Not scared of those Halliburton detention camps?

[Jackpine Radical]

Some people around here seem to think there is nothing to this whole business because they'd never manage to lock away everybody in America, or half the population, or whatever.

Sorry, folks. That ain't the way it works. They'll just be after the dissidents (you know--us "terraists."). They won't have to lock away everybody. 1 in 100 adults will do. That would be say 2 million people, about equivalent to what we have in our prisons right now.

I live in a small town of 60,000. If the 600 most politically active of us disappeared--hell, if just the 60 most active disappeared--it would not only decapitate the peaceniks, dissidents & Democratic leadership, it would chill the living shit out of everyone else in the community.

[bryant69]

1. You are probably right.

Doing it openly, though - could create an outrage. I mean that is a stalinist tactic, pure and simple. One has to assume that anybody the least bit political would wake up.

They could do it silently though - don't know if they could get away with that- but maybe.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Well, Stalinist tactics did work for Stalin.

Furthermore I think the same tactic would work here. First you characterize the desaperados as desperadoes (if you take my meaning), so at least a hard core 25 or 30% of the population will continue to support you whatever you do, and the rest will be too badly frightrened to do anything.

[bryant69]

21. You could be right - but I don't think so

If they tried us all as sabateurs or something, that might work.

This is an area where the racist implications of the war on terror work against them; the great thing about the cold war (on both sides of the fence) was that anybody could be a spy. It was a war of ideologies.

According to the right wing (such pundits and Cal Thomas or Ann Coulter) terrorists are all Muslim males - so rounding up hundreds for being suspected terrorists - well, there's no ground work for that.

Bryant

[babylonsister]

27. So what's the reason for detention camps? nt

[Arkansas Granny]

38. Supposedly to house illegal immigrants and to be used

as processing facilities in the event of a national emergency.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. Right. And who gets to declare a "national emergency"....

...so that you can be detained indefinitely because they "think" you have ties to terrorism?

[jberryhill]

69. The stated reason...

...is a sudden influx of immigrants.

When we pulled out of Saigon, we took in 135,000 Vietnamese immediately, and many more in following months and years.

Many of those Vietnamese refugees were housed at military bases which have since been closed.

Same thing will happen when we pull out of Iraq and/or invade Iran. It looks like planning for that influx to me, but I'm sure I'll be accused of Kool Aid drinking here.

[davekriss]

82. uhuh

$385 million to Halliburton to house Iraqi refugees. Shuuuuure. Was it cherry flavored?

[Lerkfish]

83. how is that going to work? we're going to transport refugees from Iran

precisely halfway around the world and put them up in prison camps?

That makes no sense.

If we anticipated refugees, we'd build the relocation camps closer to the area they're escaping from.

I won't accuse you of drinking koolaid, but I don't think you're applying logic.

[jberryhill]

87. Were you alive in 1975?

Or were you just in a coma, and didn't know what was going on?

Because that's EXACTLY what we did with tens of thousands of Vietnamese when we pulled out - we flew them here in C5's.

Vietnam is FARTHER away than Iraq, so you are saying.... what? We DIDN'T bring them in by the planeload and house them on military bases?

Gosh, it sure looked that way to me at the time. We've since CLOSED a lot of those bases, and we couldn't do it again today.

So what are you saying, "makes no sense". You are saying it made no sense to do that in 1975? Or are you saying it didn't happen?

See the people with the suitcases here:


Just one part of that evacuation "Operation Babylift" was the largest rescue effort in history. Amazing that nobody seems to remember what happens after a military deployment.

[Lerkfish]

93. hate to break it to you, I was born in 1958

I know about the C5's in vietnam. To clarify what I'm saying: I don't think it makes sense for THIS administration to do so. I've seen absolutely NO inclination to assist refugees in either Afghanistan or Iraq. Have you seen any shipping of refugees back to the states that I'm unaware of?
Oh, sure, they get shipped out to be tortured, but beyond that?

wake up and smell the fascism, pal. If you can't figure out why they want these camps HERE, then you ARE drinking the koolaid. No way in hell is halliburton going to get paid half a billion dollars to do a humanitarian effort.

keep your assumptions to yourself, thanks.

[jberryhill]

96. Sure it does....

I don't think it makes sense for THIS administration to do so

Seen the author of the Patriot Act lately?

It makes plenty of sense.

The same way it made sense to get the "right" Germans out of Germany, the "right" Iranians out of Iran, the "right" Cubans out of Cuba... etc., etc.

You are confusing the mass of "refugees" with the sizeable populations of "loyal supporters and hangers-on" who have, I assure you, already been promised a ticket out if we go.

It's not exactly a "humanitarian" thing, but it does involve a sudden influx of large numbers of people.

It happens (so says the child of a WWII bride).

keep your assumptions to yourself

Thank you, Bill O'Reilly.

[Lerkfish]

98. Sorry, don't get the reference, I never watch Bill O'reilly.

does he say that a lot? What other things does he say?

Regardless, I stand by what I'm saying. There is no reason for this administration to build detention camps to house Iraqi and afghani refugees.
If they are loyal "hangers on", there's no reason to put them in a prison when they come over.

we can agree to disagree.

also, keep up on that Fox viewership: I refuse to let that trash on in my house.

