we could

keep them or their weapons out.

[dysfunctional press]

44. invaded by who? and in what form?

we are pretty geographically isolated from much of the world- how would any country get troops here in enough numbers to win, and then control the insurgency that would follow?

in other words- no.

on edit- if the invasion was by aliens in "Independence Day" type ships- we'd be screwed.

[0007]

45. Maybe if they could give us low gas prices and honest leadership

there may not be a problem.

[x-g.o.p.er]

46. We can't be invaded...

Not that we're impervious to it just because we're the United States, but because no other country in the world can project power like the United States. The US is the only country that can send a massive amount of troops halfway around the world, supply them, communicate with them, and redeploy them. We are the combined arms king, with ground, naval, and air power working together to kick the shit out of anyone, anywhere, anytime. No one, and I mean no one, can hold a candle to us right now. Our navy would destroy an invading armada before it got within sniffing distance of the shore, and we would have air superiority within minutes, dooming the invading force if somehow, someway it got past the navy. And then, even if an invading army got a foothold, could you imagine them trying to pacify Queens, Brooklyn, or Manhattan? Between the street gangs and the Mafia, they wouldn't stand a chance.

China has a larger army, but they do not have the capability to invade Taiwan. Russia has a larger army, and airlift, but they don't have the money or resources to keep them supplied. They can't even handle the uprising in Chechnya. We are so far ahead of other nations technologically that to invade us would be signing their death warrant. North Korean pilots get about 10 hours of flight time a year. Depending on the airframe and whether or not a guy is an instructor, aircraft commander, or co-pilot, an American pilot gets about 300.

Now, 20 years from now, it might be a different story. And even then, I think it would have to be a coalition of many nations attacking simultaneously, with a strike at our communications system and major cities, which would cut the head off from the body and create a massive refugee situation. Make no mistake, countries took notes on New Orleans and Katrina, because it exposed the impotence of our government when communications are difficult and the hardship of the civilian populace is at the forefront.

Substitute a WMD for Katrina, then follow that up with an attack that takes out our satellites and communications coupled with a surprise invasion, and that's the scenario I see playing out, but not for at least a generation.

[kineneb]

47. Who would want to invade the US?

Think what they would get: a country with massive debts, a failing infrastructure, a variety of religous fundimentalist groups, a national leadership which is often ignored, deserts hotter than an oven and other areas prone to sub-zero winters. Geez, who would want to deal with that mess?

Who would bother, when they can just buy us? Rome fell from as much from the rot within as the Germanic "invaders".

"As for me not being fit to be Emperior, don't take it up with me, take it up with them."
-Claudius, indicating the large, hairy blond guys standing behind him (the Praetorian Guard). From the "I, Claudius" series.

[leesa]

48. Easily.

[hopeisaplace]

49. Yes. Just keep the CABLE TV going, and no one will notice

:sarcasm:

[screembloodymurder]

50. We have and we haven't even fired a

shot.

[Montagnard]

51. Never we would never surrender

we will fight until the last black and brown and sort of brown American and those with a good suntan are dead.

[Clara T]

52. Ever Been to Northern Idaho?

Who's We? Run for your Lives!!!!!!!!!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

53. Why did I suddenly start thinking of "Red Dawn"?

:rofl:

[lectrobyte]

59. WOLVERINES! AVENGE ME! AVENGE ME!

[genie_weenie]

54. HOLY COW everyone read this post!

DUers go out and play Fortress America (Milton Bradley 1986) It dealt with an invasion of the US by 3 powers which were: 1) The East Asian Commonwealth (yellow player), 2) The Central American Confederacy (blue player), 3) The Euro-Soviet Alliance (red player). But, the best thing is one of the Evil leaders on the game cover looked like Saddam! Total Truth!

http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/GameMaster.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_America

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fullimage/56809

[rpgamerd00d]

61. I own a copy of Fortress America. Saddam is on the cover.

It is why MB discontinued the game.

[genie_weenie]

63. Coolness.

owever, what did you think of the gameplay, I always found the sceniro played out the same again and again, which limited it's playability say versus Shogun.

[izzybeans]

55. Ironically freeptards understand the motivation for an insurgency

when occupied by a foreign army, just so long as its their backyard. Yet for them our bombs explode with bunnies and love in Iraq. The insurgency there is baffling them. All of the sudden defending a homeland against a foreign army is an act of a deranged lunatic.

[leftofthedial]

56. external army? probably not

but we've already been defeated within

the rotten corpse of capitalism has hollowed out America nad left it vulnerable to takeover from within by the bush crime family.

[BringEmOn]

57. If they attack during American Idol or Desperate Housewifes

[lectrobyte]

60. Invasion? Not necessary. Just defeat us on the economic front

and why worry with all that old-school military stuff. Our gravest danger is probably bankrupting ourselves with military spending.

[Bandit]

62. Think biological weapons

Yes America could be annihilated without a single soldier stepping on American soil..