Just A Little Shotgun Information

[ThomWV]

I'm only writing this because of all the absolutely inaccurate things I've seen posted in the last day and a half.

Although I haven't read ever thread and not a single news account about the shooting - because its just not worth the time - I'm not absolutely sure on the gage and shot used but from what I've seen it seems to have been a 28 Gage gun using 7 1/2 shot.

First the gun. Gages for shotguns are a measure of the barrel diameter. The larger the gage number the smaller the hole in the barrel. That is because of how Gage was determined in years past. Simply put you take lead balls the diameter of the barrel and see how many it would take to weight a pound. If he barrel is relatively large it might only take 12 of then, hence a 12-Gage shotgun. If the barrel is smaller in diameter it might take 16, or 20 or 28 - which are standard gages. The 28 Gage is not the smallest of the standard gages, that distinction belongs to the .410, which is actually the diameter, in inches, of the barrel.

So the gun Cheney was using, a 28 Gage, is actually one of the lightest weight guns he might have been using.

Shot sizes are also numeric and with an inverse relationship between shot size number and physical shot size. Number 4 shot is larger than number 6 shot, 0 is larger than 4, 00 (the infamous 'Double-'ought') is the largest and happens to be about the same size as a 22 bullet. The number 7 and a half shot that Cheney was using is way down on the small end and in fact would be the smallest size you'd generally use for bird hunting. Many birds have feathers dense enough that a number 7 would bounce off at anything other than very close range.

So the shot size used by Cheney was relatively small.

I understand the inadvertent target was about 90 feet away. OK, that's 30 yards. This would be just about the maximum distance that number 7 shot would be effective on any small animal - like a quail. At that distance its hard to imagine that #7 shot would penetrate even a moderately heavy shooting jacket, but it may have been too hot to wear one. 28-Gage guns do have one thing going for them though. For reasons known to no-one it is about the best grouping Gage there is. Its because the small caliber and low power of the rounds causes less shot deformation of course, its just not well articulated anywhere. The shot remaining round means it flys straight and also give the stuff its maximum range, which is about 40 yards. That means that the shot pattern from a 28 gage will be tight and that is not a good thing if you happen to be the one getting hit.

There you go folks, not saying anything good bad or ugly, just what the gun was and what it was not. It was a little gun shooting small shot without much power and shooting at the outside of its range.

[stepnw1f]

1. Whick Means He Was Less Than 30 ft. Away

Thanks.

[ThomWV]

4. Oh, I Don't Know .....

At 90 feet a bunch of the shot would penetrate your skin, but a lot more would probably bounce off a moderately heavy shirt - and sting like holy hell when they did. They would penetrate just about anywhere on your face, would probably make it all the way through an earlobe - but that would be about the extent of it.

At 30 feet one of the things would do serious damage to you - real serious damage. The pattern would still be just a couple of inches around, maybe 6~8, and even a half oz of shot at that range would be real real bad for a person.

[jobycom]

2. Thanks. nt

[Avalux]

3. It was chilly & windy that day, and it was near dark.

I live in South Texas and he would have been wearing a jacket. Thanks for the info - you've helped to confirm my belief that Cheney was a lot closer than 30 yards. :hi:

[madokie]

11. much closer, more than likely 30 feet or so.

we never had a 28 gauge, but we had 12, 16 and 410 gauge. What they are trying to tell me is bullshit.

[burrowowl]

14. Cheney said today that

the sun was behind the lawyers back making him hard to see. Wouldn't quail be even harder to see? Why did Cheney fire?

[Avalux]

17. Not supposed to hunt at that time of day for that reason.

The land is flat and when the sun gets low on the horizon it is hard to see. I have no explanation, other than Cheney's either a complete idiot or he was drunk.

[Ilsa]

15. Absolutely. The front had come in on Friday and it was

cold and blustery. We had some hard freezes (22F- 27F) for that weekend just slightly north of that area, maybe 100 miles as the crow flies. Any 78 year old man would have been dressed warmly for that weather.

[Ksec]

5. Have they ever said what the choke was on that 28?

I dont buy the distance. Theres no way the shot would be that concentrated from that distance, even if the gun was full choke.