[jberryhill]

100. He tells those that disagree...

...to shut up, as per clips on crooksandliars etc.

The folks that were brought out of Vietnam were kept on military bases, sometimes for quite awhile, before they were relocated. You can call them "prisons" and "detention camps" all you want, but we don't have the same kind of facilities for dealing with a sudden influx of that type. It happens after every war, and the assumption that it won't happen after Iraq is inconsistent with what has happened EVERY time the US has gone to war - we end up with a sudden large immigrant influx.

Every single time.

[ifriar]

112. Like a fist in the gut...

Thanks Lerkfish, for putting it so succinctly, like a fist in the gut.
"If you can't figure out why they want these camps HERE, then you ARE drinking the koolaid. No way in hell is halliburton going to get paid half a billion dollars to do a humanitarian effort."

Like all things that are inherently true, you feel them in your bones, and you can't keep yourself from saying, "HOLY SH-T! THAT'S RIGHT!"

I guess it turns out I took the 'punch' instead of the koolaid. Thanks.

[Marie26]

107. Couple questions

I wasn't alive, actually. Why did so many people leave then? Was it because they would be persecuted by the new gov? Were they mostly refugees or were they higher-up supporters of the S. Vietnam regime? I think you've got a good point there about war refugees. You've said that it's basically guaranteed that there will be a huge influx of immigration after the Iraq War. Why is that? Will they be refugees from a specific ethnic group, or do you mean political supporters of the US? Should I stop asking questions? :) Thanks!

[noamnety]

118. It would be quite ironic

if BushCo evacuates people from halfway around the world and houses them, when he couldn't even arrange transportation or trailers for the folks in New Orleans.

With all those people still needing housing, it would make a hell of a lot more sense to me to use that money to reconstruct those people's houses than spend money on mythical people that might hypothetically need housing at some vague point in the future.

[davekriss]

80. Rex84 (eom)

[crikkett]

19. we already have secret arrests

in this war on terra.

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Not necessarily

Remember Hitler and the Jews. Lots of Germans didn't know it happened because Hitler controlled the media. If it isn't on the teevee it doesn't happen right?

[bryant69]

77. That argument requires one to believe that the Bush Administration

has Stalin/Nazi like control over the news media. Which is hard to believe in my opinion.

I'm not saying the news media is perfect; far from it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Lerkfish]

99. they spent 1.6 billion dollars, on the books, to control the media

what they spent or did off the books, we'll never know.

[tatertop]

2. I agree. 60 out of every 60,000 would be more than enough

[teryang]

3. If 6 dissidents dissappeared in any community it would spark...

...terror. Gitmo and Abu Graid really are targeting the American market to condition them to abandon humanitarian principles and live in fear.

[SmokingJacket]

72. Four dissidents have been arrested in my town....

http://www.ithaca.edu/ithacan/articles/0601/26/news/0sentencin.htm

Six months in prison for spilling their own blood at an army recruiting center. I could see a fine, even community service... but prison???

Clearly the stiff sentencing is a warning to others.

[jberryhill]

78. Does Anyone Remember the POINT of Civil Disobedience?

I've seen this one in a few threads as well.

The entire point of civil disobedience is to do something illegal to bring attention to an injustice. This wasn't some "secret detention" for being a dissident. This was going into a recruiting center to pour blood.

This quote from the story really knocks me for a loop:

They said though their blood pouring was normally illegal, in this case it was lawful civil disobedience because of U.S. foreign policy.

Lawful civil disobedience? I'm going to hope that the reporter misunderstood what was being said, because someone obviously doesn't understand the point of civil disobedience.

I have to believe that waaaay too many folks have either forgotten or completely misunderstand the dynamic of non-violent resistance and WHY and HOW it works.

I'll tell you how it DOESN'T work. It DOESN'T work by getting a pat on the head and an "okay, you've made your point, now go home" from the authority one is protesting. It works by attracting increasing levels of suppression, and corresponding sympathy for a just cause. It uses the dynamic of suppression against itself.

If there is a belief here that 90% of Americans won't care if the other 10% are locked up for political dissent, then what is it that you want to accomplish? Locking up the 90% instead?

However, given the raw fact that most Americans don't support the president, "dissent" in this context is SUPPORTING the Bush Administration.

[SmokingJacket]

103. My point is that the punishment does not fit the crime...

Yes, certainly the point of civil disobedience is to deliberately break the law and accept the punishment. (I don't actually agree with those who want to claim that the blood-pouring was "legal"; IMHO it's vandalism and would in a sane world be punished as such.)

*MY* point here is that the harsh punishment here was handed out as a message to all those who might think of doing similar dissenting acts -- "Think again, bleeding-heart liberal." If it was abortion foes pouring their blood, would the punishment be the same? I don't think so. The sentencing was politically influenced.

There will be more of this in the future.

PS I don't understand this statement: "If there is a belief here that 90% of Americans won't care if the other 10% are locked up for political dissent, then what is it that you want to accomplish? Locking up the 90% instead?" Explain?

I think people will care about 10% of the population being locked up (though I doubt it could ever get that high). But I also think that the 90% will feel powerless to do anything about it.

[AnneD]

86. This case gives us insite into what the Gov will do...

they will demonize the opposition then jail them. They have already started this equating DEM's to terrorists. And what about Civil Disobedience. They are shutting down many avenue of protest and discourse. I think it may come down to sit downs, strikes and massive protests. So many of us are living hand to mouth but it is something that will have to be done. Otherwise we are notheing but sheeple.

[jberryhill]

92. "they will demonize the opposition then jail them"

Yes.

That's the point.

The "opposition" here is already a majority of Americans, but, whatever...

[crikkett]

125. and see how it didn't spark terror?

Get ready, we're next.

[Pavulon]

4. Nope

Sounds like a great way to quarantine people with a contagious disease. The BOP employees god knows how many tens of thousands to police its current population. there is no way to quickly double that population without major upheaval. Just dont see this as plausible.

I live in the real world. In 90% of the country americans would object violently to arbitrary arrests of their neighbors and fellow church members over politics. In most of America Democrats and Republicans do business together and live together, just don't discuss politic out of respect.

Obviously small towns and mid size cities are different than say NYC but here people rely on each other to get the work done.

[babylonsister]

8. So you think the detention camps are being built to quarantine

people? Then why doesn't the contract mention that? I must say, I'm a bit more skeptical.


http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/topix/index.js...

snip//

The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities.

The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts.

ICE is one of three agencies that make up the Border and Transportation Security (BTS) Directorate of the DHS. The mission of the BTS Directorate is to secure the nation's air, land and sea borders. ICE, the largest investigative arm of the DHS, is responsible for identifying and shutting down vulnerabilities in the nation's border, economic, transportation and infrastructure security.

snip//

[BR_Parkway]

15. So you don't lock them up for political dissent - Bird Flu comes to

mind and with all the hype over Bird Flu - your neighbors would be thankful that the authorities came and took you away before they caught something from you.

[Pavulon]

20. Like SARS in canada? (NT)

[FearofFutility]

131. The line that distresses me the most

is "to support the rapid development of new programs". WHAT does THAT mean?!

[crispini]

9. Yep, but a lot of people would rather read and post "fear porn"

rather than considering the reality of the situation.

[dogday]

10. You live in a fantasy world if you

think that this can't happen and people will stand by and say it was for security. Those people were terrorist you know. American Terrorist who don't believe in the administration, it makes them a terrorist.

I remember reading an article last year where the police went through people's homes, several of them, they made them go outside in the early morning hours while they search their homes. They were looking for a guy who allegedly shot a cop and that gave them the right to go into all of these people's homes without subpoena. No, can't happen in this country, think again....

[Pavulon]

17. Warrant is what you are looking for

If they have probable cause to believe a crime is happening they can search your home, without a warrant. Hiding from arrest on murder is a crime. Or if you are on their property (public housing, airport) they can also search.

It (mass detention) has happened here. I do not think mass political detention is possible.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crikkett]

24. Japanese internment camps refresh your memory?

"I do not think mass political detention is possible."
???????
:shrug:

[Pavulon]

36. Yeah

That was what I alluded to in the post. Do you really think the federal government is going to begin detaining democrats on us soil in concentration camps?

It was not political detention. It was wrong and the possibility of it reoccurring is unlikely short of an open war where a national or religious group would be detained. Even that is, imho, very unlikely.

[Marie26]

46. What's more likely

(though still HIGHLY improbable) is detention facilities for legal immigrants. Immigrants are more vulnerable anyway, and have less rights than US citizens. If the US starts declaring suspected terrorists within the US as "enemy combatants," they could also argue that the Constitutional rights don't apply to these "terrorists" and start rounding up Muslim immigrants based on their secret NSA evidence. That's a scenario that many Americans would (sadly) support. And for all the hub-bub about these Halliburton camps, most people seem focused on how it could affect US (liberals), and no one has really focused on how it could affect Muslim immigrants. Because, maybe, we don't care so much about that. Political detention is difficult; racial detention is easy and has been done before in the US.

[Pavulon]

48. Again

You are correct. I could see situations where people were detained on religious grounds.
Hopefully that will never happened.

[Usrename]

119. If you were picked up tonight, who would complain?

Don't you get it? Who would they complain to? Who would they complain to? I can't believe that you are not aware that many human beings are in EXACTLY that situation right now. It is already happening, but to others, so it's no big deal. Well guess what sucker, it won't be a big deal when it happens to you either. You will just become the "other".

This is a real (not rhetorical) question: If you were arrested, who would complain, and who would they complain to?

[dogday]

34. When did probable cause ever become

a reason to search someone's home? I know it did for an automobile, I know Patriot act authorizes for sneak and peek. But like you said A warrant was needed for that whole street. If they did not know which house and had no proof, yet went house to house, made the residents stand outside in their nightclothes while they search with no cause. If they are searching everyone, then they don't know anything do they, and have no cause to do such...

But that's ok with you, maybe if your lucky a criminal will run into your neighborhood and you can see what it feels like....

[Pavulon]

39. If I

Get into a car chase and crash my car in your front yard and run into your home or yard the police will pursue me. If they cant find me and close the block they can search homes to look for a suspect.

I would bet this is voluntary, if they came to my door asking to look for a murder suspect I would let them look. If a homeowner refused the police would usually get a warrant.