[ThomWV]

7. Almost All of those Bird Guns Are Modified

Some of them shoot full chokes of course but the thing is with a 28 guage you don't need to choke them at all to hold a pattern. They naturally shoot tight as hell because they don't deform shot.

[TomInTib]

9. Actually ThomWV, in South Texas we use open or imp/cyl...

no cover, open spaces. You gotta get off quick. Even with canned birds (they wii just go to cover in a blink)

DeadEye's shot was spreading rapidly.

See my reply below.

[Ilsa]

18. Do you think those were canned birds?

I know Cheney isn't opposed to "hunting" canned birds, as he in in PA, but I was under the impression that a south texas ranch wouldn't have need for such a thing and it would be considered blasphemous. Seems like all my friends always had plenty of quail and dove to hunt along the coastal plains where I grew up.

[TomInTib]

21. They had to be canned...

it was cold and windy.

They were "hunting" out of a car.

The Armstrong Ranch has asphalt roads.

They "drove up" on a "covey" the dogs had "pointed".

Shooting on a horizon plane because the birds were clipped.

I know, I have been there.


Keep in mind that, even tho the region is blanketed in quail, Cheney is not going to be tromping (that's a Texas word) thru the scrub looking for birds. It was cold as hell.
They were shooting caged birds.

[Ilsa]

24. Okay. I'll buy that. I hadn't heard any good explanation

until you said this. Thanks. What pricks. All of them.

[TomInTib]

6. Well put, but....

it is becoming increasingly obvious the the distance was far less than 90 feet.

The spread of the shot string was around 18 inches. With an open choke (which one would be using in that terrain) that pattern would occur at 15-17 yards.

Shooting high brass the velocity is 1295 fps.

The dude got drilled.

I've been there, unfortunately.

[stepnw1f]

8. That's What I Was Told Today

less than 30 ft.

[Up2Late]

10. The question I have is, who makes a 28 Gage? This is the first time...

...I've ever heard of 28 Gage. I read one article that told the name of the Manufacturer, and it sounded French or at least, not American Made.

And one unrelated question: I have a full box of 20 Gage shells (Federal, I think) that I've had since 1981. They still look brand new.

Do you think they would still be good, or could using them be dangerous to use?

[XOKCowboy]

12. Cheney's was made in Italy.

I forget the name of the maker but it's a custom made very expensive firearm.

[XOKCowboy]

13. Google to the rescue... It was a Perazzi 28 ga NT

[Up2Late]

16. Now THAT should be the REAL story here! The Vice-President...

...Of the United States of America, uses an ITALIAN Shot Gun!

That's rather un-American of him, I'd say. :mad:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. So, how close did Whittington have to be to have at least one....

...pellet penetrate his clothing, skin, underlying musculature, ribcage, and lodge in the muscle of his heart?

So, how close did Whittington have to be hit by approximately 100 pellets?

Sorry, but there's more to this story than we've heard to date.

[libertypirate]

23. How many pellets in the average 28 gauge shell?

According to this: I have no reason to doubt the source
http://www.chuckhawks.com/410bore.htm
...
The 2 1/2 inch game loads carry 1/2 ounce of shot in sizes 4, 6, and 7 1/2. With #7 1/2 shot this amounts to about 175 pellets per shell.
...


410 is the next gauge smaller but same size shot. About 350 pellets per load, reloading is a pretty exacting kind of a thing this number might be off but say within 10 pellets.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=X28H7&bn=1&use=6


Game & Field Loads
1 OZ #7-1/2 SHOT

Bullet image Product Symbol: X28H7

Shell Length: 2-3/4
Velocity (in.): 1205
Powder Dram Equiv: Max
Shot Size: 7-1/2


Now we just need a pattern of the shot when it hit the target...

[libertypirate]

20. One other note 'barrel length'

Unlike rifles shotguns usually have barrels for different game/usage. The barrel length controls the spread at a given distance.

The spread pattern at 30 yards of long barrel will be tighter then that of a shorter barrel.

I don't know what the setup for quail is in a shot gun.

[tom22]

22. My question is this:

He clearly was taking a ground shot. Not a bird on the wing, but one that was coming to roost. Where I come from this is not a sporting shot. You don't shoot at birds on the ground because it is too easy a shot and because it is dangerous. Is there any real dispute about this?