Again if the police come to my door saying someone escaped from the federal prison up the road and they want to check to make sure he is not there they are welcome to.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

49. Yep - "hot pursuit" exception.

Very easy to abuse.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1monster]

41. Not possible here? Then I guess the internment of all those of Japanese

descent, whether recent or not, new citizens or citizens for more than a generation, were not detained in the United States during World War II.

And that was an order signed by Franklin Roosevelt, one of the most democratic presidents of this county to that date...

Most people are not leaders. They need someone to follow and a belief that they are not alone. If you kill or detain all of the leaders, the people will not rise up against tyranny.

Moral courage and the strenghth of one's convictions are difficult to maintain in the face of a gun or of losing everything. Dictators know that and bank on it.

And so many of our leaders are dead or held up for ridicule to the point that their credibility has been damaged.

[Pavulon]

44. See upstream post for respnse(nt)

[davekriss]

84. "I do not think mass political detention is possible"

So what then do you call internment of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent during WWII? A trip to Disneyland?

[jberryhill]

91. What Do I Call It?

I call it a historical wrong, and everyone recognizes it as one.

We had slavery too. I doubt it's coming back in fashion.

Now, what do YOU call Operation Babylift?

I call it an immigration emergency.

[davekriss]

117. Yes, it is historically wrong...

...but it warrants pointing out that Pavulon was factually wrong when saying he/she did not think mass political detention was possible. It's possible. It happened. And this century, too.

However, I acknowledge that you are simply saying that you think a political detention of the sort some suspect for the Haliburton contingency is not possible, which would not be exactly the same. However, another Reichstag fire, a few more manly blowhards like Coulter and Rush and Bush and Rumsfeld, some more Gonzo, Gonzo, and Yoo legalism, and it wouldn't surprise me that the "other programs" referred to in the detention center deal means the "temporary" housing of dissidents deemed an aid and comfort to the enemy by our Fuhrur (is it Eurasia or Eastasia this week?).

[teryang]

132. Police can't summarily determine probable cause to enter a home

They still have to get a warrant. There are exceptions such as hot pursuit and other "exigencies." The general rule is that they have to have an impartial magistrate make the determination.

[jberryhill]

74. But MOST PEOPLE don't agree with the administration....

What gets me in this discussion, and the perfectly fine existing thread on the subject, is this notion that "people who don't like Bush" consists of some sort of secret society.

If you disapprove of this administration, you are squarely in the MAJORITY.

When enough people have had it, you aren't going to pull something like this off. When JFK deployed the regular Army to get six, count 'em, six, African American students to school in Little Rock, it was a big deal. Something like this would cause civil unrest on a far broader scale. You can't have 200 simultaneous Little Rock's going on, and you aren't going to find an Army to do it.

The Japanese internment episode serves more as a "lesson learned" thing here, since it is nearly universally seen as having been exactly the sort of thing that we don't do here.

[Mme. Defarge]

79. I agree...

They'd have to put barbed wire and guard towers around the entire greater Portland (OR) area, since we are known to them as "little Beirut." It would likely be noticed.

[AnneD]

89. But you know what scares me.....

is that a majority of Russians didn't like their government...but how long did their government stay in power.

[WinkyDink]

16. And how would you propose to transport contagious people?

Bio-hazard vans?

[Pavulon]

18. Ambulance?

[dogday]

25. They will get the same loving care as the

folks in NO recieved. Best that money can buy right?

[Pavulon]

42. SARS

see canada's response. They detained people and they got pissed off. But the virus was contained.
Are you going on a tangent or can we stay on topic here?

[dogday]

81. Please may I have another

We are on a tangent, and we can talk about whatever we want to. :spank:

[Protagoras]

50. 90% would object violently?

Please don't take this wrong but...have you read much history or done any sociological studies? Read much about group psychology? 90% of the people do nothing...they cower in fear. It's the 10% that object and rebel. And it's that same 10% who are most in danger. The Sheeple don't get imprisoned...no need. They live in a prison of their own already.

[dogday]

51. I bet the Jewish People had wished they

had paid more attention to the signs of what was happening to them in Germany. Didn't it just start off first with having to wear the Star Of David on their clothes? Does not seem like too big a deal right? Give em an inch, and they will always take a mile....

How many I wonder believed it could never happen to them? How many realized and then it was too late to get away with it. Remember it was a movement that grew a little at a time and strengthen and then moved like a disease throughout Europe.

Now we can sit and watch our rights being dissolved in front of us and know something is up or we can start to gather as much information as we can to arm ourselves.

[yurbud]

66. Read first 26 pages of Elie Weisel's NIGHT, Nazis gradually cranked up

repression. Each ratchet up, people would briefly freak out, then get used to it.

Weisel was trying to talk his dad out of sewing the star on his jacket and his dad said, "What's the big deal? It's not like it's going to KILL me."

[yurbud]

67. what percentage of Russians under Stalin were rounded up?

Whatever that number was, it seemed pretty effective at scaring the shit out of people.

[yurbud]

73. Russian Gulag stats 0.97% of population at peak.

So at its peak, it was just under one percent.

That would be a lot of people here.

Soviet Population

January 1937: 162,500,000*
January 1939: 168,524,000*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

Numbers in Gulag

In 1931–32, the Gulag had approximately 200,000 prisoners in the camps; in 1935 — approximately 800,000 in camps and 300,000 in colonies (annual averages), and in 1939 about 1.3 millions in camps and 350,000 in colonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#History

[mirandapriestly]

115. That sounds exactly like what is happening now.nt

[yurbud]

123. yeah, that's why this stuff freaked me out pretty early and everyone

else thought I was nuts.

Talk radio and right wing pundits like Ann Coulter have been just this side of inciting violence, and the GOP seemed to be closing the gap between their shills rhetoric and their actual actions--then the shills ratcheted it up a notch.

[Ignis]

130. A slow boil

And thus the frog in the pot thinks, "The water's only ONE degree hotter now, that won't kill me...."

[jberryhill]

64. have you read much history?

Yes. Try reading a history of the Phillipines... or Germany for that matter.

Marcos was driven out of power simply by the force of will of enough people who weren't going to take it any more.

Ditto the Berlin wall.

[upi402]

52. the charges would NOT BE POLITICS

and people can get diseases through, say, whole foods (hippy food) etc.
Yes, targetted.
Have you not been paying attention to the steady drive towards fascism?

[Occulus]

57. No, wait... who says it has to be obvious?

They could come to, say, where I work and arrest me on "terrorism" charges. They could come in the middle of the night, when edveryone is sleeping, with trumped-up drug charges and "find" something on my record that "warrants further investigation".

I think some people don't understand- they don't have to ask our permission.

In an age where you can be arrested for the charity you give money to (who, unbeknownst to you, is some sort of terrorist front- or suspected of being one), who's to stop them? The law? The law says they can do precisely these sorts of things, and the law doesn't know the charges are trumped-up, because the arbiters of the laws- judges- aren't allowed to see some forms of evidence today.

There really isn't anything anymore to say "they" couldn't arrest thousands of people and detain them for an indefinite length of time on charges of "terrorism". Last I knew, the AG defines what "terrorism" is, per the Patriot Act.

I'm not saying any of this will happen- I'm only saying it is dangerous to believe it can't.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. "90% of the country americans would object violently to.....

...arbitrary arrests"??

Look around you...hundreds of people are arrested daily and nobody notices one way or the other. At least 40-45% of Americans consider themselves to be Conservatives, and they're not going to look twice when their Liberal neighbor is hauled away in the middle of the night.

Maybe you need to do a little reading about Nazi Germany and how Nazi and non-Nazi neighbors seemed to get along without any real overt conflicts. When someone in the neighborhood disappeared, they did nothing to speak out about it.

[lostnfound]

62. They won't announce on TV that it was for politics

They'll say it was "ecoterrorists" or "violent extremists" or a "drug ring" or they won't say much at all.

The ones that "need to get the message", their fellow activists, will get it.


In "Night", by Elie Wiesel, the foreign-born citizens were rounded up first. Gossip said that they were taken to another town, rebuilt their lives, and were happy now. One man returned, a friend of Elie's, and told everyone he could about how they had been taken to a place and forced to dig graves and shot -- men, women, babies. He was shot in the leg and played dead and escaped. Returned to warn all of the others.

No one believed him.

For a year, no one believed him, and life went on as before. After a year, it happened, quickly. Rounded up their leaders. Imposed curfews. Prohibited travel. One new rule at a time, every three days. While the residents were discussing what should be done or could be done, the next rule was imposed.

They'll put stories on TV about dangerous groups using the Internet to recruit and organize "against America", and they'll have some acts of 'agent provocateurs' to whip up fear and prove how dangerous they are.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Just the thought of the camps has had a chilling effect

on activists in our area. Could be that for now, that is all that is wanted. If there is a big demonstration nation wide, I could see where people would start being locked up. If they do it publicly, it will be with a 'terrorist' spin so that the sheeple won't mind. However, if it starts happening, I see a certain percentage of people who will hide out and start an underground movement, just as was done in WWII.

[Marie26]

7. But honestly, the thing that is the most chilling

to political activism is not the camps themselves, but the fear of camps. And who's stoking the fear of being locked away in Halliburton camps? I'm not afraid of some theorized camps that may or may not exist. Now if I get rounded up, yeah, I'd be afraid. But that seems like such a distant, hypothetical event that it's not something I'd let affect me. There's so many other real threats to worry about.

[Pavulon]

12. Bingo

There are many real threats to civil liberties. This is not one of them. If I were an illegal immigrant I would be a bit more concerned.

[dogday]

88. Ok, now wear this Gold Star on your clothing

No big thing, really, it just shows who you are. No big deal honestly. Nothing sinister about it, nothing going to happen to you.

Why do we get all worked up about a possible hypothetical situation you ask?

I just don't know, really I just don't know :wtf:

[Marie26]

105. Because this exactly the same situation.

Right. Trying to follow your hypo here - you seem to be saying this is like one of those "small" infringement on liberty which are followed by big ones. To follow your hypothetical - what actually are we being asked to give up here? Are they somehow supressing liberals with this contract, are we giving up some sort of right, does this affect us in any way at all? No. I'm worried about the REAL violations of civil liberties - wiretapping, random searches, etc. Those are the small, accumulating erosion of our rights. This is nothing but a distraction. I've already posted downthread that there's a very plausible, legal, reason for these facilities, so I won't repeat that.

People are saying that the value of detention camps isn't the camps themselves, but the fear they instilled in the population. So people became afraid to speak out about the leader's policies. OK then. So who's spreading fear that dissidents are about to be rounded up & sent to detention camps? Not Halliburton, not Bush, not the Republicans. It's Democrats, on sites like this one, creating more hysteria and fear. I believe there are plenty of real things to fear about this Administration, we don't need to make up fake ones. And stories like this hurt our cause in two ways: First, it discredits progressives as nutty, and makes it easier for Americans to ignore our real points. Second, it distracts attention away from all the real civil liberties violations that are happening NOW. Maybe we should fight the devil that does exist first, rather than worrying & speculating on possible future events that probably will not happen at all.

It's kind of interesting how the "Halliburton concentration camp" story has gone from rumor to established fact without needing any new evidence at all. If there's some evidence that comes out & proves that these are somehow intended for liberals, I'll be howling about it too. But right now, that evidence does not exist. And I suspect it is because that theory is not true.

[dogday]

109. If you see no problems, then you are fine?

My post was a true post, that is how it started did it not? Don't like history, I can't help that.

I reserve the right to look beyond what they want me to know and find out what really is. You say I am worried about something that is essentially an "Urban Legend", except that it has happened many times in many different countries in the past, so I know this is a true possibility.

I too am worried about erosion of civil rights because the erosion of civil liberties is not far behind. You give them an inch and they will take the mile. Just how far will they go in the name of security and 9-11? How much will we have to give up?

Right now someone could call me a terrorist, throw me in jail without benefit of Habeas Corpus, for an indefinite time and I am an American. We say oh, that can't happen in America. Well it is happening in America. Are they terrorist? Well we don't know, they can't have a trial or lawyer, so I guess I will just have to take my government's word for it. And they have been so honest with us.... Now there is a warm fuzzy feeling....

[Marie26]

110. So let's worry about that

Habeas Corpus, enemy combatants, NSA spying - these are problems. ICE detention camps - may or may not be a problem. (I tend to believe not). Why not expend time & energy working on the problems that do exist, rather than worrying on ones that may not? I know history, and I understood your example. This is in no way comparative. The Gold Stars was something the government was doing NOW to infringe people's liberty. But in my post, I pointed out that this contract does nothing now to infringe our liberties or change our lives in any way, people just believe it might in the future. The equivalent hypothetical would be if someone started saying that the government might start forcing people to wear stars; it could be true (Germany), it could be false (everywhere else). This fear is not something that has happened; and it's something that most probably will not happen. I don't like being told to be afraid, by Bush or anyone else. Americans need courage to change this country, not fear.

[dogday]

111. I say to look beyond the present is not fear

but intelligence.

If you see actions that parallel a particular time in history, and knowing that history repeats itself, you should prepare yourself with information, not fear. This has never been about fear, but about looking at all possible alternatives to the actions of this administration. They say they are for this and they might just be, or they might not be... I don't trust them, many of us don't. Maybe that is more what this is about - trust not fear....

[Jose Diablo]

122. Why order certain people wear a star

when you have a computer system to track them?

[Harald Ragnarsson]

127. ICE= slang for kill

ICE camps = U been ICED.

That is a news release from Halliburton in the first post, saying they received a $385 Million contract to build detention centers. This is not a rumor. Here is the link to their news release on their website:

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html

While it does speak of "immigration emergencies", people seem to glide right over this part:

The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs.

OR TO SUPPORT THE RAPID DEVELOPMENT OF NEW "PROGRAMS".

People need to quit giving this government the benefit of the doubt. Just look at the last 5 years. Things are really going to begin to steamroll now, I believe.

edit: Only $385 Million, not Billion. Pocket Change.

[Marie26]

129. Or, sometimes, "Immigration & Customs Enforcement" nt

[babylonsister]

11. And a DHS Secret Service Division has also been established,

perhaps to police said camps?


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&si ...
Sec. 3056A. Powers, authorities, and duties of United States Secret Service Uniformed Division

(a) There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the `United States Secret Service Uniformed Division'. Subject to the supervision of the Secretary of Homeland Security, the United States Secret Service Uniformed Division shall perform such duties as the Director, United States Secret Service, may prescribe in connection with the protection of the following:

(snip)

(B) make arrests without warrant for any offense against the United States committed in their presence, or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if they have reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such felony

[Marie26]

13. That's always existed

The Secret Service Uniformed Division is not a new unit. It's existed since the 1800's & adopted it's official name in 1977. As I understand it, they're a lot like the Capitol Police, and are there to enforce security & protect lesser officials at the White House. It does seem that the Patriot Act has expanded their duties, though.

http://www.secretservice.gov/ud.shtml

[babylonsister]

22. But now new and improved under DHS:

Corrected link:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109lxkwK&refer=&r_n=hr333.109&item=&sel=TOC_208072&

Also:

Section 602 (Thanks to DUer Clara T)

Section 602 states that Americans can be arrested for interfering with “National Special Security Events”. You can even be arrested for conspiring to interfere with an “NSSE”. In other words, an American citizen can be arrested for calling some friends and scheduling an unauthorized meeting with a CongressCritter.

Our Congress critters have proposed the creation of a Ministry of Fatherland Defense federal police force. Under H.R. 3199 (the so-called “USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005?)—created to “extend and modify authorities needed to combat terrorism, and for other purposes,”

Here's the whole thing:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/R?cp109:FLD010:@1 (hr333)

[Marie26]

32. Is that the real name?

The "Ministry of Fatherland Defense"? I can't believe they'd actually call it that; they usually try to hide the facism. Sorry, but the links don't work. I've posted Thomas links before, but they evaporate once you leave the page. If it's not too much trouble, could you post the law numbers? I'll try to look at that. Thanks.

[babylonsister]

45. No, not the real name; Clara T's attempt at humor.

I took the info from another thread, but law numbers are HR 3199, Section 602. This link worked the first time I read it. :shrug:

[dogday]

29. There are now Homeland Security County groups

Authority of the Homeland Security to have authority in your county....

[Harald Ragnarsson]

128. This also from the same Halliburton News Release

It IS a news release, surely the whole thing can be posted, can't it? No copyright on news releases, surely?

This article also says Halliburton has the contract to provide services for the enforcement personnel that run the camps.

Also, look how bad they screwed up in Iraq, serving troops rotten food etc, can you imagine what hellholes these camps are going to be?

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html

2006 Press Releases
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: January 24, 2006

KBR AWARDED U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CONTINGENCY SUPPORT PROJECT FOR EMERGENCY SUPPORT SERVICES

ARLINGTON, Virginia – KBR announced today that its Government and Infrastructure division has been awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract to support the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facilities in the event of an emergency. KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton (NYSE:HAL).

With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five-year term, consisting of a one-year based period and four one-year options, the competitively awarded contract will be executed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005.

“We are especially gratified to be awarded this contract because it builds on our extremely strong track record in the arena of emergency operations support,” said Bruce Stanski, executive vice president, KBR Government and Infrastructure. “We look forward to continuing the good work we have been doing to support our customer whenever and wherever we are needed.”

The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities.

The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts.

ICE was established in March 2003 as the largest investigative arm of the Department of Homeland Security. ICE is comprised of four integrated divisions that form a 21st century law enforcement agency with broad responsibilities for a number of key homeland security priorities.

KBR is a global engineering, construction, technology and services company. Whether designing an LNG facility, serving as a defense industry contractor, or providing small capital construction, KBR delivers world-class service and performance. KBR employs more than 60,000 people in 43 countries around the world.

Halliburton, founded in 1919, is one of the world's largest providers of products and services to the petroleum and energy industries. The company serves its customers with a broad range of products and services through its Energy Services Group and KBR. Visit the company's World Wide Web site at www.halliburton.com.

[rpgamerd00d]

14. Totally disagree. Americans wont stand by and let dissidents get....

... locked up on US Soil.

[Joey Liberal]

28. Bullshit - it could happen

Bush is following in the steps of Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot.

[crikkett]

30. It did happen. In the 20s communists were locked up for sedition.

[rpgamerd00d]

37. Comparing the 20s and 40s Civil Rights era to today is laughable.

[crikkett]

124. tell that to the people who lived through it and say they've seen it

all before.

Thank you very much.

[Joey Liberal]

26. They'll come for DUers first

Then they will go after people from Moveon.org, BuzzFlash, Huffington Post, Landover Baptist Church, Bartcop, the ACLU, environmental groups like the Sierra Club, Rev. Lowery, and anyone else that doesn't agree with Herr Boosh and his pathetic cartel.

[earth mom]

85. Gotta admit that thought crossed my mind...

and probably many others around here.

[AnneD]

97. Don't forget....

the Quakers......

[rpgamerd00d]

31. Please change subject - add "tinfoil hat alert"

Thanks

[babylonsister]

33. I repeat: what's the purpose of the detention camps?

Because you choose to hide your head in the sand doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

40. Just answer the question, Claire

[Marie26]

43. Illegal aliens

I actually did a little "research" on this when this story swept DU, and asked a relative who's a Border Patrol agent about it. Right now, there is a big lack of detention facilities for illegal aliens who are caught. When the Border Patrol catches people from Mexico, they can just ship them right back. But when they catch someone from, say, Russia, they can't deport them without an official deportation hearing. But there's no detention facilities to hold them. So, they are given a court date to appear, and are simply released. Except the majority of the time, no one shows up for the deportation hearing. The lack of detention facilities is a valid immigration problem, and a source of frustration for Border Patrol agents. These could simply be intended to hold illegal immigrants before a deportation hearing. Now, that doesn't explain why Halliburton got the contract for so much $$$, but the usual Bush policy of no-bid contracts for cronies can explain that as well.

[upi402]

55. deport them

no problem
we have buses

[Marie26]

59. Doesn't work that way

We can't just deport them as soon as they're picked up. Non-Mexican immigrants get a "deportation hearing," scheduled for some time in the future, where a immigration judge officially orders them deported. So there's a gap in time from when people are caught to when they're finally deported. But since we've got nowhere to put them during that time, people are allowed to go free w/a promise to appear for the hearing. It's like posting bail, but the stakes are much lower if you fail to appear. W/o detention facilities during that gap in time, people can just dissappear.

The solution of "we have buses" is sort of simplistic as well. Are we going to bus people back to Russia, Bolivia, China? No - people are flown back; which means they still have to wait to schedule the flights. There is an inevitable waiting period until non-Mexican illegal aliens are deported. So detention facilities are always needed to process illegal immigrants; and there's apparantly not enough facilities right now. There's no need to really read a whole lot into it (you can, though, if you want.) These facilities could be exactly what they say they are - detention facilities for illegal aliens.

[upi402]

63. change how it works, don't build detention centers

at a huge cost and that can house draft dodgers, disloyal americans, or whatever this cabal schemes and contrives.

<edit to add>
other coutries make you pay as well as get you out. even if you merely overstay your visa.

[Marie26]

68. Don't build detention centers?

Millions of people cross the borders illegally every year. There are already lots of ICE detention facilities in the US to hold people. W/O detention centers, there would be no place to process, detain, or deport illegal aliens. So I guess the Border Patrol would just have to let all of them go. Which means there's no point to having a Border Patrol at all; so we'd be leaving our borders completely unenforced. And if the borders are unenforced, then drug smugglers or even terrorists could enter the country completely unopposed. As long as federal law regulates who can legally enter the US, they're going to need a way to deal with people who illegally enter. So the US is always going to need detention facilities to process illegal immigrants. That's just a fact. So there is a valid reason to build more detention facilities.

Here's a link about this issue: "Border Patrol catches, then releases, illegals" http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-02-02-border-cover_x.htm

[upi402]

53. so... what IS the terrorist count? 15-150? 1,500?

Have you not been paying attention to the steady push toward fascism here in Bushland?
How much EXTRA detention is required?
We already incarcerate more than anybody here.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. I bet if it does happen

They'll get illegal immigrants, Arabs and Quakers first. Than go for other peace groups. Remember the White Rose Society! They've already tried to get the Arabs. Try to find the film "UnConstitutional." They talk about how months after 9/11 lots of Arabic families were kidnapped for no reason at all except being Arabic. :mad:

[EVDebs]

61. TIA, RFIDs and 'background checks' are the latest tools used on dissenters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2025401

[yurbud]

65. I hope they have tennis courts. I'd like to work on my game.

[upi402]

71. you rip a phonebook in half ONE PAGE AT A TIME

This is another camel's nose.
Where in the hell do they put mass protesters after a stolen 2006 or 2008 stolen election?

Free speech zones?

I could be wrong. BUT the only time I was wrong about these crooks is when I bought Colin Powell's bullshit at the UN.
And do you think the Republicans in the Democratic party, DINOs, will do a damn thing about it?
LOL
:rofl:

[yurbud]

75. my guess is that '06 and '08 are already done deals--but I'd like to be

wrong.

[upi402]

76. Half full; detention centers needed after Fitz's convictions

lead to encarceration af all crooked Republicans and made members.

[thinkingwoman]

90. What's the point of being scared?

Let's say you are completely correct...what does being scared accomplish?

[upi402]

95. who is scared? maybe someone that has experienced unjust incarceration

could chime in here and tell us if it's scary?

[thinkingwoman]

101. The OP's subject line

asked who isn't scared of these new facilities.

My response was directly to that.

Your response misses my point entirely. Was that accidental?

[upi402]

102. wondering if any folks here have experienced it

It may well be very much worthy of fear. I don't know.
I do know that it is easy to poo-poo something until you have experienced it.
Conversely, things like broken bones are not so bad, once experienced.
It's the anticipation that is bad.

[thinkingwoman]

104. Again, what is the point of being scared?

How does that change anything?

I'm not poo-pooing any experience. I've had more than my share of horrific ones frankly, which may be why I work against living life in fear.

Being afraid doesn't offer any protection whatsoever. It doesn't prepare you. It doesn't change anything.

[Jackpine Radical]

106. I guess I don't think of being scared as a rational option--

something you decide to do or not do. The sympathetic nervous system doesn't seem to work that way.

[thinkingwoman]

108. sure it does

Initial fear may be instinctual, but we have the ability to control everything past that. Being scared is an ongoing state, a choice people make.

The same energy could be put to better use, or simply not expended at all.

[mdmc]

94. welcome to the drug war, expanded

herb ain't as dangerous as political dissent. Hope the rat worm dems stand up for us!

[iconoclastNYC]

113. Does anyone think the Democratic leadership would risk being seen

AS WEAK ON TERROR?

I'M AFRAID.

[RagAss]

114. When they come for me I'll be killed in my doorway....

weapon in hand and a "Fuck You" from my dying lips.....

[Road Scholar]

116. I agree. nt

[Stephanie]

120. they kept over a thousand for three days during the Rep convention in NYC

Those were PRE-EMPTIVE arrests. Most were released after three days with no charges. They kept them locked up until the festivities were over. In a BUS DEPOT that was rented by the RNC for that purpose. We called it Guananamo on the Hudson. NYCLU has a lawsuit over this.

I think another reason for the centers is Katrina. The next time, they want those people locked up, not just wandering around on their own recognisance, like Americans used to be able to do.

[JNelson6563]

121. You're on the money JR

It only takes a few "examples" to send the message loud and clear. ;-)

[nolabels]

126. If you think you are wrong then don't do whatever you are doing otherwise>

It isn't worth doing...... btw can I tell you that I am really really really scared :hide:

Seriously though, lets just double dare them :rofl:

[stickdog]

133. Yep. (nt)